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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what conscious perception could even feel/be like. It strikes me that words fundamentally are judgements about things. To say "this rock is gray" is not a perception but rather a judgement. You have perceived the rocks color, then in tandem with your memory and an accepted term you have judged "this rock is the same color as previous objects which have been labeled gray, hence...this rock is gray." Words themselves give essence to things, but in line with...I want to say....Sartre...existence precedes essence. Judgements give qualities to things, so I would assume that conscious internal language is most prevalent in dominant judgers.

What is that like for a dominant perceiver though? Ni, Si, Se, Ne. They all have a particular thing that they notice more heavily, but what does that feel like given your dominant function is the most conscious? Is Se simply a conscious awareness of your compulsion towards certain things, is dominant Ne a conscious awareness of a hunch that something contains many possibilities and thus gives a desire to interact that is not put into words?
 

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Nope, perception is perception and judgement is judgment. Perceiving just soaks in information, judgment is what analyzes it and slaps a label on it.

I understand what you're saying about P-Doms ''insisting'' that the rock is gray, but that's just how the information is seen in their minds
 

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The way that the example is conceived is very Ti. For me, something like the grayness of a rock is just an observation that has the potential to be connected to known facts to arrive at conclusions. The grayness of the rock is not itself a judgment, but something that is observed to reach a judgment; it is a building block in the process of cognition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Nope, perception is perception and judgement is judgment. Perceiving just soaks in information, judgment is what analyzes it and slaps a label on it.

I understand what you're saying about P-Doms ''insisting'' that the rock is gray, but that's just how the information is seen in their minds
That's what I'm trying to ask. What is it like when your personality is dominated with a "soaks in information" function? The J dom would insist it is gray because judgements are in words, so every verbal thought is probably a judgement.
 

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It's a grey rock, who gives a shit, haha.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It's a grey rock, who gives a shit, haha.
The rock was an example of how even the statement "The roc is gray" is a judgement. Judgement doms would experience conscious thought verbally because language is comprised of judgements that assign qualities with symbols.

A dominant perceiver therefore would process things differently, in a more non verbal way I would imagine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The way that the example is conceived is very Ti. For me, something like the grayness of a rock is just an observation that has the potential to be connected to known facts to arrive at conclusions. The grayness of the rock is not itself a judgment, but something that is observed to reach a judgment; it is a building block in the process of cognition.
Yes, the grayness of the rock is an observation, but by putting it into a verbal form it is giving a judgement to it. It's saying "the rock is this color." If that is a judgement then it would mean judging types typically process things verbally in their mind while perceiving types process things non verbally.
 

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The rock was an example of how even the statement "The roc is gray" is a judgement. Judgement doms would experience conscious thought verbally because language is comprised of judgements that assign qualities with symbols.

A dominant perceiver therefore would process things differently, in a more non verbal way I would imagine.
It was a joke.

Surely one can verbalise a perception.
 

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Heretic
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It feels like watching something...
What else would it feel like?
 

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Perception doesn't feel like anything. It just happens. The rock being grey isn't a judgment, it's information. What you do with that information is a judgment. Maybe you like it that the rock is grey, maybe the greyness of the rock matches the greyness of the nature of existence... I don't know. The point is that percieving functions just process information. What that information means is a judgment, but not the information itself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
It feels like watching something...
What else would it feel like?
Yeah I understand that. I guess I meant to ask that as a dominant function does it give you compulsions towards things. You have dominant Ni, how does that play out. While you're watching the Ni movie what is standing out the most? Do you disengage with your environment to perceive the Ni background sensation that jung mentions when he talks about "vertigo" and the man "pierced through the chest/heart"

Edit: The reason I'm so curious is that jung also talks about how the dominant functipn is the most conscious one while the others are more unconscious and archaic. I sense I am probably a judging function as an internal dialouge is almost always going on in my head via analysis. I also suggest that language use in and of itself may be judgement therefore perception should have a non-verbal form of consciousness.
 

