[Stawker]

I've noticed this habit in NTJs (mostly INTJs) of rationalizing their suffering by appealing to everything wrong in the world. I myself am guilty of that. Find me on a bad day, ask me about it, and I'd give you an hour long tirade on environmental destruction or the dangers of the arms race. And that, according to me, will be the reason why I'm so very sad today. But that couldn't be farther from the truth. It's just impossible to feel that strongly for something without immediate perceptual stimuli. And not to mention those lofty problems persist even on my 'good' days. So why do I do it? Well, do you do it? Why?

I've noticed this habit in my INTJ friends too. One of them is sad because he has failed to make any friends at College even after 3 months and for all these months he only blamed it on the College for being shit and stress-inducing. Thankfully, he's come to terms with the fact that he's only sad because he has no friends. The other one just got buttfucked in the mids exam but he'll kill himself before he admits that he's sad because of the mids. Instead he insists that he's sad because of all the poor people of the world who are getting crushed under the capitalistic machine and whatever.

Similar cases can be observed even in fictional NTJs. Raskolnikov (INTJ) of Crime and Punishment is angsty, probably because he didn't shower for weeks and that he lives in a shithole smaller than his heart but he goes ahead and contrives a mega narrative of the injustices of the world, how money is in the hands of people who don't deserve, and that becomes his cathexis for the rest of the novel until he does something he shouldn't have. Light Yagami (ENTJ) maligns the whole world because he's sexually frustrated to the point of turning asexual??? I don't know man, it's just hard to imagine that someone who doesn't even leave his room for weeks except to distribute hand-written assignments like a bitch class representative can care that much about how fucked up the world is.

Upon honest reflection on myself, I've found only one answer: I'm embarrassed to admit the reasons for my feelings. They are not...lofty, or sophisticated, enough. The intensity of my emotions warrant a better rationale than that goddammit. But reality is disappointing. I can't change the fact that I have inferior Fi but hell yeah I can contrive any bullshit theory to counter that problem. And that's where many big problems begin. If only I could come to terms with the real causes of my emotions at the right time and place, I could have avoided so much bullshit I don't want to look back on. I think I'll probably buy a robot that screams 'YOU ARE A FUCKING MAMMAL!' on my face every morning to wake me up.

 

[Catwalk]

I suppose because self-depreciation and/or self-reflection is my internalized business that does not instinctively come out on its own, I can address (X)-failures/causes induced via myself without projecting it into the environment and/or expressing it to others -- and make such improvements (&) changes through myself without articulating it, as there is simply no need - and I reckon many humanoids misinterpret this only looking at (external)-factors for my own suffering, or perhaps there being an absence.

And, the ('environment'), it something that, indeed, should be externally critiqued, because (X)-changes can be externally addressed (rather than high-functioning psychological-reflection(s)), that are bit more complex.

Of course; I can read a long-list of "self-disappointment(s) / errors," to a list of associates, although, what for? It is easier to say (X)-object was misplaced, than to also add, I wasn't looking where I were walking, as well.

That, and I prefer any ('strong psycho-reflection') to be done in privacy, if it is shared at all. I generally find strong psychoanalysis time consuming, unnecessary, and inappropriate for certain environment(s) within certain contexts, because such psychoanalysis should be done in more practical-context(s), so it can be done properly. The same with projecting ones (personal) self-reflectors into the environment; there is a time (&) a place for such affairs, and it is usually in a leisure settings - or with a specimen I am comfortable with -- anywhere appears unneeded.

I do not see a practicality in deep analysis / strong self-detail of my emotion(s); simply knowing causing-points is enough for myself in this regard; (external stimuli), for myself to address them -- perhaps it is all a series of linked-event(s) from the past starting at childhood, not sure if I care enough to decipher myself to [pieces] without any goal besides 'knowing about it'. There must be some action-plan. If I do (X); will there be steps on how to fix it? There is a certain degree of instability that occurs going too far for the sake of going somewhere that does not interest me.

(Ni-favoritism) work(s) in the opposite direction.


