Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,552 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Dominant Introverts: Functions and You​

One of the more interesting aspects of identifying correctly a persons MBTI type is identifying correctly their dominant driving function. This may seem somewhat simplistic to extraverts as their hearts are often worn upon their sleeves. But for introverts these are in effect hidden and thus intangible to the observer and potentially to the users themselves. Therefore I thought it wise to describe these functions and their attitudes in detail. Hopefully others will bring forward their views on these functions to reduce any misunderstandings in future.

Introverted Thinking - INTP and ISTP

Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles

The dominant introverted thinkers most enjoy the taking problems into their heads and then in detail generating a concise and accurate solution when compared to other types. This leads to a preference towards introverted interaction as extraverted stimulus can shut this process off as a distraction. It prefers to focus on one aspect of a problem at a time building that to a complete and detailed conclusion (Introverted Judging).

For the INTP the supporting Ne function is selectively used to screen ideas available from others in their surrounding environment which Ti then may judge as worth for integration to the problem solving set. If the ideas provided from others are not viewed as especially relevant the INTP may find those they converse with boring or disinteresting as it does not advance them to their current goal.

For the ISTP the supporting Se function provides a screen of the current environment providing their Ti function ready access to the surrounding world in an attempt to manipulate it and solve the problem. As the world itself is the object of ISTP support they are often less set in determining what are the useful and useless ideas coming from those around them and as a result they are often less challenged in personal relationship than the INTP as they are less likely to feel someone is forcing ideas which do not match the task at hand.

Introverted Feeling - INFP and ISFP

Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth

Introverted feeling instinctually gauges the importance and worth of actions and ideas in its surrounding environment and indeed those of others in the surrounding environment by bringing them internally for analysis (Introverted Judging). Those with dominant introverted feeling are often content to strongly state their opinions to others in turn; giving introverted feeling an interaction flavour much like an extroverted judging function.

For the ISFP the justification as a trigger for introverted feeling is supported by Se (Extroverted Sensing). The aspect of Se is such that it triggers immediate outrage as the Se digests the current situation or circumstance and Fi uses it as a springboard to action. As a further consequence ISFPs often find solace in those who act with their morals and conviction of belief as these best justify their inner vision.

For the INFP beliefs are triggered as introverted feeling is supported by Ne (extraverted intuition). Extroverted intuition supports as a submissive in this role, much as the INTP uses Ne to support Ti, by allowing Fi to considering ideas that others may hold as wrong based upon internal judgement.

Introverted Sensing - ISTJ and ISFJ

Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data

The introverted sensing function acts as a creative smokescreen in the mind of the ISTJ and ISFJ types, pulling forth past experiences and seeing similarities in form and function. As a introverted perceiving function it does not provide judgement of an object and define it externally, it provides a library of potentially similar objects and forms as a support to the rest of the cognitive set. Introverted Sensing is a concious process focussed on whatever the user is seeing in their minds eye and passively seeks out sensator experiences to enrich itself over life.

For the ISTJ the most apparent function in any interaction will be Extroverted Thinking (an extroverted perceiving function) which allows the ISTJ to favour critical idea exchange through a lense of past experiences while using thisas a method of communicating new information to their internal perception.

For the ISFJ the most apparent function in any interaction will be Extroverted Feeling with instinctual sharing of their past experience with those in their surrounding environment and counter exchange as method to enrich themselves.

Introverted Intuition - INTJ and INFJ

Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

As every introverted intuition is an ill defined process. It is an introverted subconcious perceiving process thus leaving most bewildered at its function. It imaginatively creates benchmarks and using iconology determines the similarities in ideas proposing the implications of these ideas and how they can affect the world. It is also sneakily subjective as it lends to a person a censored thought pattern to others around them as the benchmarks and iconology may bear little relation to reality but subtle guide the definition of the introverted intuitive. Over time it is passively enriched by other functions as experience is gained.

