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Do you ever find yourselves (conscious or unconsciously) "editing" or adapting your image/beliefs/opinions based on how you think another person would agree or disagree?
If so, does this happen more around certain people rather than others? What kinds of people?
What do you think the driving force behind this is?
 
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As with most things 9, it's to avoid conflict. I don't edit my beliefs but I am careful about sharing opinions most of the time.
I take that a step further and don't even have opinions to begin with :tongue:

#bettershutupwhenyoudontknowshit
 

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9 in my tritype.

I tend to adapt to people often. Especially in real life. Though, not necessarily changing my opinions but changing how I word them to suit the environment.

An example.

Playful way of saying things : *joke* *joke* /opinion/ High five! (Lighthearted tone)
Formal way of saying things : /opinion/ (Serious tone. Deeper voice. Precise way of wording things.)
Gentle way of saying things : Oh, I agree with you on this and you were great on this but I should say /opinion/ (Warm voice)
Blunt way of saying things : This was horrible. That was bullshit. But damn, I gotta had /opinion/. Holy crap, wow. Amazing that they/Opinion/

Haha. The more intimidating they are and more aggressive they are, the more I'm going to adapt. And when I say adapt, probably absolute silence. The more easygoing people, I'm more open with.

Intimidating person : (quiet voice) Okay, can I suggest this? Haha. /Gets glare/ Hahhahahaha. Never mind.
Easygoing person : *opinion rambling*
 
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I don't think I truly edit my beliefs around other people, but I do hide/censor myself. So I guess the answer is more "yes" than "no". I may also just flat-out forget what I personally think (if anything) when I'm talking to other people. I think I kind of become a deer in the headlights, at times. I'm just deathly afraid of people getting angry (and then hating me), or knowing about my bad side. I kinda feel like I'm morally impure/tainted/diseased on some deep, possibly fundamental level, and it's like I'm constantly trying to hide it from others while hating myself as penance for being so dishonest. :ball:

(I guess that's why I kind of relate to the Jekyll/Hyde archetype. Though my "Mr. Hyde" isn't dangerous or anything, just a spiteful, cold-hearted asshole. Alternatively, a vampire who sees themselves as "damned" but still tries to act all aristocratic and romantic to make light of the whole "unholy creature of the night" thing, lol. Do I have issues? Er, yeah, probably...)
 

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I echo what many people in this thread have already said. For me though, I'll lie on a whim in order to keep a conversation in the conflict-free zone. So while I don't believe something myself, I'll make it seem as though I do. If I don't do that, I give a lot of middle-of-the-road answers and non-answers in order to keep the peace. Writing this makes me realize that I'd be a pretty skilled politician lol

I do this a lot when politics are the topic of discussion, specifically.
 

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I believe your questions should be answered in reverse order. If you understand Holy Love, then you will be able to understand many core behavioural aspects of 9s.

What do you think the driving force behind this is?
Part of what is often seen as 9s self-editing or being highly malleable around other people is the 9s focus on seeing things through another's perspective.

Holy Love is the view that everything is inherently and intrinsically lovable, the message 9s received as children was that they were not inherently lovable, despite seeing it in their surrounds. The logical jump from that view is that being lovable is not something within the 9, so it must come from somewhere else. As children, 9s commonly report feeling unheard and their environment/circumstances taught them the easiest way to be acceptable and therefore be lovable was to go along with others, to make no hard demands, to simply be accommodating and let other's decide.

Disagreement or conflict are not issues per say, however, they lead to separation, and separation threatens to affirm the message that they are not lovable, so as a way to keep connections they mediate conflict.

A 9s effortless attention is therefore directed towards understanding other's perspectives, what they think, feel and want. Because of the focus, there's an ability to read the environment, to know when things are tense or if there is a potential problem that will lead to conflict and disconnection. They are quick to bridge gaps and get people on side. The focus on other people's perceptions is at the forefront, this leaves less space for their own thoughts, feelings and wants when around others.

The 9s coping strategy is literally unconscious accommodation to others while giving up their own needs, and as this is learnt as children it's an increadibly difficult habit to change.

This is why 9s frequently find it easier to articulate what, and why, someone else holds a specific view, then to state their own firm stance.

As 9s show understanding it's easy to appear agreeable. It's important to understand however that a 9 who shows understanding is not actually agreeing.

Having a conversation with a 9 who hasn't made up his mind on a specific topic is going to be different from one where he has.


