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Discussion Starter #1
If INFP in Myers-Briggs = INFJ in Socionics
and INFJ is dual with ESTP in Socionics, and
ESTP in Myers-Briggs = ESTP in Socionics then
INFP is dual with ESTJ in Myers-Briggs? and
INFJ is dual with ESTJ in Socionics.

Is this logic correct? :frustrating:
 

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If INFP in Myers-Briggs = INFj in Socionics,
and INFp is dual with ESTp in Socionics, and
ESTP in Myers-Briggs = ESTp in Socionics then
INFP is dual with ESTJ in Myers-Briggs and
INFj is dual with ESTj in Socionics...

... that's ignoring all the problems MBTI has with Introverted types, isn't it?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
If INFP in Myers-Briggs = INFj in Socionics,
and INFp is dual with ESTp in Socionics, and
ESTP in Myers-Briggs = ESTp in Socionics then
INFP is dual with ESTJ in Myers-Briggs and
INFj is dual with ESTj in Socionics...

... that's ignoring all the problems MBTI has with Introverted types, isn't it?
What do you mean?
 

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If INFP in Myers-Briggs = INFJ in Socionics
and INFJ is dual with ESTP in Socionics, and
ESTP in Myers-Briggs = ESTP in Socionics then
INFP is dual with ESTJ in Myers-Briggs? and
INFJ is dual with ESTJ in Socionics.

Is this logic correct? :frustrating:
Without going into debates on J/P switch validity and conversion between systems:
FiNe ego (dom/auxiliary) type is dual with TeSi ego (dom/auxiliary) type
NiFe ego (dom/auxiliary) type is dual with SeTi ego (dom/auxiliary) type
 

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List of duals in MBTI

ESTJ - INFP
ISTJ - ENFP
ENTJ - ISFP
INTJ - ESFP
ENTP - ISFJ
INTP - ESFJ
ESTP - INFJ
ISTP - ENFJ

Socionics duals

ESTj - INFj
ISTp - ENFp
ENTj - ISFj
INTp - ESFp
ENTp - ISFp
INTj - ESFj
ESTp - INFp
ISTj - ENFj

The J or P in MBTI refers to which one of your top 2 functions is extroverted. I'm ISTJ im MBTI, the J means that my judging function is the extroverted function out of my S and T. In socionics I'm ISTp, the p means I am perceiving dominant, that being Si.

ISTJ, ISTp, same thing, just a different way of saying it.
 

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So introverts crossing over from MBTI to socionics just change the last letter from j to p, or p to j.

For extroverts all their letters stay the same.

So INFP in MBTI is a dual with ESTJ which is exactly the same as socionics INFj being the dual of ESTj.
 

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Duality is a socionics idea. There are no duals in MBTI. Nor do any ideal romantic pairings fall naturally out of the theory. Rather, there are many ad hoc "theories" purporting to mix and match MBTI types on the basis of this and that criteria. Take your pick. I presented one matching scheme that had the merit that it was derived from a large empirical study. But when I compared it to another study I found only partial support. And socionics duality is not really borne out by experience, either, not for INTPs, anyway. And I haven't seen any other types rejoicing in their socionics' duals. So there are no confirmed theories of type and romantic relationships.
 

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Duality is a socionics idea. There are no duals in MBTI. Nor do any ideal romantic pairings fall naturally out of the theory. Rather, there are many ad hoc "theories" purporting to mix and match MBTI types on the basis of this and that criteria. Take your pick. I presented one matching scheme that had the merit that it was derived from a large empirical study. But when I compared it to another study I found only partial support. And socionics duality is not really borne out by experience, either, not for INTPs, anyway. And I haven't seen any other types rejoicing in their socionics' duals. So there are no confirmed theories of type and romantic relationships.
One article claimed the happiest couples were those in which three of the MBTI letters are the same, including N-S. Couples who shared no letters were the least happy. Duals share no MBTI letters. Other studies tend to corroborate these findings, for example, the one done by Tiegers who found people are happiest when they are similar to their partners. Duality is a bunch of shit. Like socionics.
 

