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I believe Si in INTPs works as an auxiliary of Ne, it gives Ti an extra perception of consistency to stabilize the angles from where to adhere it's logical frameworks.

So in INTPs Ti conceives what perception of Ne is most useful for it's framework to be logically consistent. What Si contributes to this process is an observation of how previous experience with certain approaches to logical systems have worked successfully.
Nobody is saying that every time an INTP uses Si, it implies a dom/ter loops. Of course ter functions have their utility, also inferior functions, for every type. That's evident.
We're speaking about dom/ter loops, with aux function too weakened over a long period of time, damaging cognitive processes, causing problems to the user. In this way they're described.


Part of the process could derive from your own bias as an INTP, understanding or believing that things as how they are, aren't exact enough. No previous experience could describe this, or could it? then the quest begins for ultimate understanding. When you start having problems with getting new answers, i would rather interpret this as you developing more your Si.
Hahaha. It's really funny when a blind accuses to an one-eyed for being unable to see. In this case, you're clearly showing your own bias, but you're unaware of this and more, you say I'm biased.

INTP's do not believe things are exactly as they think. Ne is a dynamic idea generator, and if it offers an idea, experience, etc that contradicts what previously we think, we change our concepts. We fix concept temporally for working with them, but being conscious that these concepts are only models. Every idea that a human being could have about reality is only a model, this is evident for every person with a minimun education in Philosophy and Science. We think in a sort of bayesian inference.

Maybe you have too much confidence in your Ni function, because it seems to me that you're in a NiFi loop and are unaware of this. Be careful. You're talking more or less as if everything could be interpreted in anyway, but what is more serious, nobody except you are able to see the "hidden truth". A classical example of NiFi loop. I can say that gravity is caused by the will of the Pink Unicorn. Nobody can prove the opposite...

Instead of seeking alternative explanations for an hypothesis which is well constructed and very logic, you should test it by experimentation. Remember your Te function?. Well, in this case, observation. Take a lot of people of known types, and talk to them about their bad "mental states". If they show a strong correlation between their types and the proposed dom/ter loops, then we can assume the hypothesis is true. If there is weak correlation, false. That's the way the scientific method works.

So don't offer to me weaker alternatives and say that they could be correct only because they could be imagined... prove them. That's simple, and easy. Use your Te, or you will remain in a NiFi loop... but well, if you like it, while you don't think I'm a reptilian and try to kill me, I'll be fine. Nobody is perfect. I forgive you.


I don't assume such a thing, assuming is rather a Ti verb :laughing:. i just pointed out how Ni-Si combo could not be called "xxxx" as in mbti typology because it goes against the theory itself.
Oh no! The INTJ conversation game again! I don't like it! It's not funny!

You said
...wait a second J's that have no judgment...hmmm??
What could be thought about this? You're saying that J's are types which must have judgements, as if P's could be without it. Now you say I'm assuming because I'm a Ti....

Every third person which read that sentence probably will think the same. You can't say now that it's my fault. A big virtue of Ti is we're able to express ideas properly and clearly, more when combined with Ne, and everybody easily understand what we want to say. No hidden meanings.

So, two options:
a) You're a bad conversationist, unable to make others understand you. Don't hope others will read your mind, the goal of a conversation is understand and being understood. I you don't want to be understood, better not to speak with others.
b) You're a mental cheater, something that INTJ's seem to love. You really wanted to say what it seems... and now are trying to convince me that not.

Anyway, the solution for this debate is simple. Test the hypotesis. That's all.
 

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You might care to take a guess that English is not that user's primary language and another guess that even though what he's saying might confuse you that does not imply anything more than that the relay of communication isn't functioning well for your needs.

His way of communicating reminded me more of an INTP than an INTJ.
 
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You might care to take a guess that English is not that user's primary language and another guess that even though what he's saying might confuse you that does not imply anything more than that the relay of communication isn't functioning well for your needs.