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Yeah I understand that. I guess I meant to ask that as a dominant function does it give you compulsions towards things. You have dominant Ni, how does that play out. While you're watching the Ni movie what is standing out the most? Do you disengage with their environment to perceive the Ni background sensation that jung mentions when he talks about "vertigo" and the man "pierced through the chest/heart"
Yeah I constantly space out and lose touch with now.
I live in an abstract world and are often jolted back to Se-ality.
Though of course I reason too, but it isn't automatic and takes more effort.
Like when I finally decided to look up some terminology the other day.
I had asked an INTP a question maybe a month earlier where some area came from.
It had revolved in my mind with the current understanding of the terms for quite some time.
Then I finally read an online encyclopedia about the terms in question.
That of course, turned everything on it's head and I started to just watch the new pattern unfold.
This led me to confront the INTP with the new updated terminology and I think he was surprised.
As suddenly my apparent take on the topic was much more advanced.
To me it was more that I finally had the terminology to express a new layer.
Cause I had seen some new links and could leverage the combined might of the two previously disconnected areas.
Both landscapes was very familiar, I had just never imagined that they where connected.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yeah I constantly space out and lose touch with now.
I live in an abstract world and are often jolted back to Se-ality.
Though of course I reason too, but it isn't automatic and takes more effort.
Like when I finally decided to look up some terminology the other day.
I had asked an INTP a question maybe a month earlier where some area came from.
It had revolved in my mind with the current understanding of the terms for quite some time.
Then I finally read an online encyclopedia about the terms in question.
That of course, turned everything on it's head and I started to just watch the new pattern unfold.
This led me to confront the INTP with the new updated terminology and I think he was surprised.
As suddenly my apparent take on the topic was much more advanced.
To me it was more that I finally had the terminology to express a new layer.
Cause I had seen some new links and could leverage the combined might of the two previously disconnected areas.
Both landscapes was very familiar, I had just never imagined that they where connected.
Can you describe the abstract world you live in? Do you have an example of how your perception plays out/what it notices compared to when you get jolted back to reality?

In order to really get a hold of perceptipn functions I really think there needs to be less of a focus on behaviors and more on exactly what is being perceived in the moment. I find most perception function descriptions to be too reduced to mean anything compared to Jung's. Jung's is good and gave a conceptual understanding but now I kind of need in theoment examples to "see" it. I think it's probably very hard for judging dominants to spot their perception functions since they will largely be unconscious and archaic.
 

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Heretic
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Can you describe the abstract world you live in? Do you have an example of how your perception plays out/what it notices compared to when you get jolted back to reality?
For me I usually represent the concept with some linked up symbol.
The symbol is represented with some shape in my mind.
I play with the shape and all the other concepts that are represented with the shape share in this play.
Hence at any time some knowledge may translate over the bridge between this symbolic representation.
Like a triangle.
It has attributes, so say I compare corners to 3 different aspects of a concept.
The triangle has more aspects than just the corners,
it then becomes a question what the lines would represent.
Is the blank space in the triangle something?
What about the area around?
The halfway point on the line?
Can the triangle be in 3d? or even 4d?
What aspects could then be covered?
When have I overloaded the symbolic connection?
Is it useful with some more complex shape?
Like what would the enneagram shape bring out if I put that over the triangle?
Maybe I should stick with a circle.
How about if I made it a sphere and had each aspect be a point on the spheres surface.
What then would be the centre of the sphere?
Is the diameter and the raidus something?

Of course I seldom are this verbal under the visualization, this would represent my Te on overdrive.
Trying to pin stuff to everything I visualize.
Sometimes I will string concepts up in different orders in some kind of system,
and then imagine the consequences in real life.
Sort of a simulation of how I imagine it would play out.
From this pretend situation, I will feed the aspects I imagined happening into some symbolic shape again.
Rince and repeat, it is just exploring all sorts of issues.
I usually fall in love with some concepts and look at them from every angle.
Just because they are familiar concepts and I like to find the next level in them, for its own sake.
Not that I cannot be motivated to deal with stuff because the real world demands it of course.
Well that is how it seems to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
For me I usually represent the concept with some linked up symbol.
The symbol is represented with some shape in my mind.
I play with the shape and all the other concepts that are represented with the shape share in this play.
Hence at any time some knowledge may translate over the bridge between this symbolic representation.
Like a triangle.
It has attributes, so say I compare corners to 3 different aspects of a concept.
The triangle has more aspects than just the corners,
it then becomes a question what the lines would represent.
Is the blank space in the triangle something?
What about the area around?
The halfway point on the line?
Can the triangle be in 3d? or even 4d?
What aspects could then be covered?
When have I overloaded the symbolic connection?
Is it useful with some more complex shape?
Like what would the enneagram shape bring out if I put that over the triangle?
Maybe I should stick with a circle.
How about if I made it a sphere and had each aspect be a point on the spheres surface.
What then would be the centre of the sphere?
Is the diameter and the raidus something?

