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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A weak J corresponds to intuitive subtype of INFJ - basically a more introverted INFJ that is using a lot of Ni-Ti
A strong J corresponds to ethical subtype of INFJ - a more extraverted INFJ that is using a lot of Fe-Se.
It was so good to read this. Thanks, vel. :proud:

If INFJs are indeed 1% of the population, then I wonder how many of that 1% are like me. I completley understand the way that the "intuitive subtype" thinks. In fact, I was at one time trying to be that way, but I never felt right about it. My life is guided by a code of ethics that I cannot violate without feeling like a bad person. For better or worse, "good" and "bad" are very black and white in my mind. I understand moral relativism and moral nihilism, and I mostly regard them as cop-outs. I would rather someone flat-out disagree with me than to say that there is no absolute truth, which is of course an absolute statement. :wink:

Even though I am an introvert, I seem to have an odd preference for extroversion. Fe is more important than Ni to me. I have the ability to be "deep", but my relationships with other people take more of a priority than that. As I've said before, I like to think of Ni as more of a "writing tool". I don't want to think of it as being a "big part" of who I am as a person.

I am comfortable using Fe, and I will use Se even though I like Fe more. If I use Se, I prefer to be doing something else in addition to that. I cannot, for example, drive my car without listening to the radio or interacting with a passenger. It's just too boring. If I have to mow the lawn, I will use Ni and think about something else while I'm doing it. So yeah, I'm in some ways always on "autopilot" in Se-mode. I guess that's ok. I have a GPS to tell me where to drive to, and I still do a fine job on the lawn.

I do not have a "shell" when I interact with other people. Ni can disappear, and I will save it for when I'm by myself. I am open and honest with people about everything. I mainly use Fe and act silly most of the time. I do not need intellectually stimulating conversations all the time. I am a movie buff, and I own just as many action movies and comedies as I do "art films".

So, I know many of you INFJs feel like weirdos, but how weird of a weirdo am I? :tongue:
 

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I'm not that into Socionics, but I skimmed this description from INFj subtypes - the16types.info Socionics Forums

INFj: Fi/Ne

Psychologist- Ethical subtype (Fi), Producing subtype.

The Psychologist is polite, tactful and restrained. It usually keeps it's distance from others and may come off as strict or cold. This impression is soon scattered when sincere sympathy is released through personal contact. It is usually serious, calm and benevolent. It is very penetrating yet reserved. Even though it is alert, it rarely smiles. It rarely shares its observations and is very tactful when dealing with other people. It jokes because it fears to say too much. It usually departs silently from the disputes without resorting to diplomacy. It is orderly in its principles and does not transfer injustice and violence.

The Psychologist is very patient and industrious. It knows how to create comfort in living spaces rather well. It is commonly skilled at hand crafts. It is good at accounting for materials.

The Psychologist is modest with it's elegant tastes in clothing. It's motions are smooth yet hindered. It's gait is slightly rapid and forward. It may sit squarely without any expressive body language.

Teacher- Intuitive subtype (Ne), Creative subtype.

The Teacher is not very expressive but may express sympathy with warm benevolence. Sometimes it loves to joke yet it tries not to tell people unpleasant things even though it may express a disagreement even if it will regret it later. It is serious and conscientious. It loves being useful when in the company of other people. Sometimes it can be unsure and very sensitive but it attempts to hide this.

The Teacher has great descriptive thinking and creative abilities. It knows how to interpret different symbols, dreams, mystical meanings quite well. For it's closest companions, it loves to advise and be creative.

The Teacher appears modest and blends in very well. It dresses in a classic, conservative style. Expressiveness and mimicry is very rarely expressed. It's speech can be somewhat emotional by using an educational tone. It's gait is a little clumsy and it may waddle somewhat.
...and from that I would say I am squarely in the Ethical subtype. I haven't checked to make sure that I am really INFj in Socionics, so take it with a grain of salt.

Though from your thoughts post, and I am well aware that there are a lot of things you have not mentioned, I was thinking: "Are you sure you're not an ENFJ?" What's your take on that?
 