Do you ever find yourselves (conscious or unconsciously) "editing" or adapting your image/beliefs/opinions based on how you think another person would agree or disagree?
If so, does this happen more around certain people rather than others? What kinds of people?
So the short answer to this is yes, 9s adapt. However, it is frequently unconscious and even self-aware 9s will find it hard to stop viewing things from other people's perspectives and taking that view into consideration before acting/speaking.

There are two core things that would positively impact a 9 holding their own views or needs in the forefront besides self awareness and a focus on growth;
1. For the people around them to show that they are accepted regardless of their views, to be non-judgemental/non-reactive
2. To engage in topics that the 9 has strong views on.
 
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I used to have (strong) opinions when I was younger. Then I began realising just how immensely ignorant I am of so infinitely many things. These days almost any topic will present itself to me with such a cosmically complex arrangement of angles and potential pitfalls that I almost always feel like I'd need to spend years studying the issue before I can form an opinion. It's baffling how people just grab one angle and stick with it. Whether it's politics or poetry or diet or someone I've just met, the only obvious thing to me is that I know next to nothing about it or them. Even when I suspect that I know more than most, it's still infinitesimal.

Sam Harris said in one his debates that at any gathering of scientists, you're painfully aware of how limited your knowledge is and that at any given moment, you are likely surrounded by a large number of people who know infinitely more on any given topic, save perhaps one - your own field, where you could be a specialist on one tiny little issue. In terms of everything else, any knowledge you may have is dwarfed not only by your immense ignorance, but by the relatively lesser ignorance of specialists in those fields.

On a more mundane level, look at anyone - a random stranger on the street, your co-worker, your brother, even your SO - and you will at any given moment be ignorant of infinitely more about them than you are aware of. They will have pains, desires, thoughts, subconscious processes you are utterly oblivious to, and the only thing you can be certain of is that if that was you, having their genes, having gone through everything they've been through, you would be doing exactly what they are doing.

It's slightly easier in fields I am well-versed in, relative to others, but those are generally neutral and rarely engender any strong opinions anyway.
 

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[...]
On a more mundane level, look at anyone - a random stranger on the street, your co-worker, your brother, even your SO - and you will at any given moment be ignorant of infinitely more about them than you are aware of. They will have pains, desires, thoughts, subconscious processes you are utterly oblivious to, and the only thing you can be certain of is that if that was you, having their genes, having gone through everything they've been through, you would be doing exactly what they are doing.
[...]
This is basically how I think, too. I can see how my attempts to understand everyone's viewpoint makes things difficult for me, but at the same time, anything else feels like arrogance or ignorance, and just doesn't make much sense to me. Strange as it may seem, disregarding the viewpoint of another person feels like hypocrisy, too, because I don't have a reason to think that I'd be any different in their shoes. But, if I'm angry, I will pretty much stop caring about the viewpoint that angered me...and feel guilty anyway because I can probably see good reasons for them to think the way they do, and I question if I have any right to place my views above theirs, especially if they are trying to do good (regardless of how arrogant I personally think they are).
 

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Do you ever find yourselves (conscious or unconsciously) "editing" or adapting your image/beliefs/opinions based on how you think another person would agree or disagree?
Image, yes. Generally I feel timid around people, especially in a setting that feels professional or something...I appear meek, my voice is inaudible, that sort of thing. Whereas in a more relaxed setting where I can just have some fun I have a ribald sense of humor, I laugh a lot, I'll be more open about my concerns, that sort of thing. Opinions and beliefs, though, no. I'm not very malleable in that way, partly because I get strong gut feelings about things; it's just my image that changes.

If so, does this happen more around certain people rather than others? What kinds of people?
Yeah...men. I am terrified of men. More professional settings where I feel pressure to appear prestigious or intelligent or to move up a ladder somehow. People I am worried I may have disappointed or will disappoint for whatever reason, most often my tendency to isolate...

What do you think the driving force behind this is?
Probably goes back to my childhood. My sister and I have some pretty similar habits that present themselves in different ways, namely the pressure to appear good and kind with a tendency to isolate from situations in which this image is threatened. She's more compliant, though, and I am more withdrawn, two pretty different defense mechanisms... She's core 6 and I'm core 9 so... Our parents were pretty...closed off, didn't like anyone getting too close. They needed people around them to be very, very pleasant, because they were both adult children of addicts and well aware of how dangerous people can be. I think I am probably afraid of men because a) my mom was the more withdrawn of the two and my dad would take over when my mom needed to get away from a baby (he told me I would literally not stop crying until she got back and held me) and b) one time I wouldn't stop crying and my dad got a bit...physical with me, to get me to stop (nothing abusive, just...restrictive) because he was afraid I would wake up my younger sister from her nap. I'm just very, very aware that men have more power than I do, and that there are women who will be prioritized over me. I have a good relationship with him, he is a good person, but at a deep primitive level it is also a strained relationship. I'm trying to work on it, though.