Of course I seldom are this verbal under the visualization, this would represent my Te on overdrive.
Trying to pin stuff to everything I visualize.
Sometimes I will string concepts up in different orders in some kind of system,
and then imagine the consequences in real life.
Sort of a simulation of how I imagine it would play out.
From this pretend situation, I will feed the aspects I imagined happening into some symbolic shape again.
Rince and repeat, it is just exploring all sorts of issues.
I usually fall in love with some concepts and look at them from every angle.
Just because they are familiar concepts and I like to find the next level in them, for its own sake.
Not that I cannot be motivated to deal with stuff because the real world demands it of course.
Well that is how it seems to me.
So do you not relate heavily to the Jungian description of Ni then? Jung seems to spend a significant amount more talking talking about the internal representation of a sensation. He compares it to internal sensation by saying that it devalues the internal sensation by going beyond it to focus instead of the images that capture the essence of it. Now I can definently see this, for example "snake in my stomach" when sick. And seeing how it plays out. He spends alot of time of this side of it but less time I think on how objects/concepts themselves are alterned by Ni mentally. This seems to be the side you are focusing on with your symbolic representation of a concept or system via shapes.
 

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Heretic
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So do you not relate heavily to the Jungian description of Ni then?
No I relate to it.
That is another part of Ni you don't understand.
It is exploratory, trying to understand the same subject again from a new angle.
That is why I'm motivated to answer you now.

If I didn't do that, but stayed with the same old perspective on the topic.
Like being completely true to Jungs perspective, then I might as well tell you.
Go read Jung yourself, I do not have time for this.
This often happens to rude demanding people, who make me feel that I'm throwing pearls for swines.
By now exploring and explaining this from a slightly different take than normal,
I get the satisfaction of viewing the concepts again.
I'm litterally entering the words as I internally view it, and translating the insights.
If I was to satisfy a Ti-dom for like conceptual and theoretic correctness.
I would have to take this post, print it out, open Psychological Types, and ask myself if it is reasonable.
I could do it, but to me that seems like a very huge investment, if I'm to invest myself at that level,
I would rather have some plan to make money on it, cause else I'd feel like my job was to explain
this stuff for people, that is why I can get mad when people demand answers to this stuff.
Not only demand it, but expect it to be perfectly correct, and that all my Ni "assumptions" have been
theoretically accounted for by empirical facts.
My Ni immediately sees that the only way to do that, is to actually conduct a formal study.
Meaning that I could not say anthing on this board without attaching a PDF with empirical evidence.
Laying out all the measurements, interviews or whatever material the study provided for me to be able
to be sure that the way my Ni angled the topic this time, was unassailable.
 

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Yes, yout examply of identifying what a rock is, is a thinking judgement.

To help with sensation, it's ones awareness of what exists. Its the experience of that moment. You can see/feel/smell and take in the experience of the grey rock without necessarily identifying what it is.

With intuition its a perception of possibility/potential. Seeing how events unfold or where the object came from. Seeing how the sytems affects other parts.

Both sensation and intuition appears given. One merely see the rock, they don't have to mentally evaluate it to see it (like judgment)
Same for intuition, one can observe a pattern or feel a hunch, without mentally reasoning through to make it so.

This is very broad. The I/E distinction is where one places the perception. My reality can exist around me, or I could be aware of how my reality impacts me. I can be aware of the patterns around me or aware of inner symbols within me.

It's where one places their awareness, not the evaluation of ehat they are aware of.
 

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What is that like for a dominant perceiver though? Ni, Si, Se, Ne. They all have a particular thing that they notice more heavily, but what does that feel like given your dominant function is the most conscious? Is Se simply a conscious awareness of your compulsion towards certain things, is dominant Ne a conscious awareness of a hunch that something contains many possibilities and thus gives a desire to interact that is not put into words?
This question is similar to asking;

"What's it like being a dominant 'see-er'," (What is is like having consciousness? What does it feel like to 'have vision')? What does "seeing feel like,"

To which I will only describe the shape/color/texture of that red apple in the fruit bowl. Or describe what (Ni)-leaves behind. That is, however, not what "Ni feels like," at all. Perhaps (Ni)-feels like nothing because it is indistinguishable from other 'perceptive' cognitive-processes; as it leaves no 'unique' attribute to externally 'perceive it' separately from the process itself, and thus to be preceived by the dominant-perceiver, which emphasizes a distinction without a difference.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_difference
 

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I'm usually stuck in my head and am somewhat inattentive, so I sort of see things in the real world but don't always feel the need to identify them? Like the rock is there but I'm not paying attention to what color it is or where it came from, it's just there.

Or I won't automatically say the rock is grey. I'll look at it as a whole and try to figure out what color it is. "The rock has grey, brown, and white specks, but I suppose from this distance it is grey-ish brown, but to someone else could it be brown? Rocks of this color could be shale or perhaps it could be a piece of the road or sidewalk. I suppose that is the Ne "potentiality." When I describe it aloud it sounds far more annoying/pretentious than it is.
 
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