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Discussion Starter #1
So, I know I'm a 5 enneagram for sure. Whenever I read descriptions of always wanting to be capable and competent and feeling like I had to develop competencies to be prepared to face life's challenges, it sounds like the story of my life. But I am unsure of my wing type. I see both wings in me, but I feel like I may lean towards being a 4. But do 4's care a lot about what people think? I didn't even realize how much I cared about this until some time ago. I remember back in grade school how I was always driven by a desire to prove other people wrong, as I constantly felt people were getting inaccurate assessments of who I was as a person. It used to frustrate me, because I thought that I was constantly being misunderstood, but that people weren't really basing their assessments of who I was off of accurate data-usually it was superficial, surface level things without actually getting to know me (and these assessments they made were almost always inaccurate). Of course, now I know these old ideas of wanting to prove people wrong were usually a waste of my time, mental energy, and resources, although every now and then the slight urge to want to prove people wrong still comes. And I do feel like my relentless pursuit of knowledge and truth is tied heavily to a desire for personal meaning and authenticity, which is apparently a 5w4 thing. But do 4's care this much about what other people think of them, and could it really influence my core 5 enneagram to such a degree? Perhaps being an INTJ somehow influences this?
 

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As a 4w3, I find myself caring about people's opinions if it's related my potential for success. For example, I need to bring some polished pieces of my writing to class this Friday, and I just made three people read and critique it before I send it off to a classmate who will then read and critique it. Outside of that context, I care what people think not because their opinions necessarily matter but rather I'm trying to find out what's wrong with me. When people tell me what they think of me, my attention is immediately occupied with fears regarding my image and whether my image truly reflects me. Like, if someone says that I'm a geek, I'm not worried about what that means for me; I'm more concerned with discovering if that description fits me.

Does that make sense? I think all fours care about other people's opinions because it lets us know what others see in us, and since we tend to be image conscious, we want our attempts of reflection to actually reflect us.
 

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Interesting. That does seem to be quite different from the way I seem to care about how others perceive me. For me, it is more like I have a sense of my identity, and when I see people basing their judgments off of shallow/surface-level criteria and contradicting that self-image, then it gets me annoyed. Maybe this is influenced by my MBTI type. Being an INTJ, I hate it when people make ignorant/not well-thought out remarks, particularly when the ignorance is stubbornly kept and/or steps on other people's toes. It just so happens to be the case (or seems to be the case) that my INTJness is somehow tied with my 4 wing in this regard. However, there are times when I am a little bit concerned for my image when I do feel there may be some truth to things about me even if the way other people are looking at it is a bit shallow.(perhaps they are just seeing surface level truths about my person, but fail to realize the circumstances that brought about some of those things explain certain 'defects' in myself instead of just marginalizing me based off of those silly defects) At the end of the day though, it all always stemmed from a desire of being truly understood by other people. Something I wish I got more often back in those days. And I think this part relates more to me being an INTJ/Ni-dom never feeling like I truly 'fit in'.

It's interesting because for you it almost seems like the opposite. Like you look onto what other people say as a way to question things about your own individual identity, if I understood you correctly. Perhaps the 3 wing influences you? To be fair, I'm thinking of 4 being more of my wing type rather than my actual type.
 

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I am 4w5.

But do 4's care a lot about what people think?
I think so. I think that's what causes insecurities in 4's. Personally speaking, I got over a lot of my insecurities and genuinely do not care most of the time. I am reserved, but not too shy. But I sometimes do react sensitive to those I love and desire approval from.

as I constantly felt people were getting inaccurate assessments of who I was as a person. It used to frustrate me, because I thought that I was constantly being misunderstood,
I think this is huge. I don't think 4's have that 'let's collect evidence!' attitude like 5's or intjs (I am an infp, so that may have a factor as well, just letting you know), but there was a feeling of being misunderstood because I felt no one understood the depth I had.

And I do feel like my relentless pursuit of knowledge and truth is tied heavily to a desire for personal meaning and authenticity
I think this is big. main description for 4's, no? There are levels of each enneagrams too, so that may be a factor as well. As 4's get more secure and healthier, they are able to explore themselves to find authentic ways to express themselves and allow others to do the same. But I think until then, they are very self-conscious and constantly seek approval. I mean, their direction of digression, in fact, is an unhealthy 2.

Enneagram Institute states:
Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious. Withholding themselves from others due to feeling vulnerable and defective, they can also feel disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living. They typically have problems with melancholy, self-indulgence, and self-pity.
Hope that helps.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Alright, I am definitely leaning towards being a 5w4 INTJ.

