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I think this is a much needed discussion topic, especially among the type that's generally accepted to be among the least empathetic. Except, I disagree.

Personally, I feel that I'm fairly empathetic. When I'm talking to people, I can detect the subtlest shift in interest/emotions and I can usually see where people are coming from. It's so obvious when people are beginning to feel happy/upset/bored/irritated/faking it/caring/etc and I can feel it too. I can also feel how a person will feel in their reactions.

Except, I do have the capability to not care if it'd hinder the progress.

Does Ni+Se give us a form of rational empathy?
Is it more of an Enneagram 3 thing?
 

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Does Ni+Se give us a form of rational empathy?
I don't think Ni+Se are related to "rational empathy." I think it has to do with your inferior Fi. (By the way, don't be misled by the label "inferior;" inferior functions can still be very powerful, though rarely accessed and often left at lower priority.)

Though syntactic, I think there is a good difference between "empathy" and "sympathy."


Empathy

1. the psychological identification with or vicarious
experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object
or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself:


Sympathy

1. harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons
or on the part of one person with respect to another.

2. the harmony of feeling naturally existing between persons
of like tastes or opinion or of congenial dispositions.

3. the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another,
especially in sorrow or trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.​


As you can see, empathy carries a notion of vicarious or imagined experiences ("putting oneself to other's shoes"), and the center reference point is still "self:" what you would feel in the situation. This is very much in line with the descriptions of Fi; there is a clear reference point, which is internal feeling of oneself.

Sympathy, on the other hand, carries a notion of naturally synchronizing feelings where there is no divide between oneself and the group. There is no mention of vicarious or imagined intellectual scenario from which you can project yourself onto to see what you would feel; it's just communal sympathy, focusing mainly on social harmony and agreement. This is very much like the description of Fe.


- Additional Topic:

 

So, naturally, we can user these criteria to simply test the priorities of different functions:

- Do you value work progress over social niceties and harmony?
If yes, then Te is on above, and Fe is down in the shadows, overridden.

- Do you have definitive sense of self and sometimes have complex personal emotions, rather than constantly molding into other people emotions and resonate together?
If yes, then Fi is on above, and Fe is below, in the shadows.

- Do you value progress over your mood or emotion?
If yes, then Te is on top of Fi.

- You like to move around and experience the bodily power rather than sit down and introspecting and analyzing your own feelings in great details?
If yes, then Se is on top of Fi.

If all yes, obviously, you're an ENTJ.

 

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Why double quotes? Cognitive empathy, as they call it, is a great tool for understanding people. Some TeSe ENTJs actually seem quite simple at times, inflicting pointless arguments and attacks, when in reality they don't understand what the other person is trying to say. Like you say, you're not less rational for understanding others' feelings and even feeling them. You still got a conscious choice on how you're gonna act on them. Isn't showing little emotion in the right situation, sometimes the only rational choice.
 

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No I think its also the Fi...
And the Extroversion. We are very very very much influenced by crowds/people in energy levels because of the extroversion. Combining that with the least understood Feeling Fi... we can often end up realizing these things by just 'feeling' them, having no real reason how we know this person is happy/upset/bored etc (at least for me, I often don't have REAL concrete practical logical reasons why their energy has changed). We can't actually justify that, we just "feel it". For me its the shift in energy from them. I can feel myself then being influenced by their happy/upset/bored energy levels. Although of course I do have that ability to shut down those feelings and pursue what I want, I definitely feel that shift.
 

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I wouldn't agree on ENTJ's being cold bastards and not feeling empathy. As I can only talk from my personal experience, I've noticed that I can pick up on very subtle emotions in people and that people usually perceive me as highly empathetic person.
 

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I think this is a much needed discussion topic, especially among the type that's generally accepted to be among the least empathetic. Except, I disagree.

Personally, I feel that I'm fairly empathetic. When I'm talking to people, I can detect the subtlest shift in interest/emotions and I can usually see where people are coming from. It's so obvious when people are beginning to feel happy/upset/bored/irritated/faking it/caring/etc and I can feel it too. I can also feel how a person will feel in their reactions.

Except, I do have the capability to not care if it'd hinder the progress.

Does Ni+Se give us a form of rational empathy?
Is it more of an Enneagram 3 thing?
I do this too. I've always been told I'm a very good listener, and people often come to me for advice even if I don't know them very well. INs in particular seem to adopt me at ridiculously fast rates, which I think is because I'm one of the few people they think can understand them.

