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Discussion Starter #21
When ISTPS are watching movies that could trigger emotions like sadness etc - do you feel that emotion? LIke if the protagonist dies in the movie... do you just think about the scene, or do you feel the emotion within it?
 

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Discussion Starter #22
I can't imagine how I would look to a future spouse. It's funny because I can spend an entire weekend languishing in my room listening to sad music and wallowing in my feelings. But do I talk about it with anyone? Practically never.

I don't like talking about negative things just for the sake of talking about them. It dampens the mood and usually doesn't lead to anything good (i.e. the underlying issue being solved). I find when I do open up to people I have to navigate around their feelings and issues on top of mine, and it's not something I want to do. For example, being very careful with my words so I don't accidentally offend them or trigger some emotional issue while I'm basically venting. It's stressful and annoying. I've tried to tell my mom about some problems I had when I was younger and she didn't want to hear it at all, because she took it to mean she was a bad parent and she got very upset. Or another time I tried to talk about something personal with a friend and she gave me a lecture on how to word things better so as to avoid misunderstandings. It's like every time I say something the person listening automatically adds unnecessary layers of meaning and I have to purposely qualify every single statement just so that doesn't happen. And even then they never fully get what I mean anyway. It's too much work, especially when I'm already stressed.

I don't want to sound like I'm judging anybody. I've also been noticing I'm not good at listening at times. I tune out easily and sometimes I find I didn't hear a big chunk of what was said because I was busy paying attention to my own thoughts. I also have limited bandwidth for caring about other people's problems, so unless I really care about someone I'm probably not going to take the time to hear them out on personal stuff more than once. And whenever I do make sympathetic faces and sounds it's 80% fake - I mostly just do it to be polite. I only feel empathy in very specific situations, like if I've faced the same issue before or if I feel really connected to that person. I assume other people are the same way and I don't feel comfortable burdening them or encroaching on their time.

I think there's also a gender difference. Boys generally aren't "trained" to feel their feelings or delve deep into them. Girls grow up talking out their feelings with each other. I can see how male ISTPs, with the low Fe and even lower Fi, can naturally grow up ignoring and repressing their emotions and even feel as though there is nothing there to delve into. In other words, men tend to have lower emotional intelligence and if you combine that with ISTP traits, you often find ISTP men who are very very limited in how they experience and express emotions.


Interesting. Ditto to the bolded part
 

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I am an INFJ who has been married many years to an ISTP. As long as he doesn’t invalidate my feelings when I express them (to avoid his biting sarcasm at times, I learned not to “dump” those on him), I am okay with him not talking about his feelings. I actually prefer not having to worry about and take care of my spouse’s feelings (too many other people in my life expect that from me). We have always enjoyed many of the same activities, so we have a lot in common in that regard (this seems to validate what Socionics terms the “activity relationship” between the two types). Our sense of humor is also pretty compatible (I enjoy our INTJ son most in this regard—because we are both Ni-doms, we really feed off of each other’s sense of humor).

We are both very independent and give each other space.

The area of most friction for us has been neither of us likes to take care of things on the domestic front and I felt overburdened with and resentful when most of that fell on me when we were raising young children. He tended to be a “workaholic” when trying to establish his career. He was also raised by an ISFJ mother who catered to her children's every need, so I think he was a bit spoiled in that regard and expected the same from me.

There are times I would like be able to talk with him about intellectual and abstract subjects that he’s just not interested in. I have a couple of intuitive friends in my life that fill that need. His mostly easygoing and practical nature keeps me grounded though (being married to someone who is a worrier or someone who is too critical and demanding would make me anxious).

There are also times when I would like to know how he feels about me in all these regards, but I think as long as he has his space and I am content, he is happy.
 

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Oh boy. There's a lot to unpack here. Like. A lot a lot.

First, as usual, I sincerely question the amount of understanding of both MBTI and Enneagram that's actually present. I don't mean that meanly, but it probably came off mean. There's just a lot misconceptions I see about both that makes me want to bang my head on the table. MBTI is just about the default setting on the way a brain takes in and process information. You can change the settings if you need to, or sometimes there's triggers that automatically flip the switch on something, but we're only talking about the default setting for it. We can use Fi if we need to, just like an ESTJ use Se when they need to. The major issue is that we just don't need to 99.99% of the time. Enneagram is about driving motivations and fears. While the two combined can give a more accurate representation of a person, they are completely unrelated.

