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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've read a lot on the instinct variants and sometimes the sp descriptions are opposite of each other (I've read about sp 4's being "dauntless," but also that they prefer the comforts of home; some sp's aren't materialistic at all and want to be very independent whereas some sp's are somewhat materialistic and don't think that much about independence, etc.)

I wonder if this has anything to do with being a 4w3 vs. a 4w5. I read that sp 5's can be the opposite of materialistic and can be frugal and try to not depend on other people. Could this carry over to 4w5? I'm a 4w3 and I relate most to descriptions of being materialistic (at least when stressed/upset), needing a comfortable environment to live in, liking routine, not being a risk-taker, etc. Though I tend to be good in a crisis, which is the one thing about the "Dauntless" description that fits me. I do worry about my mother dying and me having to take over her estate, which would be an sp issue, but I do not *wish* independence -- only interdependence. I have a strong sx secondary, though, so maybe that's why I always want a few close people with me?

Any insights or personal experiences would be appreciated!
 

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I posted some other examples on the other instinct variant thread, @unico. Here I was all set on being a sx/sp vs sp/sx and then orangeappled posted that stuff about self-pres fours and now I'm confused.

What I can say-

In the general Riso-Hudson instinct descriptions I am sx/sp.
In the four Riso-Hudson instinct descriptions I'm sort of both sx/sp but I feel like they describe me only when I'm really unhealthy. I relate more to their five instinct descriptions.

In the Naranjo descriptions I would say I am sp/sx. And then what @OrangeAppled says here I relate to very well:

I find there's an over-emphasis on "practicality" for sp types that ends up sounding materialistic (which ANY type can be, IMO; it just depends on the reasons). "Security" is also a supposed sp related drive I don't really relate to as a 4.

At least in a 4 (& probably several other enneatypes), the sp instinct as dominant can be experienced more as a need to be self-sufficient, to not depend on others' for physical needs, and to be in control of how & when they are met. Creating environments that are personal sanctuaries or anticipating your own needs become an extension of this drive for control over own your survival & to provide for yourself.

I also think there can be a feeling of threat from others - like others literally are threatening your survival. This is why sp-dom tend to be some of the most introverted & can be independent, loner types, IMO.

As an sx-second, I can be intensely drawn to individuals, but I'll simultaneously have this feeling that they can un-do me. It's like they can become a distraction for me & my own survival.
So I'm confused. One thing I read in Riso Hudson material before was that sp= quiet version of type, sx=intense version of type, so=friendly version of type. I'm more quiet with bouts of intensity than the other way around.

It would make sense to me that a 4w3 would be more materially focused than a 4w5.
 

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I am very frugal...I even make my own laundry soap. I am not materialistic. My future home will be a cabin in the forest...simple living. :)
I used to do things like that, but then I got lazy. (Although I do clean with vinegar.) I for sure have my cabin in the forest fantasies. My favorite books as a kid were the little house in the prairie books. I loved the idea of building everything yourself, growing everything yourself, being completely self-sufficient like that. And living out in the middle of nature with no other people around, animals everywhere. It sounded pretty ideal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I've also wanted to live a very "natural" lifestyle, partly to not take advantage of animals any more than necessary. I'd love to be self-sufficient, but in a town with other people who did bartering with me or something. I wouldn't want to be all alone or with only my family, but I went to college in a rural town and liked it there.
 

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Well I've always interpreted spness as self-sufficiency. I don't know if I'm ready enough to live alone, but I'm not afraid of doing it because I know I will sort everything out by my own even if I'm not expertise in anything. I refuse help and advice almost all the time. This is selfish for me to admit, but if I really need something and I feel I will not get it by myself, well, maybe I will be able to ask for it. I don't want to be overwhelmed with people serving me. I have even this feeling with people that are supposed to serve you, for example a waitress. I want to do my things in my way without any interruption. In some way I want to control everything. That's why I was wondering if this feeling was striking me as five behavior and I in fact considered myself an E5 for almost a year.