His way of communicating reminded me more of an INTP than an INTJ.
Unfixed, diffuse concepts and ideas = Ni. Fixed (while evaluating) concepts and search of logical consistency = Ti. Mutually incompatible. Not an INTP.
 

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Nobody is saying that every time an INTP uses Si, it implies a dom/ter loops. Of course ter functions have their utility, also inferior functions, for every type. That's evident.
We're speaking about dom/ter loops, with aux function too weakened over a long period of time, damaging cognitive processes, causing problems to the user. In this way they're described.
it's alright to believe there is such a thing as loops, my argument was rather the whole text, you try to understand it by dividing it into pieces, but if you do so you won't understand how it is developing it has a start and an end.
I believe it's not healthy interpreting all of us have personality disorders, just about jumping right into this conclusion without carefully analising whether this could be explained by other things that exist in the theory; my argument was that what you might perceive as a lack of ideas regarding the Ti-Si loop, could actually be perceived as an evolution of your own progress in INTP's dimensions.


Hahaha. It's really funny when a blind accuses to an one-eyed for being unable to see. In this case, you're clearly showing your own bias, but you're unaware of this and more, you say I'm biased.

INTP's do not believe things are exactly as they think. Ne is a dynamic idea generator, and if it offers an idea, experience, etc that contradicts what previously we think, we change our concepts. We fix concept temporally for working with them, but being conscious that these concepts are only models. Every idea that a human being could have about reality is only a model, this is evident for every person with a minimun education in Philosophy and Science. We think in a sort of bayesian inference.
See i did never attack you, i rather explained your bias (you as INTPs not as in you as an individual), of course i understand my bias is related to the change of perspective.
Nevertheless can you deny that the INTPs role as a questor isn't part of your existence? You know the models will never describe reality but you still seek for understanding don't you?

Maybe you have too much confidence in your Ni function, because it seems to me that you're in a NiFi loop and are unaware of this. Be careful. You're talking more or less as if everything could be interpreted in anyway, but what is more serious, nobody except you are able to see the "hidden truth". A classical example of NiFi loop. I can say that gravity is caused by the will of the Pink Unicorn. Nobody can prove the opposite...
You see i anticipated your ego would try to defend itself exactly as you are doing now. this is no ilusion; i almost delivered the anticipation to you so that you could understand i'm not in posesion of truth, but neither are you, there is no such thing. I have been developing my Fi indeed but i do understand i need to use this as a support. I take into account what i consider are consistent values in every action i take; that means for me when i come to the realization of how planing the ultimate robbery, my conscious mind makes me feel repulsion against it. So i can't represent no villain any longer as INTJ's are supposedly personified with; Instead when i see i can develop and do something worth of our existence i feel attracted to it. My mind would still consider this and summit it to analysis, let it develop and i still see contingencies, but now i take more into account, this is how the process manifests. Your mind can play tricks on you, in your case you found what you needed to find, a pattern in me, in an existing theory that for your minds point of view is logically consistent. But you didn't notice my patters, your mind did. did you command it to do so?

Instead of seeking alternative explanations for an hypothesis which is well constructed and very logic, you should test it by experimentation. Remember your Te function?. Well, in this case, observation. Take a lot of people of known types, and talk to them about their bad "mental states". If they show a strong correlation between their types and the proposed dom/ter loops, then we can assume the hypothesis is true. If there is weak correlation, false. That's the way the scientific method works.
i see how it is well constructed, i don't see how it is well supported, the way you expect Te to manifest is one step before what you think it is. This is natural, for me to acquire knowledge i need evidence, not the opposite. See, for you the evidence happens in yourself in your experiencing of reality. For you there is reality inside of you and outside of you. Outside of you things need to be seeked; but inside of you things are only to be filtered through consistency of logic. For me there in no line of division what i see out there is what is manifest in here; i don't alter yourself directly, i alter how i think about yourself how to approach your perspectives how to read into what you expose, evidence in words, timing, i look for how you develop your arguments, how you construct your ideas, how you elaborate, and by relating to you from your perspective while sustaining my values; and i do this because i can do this. And because i can perceive how the exterior proof, cannot neglect interior proof, nor the opposite.