On another cue, while such 'causes for my suffering,' are not projecting into the environmental-atmosphere, there is a [great-deal] of internalized-self critiquing happening, to the point some psychologists would call unhealthy.

There is a part of myself that is always working on something internally related-to myself, so I suppose it never occurs to mention it that I am, or pay mind to it and such inner-reflections are useless unless they are being (met) with external awareness/changes, as well. It is similar to my (Ni). It is always working, thus, never occur(s) to be attentive towards it. I am always 'self-improving,' so, I turn externally to the environment [and see what can be done/helped there to make things easier -- which I suppose, neglects some detailed-stimulus different types of specimen(s) are searching for and/or more sensitive towards.

When someone asks; of course I self-reflect, I readily say, I have been "shit-talking," in my head all morning. It is why I showed up. The dry truthful humor commences. Heh.

 

[lilysocks]

i don't think it's just intjs. off the top of my [very permeable recently] head i can think of three or four different real-life people i know, who madden me and completely crush any interest i have in listening to them, by doing exactly this thing. and i rarely speculate about the type of real-lifers but each of them is in the 'will eat bug if they're intj' category.

i don't think it's something i do. i sure hope not, because i find it so . . . embarrassing isn't a strong enough word. i can see sorting through the system around an emotional thing so as to get a wide context to centre it in. but pretending the centre's not even a thing . . . it just seems infantile to me, to a point where it's hard for me not to perceive the person doing the whining and lashing out as deformed. it's like toddlers hitting the piece of furniture that they hurt themselves on.

edit: i think what gets me is the they-should-just-magically-be-different thing. that probably is the thing that i have so much trouble with. yes, isolate the system factors that play into a thing; sure, draw accountability lines wider than your own self if you like. but just standing in a diaper that's full of shit and roaring that this thing that displeases you Just Should Not Be simply because it's displeasing to you . . . yeah no. i can't deal with that.

 

[ninjahitsawall]

I don't externalize to that extent, but I have found myself rejecting the most common-sense explanations for why I feel a certain way. Hard to tell if it's just rationalizing or going off past experience ("but this never bothered me before, so that's probably not it"), or maybe a combination of both (rejecting the possibility that my emotions would be that unpredictable, and something that never bothered me before suddenly would, aka a new burden I have to address). Usually it's just that that explanation doesn't fit somehow. Often it's suggested by others in a simplistic way that, yeah, makes it seem really trivial, and is also an incomplete picture.

Although another possibility for externalizing is that if you are in a negative mood, you're going to tend to project that outwards. So maybe already feeling like shit does make all the world's problems seem more upsetting, and more prominent in your mind; you've just reversed the temporal order in your head (i.e. saying the world's problems are what's making you feel bad).

 

[ponpiri]

I don't relate to this. I actually enjoy finding the true causes for my feelings at any given moment; the bigger or more dramatic the emotional response, the more there is to investigate. Maybe I've done this when I was younger and uninterested in and unable to [in some cases] understanding my emotional state, but that isn't the case today.

 

[Inveniet]

From a Jungian perspective this is about the shadow.
NTs don't usually consciously reflect much about how the larger picture relates to values.
Hence we can be stone cold about that stuff,
yet if we are exposed to those same values right in front of us it hurts and is harder to repress.
Trying to repress that stuff can cause so much stress that the shadow shows its face.
Hence we become dark shadow NFs that in a frantic way gets swallowed by all the wrongs in the world.
NFs are more able to deal with that stuff consciously, but we are just blindsided into meaningless rants.
If we stay long enough to take action on it, it is very seldom positive.
NF demands ST action, that level of shadow is the kind of place
nuclear weapons and death camps flow into reality from.
I won't do into details on why this is so,
I think OP might remember a thread in the ENTJ forum where this was touched on.
Revisit that if necessary.

 

[Dare]

This isn't only an XNTJ thing in my experience. Yesterday my ISFP friend, clearly frustrated, went on and on about how much she hates her life, things need to change, she's going to change her college choice, career asperations, where she plans on living, her clothes, she's going on a diet etc etc. After calmly listening to this for a while, I interjected: "so he still hasn't called, eh?"