For the INFJ the introverted intuition is supported by extroverted feeling as a way to deal with the need to protect the imaginative and uniquely defined benchmarks of the Ni mindset is reconciled with attempting to gain a mutual understanding of shared external space.

In contrast the INTJ supports introverted intution by protecting their mindset by logically critiqueing their external environment using thinking to select elements of the environment which suit their inner vision.

Small Note

Most people get very confused in the different functioning between Si and Ni, therefore it is useful to have a concise description of these and the difference in how they assert themselves.

In effect upon seeing the moon an Si dominant may say 'I see a face on the moon' comparing the shapes they see etched on its surface with their internal vison of faces.

Upon seeing the moon the dominant Ni user may ponder the moon and theorise that the moon is infact a head with a personality and story after considering that someone has informed them that the moons surface appears to look somewhat like a face.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
342 Posts
Great post--presumably in the part about ISTJs, you meant that Extroverted Thinking is an extroverted judging function, not perceiving, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,552 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Great post--presumably in the part about ISTJs, you meant that Extroverted Thinking is an extroverted judging function, not perceiving, right?
You are correct, to point out this distinction and it is one I have grappled with. It is an external judging function but it is relatively weak in comparison to the internal judgement provided by Ti, thus it takes on perceiving aspect: this is probably explainable by the hidden selectivity in Si and Ni, both nominally introverted perceiving functions. I think that both Ni-Te work together to provide judgement, not simply Te judging alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
The introverted sensing function acts as a creative smokescreen
Can you clarify this? I believe your grasp on these functions are quite sound, however I have never really found a good definition of Si. Most of the definitions I have seen are people trying to guess or theorize what Si is, but they do not actually have a understanding of it. Thank you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HandiAce

·
Banned
Joined
·
342 Posts
You are correct, to point out this distinction and it is one I have grappled with. It is an external judging function but it is relatively weak in comparison to the internal judgement provided by Ti, thus it takes on perceiving aspect: this is probably explainable by the hidden selectivity in Si and Ni, both nominally introverted perceiving functions. I think that both Ni-Te work together to provide judgement, not simply Te judging alone.
Well the functions don't really operate in isolation; separating them from each other for purposes of discussion is just a theoretical idea to help us better understand our cognition.

So strictly speaking, Ni doesn't provide judgment and Te doesn't provide perception; however, for an NTJ (or SFP) it's impossible to use only one or the other on its own.

I don't understand how Te takes on a "perceiving aspect." What does that mean? Why is it relatively weak compared to Ti? How are you able to compare the strengths of the two when your introverted judgment manifests itself in the form of Fi?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
Introverted Thinking - INTP and ISTP

Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles

The dominant introverted thinkers most enjoy the taking problems into their heads and then in detail generating a concise and accurate solution when compared to other types. This leads to a preference towards introverted interaction as extraverted stimulus can shut this process off as a distraction. It prefers to focus on one aspect of a problem at a time building that to a complete and detailed conclusion (Introverted Judging).
I really, really, really, relate to the bolded part.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,552 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Can you clarify this? I believe your grasp on these functions are quite sound, however I have never really found a good definition of Si. Most of the definitions I have seen are people trying to guess or theorize what Si is, but they do not actually have a understanding of it. Thank you.
Okay, cognitive functions do not relate to how we interact with the world but rather how we process and relate to information in our brain and our thinking pathways (see cognitive). When I look at Si as it is directed internally (introverted perceotion) what I see is that as the brain receives information it instantanaeously compares this information against data sets stored in memory. Thus, with the example I gave, the Si users sees the moon and his first call is to relate this to his past images and sensing of objects, thus he cognitively concludes 'I see that the moon looks like it has a face'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,552 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Well the functions don't really operate in isolation; separating them from each other for purposes of discussion is just a theoretical idea to help us better understand our cognition.

So strictly speaking, Ni doesn't provide judgment and Te doesn't provide perception; however, for an NTJ (or SFP) it's impossible to use only one or the other on its own.