So don't offer to me weaker alternatives and say that they could be correct only because they could be imagined... prove them. That's simple, and easy. Use your Te, or you will remain in a NiFi loop... but well, if you like it, while you don't think I'm a reptilian and try to kill me, I'll be fine. Nobody is perfect. I forgive you.
thank you


What could be thought about this? You're saying that J's are types which must have judgements, as if P's could be without it. Now you say I'm assuming because I'm a Ti....
Every third person which read that sentence probably will think the same. You can't say now that it's my fault. A big virtue of Ti is we're able to express ideas properly and clearly, more when combined with Ne, and everybody easily understand what we want to say. No hidden meanings.
I was relating to the irony that the word judging could be included in the description of someone who can only perceive. Assuming is to Ti, such as Identifying to Fi. (i love this riddles). But seriously that is not intended to be an offense, when you filter information logically what you do is you assume, you collect conscience of what is yours, your logical way. INTP's reality is: you look for things and select what is plausible to be assumed, how this can be correlated to other things you assumed before. Assuming doesn't need proof, that's how and why you theorize; it is in your nature.

So, two options:
a) You're a bad conversationist, unable to make others understand you. Don't hope others will read your mind, the goal of a conversation is understand and being understood. I you don't want to be understood, better not to speak with others.
b) You're a mental cheater, something that INTJ's seem to love. You really wanted to say what it seems... and now are trying to convince me that not.

Anyway, the solution for this debate is simple. Test the hypotesis. That's all.
thanks for the tips; i can give you one also. When you start to assume you can always ask for more information, ask questions. Don't pretend everything you filter is accurate, ask yourself how you came to judge that, what was your attitude when you started to read, what was in your mind going as you started to judge; How did your judgment express itself, what did it express, why did it express it in that way, how is your expression being in accordance to what you want to perceive in yourself and others. what do you expect form others, why do you expect it so? what conclusions can you arrive at from judging yourself?

i'll tell you, when i express myself i expect others to stop and think about how what is said could have a more profound meaning; i do this because i see how miss interpretation is inversely related to how much you control your mind consciously. What do you want to hear, or read? why do you want it so? how do you want it? You could see how by expressing ourselves we also give a glimpse of what is inside of us manifesting, what is our background our basis. where do my thought come from? what is the essential quality of this thinking? what was the first step i took, when was it? was it before or after i had an idea of it?

There is no solution for debating when you see it as a discussion. There is only solution when you can see what can be gathered from it, and how it can be gathered, and why it should be gathered.
 

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Unfixed, diffuse concepts and ideas = Ni. Fixed (while evaluating) concepts and search of logical consistency = Ti. Mutually incompatible. Not an INTP.
Please explain to me how the selection of information, below, is not demonstrated by the person whom you've decided to treat with a bias as an INTJ based upon your belief that the poster is primarily using Ni, keeping in mind that everyone uses all 8 cognitive functions to a varying degree of development, relying mostly upon the top 4, supposedly in a certain order of preference which correlates to MBTI theory.

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/introvertedthinking.html said:
Ti - Introverted Thinking

Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.

You could have, on another hand, looked for ways in which possibly the aforementioned poster is skipping use of Te, instead deviating from firstly using Ni to then use Fi (personal value system).


http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/extravertedthinking.html said:
Te - Extraverted Thinking


Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
Did the aforementioned poster use facts and information, or conjecture?


Also, while you desire to see how that person has communicated as indication of Ni, how is it not,


http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/extravertedintuiting.html said:
Ne - Extraverted iNtuiting


Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.
?

