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W. also wasn't self-conscious in the least. That's much more like a 9w8 than a 6w7.
 

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W. cooperated with almost whatever his inside cronies like Cheney and what not expected of him without ever self-questioning "Should I really be taking this path?"

that's my argument...... you, nor me haven't any idea what his level of private self-questioning was, however, the record stands as him never going against it. That's not obstinate, that's 'club'.

Reagan was the actual 9w8, he took on 'the world', he engaged everything, grandly. His own man.

"tear down that wall". We don't see him as that global unifier anymore, but I was a teen at the time and I remember it. He took on the USSR, and made them change. That was a time when politics truly was 'grand'.

It's sad to see what has happened to our democracy since. Tit for tat I guess.
 

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Yeah, obstinate about following his club of peers the same way my good 9w8 friend irl has been self-forgetting and caving in to being in a relationship with a woman he's not in love with or attracted to because she knew he was "weak" and would go with it. Now she's pushing for marriage, which again he's "agreeing" with on the outside, but stating differently to his guy buddy (me). @Full_fathom_4 Btw, I'm a 6 and I've hardly been 'club' in my life like 6's are "supposed to" be.
 

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There's a certain underlying high strung disposition I can usually just kinda sense in 6's, which I saw none of in W., and a certain dullness in 9w8's. But then, that's my perception. We can agree to disagree. @Full_fathom_4
 

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Politics? Grand? teehee I'd be very hesitant to say it ever was. All politicians are human and make mistakes, but the difference is that their mistakes affect everyone .
 

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As they say, you had to be there. You are naturally self critical and that's ok. I agree, 9 can be rather go-along in certain respects, but I'm referring to the ones who've achieved. And like I said, W. is no regular guy, having a 'silver spoon' in his mouth, IMO he doesn't expand to 3, he shrinks to it, like it was a family duty.

His isn't a legacy of grandeur, it's an 'axis of evil'. There's bad people out there and this is what we need to do, even if it means belying the realities (weapons of mass destruction, etc). You can blame Cheney, but GWB was the guy who could say whatever and tap his own instinct. Leader of free world..... The tall poppy. Please understand though, I'm not saying he can't be a 9, because he almost has no personality, which in an of itself does point to 9, I'm just making a spirited debate of it.
 

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I just want to throw a couple observations into the discussion and maybe get some opinion.

Regarding W:
Daddy Bush (H.W.) was definitely 6w7. I don't see H.W. and W. as being much alike so I can't see W. as 6w7.

Regarding Trump:
I'm curious as to why people might consider him Social first. Everything I see him do is about his own self-interest and not social interests. He pretty much doesn't care about anyone else except in how they serve his interests or narcissism. I can't see anything except self-preservation first.
 

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I say Soc first because his 'album' is strongly marketing oriented. The big letters on everything, as if he was a James Bond villain. His focus appears less regarding the quiet substance, it's 'the look' that strikes me as most important to him. And he's not a 3, so 'the look' has to come from somewhere and he's so driven about using it to appear large, expansive. His self interest is a given, the appearance of business domination.

'I'm going to build a wall, it's going to be the most luxurious wall you've ever seen, you're going to love it'.

And like I said, he's so taken to the twitter, something inside him just has have a word regarding everything in the social-sphere. Social media.....

Contrast to username Heavy.... promulgating his wares (first) to you people (second).

Also, I think that's part of the appeal of DT, that he is poor at keeping secrets, the non-politician, the devil-you-know. I wouldn't say he's a good man, but nor is he evil. His petulant nature is something identifiable among normal people.

Ps: never heard GHWB as w7.... only w5. Cheney might've been a great surrogate Dad, if a person were looking for such. I say W. looked and found, support-network city.
 

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Obama a 9w1? I can see that possibility.
Do you see a different possibility?

As for the lines of connection, someone can both integrate and disintegrate through both lines, rather than one being always integrative and one being always disintegrative. I think it makes more sense that way - when you're unhealthy you're more likely to also express the unhealthy aspects of your connecting types, and when healthy you will also show more healthy aspects in general.
 