I think I probably feel more pressure in a more...professional? environment because I grew up in borderline poverty and my parents struggled with money a lot, and I am terrified I will never have enough money and I won't be able to support my family if they get sick, that kind of thing. I can barely support myself, even psychologically so...that terrifies me. I also just feel a hell of a lot of guilt that I want to alleviate by feeling capable and intelligent, which I generally do not feel.
 

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Just like the others I'd say that I don't speak out loud my opinions all the time but maybe unlike 9w1 , I'm extremely opinionated and I'm not easily influenced (I'm stubborn). Also as istp I really like to listen to ppl reasons, but if they cant provide something useful or factual logic prove, its really unlikely to agree with them. Confrontations, negativity and arguements are really draining for me, so if I know beforehand that someone is going to make a fuss or really dont care for honesty, facts or is not really interested in knowing my opinion, I've no good reason to say a word. Usually I stay quiet until someone is being really pushy and I get annoyed...at this point I'll express my opinion on a rude way.

I'd say however, that Im not scared of not being loved if I speak up my mind (idk but I'd say its more w1), but I freaking hate being annoyed, provoked or arguing, so I prefer harmony and stay in peace if war is not necessary ( and most of the times its not!). I never experienced love as conditioned when kid tbh, so I differ in that this was an experience of all 9s, and that its the motivation for not vocalizing their opinions. I experienced a chaotic enviroment and aggression (not from my parents really), so I never felt that I wasnt inherent lovable, but obviously I was ignored at some point because they have their own problems... however, they ignoring me wasnt related to their love for me and I didnt perceived it that way...actually It was the opposite! the most important thing that I've learned from my parents is that being loved not depends on what you do or who you are(in society), but who you are for them (relational) ... and its has nothing to do with being inherently good or agreeing with them or having unique qualities or achievements...the feeling of being unworthy its 2,3 and 4 on different levels each one, so they have the perception of "conditional" love, not 9. We have fear of loss (physical) and separation (physichal, emotional), the main motive of 9s being agreeable is comfort (sloth) and being the top of the enneagram we have some of other types qualities according e.institute, thats why there are also a sort of natural agreeableness however.

I do strongly believe that everybody is inherently lovable and that love not depends on the person who is loved but the person who is loving. So its quite shocking to see that 9s agree (not really since w1 sometimes tend to agree with almost everything XD) with that description of not being inherently lovable. I really thought that the issues about "acceptance" or having to gain love were merely of heart types...

Also its quite interesting that I'm the one who is influencing others (even when I don't want to) when I decide to speak up, but at the same time they withdraw from me when I express my thoughts, Idk exactly why, maybe w8…so yeah, most of the time I've to "decide" if its valuable to express my opinion or if its better just dont say anything. Keep quiet is easier and comes out naturally, however :laughing:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
@Sonny Darn, thank you for taking the time to explain that, it really helped me understand the underlying motivation! When I was writing the thread I was thinking in particular about a 9 I met who began chattering about his views on religion, science and social issues and I couldn't tell whether he was nervous that he would be judged by the people listening to him or if he was genuinely passionate about the subject.
@Marv So what I'm understanding from your post is that 9s experience a sort of heightened awareness of their insignificance in the larger scale of things (whether it be their perspective, knowledge or impact on their environment). Is there some truth to this?
 
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@Marv So what I'm understanding from your post is that 9s experience a sort of heightened awareness of their insignificance in the larger scale of things (whether it be their perspective, knowledge or impact on their environment). Is there some truth to this?
Not just my own insignificance. The intrinsic interconnectedness of everything. In default mode, most things present themselves to me from a "cosmic" perspective. Not from "behind my eyes". It's a mental out-of-body experience, if you will. When a co-worker insults another co-worker, I don't see a dickhead being a dickhead. I see a decades-long cascade of falling dominoes, right from the moment the co-worker was conceived, through whatever he was subjected to during gestation to birth, childhood and beyond. And, of course, the millions of years of evolution that produced the human brain itself.

The falling dominoes analogy applies to everything. The universe itself, as far as we can tell, is just one giant chain of dominoes which have been falling for 13+ billion years. Human behaviour, at least in the big picture, is so deterministic that Google et al make billions off of our predictability - which itself is tremendously predictable.