While my Si is trying to indicate to me just how you will likely respond and my Fi is telling me that you have your own perspective which is worth hearing, I am able to see the subjective and objective ways in which an idea which could be discussed in more helpful examples to illustrate proper understanding to a fellow PerC user are being placed aside in favor of your use of your own Si in relation to your previous interactions with forum users which you feel with some certainty, based upon your own deduction or upon taking the type listed on their profile at face value, are INTJ.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I think when I was younger, maybe around 8th grade and high school, I went through an extroverted phase. I was very silly, kind of a class clown, trying to push buttons with people, seeing how much I could get away with. I got the feeling some people were annoyed by me. Even a teacher once said to me how I was shy and quiet and just opened up.

Since then I have gone back to being more introverted, I realize now that my extroverted side is not for everybody. Did people think my extroverted side was too eccentric?
Yes, that's what leads ENTPs to appear introverted. We learn that Ne is just too weird for a lot of people and we don't have the Feeling skills (not early on, anyway) to get them to relate to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Did the aforementioned poster use facts and information, or conjecture?
NeTi likes to share the patterns it's discovered with others, but doesn't really care about proving them empirically. Ne is a lot faster than Te. If we've figured out for ourselves that it works, we don't really care if you want to wait around for scientific consensus--we've already found the pattern, tested it out repeatedly and internalized a framework to explain its mechanisms for our own use.

When you ask for more precise external evidence (Te questioning), the Ne response is simply: "Duhhh, look around you and pay attention. You'll see it." The connections are already so obvious to us that we don't really need to wait around for Te to quantify them all at dinosaur speed. We simply see the connection, point it out to others and keep going.

Whether or not you get it is immaterial. Ti is unconcerned with whether or not its systems are "conjecture", because it doesn't care about externalized logical consensus the way Te does. So feel free to dismiss all of it if you want. It's your loss. :tongue:


While my Si is trying to indicate to me just how you will likely respond and my Fi is telling me that you have your own perspective which is worth hearing, I am able to see the subjective and objective ways in which an idea which could be discussed in more helpful examples to illustrate proper understanding to a fellow PerC user are being placed aside in favor of your use of your own Si in relation to your previous interactions with forum users which you feel with some certainty, based upon your own deduction or upon taking the type listed on their profile at face value, are INTJ.
Your "Si" is not doing anything here. Your attempt to infer what his likely response will be based on the context of this conversation and its probable relationship to the future is just typical Ni.

Your whole paragraph here is basically Te complaining that Ti doesn't try hard enough to illustrate its ideas in terms that will satisfy a Te mindset. And you're absolutely correct--the problem is, nothing will satisfy a Te mindset until scientific understanding of human psychology advances far enough to render typology entirely irrelevant, so you're waiting around for something that will ultimately defeat the purpose of the entire exercise.

I used to try really hard to convince Te-ers of my ideas on typology, but I don't anymore. It's kind of funny how you guys show up and declare, "Well, you haven't provided enough empirical evidence to convince me", implying that we have some sort of responsibility to do so if we want anyone to take our ideas seriously. Either you catch on and start reaping the benefits yourself or you don't and we move on to someone who does. The best advice I can give is try to consider it in Ni terms and ignore Te's insistence that you need precisely quantifiable/universally applicable laws before you can make use of a conceptual idea (this should be easier for you than for the ENTJs, at least.)

Personally, I've just learned to not bother caring about whether NTJs believe anything I'm saying regarding typology. NTPs would do well to learn that if it's working for them, they don't need to prove its validity to others.
 

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Yes, that's what leads ENTPs to appear introverted. We learn that Ne is just too weird for a lot of people and we don't have the Feeling skills (not early on, anyway) to get them to relate to it.
Ok, so just how can one determine if one is an INTP or shy ENTP? I've had that 'too weird' experience in school too and clammed up. My Ne seems very active (I can't tell if it's more dominant than Ti though). Also, I've been told my F is well developed for an INTP.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Ok, so just how can one determine if one is an INTP or shy ENTP? I've had that 'too weird' experience in school too and clammed up. My Ne seems very active (I can't tell if it's more dominant than Ti though). Also, I've been told my F is well developed for an INTP.
It's pretty hard to tell sometimes. Basically I'd have to meet you in person and spend some time with you.