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Beer Guardian
ENTP 5w6 So/Sx 584 ILE Honorary INTJ
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Discussion Starter #30
I'm enjoying the richness of this discussion so far. Please proceed. :geek:
 

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I say Soc first because his 'album' is strongly marketing oriented. The big letters on everything, as if he was a James Bond villain. His focus appears less regarding the quiet substance, it's 'the look' that strikes me as most important to him. And he's not a 3, so 'the look' has to come from somewhere and he's so driven about using it to appear large, expansive.
Sounds like you're assigning type 3 characteristics to the social instinct.

I think it's most useful to understand people as a dynamic between two types instead of feeling a need to place them into only one type. I also think Tritype overreaches by requiring three types, one from each center.

While I would say Trump's primary type is 8, his secondary type is 3. They feed into and play off of each other. I don't see a need to use the social instinct to explain his type 3 characteristics.

And like I said, he's so taken to the twitter, something inside him just has have a word regarding everything in the social-sphere. Social media.....
I see that as social second. IMO, the second instinct acts as a resource for serving the first instinct (i.e., sp/so because his social activities are in support of his personal ones not the other way around as might be with so/sp).

In shorthand I see Trump as sp/so 8-3.

Ps: never heard GHWB as w7.... only w5. Cheney might've been a great surrogate Dad, if a person were looking for such. I say W. looked and found, support-network city.
Contrast H.W. (6w7) with Cheney (6w5). Caveat is that Cheney could possibly be 8 instead of 6w5 (haven't dug deep enough lately and have no desire to).
 

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I hear you, I also think we are spitting hairs with DT., for the moment at least. The reason I say that is because he can be sp/so, that flows into so/sx, that flows into......Which one we're looking at is the eye of the beholder, since I'm personally on-board with stack flow theory. Maybe yours is first.

I can't be on board with GWHB as w7 however. His is just too tight and lacking experiential curiosity (not going to eat broccoli, nope, won't. do. it.), etc. Simplistic yes, but with merit.
 

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The reason I say that is because he can be sp/so, that flows into so/sx, that flows into......Which one we're looking at is the eye of the beholder, since I'm personally on-board with stack flow theory. Maybe yours is first.
I don't remember reading a good explanation of the "stack flow theory," I only remember reading that the basic theory exists. IIRC, there's two different "flows," one that is "with" and "against." And (well, call me egotistical) I think SP/SX is supposed to flow "into" SO/SP and then into SX/SO, right?

It's just, I'm too hung up on why they would flow in a syn- or contra- way, I think. Or what makes them syn- or contra- in the first place. Do you happen to know the answers, or where I might find them? And, um, preferably not a YouTube video... I have a very hard time focusing on those (ADD is a bitch) and prefer reading, if you know of a place :)
 

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I hear you, I also think we are spitting hairs with DT., for the moment at least. The reason I say that is because he can be sp/so, that flows into so/sx, that flows into......Which one we're looking at is the eye of the beholder, since I'm personally on-board with stack flow theory.
I'm not on board with stack flow theory. I guess that's the point where you and I find our differences with Trump's instincts.

I can't be on board with GWHB as w7 however. His is just too tight and lacking experiential curiosity (not going to eat broccoli, nope, won't. do. it.), etc. Simplistic yes, but with merit.
I have a different interpretation about the wings than most people. I often don't see the wing as simply another type to be added to the individual. It would take way too much explanation for me to start a discussion about H.W.'s wing.
 

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I don't remember reading a good explanation of the "stack flow theory," I only remember reading that the basic theory exists. IIRC, there's two different "flows," one that is "with" and "against." And (well, call me egotistical) I think SP/SX is supposed to flow "into" SO/SP and then into SX/SO, right?

