Disney MBTI

Thank you @mistakenforstranger for those in the grip links! I'll have to check those out more when I have free time. Sorry I'm lagging a bit, I've been busy!

I rewatched the beginning of the movie, and you make very good points here, as well. I can see the case for ENFJ now too.

I know with my ExFP friend, she values her culture/heritage and sees it as part of her identity (which is how I thought I saw it mainfesting in Moana), but there's also a few things that she doesn't personally agree with and will not partake in whatsoever (one thinks of Ariel), whereas Moana almost became a "model" of her culture, adapting herself to all their customs. As I was saying with Elsa, and how she doesn't really think of her country/kingdom, and prefers her own individual isolation, Moana never loses her connection with her people, or thinking of their needs in the long-run (Fe-Ni). Moana is conflicting because on the one hand she says in the song, "I wish I could be the perfect daughter," which sounds Fe-ish (except Fe would maybe seek to be perfect in their "role" in the community rather than to only her father), but also says about her father that, "He doesn't get me," which feels Fi too, because of how he holds her back from the water and her true desires.

She's very Fe at the beginning in her culture, but more Fi at the end with Te Fiti.

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Hold up...how is that Fe? I understand this idea when pertaining to her people, but not when it's pertaining to her culture...I don't see how this is specifically Fe or Fi, one over the other. Speaking for myself, my Polynesian side is EXTREMELY important to me (like !!! important) so does that mean my acceptance of my culture is Fe? It's a huge part of my personal identity. It's part of why I am so invested in trying to type these characters! lol

I don't see this as something you can assign as either function because both have the capacity to accept and embody, or turn away from their culture's values as part of their identity...I mean isn't that part of the point of a value based feeling function period?

And @fresh, I think that dream itself can be Ni. She still sees the implications that not achieving the goal has for her people, using the dream as a "vision" to press onward (Se-Ni), rather than how it's about her, per se

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Yes, I agree it's Ni. My point was that the dream demonstrates she cares for the physical island too. I mean, if her ultimate goal was just to save her people, they have the boats which she was aware of, they could escape. I think part of her motive was saving her island too which seems more Se-like.

Haha what would be that crazy rooster's type? (I'm not being serious.)

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Oh Hei Hei? Lolz uhhhhh could you type something that dimwitted? Pua on the other hand is pretty cuddly adorable. I was actually sad that Pua didn't go in the trip, I don't really understand why he didn't.

As an aside, I tend to go with ENFP for Anna too, just because she has that Ne-energy of getting so wrapped up in her thoughts, but I think I'm due for rewatching Frozen to be more specific about that. I think it'd be interesting to inspect the extent of Anna's trauma, at least in regards to her parents deaths and being ignored by her only family member. That whole, "We finish each other's —" "Sandwiches!" That's what I was gonna say!" Seems like Ne-Fe banter. I think she also has ADHD haha. Oh and it's the same deal with the actresses, Kristen Bell is an ENFP. Funny how that works!

Snowflake Minuet said:

Also, on a more surface-level typing, INFJ seems to find a sweet spot for Elsa. She's perhaps too "cold" to be an ISFJ, but too willing to drop everything and leave to be an ISTJ, and too "warm" in some respects to be either IxTJ type (not saying, of course, that Te users are all that cold, please don't take it in the wrong way!). INFJ, being the "coldest feeler," fits nicely in that respect.

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No offense received :happy: I think this is why many characters get typed INFJ, and while it's okay to have it included in analysis it can be questionable when it's a core argument. While not too common with Elsa, I have seen other characters typed INFJ solely because "He/she is cold on the outside but a nice, loving person deep down." So are most IxTJs, in fact they are the "coldest" of types and are often holding a hidden "nice" side, and there is a difference between being "cold" and blunt/ less emotionally intelligent. The latter runs contrary to Fe.

I agree Elsa is symbolic and like all characters can't be perfectly typed, and she doesn't get much time in the film to be too developed. However, this is why I look to additional Frozen media, and through these I often find her character to be better explained, less vague and more consistent. Elsa seems to have Te quite a bit, but if nothing else her Si is very strong across the board. I understand if people ignore things such as OUAT (I find this can still be used since Disney works closely to honor beloved characters) the short(s) are clearly Canon as can be.

Do you (or anyone else reading) have an opinion on this? You needn't explain how Elsa comes off to you but I am curious how others use (or ignore) additional media appearances for any character.

fresh said:

Reflecting on it, I have some more thoughts as to why Moana is ESFP. Stepping back and looking at the bigger picture of Moana, Disney had a huge responsibility in this film to portray Polynesian culture as accurately as possible to avoid making the same mistakes they made with Pocahontas. Not sure how much of this is common knowledge, but they went so far as to form an Oceanic Trust, a group of experts to ensure they'd get it right, which they almost did (depending on who you ask).

Polynesian culture is very Si and Se oriented. Just in the song "We Know the Way", there's clear evidence of both so perfectly: "We are explorers reading every sign (Se/Ni). We tell the stories of our elders in a never ending chain (Si/Ne)." In order to get it right, they had to rely on Polynesian legends and myths, which is where they got Maui. I'm not an expert but from all I've heard in Polynesian myths from my family, there isn't really a strong element of a "calling", instead there's more of a theme of being chosen. It's pedantic, but there's a difference. If you're chosen, there's a reason someone chose you. Usually it's because a woman is beautiful or has a special talent. For men, it's because they're strong, fierce, and brave, and have proven it. Family lineage is huge, as well as chance.