Second, to answer your question in a way you surely did not intend... Our inner world is vastly different than yours. Expanding on the Fi comment: we don't use it because our internal Opinions(Feelings) rarely outweigh our internal Reasons(Thinking). To us, making a decision is based entirely things we know to be true. But in this sense, true doesn't necessarily mean "true". Things are a little more black and white when discussing hypotheticals for us, as evidence by our personal "truths".

The example I always use is the runway train and there's two tracks, who dies? moral question. My answer is my truth. It's not something that's up for discussion, you will not sway me from my inherent truth. (My answer is what side has the most children, as in, there could be a million Gen Xers on a track, and one child on the other and I would slaughter the million... because of my internal reason: older people have had their chance.) And the same can be said of almost every other philosophical question. We have our answers in concrete and until you can change my reasoning, you'll never change my truth.

Third) How we define are truth is by using Se, the external, concrete Facts(Sensing) of the world, distilled, filtered and then compared to and superimposed on the Patterns(iNtuition) we've internalized about the world. These two things combined is what creates our daydreaming scenarios. I know that at least for me, and just about everyone on this forum I've managed to talk to about such things, we sense (in the literal sense) something in our physical world that essentially creates this rapid, branching chain of thoughts until we find something that breaks our Patterns, or else leads to a Pattern we know to be pleasing.

Example: oh, it's 40 deg (F) out. Much to cold to go riding. Still not as cold as that ice storm that one time though. 60 on Saturday? Little cold, but definitely not miserable. Now, if it were a beautiful 70 degree day? *imagines the warm skin and open road followed by what feels like a billion microvariations of the same exact "scene"* Oh yea, I'd call off work sick (my boss would probably actually just give me that day off and tell me to go riding).

That all translates as Cold/Fact > Miserable/Pattern (pattern confirmation in ice storm) 60/Fact > much better/Pattern (checked against other pattern that 70 is prime temperature).... Pleasurable Pattern locked in, commence deviation scenarios to follow the pattern until it breaks and why.

All that ties into this very strange way of thinking that just doesn't cater to philosophical thinking. I mean, my brain decided the train thing as a simple intake of the fact that there's a not a single baby on the other track, and there's one on the other, distilled by the pattern of old people had their chance at a good life, a baby is a rather innocent thing, also there's over population to consider anyway.... plus think about the high paying jobs that just opened up to let some of my generation actually get a chance at stability in their lives... equals my truth that saving the baby is the right call. And that truth will never be changed in a million years until you change the patterns I've internalized about the world. All of them.

In the case of the motorcycle, the distilled Facts is what plays into my personal Reasons for why I would call off work. It's not because "Because I/others place some value on XYZ" but it's because "Riding is fucking amazing and it's been months since I've been able to ride comfortably"

Now, as for how you get us to open up about our feelings? Destroy the patterns we've internalized. Which can range from simple "my idea of a manly man doesn't talk about emotions" to "there's never been a single person in my life that has ever gave a flyin fuck about my emotions or wants" to "every single time I've opened up, I've had it thrown in my face"

Patterns you may or may not reinforce accidentally.

I tried to talk to her, but she immediately started talking about something else and we never got back to my topic. > She doesn't care what I have to say (just like everyone else).

Basically, you just got to really give him your undivided attention, and make sure you follow up if you get interrupted before he finishes. Just keep positively reinforcing the good pattern that you do care.

Also... At least personally... ya'll tend to imagine there's a lot more emotions in our heads than are actually there. I mean, if I meet the new neighbor across the street and you immediately ask me what my first impression is: well, smiled just like my dad > hated/liked my dad = negative/positive opinion of Fred... but it could just as easily be: Facts break Patterns. Error. ErRoR. eRrOr. "Idk... he seems like aight enough guy, but who knows right? Could be Jeffrey Dahmer, could be Saint Theresa.... Guess we'll find out, huh?"

Once you start asking questions that verge into territory where there's such a massive disconnect between my Patterns and Facts that you're essentially asking me to filter virus through sand... I'm gonna be indecisive, or ambivalent, or completely apathetic to the subject until I've been given a new Pattern that can be applied, or else change the facts until it's something my Patterns have something to fit.

