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Hey everyone, it's yet an other Female INTJ dilemma.

What do you think about this concept:
So our Shakespeare Dr was explaining about Gender Anxiety in Macbeth which made me think and re-analyse myself->According to Structuralism/Binary Opposition/Sexism (bare with me, she's just explaining those currents' perspective) Masculinity's definition is bound to Femininity's definition. What's not feminine is masculine. Some aspects like "sexuality" are praised within masculinity, consequently considered shameful and threatening in femininity. Even worse, according to patriarchal systems, men must oppress and hide their feminine sides and appear more masculine. In this way, the worse insult for a man would be when someone tells them they are feminine, therefore to effeminate them.

Back to whatever is known/discussed about Female INTJ-hood (especially when I'm androgynous)
Does it mean my lack of awaited/predicted femininity according to my sex (female) is disharmonious with this balance with men?
I don't demean men like most women do when they don't get what they want. I'm not aggressive maybe 2/10 which I think is nothing compared to REALLY aggressive people who almost strangle the people they're talking with. I don't even have the physical strength (according to those who think being a man=being physically strong and almighty powerful) to like overpower them or anything. I'm not even the girl in the boy's gang tomboy-ish person either. Okay most of my friends are guys, but well you know... I'm in introvert, I'm not a gangs person.

Anywhos, is being androgynous that unattractive or threatening to men?
Either I'm seen/taken as a doll or a confident.
Like I'm usually attracted by men due to my biologically Female traits and considered as "awww so cute I wanna hug you" crap. Deep down, those men don't wanna know anything ABOUT me. They like to show me off as the Female figure to their friends and ask them "isn't she cute?" bullshitery of questions. I mean dafuq we're in 2015 and there are people still with medieval lifestyles XD
Or
I'm the trustworthy person. Mind you, I never tell them yeah tell me your issues and secrets and everything. Okay yeah the data they tell me never leaves my brain but... did I tell them I wanted to know all that? o_O Sometimes I tell them to their faces that I don't care about some private/intimate issues but well... they keep on loading my brain up. Helping friends and listening to them is enjoyable BUT I'M NOT A FRIGGIN PSYCHOLOGIST. I need three psychologist on my own^^ and few bodies to switch my consciousness to when the old body literally dies of pain. Few of those men eventually get obsessed with probably the person who know so much about them but when I reject them they disappear. Anywhos lets keep up with just men who consider me their confident for some weird reasons and are not romantically interested in me.

Am I (excluded from my physical traits) that wrong of being to effeminate men? Is my physical/mental-emotional paradox that threatening to men?

I appreciate serious answers and the time given to read this mess.
 

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Okay, so, take a deep breath. I'm guessing you're in college because you're using a bunch of big words and ideas that nobody even considers to be "things" until someone tells them to.

Here's the short answer: Yes. Yes you do.

But here's the long answer: Society lays certain traits on men and women, some of which have a basis in reality (Men are typically stronger, for example) due to biological factors and differences between the genders. Some of them have no basis in biology but are instead enforced by society itself (men are better at math and science). Since you're an INTJ, I'm gonna take a few stabs in the dark here about some of your personality traits.

You don't cry very often, and never in front of people you don't know.
You aren't a stupid, and "White Girl Wasted" probably isn't in your vocabulary.
You aren't bubbly and peppy in your day-to-day interactions.
You aren't particularly nurturing towards people you don't know.
You have times where you refuse to accommodate others.
You probably have a passion for SOMETHING related to math and science.

All of these things, taken together, go directly against what society says you should be as a woman. So, naturally, yes that threatens men a little because women and men are supposed to be different. And that's not a particularly bad thing. Men and women should both have their gender identity threatened from time to time because it encourages them not only to reconsider things that might be wrong but also to strengthen and reinforce the ideals that are right. Or at least right for the time.

So do you emasculate men? Every time you do something they can do. Is that a bad thing? Nah.
 

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I have heard this before from some men, in relation to myself. It's more than confidence but rather the "I really don't need you" attitude. Not in the over-proud sort of "I DON'T NEED YOU I CAN DO THIS MYSELF," but an honest "I seriously don't need you. If I need you I will call you, but right now I do not need you." I think that can be very threatening and effeminating to some men, especially since women are stereotypically supposed to seek help and rely on men for things. When I stand there doing everything and they're forced to watch (because god help anyone who tries to assist me with something when I haven't asked for it), I've been lead to believe that that makes them uncomfortable.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this is a thing, I would never want a partner relying on me for things that I know they can do themselves when there's no reason for them not doing it themselves. ie. (and this is somewhere in rant territory), a coworker of mine got very upset that her boyfriend didn't show up at her apartment to clean the snow off of her car. Uh, it was a Saturday, he was busy, you were at home all day, and you have arms.

