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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

I really screwed the pooch with an ISFJ and I'd like your input.

We "dated" for several months, but while I wasn't thinking long-term, it seemed like she was. I kept dropping hints that since she was going off to a new college and I was leaving the country in a year, that perhaps this wasn't the best of ideas. I certainly didn't treat her as well as I would have if she were my girlfriend, but she treated me so well that I couldn't muster the usual INTJ ruthlessness and cut the relationship off. She was always initiating contact and coming over to my place... it was intoxicating.

After a while she began to look elsewhere while still hanging out as friends and hooking up. Her temperature towards me began to fall a little (laughing less at my jokes and pranks, breaking dates, etc) and I slowly, slowly, slowly (I'm an INTJ keep in mind) began to realize that I had fallen in love without realizing it and that I had pretty much lost her. She found a new guy and is dating him currently. I reacted in typical INTJ fashion: Freeze Out, which was a huge no-no. In my emotional distress and severe, atypical loneliness, I wound up sleeping with one of her "best friends," who had been attracted to me the whole time (not excusing what I did, but she initiated the seduction).

I've reconciled with the fact that my chances again with her are extremely low. But, have you, as an ISFJ, ever been in a similar situation with a happy ending? My plan is to just wait it out until she breaks up with her current guy and see if she still has feelings towards me. In either case, I know I've royally fucked up and have since resolved to be there for her if she ever needs anything. Hoping for friendship/relationship, but expecting nothing. Any input would be great. And feel free to yell at me for having acted like an emotionally insensitive d-bag.

Addendum: I've since fixed my insensitive behaviors (the stupid crap I would pull when we were "together") and have been, as much as an INTJ can be, emotionally sensitive. Predictably, when I ended my freeze out, she hated me utterly for about a month and I endured cheap shots, low blows, and her own freeze out. She's since warmed up a bit from "undisguised hate" to "benign tolerance." For what it's worth, I can still make her laugh (alot), but she begins grinning or laughing and then catches herself doing so and immediately stops with a sigh.
 

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My input on INTJ's with ISFJ's is simple:

Run.

Run as fast and as far as you can. When you get done running, don't turn around, run some more. If you're tempted to go back, find a good solid rock and beat yourself over the head with it until you are bloody. This should give you a fair approximation of life for an INTJ/ISFJ pair.

Your mileage may vary, but in my experience, INTJ/ISFJ is a powder keg.
 

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Given that I've never experienced this sort of situation, regarding friendship I'll say that, if I'm angry with someone, when I can let myself laugh at their jokes, it means they're not in the hate hate loathe list any more (It's an exceedingly short one usually) probably that I'm willing to give them another chance. That said it can also mean I'm exhausted by acting in such a way, I can't emotionally continue acting in such a way and if I had more energy I probably would continue and a grudge and lack of trust is still there. But laughter is possibly the thing I hate the most to give to people I'm angry with. But relationships are a different ball game to general friendship.

That said I generally want to believe others are nice - I avoid the few exceptions to that rule, people who scare me. However certain actions can permanently alter my willingness to trust myself with that person.

If I've seen a person use underhand tactics, mind games, displaying open cruelty to the point of sadistic pleasure in making another feel weak and belittled I'm disinclined to trust them in the future.

Feeling like all cards are on the table; knowing where I am with a person is possibly the single most important thing for me. But that's realated to enneagramishness a fair chunk - (6w7).

That said, I don't think there's one person I fully trust. Not even myself to be frank. There are maybe two people I considere to be essentially good enough people to potentially trust, but at present it's gonna take a long time to be sure of anything.

Essentially trust is important, and hard and slow to gain.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Interesting, thanks for the input.

I guess I'll just lay low and keep my distance for a while and let her initiate a reconnect. Would an ISFJ feel that the ball's in her court, so to speak, or would she expect me to make the effort?
 

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I'm not sure, it's possibly tied in with how much self-confidence she's got. Maybe she wants to set the tone for your relationship (friendship at present), maybe she's happy with her boyfriend, maybe she wants the air to be cleared, maybe she has no idea how you feel, romantic feelings aside. I'm not sure anyone but her can know. But while she's with her boyfriend maybe just keep things friendly - show that you're not jumping on her with how you feel; that if she's happy, you don't want to intrude on that? - let her know you're still her friend...though acting as if nothing's happened can be iffy...

I don't know really x_x. You're probably more qualified to answer these questions than ISFJs who don't know her.
 

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The dreaded ISFJ/INTx combo.

Maybe while she is with this other guy you can take some time to figure out if you are willing and up for the challenge of dealing with an ISFJ, especially given your type (this said with very limited experience, but enough to avoid INTP's from now on.....). It would probably mean a lot of work, a lot of misunderstandings etc etc. BUT if you do come to the conclusion you want her, I wish you the best. The positive is that you know your type and hers, and that will help you out when things become sticky.

If someone had done wrong by me, I would leave it up to them to decide if they wanted to contact me. I don't think I would be making that move. Especially b/c of how she was before this whole debacle started-she was always the one initiating. Liminality makes some wonderful points, one of which is yes, as you are the one who actually knows her, you are best qualified to answer these questions. So maybe what I am saying does not apply.

And one more thing: Women need to be pursued. If she does exit this other relationship and you do still love her, you need to be the one pursuing her.

This is all in my own humble opinion, mind you.