As for OPs last line... An immature ISTP, sure. But we temper our Reasons(Thinking) with other people's Opinions/Values/Norms(Feelings).

Just because I want to call off work to ride my motorcycle doesn't mean I'm going to because that's something society/my fiance says is a shit excuse to call off work (even if my boss thinks that's a perfectly acceptable excuse as long as that's not abused)
 

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My husband definitely has an inner world and is often time inside his head - he enjoys daydreaming and would randomly laugh aloud when something funny crosses his mind , I’m unsure of what’s exactly going on in there but when he does share it - it’s usually something pertaining to his work( a project he’s designing ) or remembering something that somebody else did that was out of the odd - he took our daughter out fishing and she grabbed the fish by the tail and chased me with it when they got home from their fishing trip . Pretty sure he plays with thoughts in his mind but I imagine it much different than the multiple trains of thoughts that are running in mine . I know his thoughts are more visual than audio bc I recalled doing a thinking experiment survey where I asked him about how his mind run - visual / audio - what sense he could recall- what trains of thought or thoughts are running whether it’s singular or multiple and he was quite intrigued with answering those questions- it’s hard for me to imagine a person regardless of type without any inner world - I mean our mind is always running

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My husband definitely has an inner world and is often time inside his head - he enjoys daydreaming and would randomly laugh aloud when something funny crosses his mind , I’m unsure of what’s exactly going on in there but when he does share it - it’s usually something pertaining to his work( a project he’s designing ) or remembering something that somebody else did that was out of the odd - he took our daughter out fishing and she grabbed the fish by the tail and chased me with it when they got home from their fishing trip . Pretty sure he plays with thoughts in his mind but I imagine it much different than the multiple trains of thoughts that are running in mine . I know his thoughts are more visual than audio bc I recalled doing a thinking experiment survey where I asked him about how his mind run - visual / audio - what sense he could recall- what trains of thought or thoughts are running whether it’s singular or multiple and he was quite intrigued with answering those questions- it’s hard for me to imagine a person regardless of type without any inner world - I mean our mind is always running

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Yes! Though, we (at least, I) often have multiple thought trains running with throttles to the stops 24/7. I can have two or three inner monologues accompanied by an abstract thought, and a visual thought/memory. From what I've gathered over the years here tho, is that a lot of us have a single dedicated thought train that is just inherently ALWAYS there to the point that sometimes we kinda tune it out. It's still there, ever present, ever lurking... we just choose not to look at it. For me, that's the theme song to Red Alert 2 and the song Megalovania from Undertale... As well as a never ending John Woo style stickman fight as an abstract thought.

But we do play with out thoughts (break the patterns) quite frequently.

Although, I did recently learn (and was extreme shook) that some people do not have an inner monologue at all. They think in purely abstract thoughts. Which is fascinating in a sideshow kind of way to me.
 

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When ISTPS are watching movies that could trigger emotions like sadness etc - do you feel that emotion? LIke if the protagonist dies in the movie... do you just think about the scene, or do you feel the emotion within it?
For me it depends how into the movie I am, normally no as I know it's a movie but in real life that could be totally different
 

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When ISTPS are watching movies that could trigger emotions like sadness etc - do you feel that emotion? LIke if the protagonist dies in the movie... do you just think about the scene, or do you feel the emotion within it?
Yes, it can happen.
 

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And if they do, what goes on in there? Seriously, I feel like ISTPS come across as being emotionless and lacking in depth, a bit? Like...the ones I know (husband included) don't share their emotions much, don't talk about their inner insecurities and vulnerabilities, barely want to discuss their thoughts and plans, and don't seem to venture much into spirituality and thoughts of morality and human existence. So just what goes on down there?

