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If yes, does that mean you’re not a 9.
If no, do you think this is because you don’t like confrontation or do you think this is because you handle conflict in Avery diplomatic approach?
 

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I feel like conflict is actually more of a 6 issue than a 9 issue... you know, the question of, "Do I take action or don't I? Do I stand up for myself or do I comply?" I don't know what I would call the issue 9 has, though... It's more about feeling anger toward others yet repressing it in order to maintain a (very often false) sense of peace, to the point of feeling as though your anger doesn't matter. I think I might call it more "indifference" than "fear of conflict," personally. It's not a fear of truly losing the other so much as it is a feeling that they matter more than you do... at least that's how it feels for me. I often don't even realize just how angry I really am...in fact I usually don't...until it boils over or I literally become sick with it (I've got horrible stomach and intestinal problems for that reason... a manifestation of being a gut type, I suppose).
 

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Life is full of conflict, whether you show it or not.

If someone walks on eggshells to avoid upsetting someone, it's still a conflict with that person. You both have differing ideas, and you take action to solve it—even though it's a passive and avoidant action. 9s tend to not confront conflict head-on, but it isn't from a lack of conflict. The symptoms of conflict are just unobservable. To me, any disruption of my peace is some kind of conflict.
 

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For me, it's this sensation that I should be more mature than I am, more self-effacing than I am, more generous than I am... It's not that I mean to deny my feelings and hide from conflict. I just try to push myself to be a better person than I actually am, and paradoxically it's my effort to be kind that leads to me feeling undervalued and taken advantage of. And that anger does cause me to be passive-aggressive and moody, sometimes.

So yeah, that's my story. I'm a 9, but I have plenty of conflicts. Other people just don't know about them, usually...
 

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I've noticed sometimes others will literally make the conflict for me, or mirror it at me. If it happens when I am not ready to handle it, I might get angry by mistake. Or I'll ignore. Other times I will address conflict. Sometimes you just have to.
 

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I have no idea what Psyche is talking about... Complying is more of a compliant type thing (1,2,6). I have a 9w8 friend that isn't afraid of conflict but she'd rather avoid it. If her nerve has been tested then she has to make sure that person learns not to mess with her again.
 

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If yes, does that mean you’re not a 9.
I'm argumentative in a way some can find contrary and there are a lot of non-9s in my life who are less inclined to debate issues than I, but I don't see it as conflict, it comes from interest and intellect, not emotion. An ENTP who doesn't thrive with debate is a sad ENTP =(

If no, do you think this is because you don’t like confrontation or do you think this is because you handle conflict in Avery diplomatic approach?
For 9s there's generally an element of both. Imo the former is inherently unhealthy, the latter depends on other factors.

Disliking confrontation;
Ask a non-9 if disagreeing/arguing with someone is the same as having an issue with that person and the answer would be no, they're separate things, ask a 9 if it feels that way to them and the answer can change, disagreeing can feel personal and has an underlying fear that it will lead to rejection, so the approach is one of avoiding, this is done through not holding strong opinions and ignoring needs.

Conflict is not the fear, separation is, as is having needs that aren't acceptable and lead to personal rejection. When a 9 can accept that disagreeing with someone isn't akin to rejection, conflict doesn't need to be a scary place. So yes, 9s can engage in conflict.

Diplomatic approach;
A diplomatic approach is pretty standard for 9s, we are tuned in to other people's needs and see all points of view, understanding where someone is coming from makes finding that middle ground easy. Outside of angsy teen years we're unlikely to be the kind of people who get in a stand up yelling match as that kind of situation involves a desire to push your view and either ignore the other pov or feel they are ignoring yours so you must yell louder to be heard, 9s will hear the other pov and attempt to convey theirs in manner that shows they understand where the other person is coming from.

This approach does minimise conflict or at least expedite the process.
 

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I have no idea what Psyche is talking about... Complying is more of a compliant type thing (1,2,6). I have a 9w8 friend that isn't afraid of conflict but she'd rather avoid it. If her nerve has been tested then she has to make sure that person learns not to mess with her again.
If in a conflict one person is expressing their pov, and the other convinces themselves they don't have one or it's not worth the debate, they end up complying through default.

In this context, complying for 9s is about numbing ones needs, pretending they don't exist.

To a 9 that approach doesn't feel like avoiding conflict, it's an internal justification not to care. When you can automatically see the other person's pov and they appear to have a strong opinion the reaction for a 9 is often to give up their own needs, however, that can be painful so it's not about pushing them to one side, it's about shutting it off and convincing yourself you really don't care. It's where our anger comes from.