They had to represent Si and that would be easy given the period of Polynesia they chose the film to take place. Even now, traditions are everything. But they also had to give credence to the culture's most notable feat, that of exploration, navigation, and expansion (Se). And to have an interesting plot, there has to be tension between the two. That's where Moana comes in. In a lot of ways, I think Moana mirrors the story of Maui, serving as an intermediary between the people and the gods. But unlike Maui who proved himself to be placed on demigod status (depending on the version), she was specifically chosen by the ocean. I think the perspective of something being a "calling", along with a strong awareness of it, is a modern interpretation of these myths created by the writers of Moana, adding to the dynamism of the character. But, ultimately the purpose of her character is demonstrating the importance of exploration and navigation, or Se Polynesian values.

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Thanks so much for this explanation and analysis; this is really interesting and I didn't know any of this.

angelcat said:

Considering my ENTP Enneagram 3 friend does it too, I'd say: nope.

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Well...Ti and line to 6 maybe

This really strikes me more as doubt than possibilities. There's Ne but...I'm an ENFP and I don't doubt and rethink things on this level, my Fi knows if I want to marry someone or not.

Do I love him? Do I even like him?

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This seems like doubt/disconnect from emotions (head type), not Ne

What if I'm just living out some dream reality? What if this is real and I choose no and miss it? What if I choose yes and get stuck in this relationship? What if love is an illusion? What if love isn't an illusion and I miss it by thinking about love being an illusion?

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For me these are 6 'what if's , not Ne 'what if's, this is overthinking into a cage, not neutral seeing possibilities and ideas

Am I being rational about this?

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The 6 motto, if you will

He seems to be hiding something from me. No, he isn't. Stop making stuff up.

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6 paranoia

You're running away again. No, I really do think there's something weird with this guy. Time to run away.

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6 fear, paranoia

I see Anna as an ESFP not because of her lack of analysis of situations (ExFP is Ti PoLR anyway) but because she doesn't really show signs of Ne except for some of the typical ditziness but...:/...she seems impulsive in a physical way, she's constantly running all over the place lol, goes on more physical tangents than mental ones

But I don't have a good argument right now, can't think clearly, just...I don't think overanalysis like that has to do with Ne

mistakenforstranger said:

I watched Moana tonight, and @fresh that's a bang-on analysis!

Moana - ESFP. I think the scene where she's lost and about to give up and then realizes who she is, stating her identity "I am Moana," was her accessing her Fi-aux, knowing what is truly of value to her. And yes, that scene with Te Fiti and the rock was also very Fi. You can also see how Moana uses Fi to remind Maui that his need for affirmation from others (Fe) isn't what is important, it's only who you are that is (Fi). Her Se isn't tertiary, and if the water is Ni, then it makes sense it would recruit a Se-dom to carry out its overall plan. :tongue: Haha, I don't know if the water has a type, though. Also, she as an ESFP is further proof why I don't believe Anna is the same type.

Maui - ESTP; That braggadocio of Se + tertiary Fe, that feeds off of affirmation from other people, and has the Ti skills of wave-riding (?) that Moana has to learn. Moana just uses Te to make/boss him into teaching her.

The other characters weren't that developed to type. Her father is the classic ESTJ trope that stifles their daughter's Fi (Ariel, Elsa, and now Moana!:shocked Her grandmother I think is possibly an xNFJ, plays the mentor/guide for Moana, and at least seems like an Ni-user with her focus on the symbolic stories of her people, reincarnation, and passing these down to the next generation, and pushing Moana to follow her destiny. I really like your take on Te Fiti as an ESFJ. I hadn't thought of it that way. Haha what would be that crazy rooster's type? (I'm not being serious.)

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Thank you! I agree with much of this, and you make fitting points for ENFJ in your other post as well, although I'd still like an explanation for the Fe culture thing! I was actually wondering if maybe ESTP could be the ultimate fit for Moana as an Se-dom, because she'll have Fe/Ti...I've never heavily interacted with a female ESTP though so I don't have a sense of reference for that. I went with ESFP because I can't help but see Fi. Guilty, as it's kind of my forte as an INFP/ plays a barnacle-like role in my life :laughing: Oh and upon reflection, maybe Hei Hei is...INFP?! I mean, he's to himself, accident-prone, scared of the ocean, and scatterbrained. He's also dreadfully misunderstood And I was reading the Moana thread, the arguments for Si in Maui make a lot of sense, but idk if it's enough to make me say ENTP...any thoughts on that?

Twist of Fate said:

Thanks so much for this explanation and analysis; this is really interesting and I didn't know any of this.

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So happy to hear you got something out of it! :hearts: I forgot to mention that Moana is fictional, created by Disney, unlike Maui who is part of many Polynesian cultures, almost all of them I think. It's suspected that Moana is based on a Hawaiian myth concerning Pele, goddess of fire, and Namaka, goddess of the sea.

Found some down time, so I put on Frozen for the thousandth time. For Anna, I found evidence of both Ne and Se.

Ne/Si: Like @mistakenforstranger said, she is terribly clumsy. I'm sure clumsy ESFPs exist, but likely not on her level. She has a habit of blurting out random thoughts, self-related info, and redacting mildly insulting statements, which is pretty Ne. She's also incredibly verbal and is a chatterbox. She isn't composed as a princess like Elsa is, she's kind of all over the place, unaware of where to stand, etc. Obviously idealistic, to her, opening up the doors = I can find love! She also uses Si to appeal to Elsa (if she were ISTJ) when trying to persuade her to come back home by bringing up childhood memories.

That being said, I agree with @angelcat that her accepting Hans so readily as an ENFP is somewhat questionable. I know one ENFP that would totally do that but she wasn't healthy at the time. I think it's more typical of Ne to relish the relationship blossoming naturally, and more importantly, want/need to know EVERYTHING about the person before fully jumping in. This is one of those things that is debatable because Anna has been encaged for so long, it makes sense to be eager for connection when she finds it, especially as a vivacious extrovert.