I figure she was doing it to regain some sense of control. Others do this sort of rationalization to avoid responsibility, be lazy, save ego. My (ex) INFP friend used to give me her version of Das Kapital. To me the ruse was up the moment she mentioned that successful capitalists should pay for her to live freely and do nothing. It was obvious she hated her personal situation but only felt vitriol towards the successful. Next.

Last week my ENTP friend informed me that these past two months (since school's been back) "have been the worst in his life" bc (now very busy) me isn't responding to every one of his oh so many texts. He asked why I can't be like "normal people". In other words, when he feels bad, I am bad. When he behaves badly, I'm bad. Magic. He and my ISTJ father, the master of displaced aggression, should compare notes.

I like to think I don't do that, that I'm more internally honest, know my emotional triggers, take repsonsibilty, utilize self acceptance/forgiveness and keep an eye towards growth/improvement opportunities. In certain circumstances I might tell myself "it could be worse" (or similarly) rationalize to feel better, but I don't shift the cause or dodge responsibility.

Although in the generic INTJ descriptions some say we don't accept responsibility well. Combine that with our tendency towards idealism and it becomes clearer why an INTJ might be looking to world hunger when they botched an exam. It's classic projection (I'm not bad, they're bad), projected unusually far with the help of Ni. I like results (well developed Te) and irresponsibility is an emotional trigger for me (irony) so I personally don't do that.

Biochemistry could conceivably play a part. Since anger is a no no in polite society, even the simmering indignation variety that drives e1 INTJ Elon Musk, those predisposed to it will be asked to explain themselves/rationalize. Some people are naturally happier than others ('happiness set-point' idea). I know some melancholics who are never happy and there is always a reason (apparently). INTJs are most frequently melancholic in temperament (but not always, I'm phlegmatic-sanguine or calm-happy).

Also, some people ruminate and make the problem feel bigger (and then they rationalize they must have a BIG problem, like my ISFP friend did). I wonder if 'intense' types do a similar thing with intensity. People also tend to scan for 'what happened' when they bother facing their feelings. This doesn't pick up long overlooked needs very well. And basic needs can seem awfully pedestrian. I can laugh at myself but then my mind is never far from being an animal. I really enjoy being reduced back down to it actually. No screaming robot required.

 

[Stawker]

I suppose because self-depreciation and/or self-reflection is my internalized business that does not instinctively come out on its own, I can address (X)-failures/causes induced via myself without projecting it into the environment and/or expressing it to others -- and make such improvements (&) changes through myself without articulating it, as there is simply no need - and I reckon many humanoids misinterpret this only looking at (external)-factors for my own suffering, or perhaps there being an absence.

And, the ('environment'), it something that, indeed, should be externally critiqued, because (X)-changes can be externally addressed (rather than high-functioning psychological-reflection(s)), that are bit more complex.

Of course; I can read a long-list of "self-disappointment(s) / errors," to a list of associates, although, what for? It is easier to say (X)-object was misplaced, than to also add, I wasn't looking where I were walking, as well.

That, and I prefer any ('strong psycho-reflection') to be done in privacy, if it is shared at all. I generally find strong psychoanalysis time consuming, unnecessary, and inappropriate for certain environment(s) within certain contexts, because such psychoanalysis should be done in more practical-context(s), so it can be done properly. The same with projecting ones (personal) self-reflectors into the environment; there is a time (&) a place for such affairs, and it is usually in a leisure settings - or with a specimen I am comfortable with -- anywhere appears unneeded.

I do not see a practicality in deep analysis / strong self-detail of my emotion(s); simply knowing causing-points is enough for myself in this regard; (external stimuli), for myself to address them -- perhaps it is all a series of linked-event(s) from the past starting at childhood, not sure if I care enough to decipher myself to [pieces] without any goal besides 'knowing about it'. There must be some action-plan. If I do (X); will there be steps on how to fix it? There is a certain degree of instability that occurs going too far for the sake of going somewhere that does not interest me.

(Ni-favoritism) work(s) in the opposite direction.


On another cue, while such 'causes for my suffering,' are not projecting into the environmental-atmosphere, there is a [great-deal] of internalized-self critiquing happening, to the point some psychologists would call unhealthy.