 

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If in a conflict one person is expressing their pov, and the other convinces themselves they don't have one or it's not worth the debate, they end up complying through default.

In this context, complying for 9s is about numbing ones needs, pretending they don't exist.

To a 9 that approach doesn't feel like avoiding conflict, it's an internal justification not to care. When you can automatically see the other person's pov and they appear to have a strong opinion the reaction for a 9 is often to give up their own needs, however, that can be painful so it's not about pushing them to one side, it's about shutting it off and convincing yourself you really don't care. It's where our anger comes from.


That sounds very 9 and doesn't take the 8 wing into account at all.
 

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That sounds very 9 and doesn't take the 8 wing into account at all.
The wing is irrelevant, it doesn't override the core, the inclination to give up one's needs is an integral part of type 9 and an area we need to focus on for growth.

I say this as a 9 with a very clear 8 wing.

Observing the outward behaviour of a 9 will not clue you in to the fears and motivators, read up on Holy Love.
 

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The wing is irrelevant, it doesn't override the core, the inclination to give up one's needs is an integral part of type 9 and an area we need to focus on for growth.
So you're basically implying that a 9w8 could never feel the need to argue if they are being tested? What nonsense.

I say this as a 9 with a very clear 8 wing.
You sound like a 9w1 actually. No 9w8 says this other than you.

Observing the outward behaviour of a 9 will not clue you in to the fears and motivators, read up on Holy Love.
This is the second time that i've been told to 'read up' on something. I'm one of the few that bothers to read up about it in this community that filled with newbs. You should read up on Holy Truth since you clearly lack a lot of it.
 

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So you're basically implying that a 9w8 could never feel the need to argue if they are being tested? What nonsense.
What nonsense indeed, I implied no such thing. You're talking behaviour, I'm talking motivation, focusing on the former is using the enneagram wrong.

You sound like a 9w1 actually. No 9w8 says this other than you.
How amusing.

bundleofraindrops: psyche is wrong, cause my friend is fierce
sonny: psyche is making a valid point, here's what she may mean
bundleofraindrops: imma gonna ignore you cause my view as a non-9 is totes correct and you must be mistyped cause I don't like what you're saying.

*slow clap*

This is the second time that i've been told to 'read up' on something. I'm one of the few that bothers to read up about it in this community that filled with newbs. You should read up on Holy Truth since you clearly lack a lot of it.
You have literally come into the 9 forum and told not one, but two 9s, that we're wrong based on your antidote evidence of observing the behaviour of one friend you consider a 9. I have to presume you're intentionally trolling cause the failure to distinguish behaviour of an individual with the core motivations of the type is plain stupid.

TLDR: You're wrong. Ba-bye.
 

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What nonsense indeed, I implied no such thing. You're talking behaviour, I'm talking motivation, focusing on the former is using the enneagram wrong.
I'm describing what the experts say about 9w8s. They aren't the way that you are talking and ignoring the wing completely is BS because 9w8s are totally different because of that 8 wing.

How amusing.
I don't think you find it amusing at all. You're clearly offended big time.

You have literally come into the 9 forum and told not one, but two 9s, that we're wrong based on your antidote evidence of observing the behaviour of one friend you consider a 9. I have to presume you're intentionally trolling cause the failure to distinguish behaviour of an individual with the core motivations of the type is plain stupid.

TLDR: You're wrong. Ba-bye.
Lol one thing is for sure, I don't doubt your 8 wing now.

I'm not making assumptions on an entire type because of my friend. 9w8s aren't even described as turning away from conflict.
 

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I'm describing what the experts say about 9w8s.
Nice argument from authority. Fine, you've read a bunch of stuff, so what, so have I, so have a lot of people in this forum. You do not come with a demonstration of understanding so suggesting you get it because you've read stuff is meaningless, either give sources that can be critiqued or call it your own view and give reasons.

They aren't the way that your talking about
You are wrong, and you've assigned opinions to me which are incorrect showing you haven't comprehended what I've said. I.e. I've never claimed a 9 will always avoid an argument. In fact, I said this about myself;

Sonny said:
I'm argumentative in a way some can find contrary and there are a lot of non-9s in my life who are less inclined to debate issues than I...
Here's the thing, as a type 9 I generally avoid absolutes, there's always room for doubt and someone else's pov, so when I, as a 9, tell you you're wrong it's with conviction that you're missing something important. One reason 9s tend to avoid arguments, we tend not to push something if we're not sure, especially if the other person seems certain or is likely to result in disharmony.

and ignoring the wing completely is BS
Nope. When it comes to core motivations there isn't one standard for a w1 and a different one for a w8, the outward behaviour and relationship with anger can different but the core motivations remain constant.

because 9w8s are totally different because of that 8 wing.
Nope. Type 9 is type 9, wings are supplementary.