Se: Besides living in the moment and wanting to immediately wed Hans, she does have moments of Se brilliance, for example, when she's trying to climb the mountain, she suddenly yells "Catch!" and falls directly into Kristoff's arms. The line in the beginning: "The sky's awake so I'm awake!" seems Se-dom ish. Some of her attempts to connect with Elsa are sensory, like with the snowman and the love for chocolate. She also does have moments of force, like when she asks Kristoff for help to find Elsa, she throws gear and carrots at him, semi-accidentally, but verbally says, "You WILL help me up the mountain." She abruptly punches Hans in the end. And upon meeting Olaf, she immediately rejects him by dismembering him, which doesn't seem Ne-ish to me. I didn't see much Ni but that's not something I'm especially perceptive to anyway when it's not clear, like in Moana or Pocahontas' case. Maybe the fact that she meets Hans right as she ends "FTFTIF"? It's kind of premonition-ish.

Conclusion: IDK, lol. An ENFP with Se? An ESFP with Ne? Both seem possible, since she's made up.

As for Elsa, I still stick with ISTJ. @Librarian has some super spot-on points for Si that cemented it in for me. I lol-ed at the scene before the henchmen and Hans attack, she repeats: "Don't feel, don't feel, don't feel!", meanwhile the ice behind her is getting worse and worse, haha. There's so much evidence for Te, especially in "Let It Go". "The cold never bothered me anyway” “You’ll never see me cry." "Here I stand and here I stay."

One thing that I don't understand for the INFJ argument is that, the whole movie, she's trying to gain control of her powers. But her powers are directly related to her emotional state; the more emotion she pushes away, the less control she has. There's a way to explain this with Fe-aux, I know, but this seems to be more the experience of a Thinker, someone who will obliviously ignore their emotions and find themselves in more and more trouble.

Unnecessary, but I can't help psychological diagnosing Elsa: General Anxiety Disorder (trauma based). This is why she's so relatable, I think (which is so cool! Yay mental health awareness!). She also has acts of service as her love language. Anna: ADHD, and I think she may have an anxious-ambivalent attachment style that's verging on secure, explaining her eagerness for love. She was rejected by Elsa repeatedly, and lost her parents, which makes her transfixed with connecting with someone. I love the dichotomy of introversion and extroversion in this film, I feel as if that is captured perfectly in Anna and Elsa.

Kristoff: ISTP
Hans: ENFJ
Olaf: ENFP (ENTP with Fe makes sense too, but I get ENFP vibes)
Sven: CUTE
A-hole Guy with the Bad Toupee: ExTJ

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Continuing on with our Frozen discussion, @mistakenforstranger...

That mbti-notes link is an especially awesome resource! I bookmarked it, thank you <3 That Jungian neurotic Si-dom description fits Elsa pretty well. This inferior Ne description from the tumblr link REALLY fits. They even used the word "flurry". How fitting!:

They may try desperately to counter or prepare for the undesirable possibilities they imagine or even foolishly chase after what they perceive to be positive possibilities in hopes of solving a problem quickly, but often fail to do anything useful because of being overwhelmed by unconscious dread, unwittingly allowing a strong sense of risk aversion to color all incoming information. They can become irrational in trying to avert “potential disasters” or lose themselves in a flurry of reactive or impulsive behavior.

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mistakenforstranger said:

Regarding ending of Frozen: Haha, and it was so simple too. When I first saw the movie, I thought she was ISFJ, so I took this to be her Fe that was breaking out of the Si-Ti loop. I'm glad you like the idea of Olaf as Elsa's Ne, and I was thinking too today instead of it being Ne-aux, it's her shadow side, so Olaf is her inferior Ne. If you've seen Fight Club, it's similar to Edward Norton's character in Fight Club, who I think is an INFJ, and how Brad Pitt's character is the manifestation of repressed Se. :shocked: Though, I doubt Disney was thinking of that when they made it. They probably just wanted to create a cute, funny sidekick for the comedic relief. There's an article on this for Fight Club, but spoilers if you haven't seen it: Shadow Boxing with Fight Club - Personality Type in Depth

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Yeah, I agree that inferior Ne created Olaf. She is in such a state of flow in that scene, happy to be her introverted, authentic self Sadly I have not seen Fight Club! I need to. It's referenced pretty often in pop culture, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was a source of inspiration. Disney animators are pretty sneaky!

Yeah, and because she's an Type 1 too, so everything must be perfect!! She was still rather bossy in it too, like giving out orders to Kristoff/Olaf at the beginning. I'm even wondering if there's P-types who are Type 1s. It seems like that would be a confusing life. The only thing is I think maybe you could see Fe in her more, putting on the party for Anna, but I don't think that would necessarily exclude other types from doing the same for your sister, especially because Elsa's trying to atone for shutting out her sister all those years too. I really don't understand why Elsa didn't just wear gloves all the time, and then she would have been able to play with her sister. It worked at the banquet until her glove came off, but maybe she hadn't controlled her powers as much then...The inconsistencies in this movie. She could've been like Rogue from X-Men. Even Anna has the white streak in her hair!! I also read how Elsa was supposed to be the villain in the movie, but they changed it halfway through making it.

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I think there's 6 with Elsa too, along with 1 but 1 is definitely strongest. I'm sure there are a few 1 P's. A friend of mine who is either ISFP or INTJ (she's slow to open up/haven't seen clear Ni yet) is likely a 1w2, 6w5, 4w5, she's kind of scary when she's in that 1 mode haha. Yeah, that's true about the Fe party thing, she's definitely trying to show love, one way or another. I don't get why she didn't wear gloves all the time either! That really bothered me and distracted me when I first saw it haha. But it's all for the plot I guess. Lol love that X-men connection. I think Elsa is still kind of the villain in the movie, she's both an antagonist and protagonist, which makes her very interesting for Disney, once again. It would have been interesting if she was full villain.