I can be picky with people worrying about my problems too. I don't want to be a burden, it's true. But, I can flip the coin totally and I can become really needy. Asking (crying) for some help, but much more for some ear to listen to me. I can be really demandant. I refuse what they give without asking to me, because in some way is free. xD
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well I've always interpreted spness as self-sufficiency. I don't know if I'm ready enough to live alone, but I'm not afraid of doing it because I know I will sort everything out by my own even if I'm not expertise in anything. I refuse help and advice almost all the time. This is selfish for me to admit, but if I really need something and I feel I will not get it by myself, well, maybe I will be able to ask for it. I don't want to be overwhelmed with people serving me. I have even this feeling with people that are supposed to serve you, for example a waitress. I want to do my things in my way without any interruption. In some way I want to control everything. That's why I was wondering if this feeling was striking me as five behavior and I in fact considered myself an E5 for almost a year.

I can be picky with people worrying about my problems too. I don't want to be a burden, it's true. But, I can flip the coin totally and I can become really needy. Asking (crying) for some help, but much more for some ear to listen to me. I can be really demandant. I refuse what they give without asking to me, because in some way is free. xD
Hmm... I don't really consider myself self-sufficient. I would like to be more self-sufficient, though. And I feel guilty and embarrassed when asking people for most things. For me it's more the focus on material aspects of life and having them either reflect me on a deep level or calm my anxieties.
 

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Hmm... I don't really consider myself self-sufficient. I would like to be more self-sufficient, though. And I feel guilty and embarrassed when asking people for most things. For me it's more the focus on material aspects of life and having them either reflect me on a deep level or calm my anxieties.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the word 'self-sufficiency'. I consider myself self-sufficient because I refuse any kind of help. For example, my father wants to give me some money to buy something I even need and I feel really pissed off and I unwillingly accept the less he offers me (and I always bring the rest back) The less, the better haha Another example, I asked gently my mom not to wake me up for university this semester and if I get late, well it's my fault. Do not worry a lot about my welfare

I do not deny I can be materialistic too. I see it as a way to release negative feelings. I want pretty clothes and beautiful environments too, but I'll go for them instead of asking for them.
 

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the word 'self-sufficiency'. I consider myself self-sufficient because I refuse any kind of help. For example, my father wants to give me some money to buy something I even need and I feel really pissed off and I unwillingly accept the less he offers me (and I always bring the rest back) The less, the better haha Another example, I asked gently my mom not to wake me up for university this semester and if I get late, well it's my fault. Do not worry a lot about my welfare

I do not deny I can be materialistic too. I see it as a way to release negative feelings. I want pretty clothes and beautiful environments too, but I'll go for them instead of asking for them.
This hits the nail on the head for me.

I think @unico, we are using "materialistic" differently, but don't necessarily mean different attitudes. I love comfort & luxury & can have a preoccupation with aesthetics, but not at the expense of spiritual or intellectual interests. I also feel my motivation is a sort of control over how I feel via my environment & my physical needs. I will turn to these things to feel soothed emotionally & I don't like relying on someone else for that feeling (I will fear they cannot meet it well or that I'm a burden). I hate asking for help because of this, & I hate feeling dependent on someone else.

I don't feel motivated to have a LOT of stuff to feel secure, just to feel I am able to provide ENOUGH for myself. Security is not the word.... or maybe not in the way it usually implies. I like to be secure in my ability to meet my own needs/wants. I don't want a stable life in the suburbs with a big savings account & a home security system. You see what I mean? I suspect many 4s don't seek such "security" in their lives.

I am not frugal nor someone who is particularly down-to-earth, but I can feel bogged down by too much though - I tend to eliminate things if it begins to feel like it demands too much time/energy to care for. However, I like nice things & to feel free to provide myself with what I want/need. I hate being uncomfortable or unable to indulge ever. I'd love a small, but beautifully decorated apartment filled with amazing clothes & a fridge with just enough high quality & delicious food for a few days. I'd like just enough to feel indulged, but not so much as to require a lot of maintenance or to feel tied down. As such, I am a "work to live" person, not a "work to hoard" person :tongue:.