Saying they're totally different is hyperbole. There are plenty of things about 9w1s that I do not relate to, those things however, are not the core motivations and fears which is what I've been talking about.

I don't think you find it amusing at all. You're clearly offended big time.
Nope, amusing is the right word.

Here's another type 9 tip for you; If a 9 is offended chances are high they'll withdraw, not engage. It's yet one more way of how we can avoid arguments.

Projecting emotions onto people on a forum will set you up for constant fail.

I'm not making assumptions on an entire type because of my friend. 9w8s aren't even described as turning away from conflict.
Then I'm gravely concerned about the quality of your sources.

Amateur online write ups can make a point of distinguishing the types by wings, pro tip: You will not gain deep insight from them.

Meanwhile most Enneagram authors spend the bulk of their time writing about the core first, some don't distinguish wings and those that do don't have disclaimers attached that say a w1 motivations are "A" and a w8 motivations are "B". The core is the core, is the core.

I've never read a respected Enneagram author state that type 9w8 does not avoid conflict, and I've read a lot. The core of a 9 is conflict avoidant, this is because of our childhood connection to Holy Love. Before you make a leap; This does not mean that 9s are incapable of confronting conflict.

There are some poor online descriptions written by people who are clearly not 9 and do not understand the type that overrate the wing 8 connection to rage, the connection is real, how w1s and w8s experience anger is different, what is not accurate is the idea that we're all going to outwardly explode in a public manner or jump into any conflict that comes our way, even if it does come out, it's generally going to be the last resort. As a w8 I feel rage, frequently, I even crave it, however, I will not show it freely. As I said earlier, outside of an angsty teen, it's not going to be commonly seen, even in a w8.

I frequently liken 9w8 to the Bruce Banner/Hulk combo, only that Hulk side is not an external display, its rage that many 9s would question their right to express and easily suppress. With growth, that w8 can turn it into assertiveness.

Regardless, it would not change the core.


Don't think I understand 9s, fine. You care about 'experts';

Claudio Naranjo on E9, no wings mentioned:
"... in general, a person who is overadapted to the desires of others, overly complacent, and with scant initiative. His or her inner state resembles going around half asleep, half dead to life. This is a dispassionate, phlegmatic character, though the switching off of his or her personal desires frequently coincides with a jovial, gregarious disposition, In human relations, however, this is an overly self-sacrificing person, overly resigned, passive, conformist; generally a simple person, "without problems" - apart from his or her excessive intolerance of troubles and excessive difficulty when it comes to saying "no", which often makes these people a target for exploitation".

I personally think Naranjo oversells it, nevertheless, that was his take. The short of it is someone who gives up their own needs and goes along with other's.


A.H.Almass on E9s, no wings mentioned:
"Ennea-type Nines are described as "lazy about Essence", but its laziness is not that paying attention to Being is too much trouble. It is more a neglect of your Being because you do not believe that it is lovable. If there is anything valuable and good, it will be outside yourself, so why look inside? So, unlike the other ennea-types who may respond to their disconnection from Being with anger or sadness, Nines respond with apathy, resignation, laziness, inertia, and a sense of stuckness. Nines are not necessarily lazy people - they can be very energetic and active in the world of conventional reality - but they neglect what is essential: Being. ... because you believe that you are an inferior soul, your inferiority is all you can hope to find when you seek the truth, so why bother?"

This "why bother?" is part of all 9s. It means the default 9 reaction is to walk away from most arguments without even trying. He provides an in-depth understanding of Holy Love and doesn't care about wings when talking about it.


Sandra Maitri on E9s, no wings mentioned:
"The most uncomfortable thing to a Nine is conflict, and so they avoid it at all costs... Upsetting the prevailing flow of things, or lack thereof, might be uncomfortable, and so it is decisively shunned. Rather than clash with others, they appease and placate. They have difficulty confronting others, especially about being overlooked, unconsidered, not listened to, and so on, and will often talk themselves out of their ruffled feelings or simply distract themselves from feeling hurt rather than risking locking horns with another by bringing up a difficulty."