That's the default mode. I see the dominoes. I understand that A led to B led to C and so on, until we get X. It's very hard to blame anything or anyone when you see that chain, or such is my subjective experience of reality.

As an SP-first, I tend to deal with the impossible-to-avoid infinite compassion this gives rise to by limiting my interactions with people. It's simply too exhausting, so I mostly keep to myself. If I get really badly cornered by someone aggressive, I'll make a quick stab and run for it.

Thich Nhat Hanh embodies to me this innate 9w1 understanding and compassion in a very healthy way - using it to spread peace.
 
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As for @Sonny's as usual brilliant post re. how 9s come to be 9s, this is my backstory as I understand it today.

My mum is a 9w1. Quite possibly an INFJ, too. She's famously quiet and nice so no one knows much about what goes on inside her, including herself. AFAIK no one has ever seen her lose her temper - and she raised 9 kids while working as a teacher. My dad, probably an ESTJ (possibly ENTJ) with empathy issues, spent most of my childhood working, which we all are grateful for. No one liked having him around much. I don't remember him much from when I was a kid, but some years ago I was in a very difficult situation, asked for very minor assistance which wouldn't have cost him anything and he blankly refused. I haven't spoken to him since. My older brothers tell me he used to beat them, but not me - because I always behaved myself and played nice, "flew under his radar". The angrier part of me hopes he will die soon, and definitely before my mum so I won't have to stand by his side while we bury her. I may not attend if that happens. It needs to be the other way around, and probably will. Lots of centenarians in her family. Calm temperaments.

It seems I decided very early on that playing nice was the way to go. My mum has said that I had a lot of ear infections as a baby, but I was still the only one out of 9 kids to let her sleep and not wake her up throughout the night. My second oldest brother told me that my oldest brother used to beat him when angry, and he tried beating me in return - but it didn't work, because I didn't retaliate and kept playing nice, and maybe something else. Something about ... it just feeling wrong to hurt me. I don't remember him beating me at all, except one attempt when we played chess for the first time and I had the upper hand. (I haven't played chess since.)

Something about that dynamic along with however my brain was wired when I entered this world made me decide that playing down my own needs and treating everyone nicely and assuming best intentions was the way to go. For some reason, most of my 8 siblings decided something else was called for. None of us are very brash or aggressive, although that's part of your overall Nordic "be nice, don't stand out" culture. But I'm not sure any of my siblings employ the 9w1 strategies I use - my older brothers definitely don't. I don't know my younger siblings particularly well. I don't stay in touch with any of them much, I've been travelling the world since I was 18.
 
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It's really funny reading the posts in this thread, they're all spot on. I only recently became aware that I do this, and I was annoyed with this habit because I felt that what it said about me was a negative thing: that I just say whatever people want to hear, taler folk efter munden (a negative Danish idiom, "speaking people after the mouth"). So I thought that I would change this habit, but before I knew it, I was agreeing with my co-worker about the inappropriateness of bathing topless in public places. Even though I disagree.

Thank you for this thread, it's at least helped me to see that sort of behavior in a different light.
 

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9 in my tritype.

I tend to adapt to people often. Especially in real life. Though, not necessarily changing my opinions but changing how I word them to suit the environment.

An example.

Playful way of saying things : *joke* *joke* /opinion/ High five! (Lighthearted tone)
Formal way of saying things : /opinion/ (Serious tone. Deeper voice. Precise way of wording things.)
Gentle way of saying things : Oh, I agree with you on this and you were great on this but I should say /opinion/ (Warm voice)
Blunt way of saying things : This was horrible. That was bullshit. But damn, I gotta had /opinion/. Holy crap, wow. Amazing that they/Opinion/

Haha. The more intimidating they are and more aggressive they are, the more I'm going to adapt. And when I say adapt, probably absolute silence. The more easygoing people, I'm more open with.

Intimidating person : (quiet voice) Okay, can I suggest this? Haha. /Gets glare/ Hahhahahaha. Never mind.
Easygoing person : *opinion rambling*
Very, very interesting!

I echo what many people in this thread have already said. For me though, I'll lie on a whim in order to keep a conversation in the conflict-free zone. So while I don't believe something myself, I'll make it seem as though I do. If I don't do that, I give a lot of middle-of-the-road answers and non-answers in order to keep the peace. Writing this makes me realize that I'd be a pretty skilled politician lol

I do this a lot when politics are the topic of discussion, specifically.
Again, interesting!