Whatever the case and whatever the reason... I think whether or not they feel effeminated by you or anyone else is on them, not you. They shouldn't need you to do anything or be a certain way to define themselves and if they feel less masculine because of something you're doing, that's a problem they have to fix.

I keep rereading OP and I'm not sure my post entirely relates. Does it? I'm sorry.
 

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Am I (excluded from my physical traits) that wrong of being to effeminate men? Is my physical/mental-emotional paradox that threatening to men?
More often than not, guys don't like girls with domineering personalities; they usually don't like the fact that a woman can outperform them in "manly areas," partly rendering them inapt and useless, which is why some feel threatened. (Some girls feel the same way about guys who are better babysitters and nurturers than they are; the same feeling: feeling outdone, inapt, and purposeless).

What I observe mostly is that if a man finds it insulting to be called a woman, it's a telltale sign that he has mostly built his identity and ego around masculine ideals and he is insecure about it. Why would someone be so angry when he/she is called anything by anyone? If you know solidly who you are in substance, the human you, "the soul you," would there be any reason to be offended by being called names and derogatory labels, including gender-crossed insults ("girly man").
 

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Hey everyone, it's yet an other Female INTJ dilemma.
I appreciate serious answers and the time given to read this mess.
Well here's my experience. I have a very feminine body (petite hourglass figure) and overall I'd say my face is pleasing in a chicky kind of way. But I'm not a man magnet. In fact I rarely get much attention once I open my mouth and express an opinion. A lot of men I work with who are Manly Men TM, do not enjoy working with me and often complain that I am aggressive. WTF? So it's got nothing to do with the way you look. Apparently I emasculate men by merely existing. OMG!

Invariably the only men who are interested in being in a relationship with me tend to be the ones described by society as being effeminate. Ie, they aren't career driven, are usually artistic, low testosterone in physical appearance and prefer to be more passive in their expression than active. These men tend not to be 'emasculated' by me expressing opinions, being driven and focused and having a more active expression. But.....they still want to show me off like a toy anyway. :rolleyes:

That's about as much as I can contribute. As for the original quote, I kind of think that thinking is bullshit. Although I'm not denying that many people want to run their life in that way. But personally I think it's a steaming pile.
 

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Many men find a powerful and decisive individual like an INTJ female to be intimidating, I'm sure. There's the bias that thinking is masculine and feelings are feminine. When suddenly a seemingly stone cold female comes along it scares some men, because they don't know how to handle you in most of the cases. You're expected to be a certain way, and (as they perhaps sarcastically and sharply will discover) you instead have your own personality.
 

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I've asked these types of questions and experienced similar wtf moments myself. So no hard and fast answers from me I'm afraid.

I tend to think that there is a lot of indoctrination and underlying cognitive dissonance that surrounds the expectations of sex roles. It's deeply ingrained and lets face it, not everyone has reason to self reflect like OP.

I'd suggest looking at all the gender role debates in the S&R section if you have the stomach. You'll probably come out none the wiser but it will give a clue that nobody else does either and you may take out some information that will help reassure you of your own sanity.
 

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Many men find a powerful and decisive individual like an INTJ female to be intimidating, I'm sure. There's the bias that thinking is masculine and feelings are feminine. When suddenly a seemingly stone cold female comes along it scares some men, because they don't know how to handle you in most of the cases. You're expected to be a certain way, and (as they perhaps sarcastically and sharply will discover) you instead have your own personality.
The simple solution is to treat them like a fellow man. If they are too harsh to he INTJ woman, she'd fight back like a wild cat anyway and the man could adjust his behaviour. I'm lucky in that I know a few men who can handle me, but they are very hard to find. But then, sensible women who don't (s)mother me to death are even harder to find. The only way I can avoid this kind of mess is by severely limiting the number of people I let into my life and by having very firm boundaries.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I have heard this before from some men, in relation to myself. It's more than confidence but rather the "I really don't need you" attitude. Not in the over-proud sort of "I DON'T NEED YOU I CAN DO THIS MYSELF," but an honest "I seriously don't need you. If I need you I will call you, but right now I do not need you."
Exactly!! *-*

I think that can be very threatening and effeminating to some men, especially since women are stereotypically supposed to seek help and rely on men for things. When I stand there doing everything and they're forced to watch (because god help anyone who tries to assist me with something when I haven't asked for it), I've been lead to believe that that makes them uncomfortable. I can't for the life of me figure out why this is a thing, I would never want a partner relying on me for things that I know they can do themselves when there's no reason for them not doing it themselves. ie. (and this is somewhere in rant territory), a coworker of mine got very upset that her boyfriend didn't show up at her apartment to clean the snow off of her car. Uh, it was a Saturday, he was busy, you were at home all day, and you have arms.
This... gahhh. This happens a lot. Like there's a couple and they need a box for some reason(it's not heavy at all >.>). The girl is 5 feet away from the box. Nooo. The guy has to bring that box! This has no damn logic!! She's alreadynext to the effin box!