"Nines are said to have the most objective perception of all the types, being able to set aside any personal bias and see what is going on around them clearly. This is another dubious blessing, since it is based on self-forgetting. What is difficult for them is knowing where they stand and what they feel, since their tendency is to be outwardly rather than inwardly attuned. Keeping their perceptions - especially critical ones of others - somewhat vague and fuzzy ensures that they will not be hurtful towards others, as they assume being sharp and clear would be. Even if they are in touch with what they think and feel, they rarely put their thoughts and feelings forward because of the risk of challenge. Psychodynamically this avoidance of conflict may have its roots in not wanting to upset or stand up to an inattentive parent for fear of losing what little love and attention they seem to be receiving."

If you're interested, Maitri gives an easier to grasp overview of Almass' concept of Holy Love. If you don't get Holy Love, you won't get the core motivators of type 9, wing has no impact on this concept.


Helen Palmer on E9s, no wings mentioned:
"Nines are the children who felt overlooked when they were young. They remember that their point of view was seldom heard and that other people’s needs were more important than their own. Eventually Nines fell asleep, in the sense that their attention turned from real wishes and they became preoccupied with small comforts and substitutes for love. Realising that their own priorities were likely to be discounted, they leaned to numb themselves, to divert their energy from priorities, and to forget themselves."

"The thread of connection between the Nine child and others depended on keeping the peace, on being able to sense out others’ wishes and to go along with them. A Mediator’s apparent agreeability, however, should not be mistake for real commitment. Nines can go along with a situation for a long time while still trying to decide. It is so easy for them to identify with another person’s point of view that they can see the rightness on all sides of a question. Why take a position, when every side has merit? Why have a personal priority, when it’s so easy to feel the rightness of all parties concerned? Nines say that it is far easier to know the inner condition of others than it is to find a viewpoint of their own."


So at the core you have Holy Love, in order to feel lovable the 9 child gave up having needs. When one's own needs are dismissed, other people's needs seem more urgent, more important, to keep the connection to feeling lovable, why not just allow their needs to trump? It also means we may not know what our stance is, how can we disagree if we're not sure of our opinion? And because we doing this to maintain that connection, we're hyper vigilant to reading the environment and knowing other people's needs, which gives us easy insight into understanding where they're coming from, most disagreements come from not getting the other person's pov, for survival we are automatically tuned into it, it's how we bridge gaps and mediate. All these things lead to avoiding conflict and maintaining harmony.

The problem with this is dismissing our own needs leads to anger over feeling ignored/dismissed/unimportant (for a w1, critical, for a w8, rage), however as we want to keep a connection with others we numb that anger. I've never met a 9 who did not at one stage claim "I don't experience anger, I'm just not an angry person", well, we are. But as we're dismissing our own needs and trying to ignore feeling unlovable, that anger is over being dismissed is connected to things that hurt. So we question our right to it and push it down more even to the point of denying it exists. We tell ourselves "I didn't actually care anyway".

Naturally, this is not a healthy cycle, with growth any 9 can change it, but the connection to Holy Love will remain the core.


Lol one thing is for sure, I don't doubt your 8 wing now.
Thanks for your unsolicited opinion. I've probably been studying this longer than you've been alive and yet somehow your acceptance means more to me than anything, only now can I feel complete.


As you are new to the forum; don't get in the habit of telling forum members what you believe their type is without solicitation, it's frowned upon - on this point, I'm not actually being a smartass, take it on board or ignore it, your choice, this is just a heads up.

PC Rules said:
Do not harass or bully other members, which includes the following:
- "type-bullying," which we define as the persistent and unsolicited public questioning of another member's type when they have not expressed such an interest.
 

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You literally make little sense...? I give you an example of a 9w8 not being a doormat and you say that's crap and I tell that even in theory, they aren't doormats and you still say it's crap. I'm starting to think you're just subjective. If you were just explaining what she meant then say so cause i'm not a mind-reader. @Sonny

Then I'm gravely concerned about the quality of your sources.

Amateur online write ups can make a point of distinguishing the types by wings, pro tip: You will not gain deep insight from them.
The Wisdom of Enneagram book by Russ Hudson and Don Riso which has been referred to as the bible of Enneagram. How's that for respectable?

Projecting emotions onto people on a forum will set you up for constant fail.
I'm not projecting anything. Your responses are touchy af.

Nope. Type 9 is type 9, wings are supplementary.

Saying they're totally different is hyperbole. .
Yet so many 9w8s mistype as other types cause they don't relate with the core 9 total passive doormat stuff? How can you say that as a 9w8 with a STRONG 8 wing.