I've always been good at reading people. I'm certainly not the best at it, and I can definitely shut it down, but I feel the shifts. Sometimes I can even predict what they're going to feel or how they're going to react, depending on how good a grasp I've got of their identity. People are fairly simple, and body language, facial expressions, and other cues I can't really describe give me a really good understanding of what they're thinking. I try not to use it to manipulate people, but sometimes I'll phrase the truth in different ways depending on what I think their reaction is going to be.

I've always thought it's funny how people think NFs are the most empathetic. I know a lot of NFJs who come nowhere close to my understanding of people. I think INFPs are the best at sensing others' emotions and respecting them, but they can often become blinded by their own reactions to others, rather than observing others' reactions objectively. At that point, they (and ENFPs) get stuck in sympathy instead of continuing to gather all the relevant information, which makes it harder for them to get the full picture.
 
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I do not identify other's emotions in putting myself in a person's shooes.
I am more interested on how HE feels in that situation.
Not how I feel in that situation.

Retarded empathy be imposing themselves on others. People's differences suffer as a result.
I empathize with what he feels, not his situation. Resulting in a genuine consideration for his self.
 

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I also pick up on subtleties in emotions, body language, facial expressions, tonality etc and this is a tool to be used to connect with someone in order to progress in many different situations. From a management perspective this is a great ability to use and activate because not all individuals respond to ENTJ 'typical' ways of dealing with people. Not everyone responds well if they think you are focussed on results and don't really care about them. Logical solution - empower them, make them feel like you care and get results. This reflects the general consensus within this thread and actually supports how an ENTJ operates based on learning and finding solutions to problems. Activating inferior qualities in the right context is finding a solution to a problem.
 

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I have empathy, but I can also be downright insensitive - I know it. I guess the issue is that empathy doesn't really hold me back if there is a decision to be made, or a course of action to pursue, or if someone pisses me off... Mostly, however, while I definitely can empathise with someone when they're going through a rough time, I spend more time trying to rationally "fix" it, or I just get all uncomfortable. I'm terrible at being a shoulder to cry on, but I'm an excellent source of advice.

However, if I realise I hurt someone, I really do feel bad and usually apologise. I think people who lack empathy don't feel bad when they know they've hurt someone. However, it takes me a while to get to the point of apologising. Usually I'm first defensive and argumentative, because I'm naturally defending my corner like a good field marshal would ; ) I think the people closest to me find this most frustrating. I've been trying to change that... but sometimes I think I'm trying to change that just because then there's less time wasted arguing about something and I can get on with everything else. You know, sometimes retreating is the best way to advance? Sometimes saying sorry is more efficient... Man, I sound like a terrible person, but I'm just being honest. It's easier to apologise right off the bat if I can see the other's point of view, and I know I'm not loosing any strategic ground by doing so.

I swear I'm not so cold, though! I'm a good friend, and a good wife (I'd like to think). I'll fight someone else's corner if I care about them, or respect them, or I think they've earned or deserved it. I have an innate sense of justice, so I'll go guns blazing for someone else if I think they've been done wrong.

Long story short: I have empathy, but I am not ruled by empathy, and sometimes I do things that don't seem very empathetic to people around me... but if people knew how terribly I felt about it, they'd know I'm not so cold hearted.
 

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@Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar
We're not the lowest. We're the worst at showing.

ENTJs seem to be unsympathic or low on empathy, but only because of Ni and Fi. Both of these things are introverted, therefore feelings naturally come from the inside and connections between others and the outside also come naturally as an introverted function.

Meaning. ENTJs might want to be capable of being empathic, but it is very hard with all the "needed" functions being introverted.
 
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@Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar
We're not the lowest. We're the worst at showing.

ENTJs seem to be unsympathic or low on empathy, but only because of Ni and Fi. Both of these things are introverted, therefore feelings naturally come from the inside and connections between others and the outside also come naturally as an introverted function.

Meaning. ENTJs might want to be capable of being empathic, but it is very hard with all the "needed" functions being introverted.
Is Feeling related to empathy, though?
 

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Is Feeling related to empathy, though?
I'm guessing the feeling we refer to as Fi or Fe is logic applied to people as in some sort of subjective logical decision making or people orientated logical decision making.
While Ti or Te is a more abstract or objective decision making.


So Fi would work as people orientated logical decision making in regards to one's inner wishes?
I'm suspecting you would know this best as of being an INFP.
Imagine your primary function being the inferior. o_O
Also imagine Ni being secondary. That is a world apart.


Fi inferior seems to me to be like sensing that you'd like something and than just going in for the kill on it.
 