Someone was telling me I looked more like a 5w6 so I was second guessing. But I think they just looked at my INTJness and Te and perhaps got biased. That, and I do feel like I have a 6 wing as well. But, I fit way too many 4 qualities to not be a 5w4 IMO.
 

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Like you look onto what other people say as a way to question things about your own individual identity, if I understood you correctly.
I don't think you've got it right. As a four, yes, I'm always trying to find my identity, but external comments don't really affect that search. I'm concerned with how I see myself and whether or not my view shows through my expressions and appearances. Does that make sense?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don't think you've got it right. As a four, yes, I'm always trying to find my identity, but external comments don't really affect that search. I'm concerned with how I see myself and whether or not my view shows through my expressions and appearances. Does that make sense?
Aw okay, I get it now. So it is to make sure that you're true authentic self is being displayed accurately in public/to other people, but you yourself find your own identity. That is very interesting.
 

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Aw okay, I get it now. So it is to make sure that you're true authentic self is being displayed accurately in public/to other people, but you yourself find your own identity. That is very interesting.
Yea, life's a mess. I'm stuck in this limbo of self-doubt and preservation when it comes to solidifying my identity. At the same time, I understand that identities can change over time based on a multitude of things such as trauma, adventures, and experiencing doses or moments of enlightenment. From my view, staying true to myself means to stay true to my passions and to make my passions my goal. As such, I become almost prideful when people say that I look like, for example, a novelist or like I could be in a boardroom of writers discussing an episode's plot. Hearing people's opinions of my image help me to understand whether my passions show past the physical parts of me. My actions, my clothes, the items I carry with me: all of it contributes to my image and I feel like every characteristic I employ should reflect my passions and goals. If I receive feedback that it doesn't, then I begin to feel insecure, almost like I've done a bad job.

EDIT: The above paragraph focuses on how my wing affects me. I'm sure 4w5's have a more internal struggles with their image.

Almost every opinion that affects me relates to my image. If my roommate's pissy at me for being late with my payments, then I feel bad not for being late but rather for allowing her to think of me as a lazy person.

While I'm figuring out my specific beliefs and other aspects of my identity via internal debate and exploration, I want the image I present to reflect my passions and goals. When the image I think I'm presenting and the image I'm actually presenting don't line up according to others, then I get upset and insecure.

Ha, I have no idea if this makes any sense. Enjoy this venting session!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Yea, life's a mess. I'm stuck in this limbo of self-doubt and preservation when it comes to solidifying my identity. At the same time, I understand that identities can change over time based on a multitude of things such as trauma, adventures, and experiencing doses or moments of enlightenment. From my view, staying true to myself means to stay true to my passions and to make my passions my goal. As such, I become almost prideful when people say that I look like, for example, a novelist or like I could be in a boardroom of writers discussing an episode's plot. Hearing people's opinions of my image help me to understand whether my passions show past the physical parts of me. My actions, my clothes, the items I carry with me: all of it contributes to my image and I feel like every characteristic I employ should reflect my passions and goals. If I receive feedback that it doesn't, then I begin to feel insecure, almost like I've done a bad job.

EDIT: The above paragraph focuses on how my wing affects me. I'm sure 4w5's have a more internal struggles with their image.

Almost every opinion that affects me relates to my image. If my roommate's pissy at me for being late with my payments, then I feel bad not for being late but rather for allowing her to think of me as a lazy person.

While I'm figuring out my specific beliefs and other aspects of my identity via internal debate and exploration, I want the image I present to reflect my passions and goals. When the image I think I'm presenting and the image I'm actually presenting don't line up according to others, then I get upset and insecure.

Ha, I have no idea if this makes any sense. Enjoy this venting session!
No, I actually think it's very cool, and it makes complete sense. It's funny, because I know an INFP 4w3 as well. He just figured out his wing type not too long ago too. I didn't really know all this about him as well either, but I can see it in him now that you explain all of it. I think this describes more how he used to be though. I don't think he is as much like this anymore.

You know, I think I do a little bit of the same thing to be perfectly honest. I think that I, to some extent, try to make sure that my true self is accurately portrayed to the public. But I do think I tend to make my individuality expressed more through the things I am interested in or write about. So, my focus on expressing my individuality is influenced mainly by my core 5 type. However, when I got older, I did try to let my identity show a bit through my style-especially recently. When I was younger, I was a bit more oblivious to how my identity showed in public, but eventually, I started focusing on it more. (It was always something I cared about, but would put it off constantly) I try to fit the way I look in a way that somewhat shows my identity. Of course, it's not a big priority of mine so it is not that much of a focus. I mainly focus on dressing in socially appropriate ways, and if I have time, then I can refine and personalize the way I look.
 
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