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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
  • Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?
(Regardless of whether or not, you agree with them, or think they are fair)


  • Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
  • Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
  • Does it motivate you to succeed?


Be it, in your interpersonal relationships, secularly, academically, & so on...​

What are your thoughts, & experiences?
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Maybe, I'm a bit of a masochistic, because this week I was insulted, & it kind of made me feel giddy. :crazy:
I agreed with the assessment, but I thought the insult, was a bit much (over the top). It actually, brought me some renewed clarity, & confidence, in my own worth, & what I value. Isn't that odd?


Edit: This was my thought process:

Ok, I agree (nods head)...but then...hey, how dare you!? It was funny, & shocking, at the same time. It made me feel like my own cheerleader, motivating myself to reject the insult, but accept the criticism.
I can be my own toughest critic, but then again, the loudest pep squad member, on my team.
:laughing:


Second example: When I got a failing grade in Chemistry, the only F, I ever got, it made me question the teacher, first of all, because he was an arrogant jerk, who hated me.
But then I was was like... ok, I'm going to ace this...in your face!

 
Victory lap!!!
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The types who are strong with Te and Se seem to frequently encounter that feeling you described. I know multiple ESFP, for instance, who report getting more and more persistent the more you insult them, or the more they see they aren't getting the reaction or win they wanted (and for that very reason like people who are salty and to some degree nay-sayers). ENTJ also have this mentality that if you really want to achieve a goal it may make sense to fail 999 times to win on the 1000th try.

I know this is counter-intuitive to type descriptions, but I really believe INTJ suffer from conservatism every bit as much as the SJ's supposedly do. We don't want to fail or be incompetent - so we envision what's wrong with everything that would make it a bad idea, avoid it, do our own thing instead, and avoid inevitable failure rather than failing and learning from it. In doing that we end up in our own little stable, methodically-considered bubbles, but don't get exposure to other things.

So IMO it isn't unusual at all to feel better after a failure, or criticism. It's probably a sign you're growing and getting a more objective sense of how to improve : )
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I have to admit, that's not always my reaction to defeat, but when it is, I definitely have learned from it, & won't repeat it. :proud:


 
I think when resistance comes from an outside source, my reaction is to fight it.
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Internal defeat is the one that is hardest to recover from.


Or this:
 

giphy-downsized.gif

Ok, maybe not this violent, but you get the picture.
 

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i do sometimes get a sense of new focus from hearing an outside eye's perspective on things. i think the main type of result is that it can sometimes make me quit bitching and whingeing, and do. it's a get-over-yourself type of reality check and sometimes i take it on board :tongue:

are the results directly proportional to the degree of aggression/insult though? no. or at least i hope not. i despise a certain kind of end-justifies-means mindset so much that when people intentionally try to apply it to me it has the unwanted effect. instead of knee-jerk reacting to the content, i just lock my knees and my heels go down based on the method of it. the kind of thing that i'm talking about seems to be most prevalent (out of my own experiences) in the personal-training type realm. 'got you mad though' is not a motivational justification that i accept. even if it works in the moment, i won't forget and won't ever forgive/respect anybody who takes that approach.


Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?


this one is interesting, but my mind is very deep in a specific, very pragmatic subtype of this issue right now. it can make me feel good IF:

- the problem was caused by my own fault.
- i understand (actually maybe only if i understood all along) in what way it is my own fault. in other words, if i sort of knew the whole time i was creating the problem for myself that that was what i was busy doing. then the consequence is not a surprise and there is a definite 'okay, time for another big-girl panty party' type feeling to the whole thing.
- the problem feels rectifiable.

but i think really the tl;dr of all that is just 'if adulting up is going to fix it, then yup.' i always feel like i should be much more of a grownup than i really am, so those intermittent moments where life+me bumps me into actually having to do it definitely can feel good. i go around for a while afterwards feeling really smug and pleased with myself until the new dose of disarray has had time to build up.

i have a habit of letting certain things slide. stuff no technical grownup is supposed to not keep on top of. but 80 to 90% of the time being an adult is too boring for me, so i like the little intermittent moments where i can feel 'phew' because i goofed off until oh-shit time, and somehow i've gotten away with it.



Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment

no. if it's just about other people's dickery then no. i mean, i do feel the reflex. i'm as contrarian and ornery as the next intj. BUT i dislike the dynamic itself because i'm as hipped on autonomy as the next intj person too. i dislike having my mental processes short-circuited by what amounts to adrenaline. and i don't consider a counter-contrarian reaction to be real autonomy.

Does it motivate you to succeed?


i hope not. i do think my answer is 'no'. i'm either motivated already to succeed or i'm not. i'm not sure how much difference gets made by someone else trying to bully me into success, whether they do it 'for my own good' or otherwise. but as i mentioned, me tricking my own self into 'having' to get it together and smarten up . . . that seems to me like a different thing.
 
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Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?
No.

I'm a simple person. I love a good discussion with rational people. I love being criticised constructively.

But insults?

They make me think the person insulting me is an idiot. The problem is people who insult others are normally feelers. And I sometimes tend to use my NT to try to understand them. In the process I treat insults as rational criticism, which is not the wisest thing to do to oneself obviously.

Failures don't normally give me confidence either. If it's a failure in my work, I can't stop till I get a good result. So I check plan B, plan C, etc. I do everything to avoid failing.


  • Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption or assessment?
  • Does it motivate you to succeed?
I can learn from failures, but I prefer learning from successes. I hate failing. My J is too strong for me not to be judgemental about my failures ;)

I've had situations in life when I needed to apply for something/ run in a competition, etc. several times to succeed. It was horrible :) I was able to motivate myself to keep trying but every failure broke my heart.

I remember getting drunk after receiving rejection letters for scholarships. (I quit alcohol totally some time ago).

I've read there's a study that shows people who are very successful are people who just take more risks. As a result they actually experience more failures - but also more successes - than other people. This makes sense but on the emotional level failure is something that's difficult for me to bear.
 

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Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?
I bite back if I get insults. Constructive criticism is fine, but you don't have a douche about it.
Failure gets me into "problem solving mode". Failure doesn't appeal to me, but the challenge of winning does.

Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
No. I am already resilient.

​Does it motivate you to succeed?
No. Challenge motivates me. Fun motivates me. Failure is just part of refining the process.
 
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  • Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?
(Regardless of whether or not, you agree with them, or think they are fair)


  • Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
  • Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
  • Does it motivate you to succeed?


Be it, in your interpersonal relationships, secularly, academically, & so on...​

What are your thoughts, & experiences?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Give me failures. I will be much better afterwards.

Add insults as cherry topping and i will conquer.

Edit: some boozes some times are mandatory

Sent sans PC
 

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  • Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?


  • Insults give me clarity -- about the other person who is trying to bait me.

    Failures give me confidence to keep trying until I get it right, or as right as I can. With things that I do, it works out to my satisfaction. With self-improvement, the same. With other people, not always. I can't fix them, nor do they want to be fixed.

    Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
    No, because then I'm not done. I have to do it again, or more.

    Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
    [/B]
    [*]Does it motivate you to succeed? Be it, in your interpersonal relationships, secularly, academically, & so on...[/INDENT]


    Yes, in all three areas -- unless insults are coming from inside a relationship. Then I will give up on the relationship when I reach the point of diminishing returns. If that person is essential to getting my work done, I would rather find someone else to work with.
 

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  • Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?
(Regardless of whether or not, you agree with them, or think they are fair)
No to insults. Those make me question the integrity of the person giving it. I do appreciate criticism. Failures give me clarity in how I can improve and get a desired result.

  • Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
  • Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
  • Does it motivate you to succeed?
If my intended result was negative, then yes. If not, then no.

Yes.

Yes.