Good luck, I wish you and her the best.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If I've seen a person use underhand tactics, mind games, displaying open cruelty to the point of sadistic pleasure in making another feel weak and belittled I'm disinclined to trust them in the future.

Feeling like all cards are on the table; knowing where I am with a person is possibly the single most important thing for me. But that's realated to enneagramishness a fair chunk - (6w7).

That said, I don't think there's one person I fully trust. Not even myself to be frank. There are maybe two people I considere to be essentially good enough people to potentially trust, but at present it's gonna take a long time to be sure of anything.

Essentially trust is important, and hard and slow to gain.
Well one of my favorite things to do was play pranks on her, which she enjoyed (or faked enjoying), but I'm wondering if she is extremely suspicious of me now because of my joking nature. One of the most adorable moments was when she asked me innocently, "are you messing with me?" She seems to take my overtures at reconnecting as insincere or out of character. Truthfully, they are a bit out of character. I think I'm acting too formal and "nice" as opposed to spontaneous and impish, which is how I normally acted towards her. When I do something nice for her now she tends to revel in it appreciatively, but then I see trepidation dawn on her face and she closes off. Same with jokes; she laughs, catches herself, and then closes off. Before, she would let the good feelings ride and we'd both be really satisfied.

It sounds like what you and Rowan are saying is that I need to demonstrate consistency in order to win her trust back?

There are only two things I am truly afraid of here:

1) The time and patience required to turn this thing around is going to create unbearable amounts of resentment towards her.

2) That in the process of coping, I'd just move on and we'd never even get to sit down and work out our misunderstandings. I might be better off in the long run, but I'd really hate to see our relationship, which what was once really beautiful, die of neglect and entropy.
 

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I'm wondering if she is extremely suspicious of me now because of my joking nature. One of the most adorable moments was when she asked me innocently, "are you messing with me?" She seems to take my overtures at reconnecting as insincere or out of character.
I was just talking about this with someone the other day. If I can't know how to take someone's words at face value I can get really tense about being around that person. If I'm being teased I have to know I am, rather than feeling set up to be laughed at if I didn't realise the other person was messing with me. If you used to be really jokey and playful and are now acting differently I can see how that could start this sort of tension -- if it were me I'd be thinking you were playing some sort of game with me and I would be suspicious, especially since pranks used to be a specialty of yours.

I don't think you should try to be anyone you're not, and while she's with this other person just consistently be her sincere friend. While she's with someone else you have a bit of time to try and regain the friendship.
 
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1) The time and patience required to turn this thing around is going to create unbearable amounts of resentment towards her.
To me this sentence speaks volumes and exudes foreboding. I think you should ask yourself if this is really what you want. And then ask yourself again. And again. :frustrating:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
To me this sentence speaks volumes and exudes foreboding. I think you should ask yourself if this is really what you want. And then ask yourself again. And again. :frustrating:
I know and I have. But the alternative is to be ruthless and cut her out of my life forever. And forever is not an exaggeration. For a number of reasons, after next year I would literally never see this person again in my life if we don't patch things up in the upcoming months. It upsets me that I might not even get a chance to see her in the upcoming months; that forever might have already started.

Believe me, I've had to cut people out of my life before and once they are out they are never, ever in again. I had an ex basically offer me sex and I turned a polite, but cold shoulder. This is what's keeping me from crossing the Rubicon, knowing that I have a limited window which can never be opened again.

In essence, this is the whole reason why I came to this part of the forum: To ask ISFJ's if this thing could be turned around. If it can't, I just have to move on.
 

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I know and I have. But the alternative is to be ruthless and cut her out of my life forever. And forever is not an exaggeration. For a number of reasons, after next year I would literally never see this person again in my life if we don't patch things up in the upcoming months. It upsets me that I might not even get a chance to see her in the upcoming months; that forever might have already started.

Believe me, I've had to cut people out of my life before and once they are out they are never, ever in again. I had an ex basically offer me sex and I turned a polite, but cold shoulder. This is what's keeping me from crossing the Rubicon, knowing that I have a limited window which can never be opened again.

In essence, this is the whole reason why I came to this part of the forum: To ask ISFJ's if this thing could be turned around. If it can't, I just have to move on.

If you want it to turn around bad enough, I believe it can be turned around. Keep in mind, ISFJ's are extremely forgiving (especially with people they care about), understanding, and kind people. I would say your chances are pretty high, but then I remember what you wrote about having sex with her best friend. WHY DID YOU DO THAT? haha. That was a rhetorical question btw.

I hope things work out for the best!
 

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If you want it to turn around bad enough, I believe it can be turned around. Keep in mind, ISFJ's are extremely forgiving (especially with people they care about), understanding, and kind people. I would say your chances are pretty high, but then I remember what you wrote about having sex with her best friend. WHY DID YOU DO THAT? haha. That was a rhetorical question btw.
Thank you for the reply.

At this point I've decided to close this chapter of my life. I haven't talked to her in several weeks and I suspect this might continue on indefinitely. I've resolved not to initiate contact anymore; I tried for about a month straight and she's resisted all overtures (though she did become, on average, much friendlier and respectful after a while). Her wild mood swings were getting to me; one day almost reverentially affectionate, the next day sullen and reactive. It has to be noted that she was under extreme stress during this period of time. She would wake up at 6, travel an hour to work, work until 7:30, then travel another hour back home. She worked 6 days a week. Bottom line: I tried and was rejected.

Either way, I've since filled my schedule with productive things to do and I feel much better than I did several months ago.
 
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