It's just, I'm too hung up on why they would flow in a syn- or contra- way, I think. Or what makes them syn- or contra- in the first place. Do you happen to know the answers, or where I might find them? And, um, preferably not a YouTube video... I have a very hard time focusing on those (ADD is a bitch) and prefer reading, if you know of a place :)
pardon my delay, life...... right? Unfortunately I don't have any good resources (or treatise) for this stuff. I read about it years ago now and started looking at those closest to me (and me) and how they moved about within their type. How they compartmentalize their things and object relations. Perhaps it's a little self-learned, but it made perfect sense with so many people, esp if they were in one group ("flow") or another. With me, I'm Sp, but there's this extravagant look-at-me side that I get into, where I start spreading myself everywhere, culminating into some singular warped desire of simply "wanting". And honestly it's a bit psycho-health related. If I'm doing it, chances are that I'm starting to get neurotic. Like, I'm starting to run though these variants like they were "R&H health levels". Hmm. Again, others do this too..... where maybe the self contained spills out, or the all-over-the-place type becomes singularly focused in a certain fashion, in some window of their existence. In any event, I sometimes throw around that word blindspot but I don't always believe it. I think ppl er, at least I give ppl more credit, are actually doing all of their variants....some with precision others with an unlearned haste. Within which context are we examining this person, in their comfort zone or some other protracted stress area? Can we differentiate them?
 

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It's within this context that I typed DT as Soc first. Spreading himself everywhere, as a singular desire, that has culminated into a loss of grounding. I could be wrong!! My order could be out of place, but that was the context.
 

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Okay but you can be an 8 and a 3 at the same time. (Tritype)

It's your type from each Triad.

891 Body
234 Heart
567 Head
 

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That and the fact that he has no apparent history* to disintegrate to 5 nor integrate to 2 should be enough to dispel the 8 assumption. (Same with 3 disintegrating to 9 - I doubt he's done that, either.)
I would say that hiding in the shelter, when streets of Washington were filled with angry mob is, somehow, emblematory for ->5 disintegration ;)

My vote is 7w8. He's so materialistic, narcissistic, and deeply afraid of everything that might possibly be against his "need" for "more." He always wants more, of everything: wealth, status, power. He seeks out drama, and is never satisfied by his position in life. He lashes out in the most stereotypical narcissist + toxic masculinity way, but it's borne from fear that so few agree he's "the best."
First of all, he does not seem "narcissistic" (in a psychological way) at all for me. Narcissism has a shade of simulation or hypocrisy. None of these applies to Donald Trump. He exercises brutal, autocratic power - of course restricted to constitutional borders. He humiliates his former collaborators, speaks in boorish way and shows no respect to democratic institutions. 7w8 leader should be at least witty or bright and be able to rationalize his decisions in media.

A core fear, I would say, of fighting against limitations put upon him.
It is EXACTLY, what enneagram 8 does for his whole life. According to enneagram theory, Eights are struggling to reclaim as much power as possible because of their basic fear of being controlled. That's all because they associate "control" with "harm".

seems to be entrenched in the 1ish "controlling streak" instead.
Sorry, I don't see any "controlling streak". No shallow piety, no moral tirades, no forced stiffness. Could you, please, explain, what you mean?
 

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Type 2

Need to be loved

Aside from his obsession with ratings (even ratings for the corona crisis press briefings)...


...I don't think I've seen any politician who talks about being liked or loved, anywhere near as much as it appears to preoccupy him.

Inauguration said:
But Trump has managed to make the size of his inauguration crowd one of the most important issues on the planet now. How? Because he not only claimed, beforehand, that his would be bigger than Obama’s—he seems to be refusing to admit that it wasn’t. Indeed, he instructed his new press secretary (Sean Spicer) to say Trump’s crowd actually was “the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration” and to scold the media for publishing stories and evidence to the contrary. This included pictures that compared Obama’s and Trump’s crowd size that Spicer said “were intentionally framed in a way… to minimize the enormous support that had gathered on the National Mall.” Indeed, both Trump and Spicer claimed that the crowd went all the way back to the Washington Monument; Spicer even flanked himself with photos that supposedly proved it. To boot, Spicer threatened that Trump would begin to circumvent the media, and “take his message directly to the American people,” if the media continued with this kind of “dishonesty.” Worse still, when pressed on Meet The Press with evidence that Spicer was stating “falsehoods,” Trump’s spokeswoman Kellyanne Conway said that Spicer was just presenting “alternate facts” and indicated that if the media doesn’t stop lying about the Trump administration, they may “have to rethink our relationship here.”
Ingratiation
 
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