Oh, I didn't know they did that with the villains, and I can picture you giving tour guides while sprinkling in little tidbits about the MBTI types of the Princesses haha, and everyone would be... :laughing: I haven't seen Maleficent.

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I can see that. I'm generally starved for MBTI talk so that does sound like something I'd do in an awkward moment of silence, haha. But maybe that's how I meet my soulmate! Babbling on about a nerdy topic like MBTI. Only in my dreams... *sigh* Maleficent was one I didn't want to like but dammit, I did. Angelina is really good in it. Elle Fanning (Aurora) was a horrendous choice. She almost killed it for me.

Hopefully none of you will mind me inserting myself into this debate.

fresh said:

Ne/Si: Like @mistakenforstranger said, she is terribly clumsy. I'm sure clumsy ESFPs exist, but likely not on her level. She has a habit of blurting out random thoughts, self-related info, and redacting mildly insulting statements, which is pretty Ne. She's also incredibly verbal and is a chatterbox. She isn't composed as a princess like Elsa is, she's kind of all over the place, unaware of where to stand, etc. Obviously idealistic, to her, opening up the doors = I can find love! She also uses Si to appeal to Elsa (if she were ISTJ) when trying to persuade her to come back home by bringing up childhood memories.

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1. Bolded stuff: none of these are arguments for Ne. They're traits commonly associated with Ne, but are not Ne in itself and could easily stem from other functions. What a lot of this points to is not that Anna uses Ne, but that she is an extrovert and that her Pe function is most likely her dominant one.

2. Idealism is common in high Ne types, but idealism alone is not enough to type someone Ne-dom.

3. Everyone has memories from their childhood and everyone may bring up those memories if they want to. If anything, the fact that Anna completely disregards her past experiences with regards to trying to get through to her sister (Anna had continuously tried to connect to Elsa throughout her childhood but was always shut out - older Anna insists that Elsa will listen to her despite past experience saying otherwise) indicates that she does not use Si.

That being said, I agree with @angelcat that her accepting Hans so readily as an ENFP is somewhat questionable. I know one ENFP that would totally do that but she wasn't healthy at the time. I think it's more typical of Ne to relish the relationship blossoming naturally, and more importantly, want/need to know EVERYTHING about the person before fully jumping in. This is one of those things that is debatable because Anna has been encaged for so long, it makes sense to be eager for connection when she finds it, especially as a vivacious extrovert.

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Bolded stuff: wanting to know everything before jumping in is more of a Pi thing. Both Pe functions are quick to act based on what's right in front of them (can be impulsive, but isn't always). Ne acts to gain as much potential out of the object as possible. Se acts to gain as much experience out of the object as possible.

I'd say that Anna's more the latter.

Se: Besides living in the moment and wanting to immediately wed Hans, she does have moments of Se brilliance, for example, when she's trying to climb the mountain, she suddenly yells "Catch!" and falls directly into Kristoff's arms. The line in the beginning: "The sky's awake so I'm awake!" seems Se-dom ish. Some of her attempts to connect with Elsa are sensory, like with the snowman and the love for chocolate. She also does have moments of force, like when she asks Kristoff for help to find Elsa, she throws gear and carrots at him, semi-accidentally, but verbally says, "You WILL help me up the mountain." She abruptly punches Hans in the end. And upon meeting Olaf, she immediately rejects him by dismembering him, which doesn't seem Ne-ish to me. I didn't see much Ni but that's not something I'm especially perceptive to anyway when it's not clear, like in Moana or Pocahontas' case. Maybe the fact that she meets Hans right as she ends "FTFTIF"? It's kind of premonition-ish.

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Again, I don't consider most of these examples arguments towards Se, despite the fact that I type her ESFP. How is punching somebody Se? Because you're using your hands? Because it's a physical act?

Conclusion: IDK, lol. An ENFP with Se? An ESFP with Ne? Both seem possible, since she's made up.

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I'd argue ESFP. She takes in what's going on around her (in the concrete world) and acts accordingly, very quickly and with a lot of skill despite her lack of experience. A good example of this is the scene with the wolves. She's quick to engage with the physical world without leaning onto previous experience (or any sort of internal framework) to help guide her. Her only possible Ne trait is idealism. For a fictional character of a children's film, I don't expect her to think almost entirely on a conceptual level, but a major point against Ne is her failure to consider alternate outcomes of the situation (she sees a problem, heads off to solve it and is so sure that it's going to work). She uses plenty of Se but the argument for Ne begins and ends with "idealism."

Ok, so I've said I'm done with this thread as far as Elsa's typing goes, but I just re-discovered this (well-recieved) blog post from a while ago and thought I might as well share it. If you want my arguments for the functions in plain listed form, with references, I've done plenty of posts and threads on that in the past. I don't want to get into a big argument here. Like I've recently said, I think animated character typing is always going to be a matter of opinion to some degree--this is my opinion on Elsa's closest fitting MBTI type. Also, it feels like there have been a lot of complaints about typing based on relating to characters, especially (and rather unfairly, imo) INFJs, and I just hope my arguments on Elsa's type are not being received as less valid due to my being an INFJ. If it makes any difference, not that it should, I don't even personally relate to Elsa all that much--most of the Disney protagonists are relatable on some level to most, but Elsa isn't one that really jumps out to me in particular anyhow.