Whatever the case and whatever the reason... I think whether or not they feel effeminated by you or anyone else is on them, not you. They shouldn't need you to do anything or be a certain way to define themselves and if they feel less masculine because of something you're doing, that's a problem they have to fix.

I keep rereading OP and I'm not sure my post entirely relates. Does it? I'm sorry.
Well, apparently yes^^ I appreciate it as well :)


More often than not, guys don't like girls with domineering personalities; they usually don't like the fact that a woman can outperform them in "manly areas," partly rendering them inapt and useless, which is why some feel threatened. (Some girls feel the same way about guys who are better babysitters and nurturers than they are; the same feeling: feeling outdone, inapt, and purposeless).

What I observe mostly is that if a man finds it insulting to be called a woman, it's a telltale sign that he has mostly built his identity and ego around masculine ideals and he is insecure about it. Why would someone be so angry when he/she is called anything by anyone? If you know solidly who you are in substance, the human you, "the soul you," would there be any reason to be offended by being called names and derogatory labels, including gender-crossed insults ("girly man").
Interesting... this is also a mislabeling I guess. I agree I do get considered domineering. That's actually very common o_O
Thing is I don't like to be dominated. I can't tolerate it or live that way. I mean I tried but i's not me. For instance, I quit working for customer service, this constant obeying/serving was unbearable which is also common with waiters and hostesses.
BUT it doesn't mean I like dominating people. In my perspective, I'm not domineering (maybe for others I am). I like it when there's balance with two strong forces/powers. Tho the nehnehneh stereotypical NT controlling is fun, but that's not a life damn it XD I know people whom I can count on one hand with whom this power is on moderate ground. I just wish I can have that with more people.

Thank you for your time :)
 

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An INTJ will never give her partner an excuse to be vulnerable, which is what I think alot of men secretly long for.

Usually the woman in a relationship will be the one showing vulnerability which allows the man to rationalize his own vulnerability by going "I don't actually want to show affection/love/emotions, I'm just doing it because she needs/wants me to and it will make her happy."
 

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An INTJ will never give her partner an excuse to be vulnerable, which is what I think alot of men secretly long for.

Usually the woman in a relationship will be the one showing vulnerability which allows the man to rationalize his own vulnerability by going "I don't actually want to show affection/love/emotions, I'm just doing it because she needs/wants me to and it will make her happy."
I find this to be true with both my husband and my guy friends. They don't literally say "OMG, you are the first woman who lets me be vulnerable, I have waited for a strong woman all my life blablabla." But their behaviour around me does reflect that. First we hiss at each other like "men" to establish a male hierarchy, but that never goes anywhere because we are equally strong. Then we both give up and are a lot tamer for each other than we are for other people and secretly fuss with each other (nonverbally if it's a guy friend, verbally and physically with the husband).

edit to add: Oh, I think I misunderstood your post. Never mind.
 

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Hey everyone, it's yet an other Female INTJ dilemma.

What do you think about this concept:
So our Shakespeare Dr was explaining about Gender Anxiety in Macbeth which made me think and re-analyse myself->According to Structuralism/Binary Opposition/Sexism (bare with me, she's just explaining those currents' perspective) Masculinity's definition is bound to Femininity's definition. What's not feminine is masculine. Some aspects like "sexuality" are praised within masculinity, consequently considered shameful and threatening in femininity. Even worse, according to patriarchal systems, men must oppress and hide their feminine sides and appear more masculine. In this way, the worse insult for a man would be when someone tells them they are feminine, therefore to effeminate them.

Back to whatever is known/discussed about Female INTJ-hood (especially when I'm androgynous)
Does it mean my lack of awaited/predicted femininity according to my sex (female) is disharmonious with this balance with men?
I don't demean men like most women do when they don't get what they want. I'm not aggressive maybe 2/10 which I think is nothing compared to REALLY aggressive people who almost strangle the people they're talking with. I don't even have the physical strength (according to those who think being a man=being physically strong and almighty powerful) to like overpower them or anything. I'm not even the girl in the boy's gang tomboy-ish person either. Okay most of my friends are guys, but well you know... I'm in introvert, I'm not a gangs person.