Some of my friends still think I'm INTP. You may never really figure it out, but know that the E/I digit is by far the least significant in your type. As long as you know you're an NTP that's all that really matters.
 

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I used to try really hard to convince Te-ers of my ideas on typology, but I don't anymore. It's kind of funny how you guys show up and declare, "Well, you haven't provided enough empirical evidence to convince me", implying that we have some sort of responsibility to do so if we want anyone to take our ideas seriously. Either you catch on and start reaping the benefits yourself or you don't and we move on to someone who does. The best advice I can give is try to consider it in Ni terms and ignore Te's insistence that you need precisely quantifiable/universally applicable laws before you can make use of a conceptual idea (this should be easier for you than for the ENTJs, at least.)
I think you've illustrated the differences between Ti and Te and (Fi and Fe) more clearly than anything else I've read on it. It's funny, in school I had a friend who literally was at the top of the class academically. I would have theoretical discussions about various things with him, but if he was so smart I couldn't understand why he was getting all confused by my explanations of things.. really could not grasp them. I now realize they were Ti explanations that I figured out on my own, and he was a Te user.
 

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^Side note on the above: I believe this is the case for the currently banned user JTG1984, as he consistently describes his strongest functions as Si and Fi. He identified as ISFJ, but I believe he simply assumed that using more F than T must make him an F type, which it doesn't. He displays little to no Fe, and thus is probably not an FJ type. He seems most likely to be an ISTJ dom-tert loop, Si+Fi.
Back when JTG1984 was here, I also believed him to be an ISTJ though he claimed to be ISFJ. However, after he was banned, I heard several reports saying that he was actually an ENTP. He also claimed to be ENTP as well (after getting banned though of course).
 

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okay just to make it understandable as I see it this is how I would characterize the unhealthy loops/shadows what you want to call them. If anyone has info that goes against this please direct me to it.

I will bold the functions that will be exhibited as a bad loop and compare them to the traits they may mistakenly be taken as which will be in italic.

ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

The idea being that for the introvert he will only develope introverted functions and therefore appear to be using the introverted tertiary function as an extroverted auxiliary function of another type. For an extrovert that only developes extroverted function and specifically tertiary extroverted function, it will appear to really look like an introverted auxiliary function of another type.

If we where to go by the idea that unhealthy INTPs exhibit ISTJ trait we would have to turn around on the order of the first dominant function in the unhealthy type and that really do not make any sense to me. So that what one is using as an healthy tertiary function is actually dominant in your proposed unhealthy exhibited type.

With focus on the intuitives here would be the idea you are proposing.

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

Look at the INTJ and INFJ plus look at INTP and INFP they dont match!! Thats confusing. (eventhough I can see some idea in unhealthy ENFPs looking like ENTJs)
 

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@SimulatedWorld

So what you classsify me as?

extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.2)
limited use
introverted Sensing (Si) *************************************** (39.3)
excellent use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ****************************** (30.9)
good use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ************************************** (39.5)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *********************************** (35.3)
good use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ******************************************* (43.7)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ** (2.5)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************** (32.4)
good use
I know I'm definitely not ISTP.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
@SimulatedWorld

So what you classsify me as?
Someone who needs to recognize that function tests are garbage and don't really test anything meaningful.


But if I had to take a very rough guess, based purely on these numbers, I would go with ISTJ. Here's why:

1) You scored stronger in each introverted function than its extroverted counterpart, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This suggests that you're probably an introverted type.

2) Because the gap between your Fi and Fe scores is so huge (much larger than the one between your Ti and Te), I'm assuming you are probably an Fi type, which would make you also a Te type.