I don't understand how Te takes on a "perceiving aspect." What does that mean? Why is it relatively weak compared to Ti? How are you able to compare the strengths of the two when your introverted judgment manifests itself in the form of Fi?
I agree the functions all interact at all times but the balance and focus would appear to shift through life.

What I should say with perceiving aspect is that the external judgement is seemingly slave to internal judgement. i.e. Ti uses Fe as a way to get others to empathise with the correct perspect and agree with the user (hence INTPs great difficulty with attempting to get Fe to relate to others as it aspiratory rather than relief) and Fi uses Te as a way to point out how the correct position is right based upon external benchmarks which should be made to fit the 'right value system'.

However as the Te is dominant over Fi in preference for an INTJ we have a conundrum, the Fi is ineffect seemingly bossing the Te around in a less prefered position contrary to cognitive behaviour! Thus the Te is forced to be considerably more recessive as Ni and Fi are both forcing internal benchmarks and therefore the Te becomes a data gathering tool rather than a judgement; flipping from judgement to perception.

Therefore in the very confusing cognitive order where Ni is dominant, Ni takes on flexible aspects of Fi and Te takes on flexible aspects of Se. I have read that there is a feeling that INTJs do advance into their relief development before other types: could it be that it is because Fi is already strong in the Ni function as a natural consequence of its design and perhaps Se development is brought forward due to Te mimicking its behaviour?

Regardless, I think you can agree that internal judgement does drive external and thus the external is the weaker of the two partners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Something seems amiss for me. Although I strongly relate with ISFP, I have an abnormally strong Si. When Si surpasses Se, tests suggest I am an ISFJ or INFP. Yet the definitions of those types don't ring nearly as true for me overall. I'm not sure what's going on. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the questions, or the test answers are tied to the wrong function.

My first instinct is definitely to use the Si view of the moon (thank you for that real-life example, by the way!) and I also remember seeing images and faces in wood/marble when I was young. I would think I'm an INFP, but hidden meanings go way over my head, I indulge my senses in the here and now, and I am a very direct & detailed expressor (art, writing, etc.). These things have been apparent since childhood. I live the ordered "J" lifestyle only to gain approval in structured environments and not as a natural instinct.

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but I am hoping for a rational explanation from a Thinker's perspective...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
Okay, cognitive functions do not relate to how we interact with the world but rather how we process and relate to information in our brain and our thinking pathways (see cognitive). When I look at Si as it is directed internally (introverted perceotion) what I see is that as the brain receives information it instantanaeously compares this information against data sets stored in memory. Thus, with the example I gave, the Si users sees the moon and his first call is to relate this to his past images and sensing of objects, thus he cognitively concludes 'I see that the moon looks like it has a face'.
Yes, I completely understood this, but this was not what I was asking. Sorry, I should of been more precise with my question. What I was asking was could you clarify your metaphor(the creative smokescreen); it seemed unrelated to your defining of Si.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
342 Posts
Jim, you should write longer and more detailed comparisons of Si and Ni. Very few people on internet forums have the level of understanding that you do, and imo the two Pi functions are the ones that are most consistently misunderstood by the typology community in general. As an E__P type, introverted perception is something of a mystery to me as I've only recently even begun to understand a little bit about how to apply it myself...so it's quite refreshing to hear an I__J, the experts on introverted perception, who understands Jungian theory as well as you, describe it in depth.

Thank you.


P.S.,

Ideally I think we should look for two people dominant in each function who know type theory in great detail--we could all collaborate on writing a section about how each function is experienced through the eyes of someone dominant in it, with each function sub-section containing descriptions from both types dominant in that function.

Having people who live, breathe, and eat each function all the time (and who really know their shit when it comes to typology) describe each function seems like the most effective way to reach the greatest understanding of each one.

I'd be happy to write the Ne+Ti section.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Jung's psychological eight functions alone, or with the Myers addition of the perceiving -- judging tendency to make sixteen types, are expressions of the deeper theory of the conscious-unconscious dynamic. The most important aspect being the way the functions relate to the collective aspects human society and human nature.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
193 Posts
I agree the functions all interact at all times but the balance and focus would appear to shift through life.