There is a part of myself that is always working on something internally related-to myself, so I suppose it never occurs to mention it that I am, or pay mind to it and such inner-reflections are useless unless they are being (met) with external awareness/changes, as well. It is similar to my (Ni). It is always working, thus, never occur(s) to be attentive towards it. I am always 'self-improving,' so, I turn externally to the environment [and see what can be done/helped there to make things easier -- which I suppose, neglects some detailed-stimulus different types of specimen(s) are searching for and/or more sensitive towards.

When someone asks; of course I self-reflect, I readily say, I have been "shit-talking," in my head all morning. It is why I showed up. The dry truthful humor commences. Heh.

On the contrary, this search for the actual reasons entails a much easier path than contriving the most sophisticated and lofty narrative for your sadness. All you need to do is interject the question 'What went wrong today?' every time you find yourself bothered a little too much by things that don't normally bother you. This actually saves cognitive load.
@Dare
Ever entertained the thought that your ENTP might have a crush on you? (or an emergency crush, so to say)

 

[Dare]

@Dare Ever entertained the thought that your ENTP might have a crush on you? (or an emergency crush, so to say)

You've finally murdered my thinking.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head.

Yeah.

No.

I told him it's never going to happen back in 2013.

I hate having to repeat myself!

 

[Vain]

First, I feel like saying I'm not a standard INTJ. So my post is not very helpful to you, perhaps. (It is to me, though. Since I'm practicing my English.)

To the point:
The main thing I put in consciousness is my feelings. That means I am aware very well of how I feel and why.
I am calm 99% of the time.
And when I am not, I "ask" myself: "How do I feel? Why? Can I do something about it?"
I "ask" that to be calm again, of course.

To another point you mentioned:
I usually don't blame others for anything. The only person I blame when there's something I care about which goes wrong is me. (Something I care about is my feelings, for ex.)
I always blame myself, because I expect myself to do not trust people to do things that are not their interest. So I don't blame them, they act like they should in this world.
I blame *myself* when I fail in one of my interests.

Also, I don't talk shit. I don't talk about "all the poor people of the world who are getting crushed under the capitalistic machine and whatever."
I don't care much about them, mostly because I can't do anything about it. There are other things I should worry about, such as my problems. (Plus, I am capitalist.)

 

[brightflashes]

The first thing that comes to mind when reading the OP is locus of control. I think some people have really been victims of their environment. For example, perhaps they were born into an abusive or dysfunctional household, or maybe they have unfair disadvantages based on "the system", but these disadvantages are not imagined.

I think that for people who have a primarily external locus of control, they have learned that this is the way the world works. And, if you're talking about relatively young people in early adulthood, they have not yet had enough experiences to counter this view.

So, I think that it might more be a developmental and circumstantial phenomena.

Like others have said, I also don't see myself in the description you've provided. However, I do know I've gone through times where my own personal understandings and the understandings of those I'm in contact with cannot begin to explain something, so I cry out to the world for being the way it is. A personal example of this is when dealing with a clump of deaths in a short period of time in my teens.

 

[martinkunev]

I wouldn't say I rationalize everything using the world as an excuse. I did it to an extent before, but now when I look at that behavior of mine it seems immature. Also, I don't see a reason to rationalize... it doesn't bring me satisfaction. Pragmatically, the best thing you can do is just learn from mistakes and do your best to fix problems.

The closest feeling I experience is anger and some kind of desparation for the things I would like to change but are out of my control.

When something goes wrong I try to understand the reasons. If it's something about me personally, I usually end up convinced that it's because of what my parents did or didn't do when I was a child. I wouldn't call this rationalization, because it doesn't provide any counseling - the problem is still there and blaming people wouldn't solve it.

In the end it probably comes down to emotions influencing our judgement (yes, we are mammals). I'm pretty sure it's something one can grow out of to an extent. With knowledge, self esteem rises and at some point one is so confident in themselves that they only see problems in others - kind of like in the graph:

http://www.economicthought.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/knowledge-and-confidence.jpg

 

[ninjahitsawall]

If we stay long enough to take action on it, it is very seldom positive.
NF demands ST action, that level of shadow is the kind of place
nuclear weapons and death camps flow into reality from.