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Penchant - In socionics, the J/P switches so INFJ is actually an INFp in socionics. It is less confusing to refer to the socionics types using the three letter code - for MBTI INFJ (Ni-Fe) that would be socionics IEI (Intuitive Ethical Introvert) description posted by GreenCoyote a while back - http://personalitycafe.com/infj-articles/31207-iei-socionics-description-ni-fe.html).

I am an extraverted INFJ but don't relate to either the intuitive or ethical subtype. In socionics I am an IEE (Intuitive Ethical Extravert). That makes me a weirder INFJ than you, Dave, because IEE maps onto MBTI ENFP!

I have 2 questions for you Dave:

1. Like Penchant alluded to above. Are you definitely sure you are not an ENFJ, who due to problematic circumstances has been introverting his whole life up until recently and has only just "found himself"?

2. Are you enneagram type 2? Because that would explain a lot in terms of how different your base motivations are to a lot of people on this forum.

I would also like to say that in real life I show much more of my Fe than online. I especially used it a lot in my younger years and I suppose got a bit torched by it. Well, not exactly torched, just - I tried to save a lot of people from themselves and wasn't very successful in the end so it was a bit disillusioning, so eventually I became more introverted and selfish, more of a Ni-Ti user in private, which shapes how I decide to act in the outside world. But once I'm out there using my Fe, I am usually on just as much as a mission as you are, I just try to do it "behind the scenes" style, rather than "in your face" style. I prefer to pull strings and let people go through the actions themselves, if you catch my drift, rather than actually physically steering them onto a different course and hoping they'll thank me for it later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have 2 questions for you Dave:

1. Like Penchant alluded to above. Are you definitely sure you are not an ENFJ, who due to problematic circumstances has been introverting his whole life up until recently and has only just "found himself"?

2. Are you enneagram type 2? Because that would explain a lot in terms of how different your base motivations are to a lot of people on this forum.

1. That is possible, I suppose. You are right. My life has had so many terrible circumstances that it may have caused me to be more of an introvert.

2. I do not know much about the enneagrams, and I'm not in the mood to look into right now. Sorry, I may get back to this later.

Throughout my life, I have been such a strong "N" that I've felt like a stronger "I" than I was. And I have been "Se challenged" all my life.

I like being around other people though. I feel better about myself when I am not all alone too. I guess I've felt that if I cannot love or care for anyone but myself then I really don't deserve to live. Many of you think of your alone time as independence, and I've thought of it as being self-absorbed, which violates my code of ethics.
 

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i do fit the ethical subtype description you mention.

however, i think socionics is completely different than MBTI, and my mind is completely blown by it. even when i try to understand it, i don't... so take whatever i say with a grain of salt as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I have posted on the ENFJ forum.

We will get to the bottom of this. :wink:

From the ENFJ forum:

"Extraverted Feeling with Introverted Intuition Forum"

This sounds promising. I definatley feel that I am "flipped" from the way you all are.

I DO use Ni. There is no question about that, but I don't like it being the #1 function.
 

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We will get to the bottom of this. :wink:
Perhaps :laughing:

And when you do get energy/time/inclination I would highly recommend that you have a good read about the enneagram. At worst you'll think it is a load of old tosh, at best it could be a really valuable tool to help understand yourself better. Why limit yourself to one system?

I find that, for the people who identify strongly with one of the types at least, the enneagram provides a lot of useful knowledge and advice on how to evolve into the best possible incarnation of yourself that you can be - and what to watch out for if you are slipping into unhealthier levels - which ultimately is great for yourself and for everyone else in your life.
 

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OK, Dave. I know you don't have the time to research much right now but let's talk functions and see if it helps. You're quite sure where you stand on Ni and Fe, but where do you think you stand on Ti and Se? If you are INFJ then Ti is tertiary, Se is inferior, if ENFJ then Se is Tertiary and Ti is inferior.