Why Queen Elsa is an INFJ (in terms of common opposing arguments)

Doesn’t her being so tied to the past show her dominant Si?
She does look to her past to guide her, but by looking more at the context of her situation one can see that this does not have to be attributed to introverted sensing. INFJs may think going off by themselves will be the best remedy, but in the end this tactic only hurts them more. Why? Because of extraverted feeling. INFJs need to be able to have that emotional reassurance to help guide them. Without any food for Fe for all those years without her parents and without her sister, Elsa still tries to look to her loved ones’ words and care for guidance, because that is all she has. The past is actually something that hurts her, but in her isolation it is hard to come to realize this on her own, and she is happiest when she can focus on the future, her creative abilities, and the happiness of those around her.

She runs off and builds another castle just as she left one—there’s Si and no Ni in that.
Ni builds off of what it draws from the environment. And besides, it’s rather fitting that an INFJ would do something so impractical as to build an entire castle as a shelter in the mountains. Elsa may have good attention to detail, as INFJs generally do, but she is not necessarily detail oriented. And why not build a castle, honestly? INFJs are known for being attracted to the finer things with inferior Se. But also, didn’t the design of Elsa’s ice castle surprise and blow you away the first time you saw it? It’s really quite different than the one she came from. Building the castle is an expression of Ni through Se, the first time Elsa has been able to express herself for far too long, and is very exhilarating in the moment even though it doesn’t end up solving her problems—she has to work with Fe for that.

She has trouble with inferior Ne—all the memories of hurting Anna flooding back and the possibility of that happening again preventing her from moving forward.
But similarly to why Si doesn’t have to explain her troubles, inferior Ne assumptions are based off of things that are mostly situational. Inferior Se makes more sense, and we even see the growth of it throughout to some degree. In the beginning, dealing with her ice powers, which are a thing of the outside sensory world, is not in her comfort to do. At the coronation, she can hold together quite well for quite a while, but in the end everything is just too much, too overwhelming. Her underused Fe and her inferior Se are very drained, and she can’t keep it together any more. During the Let it Go sequence, she’s developing her comfort with Se, and through it is expressing Ni.

In the end, couldn’t her happiness be from finally realizing how to control her emotions, Fi, with Te and productively release them?
Possibly, though here it is with an INFJ’s functions: Throughout the movie, there is a strong attempt to try and control her feelings. The controlling and trying to make sense of is more internal, Ti, and the emotions are difficult to grasp and control because of Fe. INFJs struggle plenty with trying to understand their own emotions. They are good at reading other people’s emotions, but for the very reasons this is so it is often very hard to understand their own and easy to feel overwhelmed by them. INFJs take in the emotions through Fe and then process and come to realizations through Ni. Often the only way an INFJ can really make sense of his or her own emotions and effectively deal with them is by first externalizing them and putting them through that same process, which generally involves other trusted people. It’s Elsa’s very lack of Fi that gives her such a hard time dealing with all the fear, pain from the past, and loneliness she is struggling with. In the end, Fe finally opens up for her, and she realizes through the experience with her sister’s love just how she can channel all that turmoil inside.


edit: also, my typings for the other characters are: Anna ESFP; Olaf ENFP; Hans ENFJ; Kristoff ISTP; Duke of Weselton ISTJ; Sven ESTP.

Damn, I guess I was super off based.

Although I wonder if you recognized that by Ne, I meant signs of Ne-dom/ENFP, and Se, signs of Se-dom/ESFP, not just signs of each function individually...

Flower Hat said:

1. Bolded stuff: none of these are arguments for Ne. They're traits commonly associated with Ne, but are not Ne in itself and could easily stem from other functions. What a lot of this points to is not that Anna uses Ne, but that she is an extrovert and that her Pe function is most likely her dominant one.

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-terribly clumsy. my point: lack of Se, showing an unawareness of her concrete world. I've heard a lot of ENFPs rant about their clumsiness. And I've personally been victimized by it, lol *shrugs*. As an xNFP myself, I'm frustratingly clumsy.

-blurting out random thoughts, self-related info, and redacting mildly insulting statements; verbal and is a chatterbox. my point: shows Ne/Fi working together...Ne thinking out loud, Fi relating to self, Ne and Fi tendencies to go backwards when they say the wrong thing.

ENFPs can often seem random, scattered, distracted, and flighty. It can function either perceptively or expressively. The verbal expression of Ne amounts to something like “brainstorming aloud.” When orating, ENFPs may not always seem to “have a point” as they randomly move from one idea to the next. Often times, the “point” is for ENFPs to find their way to a judgment (Fi), but this first requires them to explore multiple options by way of their Ne.

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vs.

SP types, are often more interested in “doing” or being otherwise entertained than they are in sitting around talking. While they can certainly be chatty at times, Se, by nature, is not a highly verbal function.

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-isn't composed; all over the place, unaware of where to stand. my point: again, lacks Se, awareness of her environment. Also, lack of Fe, but:

ESFPs can also make great performers. Their sense of style and presentation, combined with their kinesthetic capacities, allow them to excel as actors, vocalists, and the like. ESFPs present as intelligent, articulate, and composed.

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2. Idealism is common in high Ne types, but idealism alone is not enough to type someone Ne-dom.

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Yes, as an INFP, I'm well aware of this, but I don't think I implied that only Ne-doms are idealists? Nor that just because she's an idealist, she's an Ne-dom. All of her dreaming and fantasizing in "For the First Time In Forever" is so ENFP, it hurts!

3. Everyone has memories from their childhood and everyone may bring up those memories if they want to. If anything, the fact that Anna completely disregards her past experiences with regards to trying to get through to her sister (Anna had continuously tried to connect to Elsa throughout her childhood but was always shut out - older Anna insists that Elsa will listen to her despite past experience saying otherwise) indicates that she does not use Si.