As you are new to the forum; don't get in the habit of telling forum members what you believe their type is without solicitation, it's frowned upon - on this point, I'm not actually being a smartass, take it on board or ignore it, your choice, this is just a heads up.
I figured it wasn't that serious since you identified as unknown.
 

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You literally make little sense...? I give you an example of a 9w8 not being a doormat and you say that's crap and I tell that even in theory, they aren't doormats and you still say it's crap. If you were just explaining what she meant then say so cause i'm not a mind-reader. @Sonny
From my perspective you keep assigning black and white comments to me that show you're either bothered by what I've said or are not comprehending it, ie;

So you're basically implying that a 9w8 could never feel the need to argue if they are being tested?
That came after the below;

Conflict is not the fear, separation is, as is having needs that aren't acceptable and lead to personal rejection. When a 9 can accept that disagreeing with someone isn't akin to rejection, conflict doesn't need to be a scary place. So yes, 9s can engage in conflict.
... the inclination to give up one's needs is an integral part of type 9 and an area we need to focus on for growth.
Seems to me you took my suggestion to read up on Holy Love as some kind of taunt or insult and are not actually reading what I've written.


The Wisdom of Enneagram book by Russ Hudson and Don Riso which has been referred to as the bible of Enneagram. How's that for respectable?
I very nearly added something about them. Here's something from another thread on the matter:

I most commonly refer to Almaas, Maitri and Palmer, in that order.

Facets of Unity by Almaas covers the holy ideas which I believe gives the best glimpse of someone's core motivations.

Maitri brings some other authors into her works like Ichazo and Naranjo, as much as I dislike spirituality, I like how she ties together different elements. There's a whimsical element to her writing style which can be polarising, personally, I like it.

Palmer is straight forward, a reference book. She's easy to read yet still get's below the surface imo. As a 6 I believe she covers off the 369 types best.


Riso & Hudson appear especially popular with E5s, I believe Hudson is a 5 so that could be why, as an E9 I find their understanding of my type misses the mark, it doesn't get past the surface in a way that shows genuine understanding despite how much research they've done.
I'm not trying to sound like an ass when I say this; I suggest you read more widely. Just as I wasn't being a smart ass when I suggested you read up on Holy Love.

Each author views things through the perspective of their own type, the more one is connected to a type the better their innate understanding will be, limiting what you read to one or two writers will not give you depth of understanding across the types.


Yet so many 9w8s mistype as other types cause they don't relate with the core 9 total passive doormat stuff? How can you say that as a 9w8 with a STRONG 8 wing.
Passive doormat =/= avoiding conflict.

Until this point you have not mentioned "passive" or "doormat" once, you initially questioned the term compliance indicating you either A. didn't understand Psyche and needed clarification or B. suggested Psyche had no idea what she was talking about. You then started claiming that wing is all important and that 9w8s are not described as turning away from conflict. You have no response to the quoted authors addressing the wing matter being secondary to the core of conflict-avoidance, instead we're now apparently talking about a stereotype of 9s being passive doormats. Your argument is slipping.

Re "Passive Doormats": One of the reasons I don't refer to Naranjo as much as other writers is because he paints an image of passiveness too hard and I don't agree with that, other authors do not, this is because it's the motivation not the behaviour that matters. Naranjo focuses on the somewhat 'diagnosable' negatives of the types, outside of that, it's a stereotype, not a supportable position.

And the reason so many 9s mistype are because they don't see themselves clearly enough, again, this is because they're pushing their own needs to the side and paying no attention to what they've numbed.


I'm starting to think you're just subjective.
And yet I've just supplied a bunch of enneagram authors words so that you didn't need to take my view on the matter.
 

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Seems to me you took my suggestion to read up on Holy Love as some kind of taunt or insult and are not actually reading what I've written.

I'm not trying to sound like an ass when I say this; I suggest you read more widely. Just as I wasn't being a smart ass when I suggested you read up on Holy Love.
I already have read about it and I already said I did. I know everything about enneagram.

You have no response to the quoted authors addressing the wing matter being secondary to the core of conflict-avoidance
I'm not going quote from a book which has pages on a certain type. It's not like i'm finding the stuff online like you seem to be.

instead we're now apparently talking about a stereotype of 9s being passive doormats. Your argument is slipping.
Where isn't this a stereotype?
 

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I already have read about it and I already said I did. I know everything about enneagram.

I'm not going quote from a book which has pages on a certain type. It's not like i'm finding the stuff online like you seem to be.
:laughing:

Kay, so you are trolling. Be-gone.
 
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