What I should say with perceiving aspect is that the external judgement is seemingly slave to internal judgement. i.e. Ti uses Fe as a way to get others to empathise with the correct perspect and agree with the user (hence INTPs great difficulty with attempting to get Fe to relate to others as it aspiratory rather than relief) and Fi uses Te as a way to point out how the correct position is right based upon external benchmarks which should be made to fit the 'right value system'.

However as the Te is dominant over Fi in preference for an INTJ we have a conundrum, the Fi is ineffect seemingly bossing the Te around in a less prefered position contrary to cognitive behaviour! Thus the Te is forced to be considerably more recessive as Ni and Fi are both forcing internal benchmarks and therefore the Te becomes a data gathering tool rather than a judgement; flipping from judgement to perception.

Therefore in the very confusing cognitive order where Ni is dominant, Ni takes on flexible aspects of Fi and Te takes on flexible aspects of Se. I have read that there is a feeling that INTJs do advance into their relief development before other types: could it be that it is because Fi is already strong in the Ni function as a natural consequence of its design and perhaps Se development is brought forward due to Te mimicking its behaviour?

Regardless, I think you can agree that internal judgement does drive external and thus the external is the weaker of the two partners.

That's interesting, I wonder if that's why there are so many INTJs that initially mistype, and even initially identify as INFPs, or even at least NFs (identifying with their tertiary Fi).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Keirsey is Kewl

I'll be honest, I never got around to reading PUM2, but Please Understand Me changed my life! So I don't know much about Fe and Si, etc. And I know that exploring this updated material should be a priority, so hopefully I will get into it in the near future. What I do have going for me is many years of trying to figure out what type everyone is, and really getting into the 4 basic temperaments, cross-referencing it with other systems as well. Here is my particular slant:

Aside from everyone being unique in his or her own way, and everyone having different degrees (or percentages) within each function of behavior, I have adapted the idea that everyone maintains two temperaments that are central to his/her personality, a dominant and a supporting one (or primary and secondary). This is accentuated by the I or E function. So, using Keirsey's system, you could be an Idealist-Artisan (NFP), Idealist-Guardian (NFJ), Rational-Artisan (NTP), Rational-Guardian (NTJ), Artisan-Idealist (SFP), Artisan-Rational (STP), Guardian-Idealist (SFJ), or Guardian-Rational (STJ); then just add I or E.

Personally I like to use Psycho-Geometrics (by Susan Dellinger) when I talk about the temperaments nowadays; the Idealist is the Circle, the Rational is the Triangle, the Guardian is the Box, and the Artisan is the Squiggle (she has a fifth shape, the Rectangle, but that has more to do with going through a phase or transformation in which you are new to a certain experience, like the adjustment that comes when you get a new job, etc, trying to figure out how to blend in, finding your role or persona, etc).

You will notice with my two-temperament system that it does not allow for an Artisan-Guardian or Idealist-Rational (or the reverse of these). I believe that this logical, because those temperaments are opposites. We can spend our lives trying to become more balanced and understand the other side, but we will never become that side. Some of you may question these opposites. For the Artisan vs the Guardian, it is not hard to figure out, but for the iNtuitives, it is more abstract. Here are just a few comparisons:

Guardians enforce and follow rules, while Artisans (or Squiggles) like to break rules. Guardians prefer order whereas Artisans enjoy chaos. Guardians seek security while Artisans prefer adventure with an element of danger. Guardians impose limitations while Artisans seek ultimate freedom from any kind of restriction. Guardians are more concerned with work and Artisans with play; everything the Guardian does has to have a purpose behind it, whereas Artisans do things sheerly for the fun of it. These examples are just off the top of my head--but you can see from this that the contrasts are fundamentally different; in other words, you can't be both at the same time. You may learn to appreciate the values of the opposite, but it will never be your core approach to life.