Consider:
As a Tertiary Function, Ti leads IFJs to.... ?
...."advise others on the wisdom of their choices"(edited from Lenorep.231 on INFJs.) vis a vis Ti as a primary attribute. Also, tertiary Ti leads to an important emphasis on personal experience. Yet unlike dominant and secondary Ti, tertiary Ti can often lead sweeping generalizations induced from sparse evidence. Tertiary Ti leads can lead to a narcissistic focus on your own experience, or the experience of people who stand with you. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be naive. This kind of narrow view is often used defensively. Especially when combined with dominant Ni, tertiary Ti can be used to defend bizarre theories that are completely unfalsifiable.

As an Inferior Function, Ti typically causes EFJs to aspire to behavioural standards that aren't defined by typical social norms. EFJs with low confidence may reject or even demonize Ti, preferring to instead go along with the observable expectations that others place on them. Because it is so adverse to the standpoint of Extraverted Feeling, Ti may sometimes seem too cold or emotionally detached, and thus EFJs might avoid it out of fear of losing their sense of self in the community. EFJs who can accept an introverted stance will realize that things don't have to be determined by what can be observed, and that they don't always have to agree with others just to get along; they can introduce their own ideas, think with their own minds, and determine how the world works through their own subjective perceptions.

As a tertiary function, Se often leads ENJs to maintain a certain show of force. If reason won't persuade you to play along sensibly, maybe that rifle on my wall will. I won't say anything explicit, but you know as well as I do that we don't want to go there. The unstated threat need not be violent, of course. It might just be to fire you. There's always something in the ENJ's bargaining position held in reserve, which would really pinch if he used it, and you know at a gut level that he wouldn't hesitate to use it if you got out of line. Some ENJs depend heavily on a Douglas Macarthur-like sense of theatrics and spectacle to keep the masses bedazzled while they do what they think needs doing. Sometimes tertiary Se leads ENJs to practice a peculiar philosophy of "honesty": the sort where if you feel like punching someone in the face, you view it as "dishonest" to refrain from doing so--a philosophy of giving vent to whatever your animal nature comes up with at the moment, and having the "courage" to deal with the consequences without anticipating them. Mild forms include yelling louder than someone to win an argument, or demonstrating by your physical demeanor that you are viscerally more committed to something than an opponent. From the Se perspective, "in a conflict, the more committed party always wins." (An Ni perspective would lead you to search for a third way, one that dissolves the conflict rather than winning it.)

As an inferior function, Se often leads INJs in either (or both) of two directions: to shun everything of a bodily nature as corrupt and animal (e.g. Immanuel Kant), or to crave "letting loose" and table-dancing or delivering some serious violence. In the grip of the inferior function, they try to make others feel weak by displays of physical power (or trying to get others to compare themselves with physically powerful people), but usually end up only making themselves feel like helpless bugs. "See how POWERFUL I am? See my ANIMAL MAGNETISM?" Some get into guns or karate, taking an off-kilter delight in fantasies of getting into a confrontation with someone and surprising the hell out of them with the damage they can do (see Taxi Driver). Some idolize jazz musicians as people who are completely in touch with their animal selves, able to "let go". Some join academic cliques where the object is to make other people feel unpopular by snubbing them for not being up on the latest intellectual fashions--a sort of faux popularity contest, where the wider social standards are reversed and the most unintelligible gibberish gets the most attention. Some use esoteric jazz or modern art to make a twisted marriage of Ni and Se: "It might sound like an incoherent mish-mash of notes to you, but that only shows that you lack the finer discernment of the really cool people." A different way, perhaps the genuine reunification with the inferior function, is to find an unconditional pleasure in "the now" and a peaceful, live-and-let-live philosophy--enjoying each moment, "being present" no matter what comes.
 

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Penchant - In socionics, the J/P switches so INFJ is actually an INFp in socionics. It is less confusing to refer to the socionics types using the three letter code - for MBTI INFJ (Ni-Fe) that would be socionics IEI (Intuitive Ethical Introvert) description posted by GreenCoyote a while back - http://personalitycafe.com/infj-articles/31207-iei-socionics-description-ni-fe.html).
This is why Socion. and MBTI shouldn't be mixed. :happy:

I assumed that vel was referring to Socion. INFj since she was taking the rest of her stuff from Socionics, but that might have been wrong. I also know from previous threads where the "switch" has been discussed that there was not very much agreement on if it actually is something generally applicable or not. So, since nothing was stated, I assumed that vel was referring to INFj. If that was not the case, I am sorry for the confusion.

