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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
As the sweetest and kindest ISTP on this board *cough* I want to talk a little bit about developing the softer side.

In my quest to not be a social asshole, I have learned a lot about the devil that is Ti-dom. When Ti becomes King and Ruler of the ISTP mindset, we often begin to start ordering everything based on the "logical" perspective. Think of social skills as puzzle pieces. We begin to fit the pieces together in a way that makes logical sense.

ISTP: If I say Please and Thank You, I will communicate that I appreciate efforts thus making the other person more willing to assist me.

^This is an example of how the ISTP learns social skills. Very Cause & Effect oriented.

The ISTP categories all areas of life into "Facts" and "Uncertainties". Facts are trusted and used to make logical conclusions. Uncertainties are either ignored or factored in only when they can be encapsulated in a factual context. Emotions are usually categorized as "Uncertainties". Because emotions are "Uncertain" we see them as changeable, unstable, not-factual. They cannot be used in factual analysis because they cannot be depending on. Therefore we have a tendency to ignore emotion (including, and perhaps especially, our own) when making a decision.

Our proclivity to use Facts and ignore Uncertainties is what makes us look like assholes half the time. It can cause us not to phrase things in polite, gentle ways because we are focused on communicating the Fact.

Here is a good example:
XNFX: When you said X, it made me feel hurt
ISTP: But that isn't what I meant, so you should get over it.

the ISTP saw what they had originally said and meant as a "fact" and what the XNFX heard as a "uncertainty". The XNFX misunderstood the point, therefore the XNFX did not operate with the Fact, therefore the XNFX needs to change their viewpoint.

How do we ISTP overcome this? (And we do need to overcome it if we want to get laid consistently, or make friends, or interact with family, or work peacefully on the job) (<--adjusted. Happy now, @Erbse?)

As you learn your partner's Emotions, begin to categorize them as "Facts".
An example might be, your partner misunderstood you. Their feelings are hurt. Rather than correcting their Uncertainty, accept their emotion as a Fact that must now be pointed out and included in the information.
ISTP: My Partner is hurt. This is a fact. It must now be addressed.
ISTP: Partner, I can see that you are hurt, and I am sorry you are hurting. I didn't mean to communicate that to you, I was trying to communicate XYZ.

Now you have dealt with the partner's emotions and corrected their viewpoint. And now the XNFX wants to have sex with you. This is clearly a win-win.

Hopefully I am making sense here. If any other ISTPs have something to add, please jump in.
 

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They're not facts. That would alter every other true fact I hold. The fact might be that they're hurt. But how they arrived at that fact was through a non-fact and therefore invalid.

What I have trouble with the most is creating a half and half. I keep emotions and logic in two very separate worlds and as a result, I either operate on emotions or fact. How do I create an equilibrium?
 

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+1,000,000 @Khys for attempting to make ISTP/XNFX sex more accesible.

I'm not touching this one with what passes for logic for me, I'll just fuck it up.

Carry on, Ti mages.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
They're not facts. That would alter every other true fact I hold. The fact might be that they're hurt. But how they arrived at that fact was through a non-fact and therefore invalid.

What I have trouble with the most is creating a half and half. I keep emotions and logic in two very separate worlds and as a result, I either operate on emotions or fact. How do I create an equilibrium?
I believe what you're getting stuck on is the process "Because their emotion wasn't caused by something factual, it isn't factual"

What you do is accept the EXISTENCE of emotions as factual. "The XNFX is upset. This is a fact. I will now point it out in my list of facts."

ISTP: Partner, I realize you are upset, and I dont want you to be hurt. (These are facts) I was trying to communicate XYZ (more facts). I'm sorry that you got ABC out of it. (this is also true, but you don't have to explain that you are only sorry because now you have to deal with the mess =P)

Commence sexy-time.
 

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@Khys

Okay and how do you tell a politely person that their emotions are invalid because they are wrong while accepting that they feel a certain way?
 
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I believe what you're getting stuck on is the process "Because their emotion wasn't caused by something factual, it isn't factual"

What you do is accept the EXISTENCE of emotions as factual. "The XNFX is upset. This is a fact. I will now point it out in my list of facts."

ISTP: Partner, I realize you are upset, and I dont want you to be hurt. (These are facts) I was trying to communicate XYZ (more facts). I'm sorry that you got ABC out of it. (this is also true, but you don't have to explain that you are only sorry because now you have to deal with the mess =P)

Commence sexy-time.
This works on everyone. Although the majority of people I've offended were NF's, I've also offended my share of NT's, SJ's, and SP's (although that last one is rare; even ESFP's and I see eye-to-eye pretty well).

As a predominantly Ludic lover, this isn't exactly relevant to me for sex. However, this works wonders for making working with other people less tedious.
 

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nononono @Erbse, if you help Khys solve this problem, you'll have to avoid less "hELp mE with my BOYfrIend, IM CONFUSED WAHH!" posts from NFs. Put your Ti to work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
BlueGiraffe:2049954 said:
@Khys

Okay and how do you tell a politely person that their emotions are invalid because they are wrong while accepting that they feel a certain way?
Their emotions are not invalid. They are the correct result of their incorrect interpretation. You have to acknowledge their valid conclusion and point out their invalid interpretation
 

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@Khys

Okay and how do you tell a politely person that their emotions are invalid because they are wrong while accepting that they feel a certain way?
Whoooa. The rule is with feelers at least: never tell them their feelings are invalid. That is a one way ticket to resentment.

The feelings themselves may be based on misinterpretations etc., and if so the feeler will figure this out at some point, but they will resent anyone telling them this - they need to find out for themselves.