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Yes, as a human being, I'm well aware of this too. It's noteworthy to point out her strategy of connecting with Elsa through her memories because only when she journeys to find Elsa is when she gains them back. Poppy Troll removed some of young Anna's childhood memories to save her life, causing young Elsa to hide/"control" her powers even more than before. Gaining these memories back contributes to her thinking that Elsa ran away to escape her, feeding her desire to take some of the blame.

Of course she could use this strategy as an ESFP, but I'm just attempted to point out potential signs of Si if she were an ENFP, since you can't judge someone's type off of dominant function alone, and ESFP/ENFP share Fi/Te. Note that in Olaf's Frozen Adventure, she is the one that initiates seeking Christmas traditions.

Bolded stuff: wanting to know everything before jumping in is more of a Pi thing. Both Pe functions are quick to act based on what's right in front of them (can be impulsive, but isn't always). Ne acts to gain as much potential out of the object as possible. Se acts to gain as much experience out of the object as possible.

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While that's certainly true of Pi, it doesn't mean it's necessarily exclusive to Pi alone. Perceiving functions are generally used to collect information. And if Ne is indeed acting to gain as much potential out of love (in an ENFP), then I think referring to their Ji (Fi) and Pi (Si) alongside their Ne (Pe) would be of particular importance when analyzing a potential romantic partner. Fi asks what are their values? How are they like me? Si, have I ran into this mistake before? Goes back to Ne to see how this could play out, etc.

And idk, from what I've observed of ENFPs, the sign they like you is if they ask you a shit ton of questions, and they're particularly skilled at asking questions to get you to open up, because ultimately that is what they're interested in, the ooey gooey center, as NFs. They're tremendously skilled at getting to know people. They love love and it's process. Hence what I mean by relishing the blossoming of the relationship and wanting to know everything about the person. Really though, this depends on the individual/experience and enneagram likely plays a bigger role than MBTI.

This bit isn't within the context of a relationship, but it somewhat applies:

(Of ENFPs) In its receptive role, Ne works to gather information. It does not merely gather overt information as Se does. Ne is different in that it goes beyond or looks behind sense data. They enjoy asking questions that allow them to gain insight or knowledge from others, making them good facilitators of conversation.

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Again, I don't consider most of these examples arguments towards Se, despite the fact that I type her ESFP. How is punching somebody Se? Because you're using your hands? Because it's a physical act?

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Yes, possibly, because it's the compulsion to physically solve the problem/act on how you're feeling in the moment. Again, this isn't to say that an ENFP or another type isn't capable of hitting someone in that moment, nor that all ESxPs are violent (def not!), it's just that I could see an Se-dom, or really any Se user, being more instinctually drawn to solving matters this way. What of my list is specifically not Se and how? I'm still learning so since I'm so off, I'd like to know why. Some are Te-ish, like being more direct when asking for help, but to me it indicates Se/Te vs. Ne/Te in ENFPs, whose tactic is more "sincerity" as NFs. They'd probably tell you their life story in order to get them to help you.

I'd argue ESFP. She takes in what's going on around her (in the concrete world) and acts accordingly, very quickly and with a lot of skill despite her lack of experience. A good example of this is the scene with the wolves. She's quick to engage with the physical world without leaning onto previous experience (or any sort of internal framework) to help guide her. Her only possible Ne trait is idealism. For a fictional character of a children's film, I don't expect her to think almost entirely on a conceptual level, but a major point against Ne is her failure to consider alternate outcomes of the situation (she sees a problem, heads off to solve it and is so sure that it's going to work). She uses plenty of Se but the argument for Ne begins and ends with "idealism."

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I actually chose not to cite that specific example because while she does end up hitting the wolf and is smart and quick in using what's around her, Kristoff says: "You almost set me on fire!!!". Anna seems to sometimes be at odds with Kristoff's Se by repeatedly messing up his plans when he's trying to fight the wolves or Marshmallow. However, in the end, she does often figure out a way to save them, so she eventually gets there. It just lacks the finesse that you'd expect from a high Se user, like Merida for example. She is especially risky though and is quick to act for sure. I do think that the idealism is important enough to consider because it does heavily influence the plot.

I'd be interested in hearing these specific skillful Se moments, along with whatever other specifics for ESFP you might think of.

Snowflake Minuet said:

She runs off and builds another castle just as she left one—there’s Si and no Ni in that.
Ni builds off of what it draws from the environment. And besides, it’s rather fitting that an INFJ would do something so impractical as to build an entire castle as a shelter in the mountains. Elsa may have good attention to detail, as INFJs generally do, but she is not necessarily detail oriented. And why not build a castle, honestly? INFJs are known for being attracted to the finer things with inferior Se. But also, didn’t the design of Elsa’s ice castle surprise and blow you away the first time you saw it? It’s really quite different than the one she came from. Building the castle is an expression of Ni through Se, the first time Elsa has been able to express herself for far too long, and is very exhilarating in the moment even though it doesn’t end up solving her problems—she has to work with Fe for that.

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I agree! In fact, I think that the castle is actually one of the best arguments for why Elsa is INFJ over ISTJ. Elsa's castle is shockingly elaborate compared to the original castle at Arendelle:

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To consider Elsa's castle to be the product of Si familiarity doesn't sit right with me... The architecture is very different. To me it's a result of inferior Se detail and general INFJ imagination. I can't imagine an ISTJ making something as complex, unconventional, unfamiliar, and most of all impractical to live in just for the heck of it. I mean, for one thing, that castle is SUPER unnecessarily tall and noticeable. Isn't Elsa supposed to be hiding?? That's Se over Te for sure.