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And socionics duality is not really borne out by experience, either, not for INTPs, anyway. And I haven't seen any other types rejoicing in their socionics' duals. So there are no confirmed theories of type and romantic relationships.
MY INTP father and ESFJ mother have been happily married for 30 years and I know of an ISTJ and ENFP couple that are happily married. Dad also has an ESFJ sister and they get on great.

The INTP's on this forum and the INTP's I know in real life are two completely different animals.
 

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MY INTP father and ESFJ mother have been happily married for 30 years and I know of an ISTJ and ENFP couple that are happily married. Dad also has an ESFJ sister and they get on great.

The INTP's on this forum and the INTP's I know in real life are two completely different animals.
If you paired people randomly some would be dual pairings and among these some would be happy. So the existence of a few examples of successful dual couples doesn't prove duality works. And there are studies showing it doesn't, not as well as socionics suggests.
 

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If you paired people randomly some would be dual pairings and among these some would be happy. So the existence of a few examples of successful dual couples doesn't prove duality works.
But it does prove that duality can work.

From socionics.com

However, let's not idealise these relations too much. Although theoretically relations of Duality are the best of the best, practically not everybody who is your Dual will make your dreams come true.

There are at least two conditions to be completed for a successful relationship between Duals. Firstly between the partners there has to be at least a minimal mutual attraction. Secondly and most importantly is that the partners are truly striving for the same or similar things.

Of course just because your duals doesn't mean it's going to be a successful relationship. I think what matters most is that couples share the same goals and values.

But what I have noticed in my life and on these forums is that alot of people seem to be drawn to their duals.
 

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But it does prove that duality can work.

From socionics.com

However, let's not idealise these relations too much. Although theoretically relations of Duality are the best of the best, practically not everybody who is your Dual will make your dreams come true.

There are at least two conditions to be completed for a successful relationship between Duals. Firstly between the partners there has to be at least a minimal mutual attraction. Secondly and most importantly is that the partners are truly striving for the same or similar things.

Of course just because your duals doesn't mean it's going to be a successful relationship. I think what matters most is that couples share the same goals and values.

But what I have noticed in my life and on these forums is that alot of people seem to be drawn to their duals.
Where do you see that? I haven't noticed it. I haven't seen any ESFJs hanging out in the INTP forum and vice versa. Or ISTJs mixing it up with ENFPs. Or ESFPs hanging around INTJs. And so on.
 

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Where do you see that? I haven't noticed it. I haven't seen any ESFJs hanging out in the INTP forum and vice versa. Or ISTJs mixing it up with ENFPs. Or ESFPs hanging around INTJs. And so on.
Here's the best example: http://personalitycafe.com/istj-forum-duty-fulfillers/7682-istj-enfp-relationships.html

I have noticed that a few INTPs who speak about marriage say that they're married to an ESFJ or ENFJ. Whether that happens more often than by chance I can't really say. ENTP-INFJ relationships are pretty popular and I suspect that a fair number of ENTPs are actually SLE or the INFJ being SEI. The same could be said for ENFP-INTJ relationships.
 

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Where do you see that? I haven't noticed it. I haven't seen any ESFJs hanging out in the INTP forum and vice versa. Or ISTJs mixing it up with ENFPs. Or ESFPs hanging around INTJs. And so on.
There is a whole stickied thread on ISTJ ENFP relationships in the ISTJ forum. And if you look around long enough you'll see people talking about being in a relationship with their dual. There was an INTJ taking about being in a relationship with an ESFP on the ESFP forum the other day.

Every so often you'll get INFP's and ESTJ's talking about being in relationships with each other.

Here, ENTJ ISFP relationships. http://personalitycafe.com/isfp-forum-artists/4281-female-isfp-male-entj.html

Here's an INFJ talking about being in a relationship with an ESTP.

 

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If INFP in Myers-Briggs = INFJ in Socionics
and INFJ is dual with ESTP in Socionics, and
ESTP in Myers-Briggs = ESTP in Socionics then
INFP is dual with ESTJ in Myers-Briggs? and
INFJ is dual with ESTJ in Socionics.

Is this logic correct?
You need to write the last letter lower-case when you are talking about Socionics types. Socionics doesn't assign j/p letters in the same way as does MBTI. To signify this difference between these two typologies, the last letter in Socionics is written in lower-case while in MBTI it is written in upper-case. (You can also use the 3-letter codes when talking about Socionics types to avoid this confusion.)