Damn, there was a fairly spooky YouTube video I saw once that went into the shadow aspect of Hitler's psyche, and how all his ideas and atrocities were projections of all the parts of his unconscious he rejected in himself.. but I can't find it now..

You've finally murdered my thinking.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head.

Yeah.

No.

I told him it's never going to happen back in 2013.

I hate having to repeat myself!

lmao. your ENTP friend reminds me a lot of my ENTP (ex?) friend. We haven't talked in over a year though, aside from a few random texts I got from her. Mostly because I think she knows on some level I can't handle that level of cray, and has finally left me alone (essentially her brain kind of jumped the shark during election season).

Anyway your first post about the misplaced aggression reminds me of a time ENTP was in my neighborhood and wanted to hang out, I said that I couldn't because I already had other things I was doing at the time, she got all offended and said I should take it as a compliment that she wanted to spend time with me. lol

 

[ninjahitsawall]

Like others have said, I also don't see myself in the description you've provided. However, I do know I've gone through times where my own personal understandings and the understandings of those I'm in contact with cannot begin to explain something, so I cry out to the world for being the way it is. A personal example of this is when dealing with a clump of deaths in a short period of time in my teens.

I think this is what I was trying to get at in my first post about certain emotional responses that I can't make sense of. It seems my biggest issue with "rationalizing" isn't really the "coming up with excuses" type of rationalizing, but literally "looking for a plausible reason" kind of rationalizing. I can't just sit with the idea that there's no explanation. No. Everything has an explanation, if you look hard enough you will discover it.

For example, I've often struggled to figure out why the current economic system makes me squirm on some level, and ended up in my head blaming it on the fact the entire economy is based on debt. It seems like all monetary value, including measures of GDP which label the developed world as "wealthy", is all a lie. But then I have to wonder why that would bother me more than it does most people. Especially when I'm not an expert on this topic. Then again there are supposed experts who work within this system, so can they really be trusted to question its weaknesses? And so I go on and on like this trying to make sense of my own psychological discomfort...

So according to the premise of this thread, maybe I'm just a very greedy person and if I were wealthy, none of this would bother me because the "fake money" system would be working in my favor. So who cares if it's fake?

Not sure if that's the case though, and I probably never will since I can't be arsed to make getting rich my life goal.

 

[Inveniet]

Damn, there was a fairly spooky YouTube video I saw once that went into the shadow aspect of Hitler's psyche, and how all his ideas and atrocities were projections of all the parts of his unconscious he rejected in himself.. but I can't find it now..

Sure, but Hitler was possessed by archetypes he projected not only his personal unconscious,
but the collective unconscious on behalf of the collective consciousness.
The forces at play in Nazi germany was pretty intense.
A whole people identifying with an idea to the bitter end.

If one buys into the "wheel of the socion", then Hitler was a necessity on a mass level.
Now and then humanity needs to let off some steam in a mass chaos.
If this is true or not can be debated.
Personally I think it is a truth in it,
but that it isn't so clean and systematic as Socionics makes it out to be.
Just as you can't time when any particular individual will blow up,
you can't time when any particular group will blow up.
Yet the pattern is there, and when it is enacted, it enlists the shadows of everyone.
That is why NFs like Hitler can be so dangerous when twisted.
Because they enlist the group and give the group permission to do anything.
The group have all the types and their evils at its fingertips and can conjour up every evil imaginable.

 

[ninjahitsawall]

you can't time when any particular group will blow up.
Yet the pattern is there, and when it is enacted, it enlists the shadows of everyone.
That is why NFs like Hitler can be so dangerous when twisted.
Because they enlist the group and give the group permission to do anything.

I thought the unpredictability itself was the most dangerous part. No way to anticipate it.

 

[jtour]

Hmmm. I'm still not quite understanding the rationalization. I think I can understand that some people -- most people, probably, being IMHO kind of sneaky, prone to hiding whatever evil man is capable of under layers of misdirection and self-delusion -- rationalize anything and everything. I'm sure if it works for them, good for them. It wouldn't surprise me.