If the feeler is fairly healthy and perceptive, they will do this quite quickly and may even express the fact that they over-reacted/jumped to conclusions.

But if you want this kind of admission, you need to let them figure it out. If you push them to it, and they actually realise (rather than just being angry at you for pointing it out), then once they've seen the light of day and calmed down, the last thing they will want to do is admit that you might have been right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Erbse:2049957 said:
How do we ISTP overcome this? (And we do need to overcome it if we want to get laid consistently)
Why didn't you start your post with this?

I could have ignored the rest then and moved on with my life!

Curses.
Substitute "getting laid" for "interacting with humans"
 
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Whoooa. The rule is with feelers at least: never tell them their feelings are invalid. That is a one way ticket to resentment.

The feelings themselves may be based on misinterpretations etc., and if so the feeler will figure this out at some point, but they will resent anyone telling them this - they need to find out for themselves.

If the feeler is fairly healthy and perceptive, they will do this quite quickly and may even express the fact that they over-reacted/jumped to conclusions.

But if you want this kind of admission, you need to let them figure it out. If you push them to it, and they actually realise (rather than just being angry at you for pointing it out), then once they've seen the light of day and calmed down, the last thing they will want to do is admit that you might have been right.
And why is that? Is it about control?

Their emotions are not invalid. They are the correct result of their incorrect interpretation. You have to acknowledge their valid conclusion and point out their invalid interpretation
Aye, aye.

@briesas
ROFL. What the hell was that?
 

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And why is that? Is it about control?
No, feelings are our expertise. Just like logical solutions and fact-based analysis are yours.

So to tell us that our feelings are wrong is like telling you your thoughts are wrong.

It's about perspective - feelings are physiological indicators/warnings of something - they are valid (unless you have some kind of chemical imbalance) in that they respond to the environment/situations as a form of information that tells you what is best to do next. Just like your rationale.

Since the feelings are only based on current information, new information may cause them to change (just like logic).

But the original feelings themselves were not invalid, because they only had a certain amount of information to go on.

In short, we aren't mind-readers. The feelings are based on current information and past experience - so chances are, they're probably quite accurate.

Saying they are invalid is counter-productive, regardless of how true it may seem to you. It's only going to cause resentment. Feelings need empathy. Or at least "I'm sorry you feel that way". Accept the feelings and you're much more likely to move past them.
 

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@BlueGiraffe I put my logic to work and ended up with a maudlin conclusion. Then I realized my logic sucked. Back to cheerleading!!!

GO ISTPs!

I suspect this endeavor will be frustrating unless you've (generic "you") experienced enough to accept me and understand a little when I say that water is taught by thirst, and that is a fact: same as I can let it roll off my back and smile when an ISTP says "you've reached a valid conclusion based on invalid reasoning" about what i might feel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@BlueGiraffe @r00bic0n

I think the biggest standout between Ti types and Fi/Fe types, is that Fi/Fe types will include emotions in their facts.
The fact that the words XYZ makes a person feel ABC is considered to be just as factual and relevant as the fact that XYZ was meant to communicate 123.

Even for a Ti type, if we have an incorrect interpretation, for example the XNFX says something that makes us feel ABC, and then the XNFX explains that they really meant 123, we immediately dispense with the ABC conclusion. The emotion is tossed out as an incorrect conclusion.

Where Inferior Fe gets me is in the battles with my husband where I will have trouble dispensing with the ABC conclusion, because I can't see how XYZ could possibly communicate 123. Most of the battles that way will really be like this:

ISTP: XYZ cannot mean 123, you are a nutjob
ENFJ: but xyz DID mean 123 to me, so you're invalidating me
ISTP: Correct, because that's a logical fallacy
ENFJ: But I said it and I meant 123, just because XYZ doesn't mean 123 to you, doesn't mean that it doesn't mean 123 to me
ISTP: Sure if you ignore logic and facts
ENFJ: you're an asshole


This is where I have to step back and say
ISTP: OK, by ENFJ's logic, XYZ = 123. I must set aside my logic XYZ = ABC, and accept that regardless of what XYZ really means, he was TRYING to say 123. I think he's a nutjob for saying it that way, but he has explained that his point was 123, so i will forgive the XYZ
 
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No, feelings are our expertise. Just like logical solutions and fact-based analysis are yours.

So to tell us that our feelings are wrong is like telling you your thoughts are wrong.

It's about perspective - feelings are physiological indicators/warnings of something - they are valid (unless you have some kind of chemical imbalance) in that they respond to the environment/situations as a form of information that tells you what is best to do next. Just like your rationale.

Since the feelings are only based on current information, new information may cause them to change (just like logic).

But the original feelings themselves were not invalid, because they only had a certain amount of information to go on.

In short, we aren't mind-readers. The feelings are based on current information and past experience - so chances are, they're probably quite accurate.

Saying they are invalid is counter-productive, regardless of how true it may seem to you. It's only going to cause resentment. Feelings need empathy. Or at least "I'm sorry you feel that way". Accept the feelings and you're much more likely to move past them.
Excellent response. I fully understood it. I printed it off and put it in my room so I can reference it later.

@Khys
That is eerily similar to some of my arguments.
I sometimes tell people what they meant to say. :rolleyes:
 

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@BlueGiraffe excellent. Does that mean we can commence with the sex?
Partner, I realize you wants the sexy time and I don't want you to be hurt but I was communicating that I understood r00bic0n's post. I'm sorry that you got the sexy time cue from it.
 
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