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I think when people say ENTJs have minimal empathy they are referring to empathy as caring about others, and showing that care for others, in which case I would have to agree. In general ENTJs favor what makes logical over what makes others feel good.

On the other hand empathy in the context of understanding and recognizing other's emotions is something I think most of us have, and I think its because of a combination of all of our functions, not just Fi.

The first step is because of Fi. While people generally think Fe is what detects emotions in others I believe they are generally mistaken. Fe might be able to tell what someone is feeling when they are showing signs of feeling it, such as a glum facial expression, but Fi can relate to deep emotions. Fi cannot do this alone; it needs help from Ni.

Ni can perceive things beyond what meets the eye. It's similar to a third kind of cone in the eye, able to see beyond what is in front of them and the core root of what is in front of them. When this is paired with Fi, it can infer what someone is feeling, but we still need to bring organization to this system; we need Te.

As most people know Te is an organization and efficiency oriented function, but what they don't think about is how it knows what to change to make more efficient. Te is constantly searching the environment around its user for logical consistency and efficiency, and inevitably finds patterns in these things, noticing the bigger picture and figuring out how it works. This is critical to recognizing emotions in others, because it notices behavior patterns and internally charts them, understanding what consequence to expect depending on the action. When this is paired with Fi it can predict some emotional reactions, and with Ni it can pinpoint those emotions even when others show no obvious signs of having them.

It's all tied together by Se, which can recognize tiny physical signs in others while observing them. This is mostly useful in face-to-face interactions.

So yes, I think we're fantastic at pinpointing the emotions of others, although we might disregard them in favor of what makes logical sense.
 

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I'm guessing the feeling we refer to as Fi or Fe is logic applied to people as in some sort of subjective logical decision making or people orientated logical decision making.
While Ti or Te is a more abstract or objective decision making.
The feeling functions aren't logical. They're rational decision makers that are premised on internal morality or external social ethics.

But moral and ethical violations appear to trigger greater emotional displays.
 

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I think when people say ENTJs have minimal empathy they are referring to empathy as caring about others, and showing that care for others, in which case I would have to agree. In general ENTJs favor what makes logical over what makes others feel good.

On the other hand empathy in the context of understanding and recognizing other's emotions is something I think most of us have, and I think its because of a combination of all of our functions, not just Fi.

The first step is because of Fi. While people generally think Fe is what detects emotions in others I believe they are generally mistaken. Fe might be able to tell what someone is feeling when they are showing signs of feeling it, such as a glum facial expression, but Fi can relate to deep emotions. Fi cannot do this alone; it needs help from Ni.

Ni can perceive things beyond what meets the eye. It's similar to a third kind of cone in the eye, able to see beyond what is in front of them and the core root of what is in front of them. When this is paired with Fi, it can infer what someone is feeling, but we still need to bring organization to this system; we need Te.

As most people know Te is an organization and efficiency oriented function, but what they don't think about is how it knows what to change to make more efficient. Te is constantly searching the environment around its user for logical consistency and efficiency, and inevitably finds patterns in these things, noticing the bigger picture and figuring out how it works. This is critical to recognizing emotions in others, because it notices behavior patterns and internally charts them, understanding what consequence to expect depending on the action. When this is paired with Fi it can predict some emotional reactions, and with Ni it can pinpoint those emotions even when others show no obvious signs of having them.

It's all tied together by Se, which can recognize tiny physical signs in others while observing them. This is mostly useful in face-to-face interactions.

So yes, I think we're fantastic at pinpointing the emotions of others, although we might disregard them in favor of what makes logical sense.
That's nice. However, that is not empathy.

Empathy is: feeling someone else's pain.

Do ENTJs do this? I'd say more often than not the answer is no. Many comments directly point out that they are able to identify feelings in others, even subtle shifts in mood and behavior. That makes one keenly observant, but not empathetic. Empathy means allowing the internal defenses down and inviting the uncomfortable and painful emotions others feel to flood over you mentally and physically. If this is what you do than good for you, your empathetic.

Sympathy is: "There, there it will be okay." Insert (Proffers rational solution)
 

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The feeling functions aren't logical. They're rational decision makers that are premised on internal morality or external social ethics.

But moral and ethical violations appear to trigger greater emotional displays.
haha!
Here I'll give you something which might be the foundation for empathic.

Yes. I understand your point.
feelings might not be logical, as logical is a word reserved for the Tx functions.
Instead I should use the word rational instead of logical, as you implied.


that right there is probably one of the core aspects for empathy.
I went into your perspective, returned to my own and adapted to YOU.
 
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