3) The gap between your Si and Se is larger than between your Ni and Ne, so I'm going to guess that you are an Si type, which would make you also an Ne type.

4) Ergo, you probably fall into the Si+Fi+Te+Ne group, making you either an STJ or an NFP.

5) You don't really sound like an NFP at first glance, and as I said you're probably an introvert since all four I scores came higher than all four E scores...so I'd go with ISTJ.

Your absolute scores don't really matter here. It's the relative strength of direction of each function that we're looking for. You might very well score "high Ni" without using any Ni at all. The questions are designed to test your ability/preference for certain actions, because the authors assume those actions will tend to correlate with ability to see from certain perspectives, but there's no way to really test that.

You might learn to perform a skill from the perspective of Si that the test makers believed to be representative of Ni, in which case you would score a point for "Ni use." This is because function tests suck ass.
 

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There is no solution for debating when you see it as a discussion. There is only solution when you can see what can be gathered from it, and how it can be gathered, and why it should be gathered.
Still using tricks...

I debate with people who act as equals. I refuse to debate with people who think they're by default right or nobody except themselves see the "truth". Also you try to convince me by twisting meanings, or using a sort of "authority argument" to invalidate my exposition, proposing than I'm biased when it's obvious that you are in a NiFi loop and don't realize about this. Later you deny your intentions...

But, of course, I should be wrong, you foresee my behavior (as you said), this words and almost my entire future. Maybe you should work as astrologer... still in a NiFi thinking you've (and only you) a sixth sense. Should I say again how ridiculous this is? Well, it is not my duty to get you out from your mental isolation.

Anyway, think what you want. Debating in this conditions is a waste of time. I agree with you in this.
 

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totally thought of a cheaper less worked through version of this in my mind a couple of weeks ago.
nice to see it appear.

anyway... I think it explains myself a bit.
friends say I "think" too much now.

I have always gone intuition first but if I remain quite for too long I become "truthful" instead of creative and flowwy.
I guess Fe is unattached to Ni then.
I get stuck in Ni-Ti when I am having hard relationships and I retreat for too long or feel like my value system or direction in life isn't going in the right direction.
irronically this shuts out my Fe and I never really objectivly get a claim over peoples actions.

having my mother... a dom Fe user always helps me work on it though.

thank you for this. very insightful.
 

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This is basically what Lenore Thomson called Tertiary Temptation and Defense, minus the personality disorders. I made a crappy post about it a while ago. Ever since I first read about it I couldn't help but see myself through the lens of Tertiary Temptation.

But if I had to take a very rough guess, based purely on these numbers, I would go with ISTJ.
Wouldn't that make him INTP? The very fact that his Ti is so high and Fe so low implies Ti really is his dominant, and the fact that Si is higher than Ne means he's succumbing to Tertiary Temptation. His Ne is lower than you'd expect (but still fairly high) because he's ignoring the extraverted realm, and Se is extremely low for the same reason and because he's intuitive. His Ni is only so high because he's refusing the opposite realm and he's intuitive so he identifies with it. Why Fi is so high I don't know, but I think it's more error or the fact that he's so introverted that all introverted functions score high for him.

Edit: It's generally accepted that the opposites are Ti and Fe, Te and Fi, etc. In fact it's actually quite common for dominant Ti's to also identify strongly with Te, and so on. It's because it's the same function, essentially, just oriented differently, and not an opposing function.
 
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This is basically what Lenore Thomson called Tertiary Temptation and Defense, minus the personality disorders. I made a crappy post about it a while ago. Ever since I first read about it I couldn't help but see myself through the lens of Tertiary Temptation.
Yep, her work has been a big help to me.