Let me explain what I do. I also, adapt like the both of you. It's funny, my old boss was able to strike at this habit of mine much earlier than I could arrive to find my own type and realize why I do it. Anyway, he has called me a chameleon. That is exactly what I am, and more, of course. I like people liking me, therefore I'll say anything to let them feel comfortable with me. For the first example, which is more minor, I do adapt my tone to the person who I am conversing with. Why have I done that? I saw it somewhere as a tip. "Hey people will like you more if you repeat things in their own tone." Therefore, I started doing just that! I don't want to seem too eager or feminine with someone who is writing in a serious tone. I have done that before, and it doesn't feel good. It is also a subtle form of manipulation, and I like it.

Now, on lieing. I also do this. When a person is telling me their side, I say things without giving too much about what I truly feel of the situation. I know that these two people are just dumb for fighting, and that I can't really do much besides that. It is out of my control, so I try to help them simply understand each other. (Sometimes it's not them both being dumb, it's one person having a legitimate concern, which I agree with, but at the same time, don't truly care about) I just say things as 'yes I agree with you, those things should not be done' even though I might truly not care.

Now, I even do the same with my mother. My mother seems to have some problems with my sister moving out with her boyfriend. My mother is a strict Catholic, who supports marriage. I truly do not care. Yet she asks me things like "something something she shouldn't have done that, you agree right?" I say yeah. Yet truly, I know that my sister left due to how my mother is, who never truly listens and is too harsh. She repeats the same thing over and over again. There was always arguments. It's pretty negative when it comes to my mother. I know my sister moved out to be free of the 'gender role'. Yet I don't say that she left due to her, at least when I'm of a clear and calm mind. Sometimes I let it go that she left when my mother constantly berates me until this very day. When I get angry, things slip. My mother gets me angry. Only she can. (Or my sister) Either way, I try to keep it to myself. I take no sides. I do not want to hurt my sister more, nor do I want more harm to come to my mother emotionally, even though she's on the wrong. Yet some things my sister has done seems insensitive. (Like saying the people living around us are trash, etc) I can't think of the other things, I could be wrong.

Now, sometimes when a person of faith asks me if I'm a person of faith, I say yes, I am. I'm not that good of a lyer, but I say that. Then I simply frame myself as a believer and talk about Jesus and 'must never disrespect our parents' when truly, I care not for such a thing, when my own parent treats me like rubble. I didn't intend to get personal here, yet it just slipped. Wow.

Yet, I have not even explained why my old boss called me a chameleon!!! He was asking me about my interests, and about how I shared them with people. He is a sociopath, so he does not care about sharing or not sharing, he simply just does it. Not myself. I do care what others think, in society. Yet, I shun them in a way. Really, I know that my interests are probably not interesting to others (earlier on), so I would not really talk about them. Especially around women my age and culture. I'd rather not just go on about videogames and manga. I would just lie and point towards mainstream points of interest, yet I had little. I don't care for sports. Yet I have reached towards activities that can make me seem socially acceptable, and there are some I do like. Therefore, I was adapting to the rest of society, so that people can accept me. I felt insecure about my own interests, as I was raised on those alone. I'm only now beginning to discover myself.

Of course, I'm not at a point where I need to hide my interests, but there are times I may. Yet I try to find connections that I can truly be myself, and not be the chameleon I can be.

Now, on people saying that this all may be a negative aspect. I don't think of it as negative, I think of it as positive and smart. If it helps people like me, that is a positive win for me. I don't feel bad for it. It is manipulative, yes. Yet, I don't feel there is anyway to abuse it and use it for evil. It helps me avoid possible conflicts or a loss of friends, or ridicule, or humiliation. Especially if I feel no need to worry about the long run of the lies since I won't feel the need to be genuine with them, as they are only there in the present and won't be there in my future. I will only speak of my true self to those I intend to be close to me, and of course, my fellow 9's who have interesting perspectives to share. I don't care about sharing this. I may have exposed myself, but I always go on and say that I'm a chameleon online. Yet not to this extent. I didn't think of all this until now.
 

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I have a pretty adverse reaction to "editing" my beliefs. To me, that seems disingenuous and typically not something I appreciate in other people let alone in myself. I'm definitely cautious to share my beliefs though, but that is getting better as I age.
 

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Yes, as a 9 I tend to adapt my beliefs to the one's that people around me have.

It's something that I do unconsciously but it's a thing I particularly don't like about myself.

I would like to come across with a straight opinion, though it's really hard for me to disagree with people when I see the world through their eyes.
 
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