I'm all for the three letter code as a way to avoid people assuming that Socionics and MBTI are the same think. From what I have read about the switch on wikisocion (J/P switch - Wikisocion) I am very sceptical about applying the switch indiscriminately, so I would not translate anything automatically at all between the systems. Even thought they both build on Jung, they do not have the same definition on the cognitive functions, nor the same function order, thus my disclaimer on my personal Socionics type.
 

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Interesting. I notice that you started this thread with a quote from Vel. I'm wondering where she got this info or if she just came to the answer through her own intuition? I am a VERY weak J and somewhat intuitive. I definitely use Ti a lot. More so than most I would imagine. Interesting indeed...
 

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Interesting. I notice that you started this thread with a quote from Vel. I'm wondering where she got this info or if she just came to the answer through her own intuition? I am a VERY weak J and somewhat intuitive. I definitely use Ti a lot. More so than most I would imagine. Interesting indeed...
Ok. This is somewhat confusing, but fun and interesting... :laughing:

I asked for a definition in tha last thread and i think that vel's post was partly (i.e. the here quoted part) in reference to my question. If so, I guess it is simply true by definition. Hopefully she can explain better herself.

Btw, how would you define "being a strong/weak J". Using a lot of Ni and Ti, and very little Fe and Se?
Well by that definition I'm a strong J, but going by kateykins examples I would be "ethical".

So something's not adding up here. How would you relate to her definitions...?
 

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I'm more intuitive Ni-Ti subtype. Apparently I have been more intuitive ever since childhood. I had an interest in subjects like sciences and math and was fascinated by more abstract concepts in physics. At the same time I didn't really take to language and literature classes much, even though writing stories is supposed to be an INFJ strength. My thoughts are apparently less people/relationship-focused than for some INFJs. I like quiet contemplation as this is when I achieve most insight into something I've been studying and trying to understand.

My Ti kicked in hard in late teens and I went on anti-depressants for a while because of it. I couldn't sleep nights and was crying every other day. MBTI types that use Ti judge themselves critically, competitively, on standard of achievement (at the same time they judge others morally, as per Fe). So if you ever felt like you are such a failure that you suck and aren't achieving - this is what Ti is in its essence, a driving force goading you towards some sort of individual achievement. It is not good or evil in itself inherently - it is only evil if you use it to harm yourself and others.


IEI, INFp, INFJ - Intuitive subtype description:
Facial expression is typically interrogative, and they seem calm, dreamy, and contemplative. Their line of behaviour is frequently passive. Romantic spirits. They live in the world of illusions, and they attempt to avoid negative emotions. They can be optimistic. They shrink away from conflict situations and support compromises. They are restrained in their clothing, elegant and refined. They can fulfill the functions of an abstract thinker, work in psychology and psychotherapy.

The intuitive subtype appears as a quiet, tactful, languid and diffident individual. They seem torn off from reality, inert and poorly adapted to life. However, such impressions are erroneous, for they possess a fine intuition, which aids them in establishing useful connections and obtaining support from influential people. Seem externally serene but sentimentally are disposed to experience moodiness and bouts of melancholy. While their voice at times seems monotonous they often induce a light surprise, even full interest, from the interlocutor. Outwardly are pensive, slightly strained/intense.. Prone to emanate sadness masked in sardonic irony. Speech is measured, smooth and intimately heart-felt. On their face they almost constantly exude a polite half-smile that easily wins people’s trust. Gestures are modest, shy. Gait is ponderous, elegant.


IEI, INFp, INFJ - Ethical subtype description:
Flatters and is charming and communicable. If they see negative emotions in the people around them, they will try to arrange things so that people will calm down. They will mobilize well in dangerous situations. Loves to be in the centre of attention and dramatize proceedings, possesses a sense of humour. They easily manipulate by intonation and voice; can work successfully as a journalist --- They easily succeed in enticing the person they talk to. Outwardly they can appear extravagant; frequently takes a bohemian and bright form.