I can be my own toughest critic, but then again, the loudest pep squad member, on my team. :laughing:
Same here.

Second example: When I got a failing grade in Chemistry, the only F, I ever got, it made me question the teacher, first of all, because he was an arrogant jerk, who hated me.
But then I was was like... ok, I'm going to ace this...in your face!
I had a very similar experience during my senior year. My class had two teachers, both hated me and would lower my grades. My only issue was I couldn't ace the test which they would grade and then lower. :mellow:
 

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I would say this very much depends on the situation.

If the negative comment or feedback was useful, accurate, and productive, and can help me improve, then yes, I find it useful and can even "enjoy" it - not in a "yay, I messed up!" kind of way, but in a "cool, now I know how to improve" kind of way. So, constructive criticism.

If it is accurate feedback or criticism, but not productive in terms of improving a situation or what I'm doing, then I don't enjoy it, but I will certainly accept it and admit to my mistakes. This doesn't particularly bother me as I am fine with owning up to my mistakes.

Now, if it's negative feedback or criticism that is not constructive, is not accurate, and does not improve a situation, THEN it will get me riled up. This actually causes me far more stress than the other two situations. I also get very frustrated by failure when I'm not sure how to fix it, and what I've been trying simply isn't working.

As an example, with my racing, while there have been legitimate reasons for my reduced pace, I am not accepting of that fact. I have spent a ridiculous amount of money and time to have spent the better part of two years "spinning my wheels" (literally and figuratively). It's a failure as far as I'm concerned. This is a failure that bothers me to my core, as some of it is mental, and there's no clear fix for that. In this case, I lost a lot of my "fight" while racing against more aggressive racers. I'm fine with my friends and people I trust, but put me in the mix with the more aggressive racers who I don't entirely trust, and I will back off and let them go too easily. I was overcoming that before all my other issues happened. Other than "doing it" there's no clear path to overcoming that kind of thing, and THAT is the kind of failure that really digs at my psych.
 

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I also get very frustrated by failure when I'm not sure how to fix it, and what I've been trying simply isn't working.

As an example, with my racing, while there have been legitimate reasons for my reduced pace, I am not accepting of that fact... It's a failure as far as I'm concerned. This is a failure that bothers me to my core, as some of it is mental, and there's no clear fix for that. In this case, I lost a lot of my "fight" while racing against more aggressive racers.
I understand this. I would not fare well in your sport because I have low tolerence for risk of injury. My question for you is this: In moto racing, aren't there levels of competition, like other sports? Might this not be a mis-match of levels, rather than overall failure?
 

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Insults? No. Not really. I think the only time I have that “I’ll show you!” reaction to an insult is if it’s 1) not an actual mean insult but a sort-of-light-hearted judgement of my skill AND (not OR) 2) it’s from a guy I have romantic interest in. Otherwise, I don’t really give a shit. Like, I think I probably don’t value others’ opinions enough to even register much of a reaction in general.

Someone else’s judgement that I am failing? Usually not, I’m not that competitive-driven. The only time I cared much was when I had a series of graded internships that I had to pass to enter in my career and my 3rd placement/supervisor was the only one out of my 3 different internships that thought at mid-term I wasn’t doing well. After we went through their expectations (because they were not clear), I was a superstar. She even remarked “oh you’re like a totally different student now!” Uh, yeah, B. Telling me what you want might have that effect!! So, in that instance I did feel the need to show that I am actually a competent individual that knows what I am doing. Other than that - meh. Again, don’t really care much what others think except for very specific situations where it will effect my life path negatively.

Failing my own expectations? Yes, depending. I think a lot about this because I am not really one to be particularly persistent or have much “grit” for things. Smart child/no-growth-mindset syndrome. I used to give up if I didn’t “get” something right away like I was used to with a lot of things growing up in school. I would not try at things that I knew would be too difficult. I did not/kind of still don’t enjoy that “challenge”. I am learning to try to at least tolerate, if not find joy, in that process of persisting to improvement to achieving.