Retrospectacles said:

I agree! In fact, I think that the castle is actually one of the best arguments for why Elsa is INFJ over ISTJ. Elsa's castle is shockingly elaborate compared to the original castle at Arendelle:
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To consider Elsa's castle to be the product of Si familiarity doesn't sit right with me... The architecture is very different. To me it's a result of inferior Se detail and general INFJ imagination. I can't imagine an ISTJ making something as complex, unconventional, unfamiliar, and most of all impractical to live in just for the heck of it. I mean, for one thing, that castle is SUPER unnecessarily tall and noticeable. Isn't Elsa supposed to be hiding?? That's Se over Te for sure.

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Yes, but I find that's really the only reason why one would type her as a INFJ because it's creative, while she shows really no signs of Ni at all throughout the movie (and every sign of Si + inferior Ne). Elsa does have magic ice-powers after all giving her that innate ability, and I would actually expect Si-doms to be more in tune with the details of their creation in this elaborate way. This argument also suggests that a Si-dom couldn't create this kind of structure either. And really, what are the Disney creators going to design for her castle after her big breakthrough, an igloo? :tongue:

Her ice castle, which she creates while singing "Let It Go", was designed to illustrate the maturing of her powers as well as to be "a manifestation of her feelings to the world".The palace is initially beautiful; however, after she is made aware of the destruction she has inadvertently caused, and as she is increasingly vilified and hunted by others, it becomes darker and more distorted, with jagged icicles forming on the walls. The film's design team was uncertain about how it should look and drew out designs for various ice castles filled with snow. Lasseter suggested basing the structure and patterns on snowflakes. For example, an enormous snowflake would serve as the foundation, and the palace would be hexagon-shaped. Lasseter also wanted snowflake patterns to influence the manner in which Elsa creates the palace. "Snowflakes are these tiny little ice crystals that form in mid-air. And when there are changes in temperature and humidity, these snowflakes start growing in a pattern that's known as branching and plating," said co-effects supervisor Dale Mayeda. "[Lasseter] said 'You know, when Elsa builds her ice palace, it would be so amazing if—every step of the way as this castle forms out of thin air—it's just branching and plating, branching and plating all along the way."

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So, the structure isn't really created in a Ni-fashion, it's created based on snowflake patterns. I do see how the "manifestation of her feelings to the world" could be viewed as Fe, though. I originally thought she was a repressed Fe-user.

Snowflake Minuet said:

I agree! Another way to look at that is for instance, Anna is a Pe dominant feeler, Elsa is a Pi dominant, and Moana--well, can't make quite the same nice simplification from ExFx (I think she's an ENFJ, by the way)

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Would you like to elaborate on why you see ENFJ for Moana? I'm curious if you have any thoughts.

I actually re-decided she's an ESFP. Moana's Se is just way too strong to not be her dominant function. She's very much an SP and not a NF. I also think she's a Social instinct type, which adds to the sense of her being a Fe-user. I think the whole movie is this ultimate journey of connecting to her Fi-aux (See video, or don't if you don't want spoilers!!). "And the call isn't out there at all (Se) it's inside me" (Fi). It's a beautiful moment. :crying:

As a Secondary Function, Fi typically leads EFPs to tune into the unmet needs and callings of others--as an avenue to making a sale, as a way to intuit what would entertain people, as a channel to political gain by demonstrating that you understand people's pain (e.g. Bill Clinton), as a way to chart a course through life based on a calling felt to be unique to them. Sometimes it leads them to sense a higher calling to answer to, a sense that their actions have cosmic meaning by virtue of how they aid or hinder life.

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Sorry, I'm really busy lately, and I still want to reply to @fresh and @Librarian's posts from before.

I was reading the wikipedia page, and these earlier ideas for Frozen are hilarious:

The production team also turned Olaf from Elsa's obnoxious sidekick into Anna's comically innocent sidekick. Lee's initial response to the original "mean" version of Olaf had been, "Kill the f-ing snowman," and she found Olaf by far "the hardest character to deal with."

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Along the way, the production team went through drafts where the first act included far more detail than what ended up in the final version, such as a troll with a Brooklyn accent who would have explained the backstory behind Elsa's magical powers, and a regent for whom Lee was hoping to cast comedian Louis C.K.

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:laughing:

While this is the original villain Elsa. :shocked:

@Snowflake Minuet I hope you don't mind me quoting you, you don't have to respond, no obligation. I think I may be able to explain via this post why the Elsa INFJ, particularly Ni, is hard to side with. I don't think it's wise to devalue your argument due to type, others should debate based on the debate. I hope I can show it's nothing against you, it's really just the story's logic and character analysis that leads myself and others to type ISTJ. I like the way you describe INFJs here BTW, my responses are based more on whether Elsa seems to line up with your accurate descriptions and adding how ISTJs act as well

Doesn’t her being so tied to the past show her dominant Si?
She does look to her past to guide her, but by looking more at the context of her situation one can see that this does not have to be attributed to introverted sensing. INFJs may think going off by themselves will be the best remedy, but in the end this tactic only hurts them more. Why? Because of extraverted feeling. INFJs need to be able to have that emotional reassurance to help guide them. Without any food for Fe for all those years without her parents and without her sister, Elsa still tries to look to her loved ones’ words and care for guidance, because that is all she has. The past is actually something that hurts her, but in her isolation it is hard to come to realize this on her own, and she is happiest when she can focus on the future, her creative abilities, and the happiness of those around her.

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Elsa does have some food for Fe, though. 1. Elsa knows at least pne person loves her (Anna)at every stage in life (Anna lives 3 years believing no one does), yet Elsa still denies Anna and tells her she knows nothing of true love, harsh to say given Elsa KNOWS the pain she's been put through. 2. Elsa isn't entirely isolated, in fact she may have more human contact than Anna. First, she has the loyal couple Kai and Gerda (DisNerd trivia!), the kings most trusted servants. She also undoubtably knows the guards whpse job it is to protect and serve her. Most imtimatley, Elsa has Ladies in Waitimg, 6 at the very least, close servants. Not Elsa specific: Si DOES hurt Si doms, especially when the past involves pain and hurting others. Just as you say Si shouldn't be attributed to Elsa due only to a painful past, you can't simultaneously say she is less Si due to painful memories as these run counter.