To check your logic:

INFP (FiNe) is dual with ESTJ (TeSi) in MBTI and
INFj (FiNe) is dual with ESFj (TeSi) in Socionics

so you are correct, and you can see how that conserves cognitive functions which are the foundation for Duality.
 

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@Metekingi

Sure, and how did that ESTP work out for her?

Most INFJs are not into ESTPs. Most INTJs are not into ESFPs. Most INTPs don't like ESFJs and vice versa. The studies of Fisher and Tiegers underscore this point. Especially Tiegers who showed that the NF-SJ relationships were the least successful. In fact, all of the N-S relationships were less successful than the N-N and S-S ones. In large studies, duality is not the most successful choice.
 

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@Metekingi

Sure, and how did that ESTP work out for her?

Most INFJs are not into ESTPs. Most INTJs are not into ESFPs. Most INTPs don't like ESFJs and vice versa. The studies of Fisher and Tiegers underscore this point. Especially Tiegers who showed that the NF-SJ relationships were the least successful. In fact, all of the N-S relationships were less successful than the N-N and S-S ones. In large studies, duality is not the most successful choice.
:rolleyes:Again...

Quote Originally Posted by ae1905 View Post
If you paired people randomly some would be dual pairings and among these some would be happy. So the existence of a few examples of successful dual couples doesn't prove duality works.

But it does prove that duality can work.

From socionics.com

However, let's not idealise these relations too much. Although theoretically relations of Duality are the best of the best, practically not everybody who is your Dual will make your dreams come true.

There are at least two conditions to be completed for a successful relationship between Duals. Firstly between the partners there has to be at least a minimal mutual attraction. Secondly and most importantly is that the partners are truly striving for the same or similar things.

Of course just because your duals doesn't mean it's going to be a successful relationship. I think what matters most is that couples share the same goals and values.

But what I have noticed in my life and on these forums is that alot of people seem to be drawn to their duals.
 

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So what? You haven't shown the occurrence of these relationships is any higher than chance. And you're ignoring the majority of people who are not attracted to their duals. Also, according to socionics, duality is the ONLY relationship that can work. And this is patently false. So there is no reason to think duals are any better relationships than any other. On the contrary, there are many reason to think they are not.
 

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Where do you see that? I haven't noticed it. I haven't seen any ESFJs hanging out in the INTP forum and vice versa. Or ISTJs mixing it up with ENFPs. Or ESFPs hanging around INTJs. And so on.
There are almost no ESFJs on this forum. They live out in the real world rather than in virtual reality, so I doubt you'll see them hanging out in mass on the INTP forum -- even on their own forum there are almost none!!!

The ENFPs and ISTJs have a thread going for themselves: http://personalitycafe.com/istj-forum-duty-fulfillers/7682-istj-enfp-relationships-184.html The IEE-SLI couple is in my opinion one that dualizes most often. ENFPs are very keen psychologists and figure out quicker than some other types who balances them out.

The INFJs tend to mis-type the ESTPs they are with into ENTPs as the video above shows, mostly due to intuitive bias in MBTI where any S-types with a modicum of imagination and creativity gets typed as an intuitive. Though Mirage is still a very popular relationship type: it's relaxing and easy-going, you can talk about everything and anything, and some people prefer that -- so there are still plenty of INFJ-ENTP couples out there.


I'm not drawn to my duals specifically, but to all people of compatible temperament (SEEs, ILEs, IEEs), also my benefactor and beneficiary, supervisor and supervisee types. There is initial attraction in several types of relations besides duality, and since almost 80% of posters on this forum are 25 y.o. or younger and in the experimental stage of their life, you'll see all kinds of relationships being talked about on here and not only duality. It takes some time and years of bouncing around relationships that don't work to figure out what does work for you :wink:
 

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If you paired people randomly some would be dual pairings and among these some would be happy. So the existence of a few examples of successful dual couples doesn't prove duality works. And there are studies showing it doesn't, not as well as socionics suggests.
Can you cite some studies that prove socionics duality doesn't work?
 
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