The status connotations of "materialistic" don't ring true for me either. It's really about my own enjoyment or needs. The downside of this may be selfishness, which may be related to 5 "stinginess" (although that manifests mostly in terms of mental/emotional energy & space). I am highly aware of others' needs too, and can be very generous in aiding them to meet them, but I resent demands or expectations which feel like a threat to my needs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
This hits the nail on the head for me.

I think @unico, we are using "materialistic" differently, but don't necessarily mean different attitudes. I love comfort & luxury & can have a preoccupation with aesthetics, but not at the expense of spiritual or intellectual interests. I also feel my motivation is a sort of control over how I feel via my environment & my physical needs. I will turn to these things to feel soothed emotionally & I don't like relying on someone else for that feeling (I will fear they cannot meet it well or that I'm a burden). I hate asking for help because of this, & I hate feeling dependent on someone else.

I don't feel motivated to have a LOT of stuff to feel secure, just to feel I am able to provide ENOUGH for myself. Security is not the word.... or maybe not in the way it usually implies. I like to be secure in my ability to meet my own needs/wants. I don't want a stable life in the suburbs with a big savings account & a home security system. You see what I mean? I suspect many 4s don't seek such "security" in their lives.

I am not frugal nor someone who is particularly down-to-earth, but I can feel bogged down by too much though - I tend to eliminate things if it begins to feel like it demands too much time/energy to care for. However, I like nice things & to feel free to provide myself with what I want/need. I hate being uncomfortable or unable to indulge ever. I'd love a small, but beautifully decorated apartment filled with amazing clothes & a fridge with just enough high quality & delicious food for a few days. I'd like just enough to feel indulged, but not so much as to require a lot of maintenance or to feel tied down. As such, I am a "work to live" person, not a "work to hoard" person :tongue:.

The status connotations of "materialistic" don't ring true for me either. It's really about my own enjoyment or needs. The downside of this may be selfishness, which may be related to 5 "stinginess" (although that manifests mostly in terms of mental/emotional energy & space). I am highly aware of others' needs too, and can be very generous in aiding them to meet them, but I resent demands or expectations which feel like a threat to my needs.
Ah, I relate to more of your description here:) I am not as materialistic as some people I know, but more than I would like. I would like to be a person who is very frugal because it would make me feel more "secure." I think my desire to always feel financially secure is related to the fact that is that my parents were always afraid of not having enough money to get by, even when that was not a real threat. I could always feel their stress.
 

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I reached the conclusion I am a sp/sx 4w5 (aided by the insights of a sx/sp 4w5). What I find, for myself, is that it makes me seem like a relatively unemotional four. I think that my five wing really brings its self-preservation attitudes into play and encourages the detachment and analysis of my emotions for the sake of my health. When I get to my lowest emotionally, there is always this part of me that steps in and says, "Now let's take a look at this situation. You are being kind of ridiculous. How about we pause and think about this for awhile before we proceed, figure out some better solutions..." I can get very philosophical about my personal experience and it kind of rings the soppy sentiment and emotion out of me and then I find myself a sort of damp towel that I can't help but acknowledge is certain to dry. For this reason, I've been suicidal but never made a serious attempt; I've toyed with self-harm but then stopped; I've experimented with drugs, drinking too much, but never for a protracted amount of time. I just always come to a point where this shut off valve is triggered and I can't endanger myself any more, something within me refuses.

I relate to this, his philosophies/comments expressed here very well.
 

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4 here, sp/sx. I can be materialistic, as I love pretty things. Pretty clothes, lovely surroundings, etc. But I consider that one of my weaknesses. I think materialism is a negative thing and try to be less so. To be completely self-sufficient from other people would be nice but I've accepted recently, that's not completely realistic. I still desire human interaction, support from others, etc. So I need to accept it and stop fantasizing about living completely out of touch with society, alone in nature, or at least with very few people. Simplicity is nice, but moderation is best and most realistic.
 
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