BUT- there are times where I do naturally put in that effort and am motivated by failing and want to show myself I can do it. So I have tried to figure out what the parameters are that make me try and persist and make the effort to improve vs. not. I think I’ve narrowed it down to there’s some sort of judgement I make about X thing: I must perceive that I will achieve goal if I make the effort and persist. I also probably have some sort of effort-achievement pay off ratio that I perceive ahead of time too. In the cases where I feel like success, even if work is difficult, is achievable then I will be motivated by failure, learning from it, improving, that whole process. If I don’t have a great opinion on my odds then no, failure just makes me go “yeaaaah, not worth the work.”

Maybe a little sideways from your point but I guess that is the context that makes more of a difference to me than particularly the potential motivation of failure in and of itself.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
I think the only time I have that “I’ll show you!” reaction to an insult is if it’s 1) not an actual mean insult but a sort-of-light-hearted judgement of my skill AND (not OR) 2) it’s from a guy I have romantic interest in.
I feel the same way.
 

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No, insult and failure do not make me feel "good" or be more confident. And I've learned that when I go to that 'I'll prove them wrong' place, I end up wasting energy on an issue that didn't mean anything to me until someone brought my attention to it by denying me in some way.

The last time I did that, I ended up paying hundreds of dollars for a ballet class and only ended up with a B+ in the end. It so wasn't worth it.

I do, however, prefer constructive criticism over compliments any day.
 
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  • Do insults, or failures, ever give you a renewed sense of clarity, & confidence?
(Regardless of whether or not, you agree with them, or think they are fair)
It really depends on the insult and the circumstances, doesn't it?
If I am called an arrogant, self righteous bitch by someone because I didn't respond the way they wanted, I likely won't feel a "renewed sense of clarity and confidence", I'll feel a renewed urge to double down until they shut up.
If the insult in fact shows some thoughtful observations, evidence or analysis, I will deconstruct it first and take it into account if it withstands scrutiny. Then in that case it isn't the insult giving me clarity, it's the analysis it catalyzed.


  • Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
    Again, depends. If I'm sleep deprived and find myself slipping on the same ole banana peel, I'm not going to feel good.
    If these negative results help me realize how to do things correctly, it's this realization that makes me feel good, not the negative results per se. And if the realization could feasibly have been made without the mistake I'll just be trying not to chew myself up over it.
  • Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
    Nah...typically I just feel inadequate but push on anyway because what else can I do?
  • Does it motivate you to succeed? Be it, in your interpersonal relationships, secularly, academically, & so on...
    Nope, they actively discourage me and make me wonder why I am bothering and if I'm sure I want to continue.
    A way to subvert this is sneaking a subtle jab at the other person in the redo, or to employ malicious compliance. THAT is motivating.

What are your thoughts, & experiences?
I am my worst enemy because I need to hammer down this inadequacy every time I fail in order to continue moving. On the plus side it makes it easy to quit pointless pursuits, on the other, I give up too easily and every step forward is taxing and requires the building of momentum.
 
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Insults- no. Criticism- yes. Failure- yes.

I respond to insults with INTJ brand wit.

I prefer criticism for the fact hearing what I've done incorrectly or wrong allows me room for growth.

Failing, at first, is demoralizing. After regrouping and careful problem solving analysis, it is motivating in the sense it aids in honing in on what will actually work- growth.
 

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Do negative results, ever make you "feel good"?
Sometimes.


Does it make you resilient, like you want to defy that assumption, or assessment?
Yes and very angry.

Does it motivate you to succeed?
Yes, but not with interpersonal relationships.

What are your thoughts, & experiences?
All my accomplishments thus far came from being very pissed off.

Also:
I cry evertyme.

 
Please don't tell.


 
Also, what are insults, anyway? Lol. Most specimen(s) insults are so weak (&) corny.
 
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