I have profound (not that my thoughts are deep, rigorous [if that word is applicable], or especially penetrating) criticisms of virtually every aspect of contemporary American culture, but it never occurred to me that this has something to do with whatever patterns of thought (or to borrow a phrase of Wittgenstein, "forms of life") I've developed.

However, this may be itself a kind of shallow rationalization. Yes, I have strong beliefs about what a coherent culture founded in some of the principles of the Age of Enlightenment could be, while knowing pretty well how the history of the United States effectively has, through demographics, importation of other cultural ideals which have remained fairly consistent and pervasive throughout the development of the North American colonies in general, and so forth, effectively made such ideas just idle fantasies.

In what way could that be a rationalization? In just this: my conviction that I'm basically correct, and that allowing some non-mainstream-to-modern-Western-civilization elements to persist without a quiet, resolute opposition, may possibly be an excuse to bolster my ability to navigate a world that I see as very much troubling and deeply, dangerously flawed.

In other words, just a slightly disguised attempt to put myself in a tribe that I see as winners, de jure, and to continue happily in this attitude at the expense of creating a simplification of an enemy tribe within my own borders, as an American.

I'm not sure this is unhealthy -- though some old crank like Hegel would probably patch it right into his machinery, even a broken clock is right sometimes -- but it's possibly, if not a rationalization, a crude simplification of a very complex network that is, ultimately, a self-serving, myopic, and childish viewpoint that I've latched onto out of laziness and some desperate attempt to get along in a world whose direction I am not happy about.

 

[Inveniet]

I thought the unpredictability itself was the most dangerous part. No way to anticipate it.

Yeah well if the theory has any merits, one should be able to use it for predictions.
Problem is that no one of any merit, will take it serious enough to take any noteworthy action.
Besides the theory only has as much predictive power
as the mind used as a lens to predict with it.
Meaning that low Ni and especially low N types,
will find it hard to accept that there is any ground for concern.
Most people think the nazis are a one in a million year fluke.
That is why there is the obsession with repressing the swastika
and the people who hold the tenets of nazism.
But, the collective unconscious don't care about any paricular shape nor any particular creed.
It can let out its steam under any guise,
and wreck untold evils in the name of trying to prevent evil if it must.
Given enough time, the noblest virtue become blacker than death.
It is part of human nature, we are not a very nice bunch.
The irony is that Trump is actually good for the world,
maybe by creating some chaos now we can avoid major chaos later.
Or maybe he is too late and the chaos chain he unleashed
will purge us with fire that makes WW2 look like a warmup.
Like you said, the unpredictability is the real danger.
If anything Trump didn't have to endure the WW1 trenches.
maybe his privileged life keeps him from going off the rails.
We will just have to see.

 

[Stawker]

You've finally murdered my thinking.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head.

Yeah.

No.

I told him it's never going to happen back in 2013.

I hate having to repeat myself!

I'm sorry I wasn't there for you in 2013. Still though, your ENTP having a crush on you explains his behavior perfectly. Much better than 'ENTP gone wrong' descriptions do.

 

[Dare]

I'm sorry I wasn't there for you in 2013.

Apology accepted

Still though, your ENTP having a crush on you explains his behavior perfectly. Much better than 'ENTP gone wrong' descriptions do.

1. ENTP agreed to be friends only.
2. ENTP knows I can only date XNTJs.
3. ENTP knows that if I could handle a P type I'd be with my ISTP best friend.
4. ENTP knows he doesn't meet the minimum height requirement.
5. ENTP himself, before he turned into jello, told me I need a "very strong, powerful man".
6. ENTP should know that constant texting & shadowing is annoying.
7. ENTP is very experienced and knows how girls work (how to be charming etc)
8. ENTP normally likes (multiple) girls as disposable pleasures, ENTP knows I'm not that kind of girl.
9. ENTP is normally detached from his feelings.
10. ENTP used to say he didn't believe in love! (ENTPs, lol)

I think I may have have broken this ENTP. He is most definitely malfunctioning. I guess I'll have a chat with him. Or slap him.