I will try and explain why I believe NFs and NTs to be opposites without being offensive. It is true that they both share the dominant intuition quality, but their motivations are entirely different. Idealists are not perfect, but their heart is in the right place. They want to help people. They are empathic and really care about others. Rationals are more competitive. They want to get to the top and be the leader. They are independent. They seek power. However, we must appreciate their intelligence, their wit, their ability to design structures and systems, etc. And though they may seem cold at times, it doesn't mean they don't have feelings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,234 Posts
Introverted Sensing - ISTJ and ISFJ

Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data

The introverted sensing function acts as a creative smokescreen in the mind of the ISTJ and ISFJ types, pulling forth past experiences and seeing similarities in form and function. As a introverted perceiving function it does not provide judgement of an object and define it externally, it provides a library of potentially similar objects and forms as a support to the rest of the cognitive set. Introverted Sensing is a concious process focussed on whatever the user is seeing in their minds eye and passively seeks out sensator experiences to enrich itself over life.

For the ISTJ the most apparent function in any interaction will be Extroverted Thinking (an extroverted perceiving function) which allows the ISTJ to favour critical idea exchange through a lense of past experiences while using thisas a method of communicating new information to their internal perception.

For the ISFJ the most apparent function in any interaction will be Extroverted Feeling with instinctual sharing of their past experience with those in their surrounding environment and counter exchange as method to enrich themselves.
OMG there are typos in the ISTJ section. Must be fixed!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
I would agree that Ni/Si would benefit from being fleshed out more. There are so many threads on Ni and people are still confused. And probably more on a Ni/Fe Ni/Te comparison, ditto for Si, even brief, could clear up some of the issues. Fe/Te supporting can make such a huge difference.

That's interesting, I wonder if that's why there are so many INTJs that initially mistype, and even initially identify as INFPs, or even at least NFs (identifying with their tertiary Fi).
I typed as an INFP once on some test. It was hilarious.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Something seems amiss for me. Although I strongly relate with ISFP, I have an abnormally strong Si. When Si surpasses Se, tests suggest I am an ISFJ or INFP. Yet the definitions of those types don't ring nearly as true for me overall. I'm not sure what's going on. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the questions, or the test answers are tied to the wrong function.

My first instinct is definitely to use the Si view of the moon (thank you for that real-life example, by the way!) and I also remember seeing images and faces in wood/marble when I was young. I would think I'm an INFP, but hidden meanings go way over my head, I indulge my senses in the here and now, and I am a very direct & detailed expressor (art, writing, etc.). These things have been apparent since childhood. I live the ordered "J" lifestyle only to gain approval in structured environments and not as a natural instinct.

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but I am hoping for a rational explanation from a Thinker's perspective...
I have the same problem. I relate a lot to and score high on both Fi and Si, but I really only relate to descriptions of the ISFP type. And I always score higher on Ne than Ni (though still fairly low). Having a dominant introverted function really must make it harder to figure out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,397 Posts
@InvisibleJim

Excellent post. I don't think the supporting Ne of the INTP is best described as gathering ideas from others, however. If can, but that is a very immature way of using it. The Ne should be scanning the environment for trends and patterns it then rehashes and combobulates into ideas worthy of consideration by our dominant Ti. Also it generates ideas that suggest how Ti can fit them into its framework. Anyone can just talk to others...

Interesting tidbit on INTJs being quicker than other types to develop their tertiaries. I agree. I think this does not just happen with INTJ's but with a lot of introverted types, though. It can be scary using a function not of our dominant`s orientation! It is a lot simpler for an INTP to just consult Si for its ideas instead of going to Ne. So a lot of INTP`s develop unusually good memories for Intuitives and develop vast stores of facts, which the Ti finds extremely useful. They are a lot more striaghtforward than Ne`s intuitions. You just feed them into the framework! Not all INTPs fall into this trap of course, but many do and you can find a lot of Ti-Si heavy types walking around (perhaps this tendency is why you observed many INTP`s using Ne merely to suck in information)
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top