She runs off and builds another castle just as she left one—there’s Si and no Ni in that.
Ni builds off of what it draws from the environment. And besides, it’s rather fitting that an INFJ would do something so impractical as to build an entire castle as a shelter in the mountains. Elsa may have good attention to detail, as INFJs generally do, but she is not necessarily detail oriented. And why not build a castle, honestly? INFJs are known for being attracted to the finer things with inferior Se. But also, didn’t the design of Elsa’s ice castle surprise and blow you away the first time you saw it? It’s really quite different than the one she came from. Building the castle is an expression of Ni through Se, the first time Elsa has been able to express herself for far too long, and is very exhilarating in the moment even though it doesn’t end up solving her problems—she has to work with Fe for that.

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I still agree that the physical creation of the castle is Ni, and the castles are waaaaay different in structure. The Si part of this isn't the castle, that much is clear. No, the true reason it's Si to so many is because of Elsa's actions, the deeper truth. Elsa does everything she did in her previous castle immediately afterwards: nothing. Alone. When Anna comes, presenting her ideas, Elsa doesn't even consider them and immediately gets anxious and upset by it. Obviously, old habits die hard. But Elsa just broke all the rules and built a castle that I believe is very iNtuitive in design and meaning. Even if she's only partially reconnected to her Ni, should she really act this way as a person who has accepted the more intuitive side of herself, assuming she has partly excepted the dominant Ni clearly seen in INFJs? Obviously Elsa's problems are far from over either way but the WAY a person reacts to a situation that can't be changed much either way reveals a lot about who they are. And to verify the obvious: ISTJs can be creative and unique.

She has trouble with inferior Ne—all the memories of hurting Anna flooding back and the possibility of that happening again preventing her from moving forward.
But similarly to why Si doesn’t have to explain her troubles, inferior Ne assumptions are based off of things that are mostly situational. Inferior Se makes more sense, and we even see the growth of it throughout to some degree. In the beginning, dealing with her ice powers, which are a thing of the outside sensory world, is not in her comfort to do. At the coronation, she can hold together quite well for quite a while, but in the end everything is just too much, too overwhelming. Her underused Fe and her inferior Se are very drained, and she can’t keep it together any more. During the Let it Go sequence, she’s developing her comfort with Se, and through it is expressing Ni.

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I'm not sure Se discomfort is less superficial/ situational than Ne discomfort. Same with Si v. Ni. The situational thing in general is based on the story and it's logic, uncconected to personality, right? You (and most people) who say Elsa is INFJ admit that she has ISTJ qualities but that these aren't natural/ happy/ healthy for her. Which in turn implies that something's pushed Elsa to go against her true nature to an extreme. But what basis do we have for this? Obviously, her dad taught her to suppress emotions externally (Fe); however he also made her hide an intrinsic part of herself to suit others, (Fi.) It's a pretty even split as far as feeling functions go, so no definitive evidence here. There's the old "her parents were abusive" and/or made it seem she had no choice. But it's clear they aren't abusive, and Elsa wasn't traumatized in a way where she was incapable of making her own choice or denying her parents. 1. Elsa told her dad "Stay away from me!" though he never once "taught" her this. (Minor example I know.) 2. Elsa DID go against her parents wishes during Let it Go. Seriously, she broke all their rules. 3. The creators themselves said Elsa is capable of making her own choices,yes, even bad ones.

In the end, couldn’t her happiness be from finally realizing how to control her emotions, Fi, with Te and productively release them?
Possibly, though here it is with an INFJ’s functions: Throughout the movie, there is a strong attempt to try and control her feelings. The controlling and trying to make sense of is more internal, Ti, and the emotions are difficult to grasp and control because of Fe. INFJs struggle plenty with trying to understand their own emotions. They are good at reading other people’s emotions, but for the very reasons this is so it is often very hard to understand their own and easy to feel overwhelmed by them. INFJs take in the emotions through Fe and then process and come to realizations through Ni. Often the only way an INFJ can really make sense of his or her own emotions and effectively deal with them is by first externalizing them and putting them through that same process, which generally involves other trusted people. It’s Elsa’s very lack of Fi that gives her such a hard time dealing with all the fear, pain from the past, and loneliness she is struggling with. In the end, Fe finally opens up for her, and she realizes through the experience with her sister’s love just how she can channel all that turmoil inside.

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This (quite accurately!) says INFJs are good at reading other people, which takes away from self understanding, and that the only way an INFJ can make sense of their emotions is first externalise them, often involving other trusted individuals. But when does Elsa do any of these things? As @angelcat brought to my attention, she never voices her feelings to anyone, never seeks such understanding. Anna saving Elsa makes Elsa truly free but this wasn't the result of some discussion involving external feelings. Think about it: Anna has for this whole movie, years in story, been seeking Elsa through verbal, sentimental means. But did it change things? No. What did? Anna showing through action that she loved Elsa. "You sacrificed yourself for me?" "I love you." "Of course. Love!" She never even came close to considering this possibility before, even when it was obvious, and despite years of proof and time to consider it.

I know some people think Elsa as ISTJ is superficial, but I don't see it that way at all, especially after what @mistakenforstranger said. Elsa as ISTJ makes sense both logically and symbolically IMO, and for me at least, it has nothing to do with other INFJs forcing it. It just makes sense to me, I've read all I could find like the obsessive person I am and read all sorts of back and forth. After all that and looking at Elsa's other media appearances, I can say ISTJ fits best.