The ethical subtype provides the impression of a soft, charming and emotional person. Usually look inspired and optimistic. Possess a fine sense of humor allowing them to list their problems and failures while smiling. Are ironic, crafty, unpredictably and inconsistent in behaviour and conversation. Creating original contrasts, they can unexpectedly prick and then just as quickly embrace/kiss. Artistic and charming; are eloquent in dialogue, occasionally portraying shades of familiarity and impudence. They’re generally affable, kind and careful. Easily draw attention and thereby attract people; talent towards persuasion: states requests in such a manner that it is difficult to refuse them. Movements are graceful as is their gait. Speech is emotional, rich with shades, sometimes melodious.
 

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Just throwing this out there...if Dave is actually an MBTI ENFJ he may relate to:

EIE - Ethical Intuitive Extravert.

Ethical Subtype
The ethical subtype tries to behave according to the rules of good form in society. Are internally emotional, but usually modest and constrained in their emotional expression. Sensitive and vulnerable, alone in a shower may often experience dramatic emotions, but in front of strangers they restrain themselves. Find it difficult to relax due to internal strains, wounds, and overarching ambitions; while internally suffering from a set of complexes, externally they appear proud and aloof. Usually cautious and prone to think actions through beforehand; nervous with themselves but patient and persistent they are able to achieve their goals. Exacting in enforcing that their associates observe ethical standards of behavior and prone to rashly provide remarks and advice when they see people conflict with these ethical standards. Mood varies: cold, haughty, obstinate and exacting, then soft, sincere, affable and seemingly defenseless. Movements are smooth, sometimes demonstrative, when they want they can dress effectively, yet modestly for the occasion.

Intuitive subtype
An original and creative person, they’re both extravagant and unpredictable. Very inquisitive and talkative; emotional enough to be impressionable. Internally intense/strained, frequently they doubt their decisions. Emotionally liberated and artistic, they easily express their feelings. Aware of the moods of others and are skilled in positively manipulating them. Speaks with feelings and enthusiasm, yet prone to irony and criticisms they sometimes project a venomous and haughty image. When in a good mood can command the center of attention within any company. Though able to fulfill practical obligations, often lack confidence in this regard. An active and social person, can switch between dressing unusually/extravagantly and simply/modestly. Movements are gusty and impulsive, lacking in restraint.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I do apprecaite all the thought that has been put into this subject. I find it very interesting indeed. I can relate to both of the posts that vel and katekinz have posted.

I have no clue whether I am an INFJ or an ENFJ, but those darn ENFJs have not replied to me on their forum after all this time, and this displeases me. :dry:

Even if I should reach another "realization" that I am in fact an ENFJ, I will continue to post on this forum. You guys are my homies. :proud:

I have to go somewhere. I will perhaps go more in-depth later on. Peace out, you badass intellectual heroes. :happy:
 

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ENFJs are extraverts and much more people oriented so they are less likely to be spending time on forums like this one.
Especially on weekends - have you noticed how depopulated extravert forums become? It's funny :proud:

Plus they have better developed extraverted sensing so are more into physical activities of various kind. I know one ENFJ guy on acquaintance level and he frequently goes sailing over weekend. He also frequently tries to associate with different groups of people, but he has trouble holding his own opinion - he is very easy to persuade into anything. I first enjoyed this easy going nature of his until I had to collaborate on a project with him and a few other people. At first he agreed with me when we talked. Then I find out he also agreed with another person who had another plan. We were not aware he agreed with both of us so both of us went around with the assumption that he is on our side. Gradually I saw how difficult it is to find out what his personal opinion and stance are, because he just always wanted to keep people happy and took pretty much anyone's side.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ok people,

I'm pretty sure that I am an INFJ.

I have to recharge my battery a lot, but I am probably still "more extroverted" than some of you are.

I am a different ennegram, or subtype, or something like that perhaps, but I'm still an INFJ.

In any case, I must apologize for some of my earlier posts. I've thought of many of you as sort of "rebellous adolescents", and you may just be a different subtype of INFJ.

And to briefly answer an earlier question from kateykinz,

If I had to choose between Ti and Se, I would go with Ti, but I still use it sparingly.
 