Wouldn't that make him INTP? The very fact that his Ti is so high and Fe so low implies Ti really is his dominant, and the fact that Si is higher than Ne means he's succumbing to Tertiary Temptation. His Ne is lower than you'd expect (but still fairly high) because he's ignoring the extraverted realm, and Se is extremely low for the same reason and because he's intuitive. His Ni is only so high because he's refusing the opposite realm and he's intuitive so he identifies with it. Why Fi is so high I don't know, but I think it's more error or the fact that he's so introverted that all introverted functions score high for him.
The inferior function isn't nearly as weak or unused as the shadows, so no, I don't think low Fe implies INTP.

Edit: It's generally accepted that the opposites are Ti and Fe, Te and Fi, etc. In fact it's actually quite common for dominant Ti's to also identify strongly with Te, and so on. It's because it's the same function, essentially, just oriented differently, and not an opposing function.
We're using different definitions of the word "opposite" because it means different things in different contexts.

Ti and Fe are opposites, yes, but they also coexist within the same person, whereas Ti and Fi or Ti and Te never do. Ti's outlook is far, far more opposed to Te's (and Fi's) than to Fe's, so yeah, Te is very much an opposing function. Ti users will grow into a healthy use of Fe, some sooner and some later. They will never really fully grasp Fi or Te firsthand, because FiTe represents a worldview that completely contradicts the way TiFe derives its logic and ethics.

Ti dominants who "identify strongly" with Te don't really know what Te is. If they did they'd recognize the complete contradiction in worldviews implied by Ti vs. Te, as well as Ti vs. Fi and so on. It sounds like you're erroneously considering functions as individual skills rather than as overarching mindsets, which is leading you to mistakenly think it's possible to be simultaneously strong in Ti and Te. It's not. Those two perspectives clash far more than Ti and Fe (which actually are two parts of one larger unified judgment process, TiFe, once the person matures and becomes fully functional.)

Ti and Fe are compatible because Ti encourages deriving logic from inside the self and ethics from outside.

Fi and Te are compatible because they do the opposite.

Ti and Fi are not compatible because they disagree fundamentally about how subjective internal value judgments should be made (impersonally or personally.)

Te and Fe are not compatible because they disagree fundamentally about how objective external judgments should be made (impersonally or personally.)

Ti and Te are not compatible because one sees logic as something that should be derived purely from the self and believes that allowing external factors to influence logic is absurd, while the other doesn't see how logic can exist without some externalized context and objective consensus.

Fi and Fe are not compatible because one sees ethics as something that should be derived purely from the self and believes that allowing external factors to influence ethics is absurd, while the other doesn't see how ethics can exist without some externalized context and objective consensus.


More information in these articles if you need it:

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/24032-intro-function-theory-more-detailed-descriptions-each-function-attitude.html

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/24022-public-service-announcement-five-common-functional-misconceptions.html
 

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We're using different definitions of the word "opposite" because it means different things in different contexts.

Ti and Fe are opposites, yes, but they also coexist within the same person, whereas Ti and Fi or Ti and Te never do. Ti's outlook is far, far more opposed to Te's (and Fi's) than to Fe's, so yeah, Te is very much an opposing function. Ti users will grow into a healthy use of Fe, some sooner and some later. They will never really grasp Fi or Te firsthand, because FiTe represents a worldview that completely contradicts the way TiFe derives its logic and ethics.

Ti dominants who "identify strongly" with Te don't really know what Te is. If they did they'd recognize the complete contradiction in worldviews implied by Ti vs. Te, as well as Ti vs. Fi and so on. It sounds like you're erroneously considering functions as individual skills rather than as overarching mindsets, which is leading you to mistakenly think it's possible to be simultaneously strong in Ti and Te. It's not. Those two perspectives clash far more than Ti and Fe (which actually are two parts of one larger unified judgment process, TiFe, once the person matures and becomes fully functional.)
Also don't Ti and Fi come from the same part of the brain (back right, I believe)? Same with Te and Fe? (front left)

So rather than saying Ti and Te are the same function with different orientations. Couldn't it be possible that Ti and Fi are the same function with different orientations? (which would also explain why they can't coexist) Same with Te and Fe
 
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