I just feel like there's a sense of superficiality with Istps...just like cruising through life and doing whatever feels good, without giving anything else much thought.
Everyone has an inner world, ISTPs just don’t let it consume them in the same way that NTs or NFs do. We like to focus on here and now, and a lot of that gives us excitement and makes us feel content. Do I spend time deep in my thoughts? Yeah, I do at times but I’d much rather be out hiking or just taking in the world around me. I think our inner world is more like “how can I do this” and then acting instead of the “what if” sequence
 

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When ISTPS are watching movies that could trigger emotions like sadness etc - do you feel that emotion? LIke if the protagonist dies in the movie... do you just think about the scene, or do you feel the emotion within it?
I think this varies from person to person. I normally don’t feel any emotion watching movies. Even things like horror movies, I’m usually never really affected by them (my friend asked me to walk her to the bathroom after we watched one). I guess it’s because it’s not real. Now, there are documentaries that could trigger emotion in me, usually anger or something at the circumstances of the people in the doc, like something inhumane or an injustice.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
I think this varies from person to person. I normally don’t feel any emotion watching movies. Even things like horror movies, I’m usually never really affected by them (my friend asked me to walk her to the bathroom after we watched one). I guess it’s because it’s not real. Now, there are documentaries that could trigger emotion in me, usually anger or something at the circumstances of the people in the doc, like something inhumane or an injustice.
Everyone has an inner world, ISTPs just don’t let it consume them in the same way that NTs or NFs do. We like to focus on here and now, and a lot of that gives us excitement and makes us feel content. Do I spend time deep in my thoughts? Yeah, I do at times but I’d much rather be out hiking or just taking in the world around me. I think our inner world is more like “how can I do this” and then acting instead of the “what if” sequence
Cool....interesting...
 

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And if they do, what goes on in there? Seriously, I feel like ISTPS come across as being emotionless and lacking in depth, a bit? Like...the ones I know (husband included) don't share their emotions much, don't talk about their inner insecurities and vulnerabilities, barely want to discuss their thoughts and plans, and don't seem to venture much into spirituality and thoughts of morality and human existence. So just what goes on down there?

I just feel like there's a sense of superficiality with Istps...just like cruising through life and doing whatever feels good, without giving anything else much thought.
Hmm, ppl always say I'm easy to approach, easy to get along with / friendly despite me not sharing emotions much. I always get told that I have a calming/relaxing effect on people. I admit I deal with my insecurities and emotional states alone, by myself. I do have emotions tho, I just suck at expressing them. In terms of emotions I like listening to music for example which maintains certain moods I enjoy, stuff like:


I do discuss my ideas and thoughts tho, a lot of the time with ENTP-ish enthusiasm.. but I think most spirituality is just a coping mechanism and I find Jung's ideas about man's inner world to be more interesting. The collective unconscious and it's archetypes are fascinating.. I tend to debate philosophy with NT types as well, which is fun. I think philosophy is much more interesting, but this is not something one can talk about just with anyone.. who is going to just sit down with me and chat about transcendental idealism?
 

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I’m a ISTP married to an FJ. We are nothing alike and she would tell you her life is like living alone. We have nothing in common, therefore almost nothing to discuss or share.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I’m a ISTP married to an FJ. We are nothing alike and she would tell you her life is like living alone. We have nothing in common, therefore almost nothing to discuss or share.
Hmmmm.. I'm sorry to hear that. What drew you guys to each other in the first place? Can you elaborate on what the major differences between you are?
 

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Hmmmm.. I'm sorry to hear that. What drew you guys to each other in the first place? Can you elaborate on what the major differences between you are?
I am the root of the dilemma. My co-conspirators were immaturity and biology. A silent contributor was circumstance.

I was an infantry soldier during the Vietnam War. My future was not looking too promising. She had green eyes and big jugs, and she looked like a biologically fun time to me. She was in a tough spot in her life. As far as I was concerned, I had nothing to lose. We met at a military post when I was there for a week. A true ISTP using little forethought, we got married. She became pregnant at the first mating.

There were many flaws and much hardship during the next 50 years. She is an ESFJ and intensely true to type. Her accomplishments in life were limited to social activities in person, by phone or social media. The concept of education, work or a career never crossed her mind. When I approached her on the subject she informed me she didn’t want to work because she “might miss something.” Something referred to a social event of some type or variety, which meant the opportunity to talk. The talking is incessant and social activities are her first priority. Her other passions are walking around the block for miles at a time or interfering in other people’s lives, as in soap opera dramas.

For practical purposes she has been a freeloader on the free ride through life program, a self-serving parasite, irresponsible, and devoted to communication and frolic. I was happiest when I had at least one continent and one ocean between us. I would have ditched her in a New York nanosecond if she could have been a capable parent, but that was not the case. I stayed to insure our children had a future, and that part of life worked out fine.

Now, in retirement, the best I can manage is to put her on a cruise ship and hope for the best.