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Ok people,

I'm pretty sure that I am an INFJ.

I have to recharge my battery a lot, but I am probably still "more extroverted" than some of you are.

I am a different ennegram, or subtype, or something like that perhaps, but I'm still an INFJ.

In any case, I must apologize for some of my earlier posts. I've thought of many of you as sort of "rebellous adolescents", and you may just be a different subtype of INFJ.

And to briefly answer an earlier question from kateykinz,

If I had to choose between Ti and Se, I would go with Ti, but I still use it sparingly.
Haha, I don't think just because we are the same type that we have to agree all or most of the time. I bet there's plenty of times that we read each other posts and don't agree with them.

Hell, there are whole threads in this forum I think are ridiculous (shhh don't tell anyone, they may kick me out :))

It's been really interesting reading everyone's posts just because of the variety of ways we deal with things. Kind of amazing that that much variety exists in one personality type!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Haha, I don't think just because we are the same type that we have to agree all or most of the time. I bet there's plenty of times that we read each other posts and don't agree with them.

Hell, there are whole threads in this forum I think are ridiculous (shhh don't tell anyone, they may kick me out :))

It's been really interesting reading everyone's posts just because of the variety of ways we deal with things. Kind of amazing that that much variety exists in one personality type!
I agree, Sarah. :happy:

I'm about to go watch some more "Quantum Leap".

Hold down the fort while I'm gone.
 

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In any case, I must apologize for some of my earlier posts. I've thought of many of you as sort of "rebellous adolescents", and you may just be a different subtype of INFJ.
I had similar feeling when I very first joined, but I think that was more to do with the nature of the posts that were about at the time.

My main thoughts were: Arrrrgh...*makes sign of the cross, deep breaths* well, your all very deep and melencholy, and touchy feely *shiver*, apart from this Vel person who seems very anylitical. *examines self* No...I'm not seeing that...maybe it's because they are all teenagers. I mean...teenagers often get melencholy and frustraited by life, right?...but then were does Vel fit in, or the more optemistic sparky ones? *lightly touches INFJ forum* oh, it feels funny! *goes to hide with the ENTP's for a while, were it feels more "fun" and less "seriouse."* There was a period where I was thinking, am I living through my shadow type or something?

After reading around a bit more, I like all the INFJs, even if I don't always agree with them. Some are very different from me, but I just like them and their comunication style. It's nice just flouting around here with them all. It's oddly soothing. Plus, now I see you can all be good fun too. I like it when we play together, and how we generally get on. The ENTPs are fun but the can be quite brash, the tone here just feels all nice and fluid, relaxed, warm...

The Enneagram stuff made a lot of sense, especially when I read quite a few ENTP's are type seven. It also explained how my INFJ friend was so very different from me, while being so much like me. Our differences are quite pronounced, but complimentary. A definate type six and seven friendship, plus the same thinking style...me dyslexic, her with a mother who is a dyslexia teacher, and her love of helping dyslexic people/being needed, my desire to be helped, and help others, especially by chilling her out when she goes all neurotic and flappy, same interests...kind of a perfect match.

Plus knowing other peoples Enneagram types makes it easier for me to understand them, and see where they are coming from, so I like that. I want everyone to wear big badges with this stuff on so we can all comunicate better.

The IEI, INFp, INFJ - Ethical subtype from Vel's post really fits me, freakishly so. I mean how can someone know based on pionts about my personality, that I have a "melodiouse vioce"? I mean...hell, that is creepy. Does it ever weird other people out when they read stuff which has bits that sort of fit if you twist a few things, or ignore parts, then read one and feel like the person who wrote it must know you personally?
 

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I have no clue whether I am an INFJ or an ENFJ, but those darn ENFJs have not replied to me on their forum after all this time, and this displeases me. :dry:
Hey, don't give up that easily... OK, I don't want to push you, just nudge... :crazy:

When you do have the time, i think that from my impression of you on the forum so far and what kateykins wrote, going deeper in analysing your tertiary and inferior could be revealing.

Well, now that's off my chest... Sorry to bother you. :unsure:
 
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