Anywhos, is being androgynous that unattractive or threatening to men?
Either I'm seen/taken as a doll or a confident.
Like I'm usually attracted by men due to my biologically Female traits and considered as "awww so cute I wanna hug you" crap. Deep down, those men don't wanna know anything ABOUT me. They like to show me off as the Female figure to their friends and ask them "isn't she cute?" bullshitery of questions. I mean dafuq we're in 2015 and there are people still with medieval lifestyles XD
Or
I'm the trustworthy person. Mind you, I never tell them yeah tell me your issues and secrets and everything. Okay yeah the data they tell me never leaves my brain but... did I tell them I wanted to know all that? o_O Sometimes I tell them to their faces that I don't care about some private/intimate issues but well... they keep on loading my brain up. Helping friends and listening to them is enjoyable BUT I'M NOT A FRIGGIN PSYCHOLOGIST. I need three psychologist on my own^^ and few bodies to switch my consciousness to when the old body literally dies of pain. Few of those men eventually get obsessed with probably the person who know so much about them but when I reject them they disappear. Anywhos lets keep up with just men who consider me their confident for some weird reasons and are not romantically interested in me.

Am I (excluded from my physical traits) that wrong of being to effeminate men? Is my physical/mental-emotional paradox that threatening to men?

I appreciate serious answers and the time given to read this mess.
You probably are a natural psychologist. Many Ni-doms are. It's what Ni is all about. But you are not a trained psychologist and you did not advertise yourself as suchy. So those guys sniff your natural ability, but they try to dodge your fees (because you don't charge any fees in the first place) and don't do you the same favour in return.
All my friends, whether male or female, help me unstick my brain when it's stuck and I do the same for them. Out of the four friends (plus 1 husband) who do this, only one is a trained psychologist.

They probably don't want to go to a psychologist, because there is a historic stigma attached to it where therapy is seen from a perspective of mental illness rather than mental health. But on the other hand they need someone who fulfills this function, anyway, so they try you.

Where do you live? Your culture might also influence this.
 

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I wonder if some people just aren't a good judge of character... as in, they go by surface level observations, so stoic/controlled is scary/mean, bubbly/outgoing is friendly/loving, etc.

It may help explain the reactions that your prototypical strong/silent type gets.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You probably are a natural psychologist. Many Ni-doms are. It's what Ni is all about. But you are not a trained psychologist and you did not advertise yourself as suchy. So those guys sniff your natural ability, but they try to dodge your fees (because you don't charge any fees in the first place) and don't do you the same favour in return.
All my friends, whether male or female, help me unstick my brain when it's stuck and I do the same for them. Out of the four friends (plus 1 husband) who do this, only one is a trained psychologist.

They probably don't want to go to a psychologist, because there is a historic stigma attached to it where therapy is seen from a perspective of mental illness rather than mental health. But on the other hand they need someone who fulfills this function, anyway, so they try you.

Where do you live? Your culture might also influence this.

That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard. I need psychologistS (emphasize on the plural) for myself. There are people much gifted than you think of me. And if it happens that I'm comfortable with them... then I discuss my issues with them. I'm simply a rational nothing really humanistic or anything. This was to answer your "friends trying to unstick your brain" thingy. I don't discuss my issues with the people who discuss their issues 24/7 with me. If someone asks me for help then they can't handle 1% of my issues. The really gifted people are rare. Too rare.

That stupidity exists everywhere. I don't understand their logic.
I still live in Lebanon, so yeah going to a psychologist means you're crazy here too.
 

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*a lot of people
Dunning-Kruger effect I wonder?

Probably a lot of people who think they're a good judge and aren't, and a lot who think they aren't and are.

I've only recently come to the realization that I may be a good judge of character. I think I always sort of took it for granted and assumed that people have about the same skill at doing it, so there was no real sense of being "good" or "bad" at it, in my mind.
 

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@Obscure

Those who are secure in their being will find no threat in you. But for many people their attraction is to what can be called "desirable otherness" (what Carl Jung called the Anima/Animus, although he was a product of the gender norms of his time, so didn't get everything right yet), aspects that they like, but have not integrated into their conscious personality.

Personally, I try to walk the path of balance, so I find people (and thus women) who embody a broader spectrum of human potential, quite interesting. It's actually annoying that many people choose to hide their true nature.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Those who are secure in their being will find no threat in you. But for many people their attraction is to what can be called "desirable otherness" (what Carl Jung called the Anima/Animus, although he was a product of the gender norms of his time, so didn't get everything right yet), aspects that they like, but have not integrated into their conscious personality.

Personally, I try to walk the path of balance, so I find people (and thus women) who embody a broader spectrum of human potential, quite interesting. It's actually annoying that many people choose to hide their true nature.
Weird, the anima and animus thingies are really briefly discussed yet we include them in almost every character analysis in literature o.o

Side note: I like your avatar and your signature in purple :3
 

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Weird, the anima and animus thingies are really briefly discussed yet we include them in almost every character analysis in literature o.o

Side note: I like your avatar and your signature in purple :3
If you want to understand more, I can recommend this book:
Masculine and Feminine
The Natural Flow of Opposites in the Psyche
by Gareth S. Hill
 
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