How would she see me? Uncommunicative, sullen, disinterested etc. Fill in the blanks and you would likely be right. As in Aesop’s famed fables, the ant thinks very little of the fiddle playing grasshopper. Loathing contempt might be an apt descriptor.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
I am the root of the dilemma. My co-conspirators were immaturity and biology. A silent contributor was circumstance.

I was an infantry soldier during the Vietnam War. My future was not looking too promising. She had green eyes and big jugs, and she looked like a biologically fun time to me. She was in a tough spot in her life. As far as I was concerned, I had nothing to lose. We met at a military post when I was there for a week. A true ISTP using little forethought, we got married. She became pregnant at the first mating.

There were many flaws and much hardship during the next 50 years. She is an ESFJ and intensely true to type. Her accomplishments in life were limited to social activities in person, by phone or social media. The concept of education, work or a career never crossed her mind. When I approached her on the subject she informed me she didn’t want to work because she “might miss something.” Something referred to a social event of some type or variety, which meant the opportunity to talk. The talking is incessant and social activities are her first priority. Her other passions are walking around the block for miles at a time or interfering in other people’s lives, as in soap opera dramas.

For practical purposes she has been a freeloader on the free ride through life program, a self-serving parasite, irresponsible, and devoted to communication and frolic. I was happiest when I had at least one continent and one ocean between us. I would have ditched her in a New York nanosecond if she could have been a capable parent, but that was not the case. I stayed to insure our children had a future, and that part of life worked out fine.

Now, in retirement, the best I can manage is to put her on a cruise ship and hope for the best.

How would she see me? Uncommunicative, sullen, disinterested etc. Fill in the blanks and you would likely be right. As in Aesop’s famed fables, the ant thinks very little of the fiddle playing grasshopper. Loathing contempt might be an apt descriptor.
Oh, wow.....:unsure: ..:apologetic:. ..that's a lot of contempt indeed. Doesn't sound fun at all...but thanks for sharing. Some sites say ISTPS and ESFJs are compatible, but I've never thought they would be a good match, based on what I see. My husband is ISTP and our daughter is ESFJ and so is my mother. Even though they get on fairly well as far as family relationships go, I can see how their personalities would grate on each other. The Istp often finds the Esfj to be overly emotional and too 'stuck' on traditions and formalities and doing things the 'proper way' - or they might find them to be too chatty about things the Istp is not interested in (e.g people's affairs), and the Esfj often finds the Istp be too cold and detached and unsentimental (and nonvalidating of the Esfj's emotions,) and a bit of rebel when it comes to following social conventions. So yeah... I see those conflicts playing out in my family and whenever I see Istps and Esfjs together, generally, so am not suprised at the differences. Still sucks, though.:unsure: I hope that both of you have good 'escapes' and sources of companionship, otherwise.
 

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Oh, wow.....:unsure: ..:apologetic:. ..that's a lot of contempt indeed. Doesn't sound fun at all...but thanks for sharing. Some sites say ISTPS and ESFJs are compatible, but I've never thought they would be a good match, based on what I see. My husband is ISTP and our daughter is ESFJ and so is my mother. Even though they get on fairly well as far as family relationships go, I can see how their personalities would grate on each other. The Istp often finds the Esfj to be overly emotional and too 'stuck' on traditions and formalities and doing things the 'proper way' - or they might find them to be too chatty about things the Istp is not interested in (e.g people's affairs), and the Esfj often finds the Istp be too cold and detached and unsentimental (and nonvalidating of the Esfj's emotions,) and a bit of rebel when it comes to following social conventions. So yeah... I see those conflicts playing out in my family and whenever I see Istps and Esfjs together, generally, so am not suprised at the differences. Still sucks, though.:unsure: I hope that both of you have good 'escapes' and sources of companionship, otherwise.
I don’t mind responding to your question. The process is nearly over at this point. While enduring this hell on earth, I made my choice. Kids first, and no hard feelings over that choice.

What was most difficult was meeting delightful women along the way who would have made great partners. And what was most irritating was to see a human lifetime wasted. Call me naive if you like, but I think lives are to be lived in some productive manner that contributes in some fashion to society and the common good. It is not, in my opinion, to be an 80 year junket to fantasy island.

I blame no one. Lesson learned. And beyond choosing the evening’s menu, we have nothing to discuss.
 
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