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Discussion Starter #1
Okay... both ENFJs and INFJs are capable of extensive manipulation. I will be gently manipulative in protecting others or doing "good". But my Ni is like a "Safety" that has to be passed before I act.

Do ENFJs have a similar safety... or do they just lead with their Fe? Because I've seen ENFJs manipulate for less than noble causes more than a few times to damage... or to get revenge.
 

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I'm so glad you posted this!
 

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I can manipulate often. Usually it's for benign shit like getting someone else to drive or pay if I don't feel like it. More rarely, I'll do it out of pure greed. I try to save those for the times I need to though. It's like the boy who cried wolf; one day no one will believe you any more.
 

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usually im too nice to manipulate people, and im typically not evil enough to figure out how to even if i wanted to.

occasionally i get really proud of myself when i figure out that i can pull the strings in a situation. but i almost never do it. i forget that i can exploit reading other people's intentions.

hmmm if i do choose to manipulate people, it is because im bored. really really bored.

not sure if the Fe being dominant in ENFJs would cause manipulation though.... theyve never bothered me in the past.
 

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Can't speak for the E's sadly, very little experience there. I'm slightly manipulative, just when I'm too lazy to do something and would prefer if it was done for me; it's like if you have to cook a meal, it will normally taste better if someone else cooks it for you?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I can manipulate often. Usually it's for benign shit like getting someone else to drive or pay if I don't feel like it. More rarely, I'll do it out of pure greed. I try to save those for the times I need to though. It's like the boy who cried wolf; one day no one will believe you any more.
Normally safeguards will pop up if it feels selfish.

I can generally only manipulate on behalf of someone else. To solve fights... or to keep people from hurting each other... or to stop someone who is attacking me (Note... stop. I will only do enough to stop them... I wont' damage their reputations). I always figured it was because my Ni forces me to consider my actions before I act... and check anything I might do against my moral standards.

usually im too nice to manipulate people, and im typically not evil enough to figure out how to even if i wanted to.

occasionally i get really proud of myself when i figure out that i can pull the strings in a situation. but i almost never do it. i forget that i can exploit reading other people's intentions.

hmmm if i do choose to manipulate people, it is because im bored. really really bored.

not sure if the Fe being dominant in ENFJs would cause manipulation though.... theyve never bothered me in the past.
I've seen some very nasty ENFJ manipulation. Two very bad examples I saw with ENFJ women when guys broke up with them, going behind the guy's backs waging all-out petty manipulation warfare to try to ruin their reputations, including a healthy does of lies.

(Rampant manipulation there without even a second thought). It seems as if they don't even stop to consider it before they chose to damagingly manipulate others. It's like without the Ni they just go for what feels right.
 

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I say no to manipulation!

Okay... both ENFJs and INFJs are capable of extensive manipulation. I will be gently manipulative in protecting others or doing "good". But my Ni is like a "Safety" that has to be passed before I act.

Do ENFJs have a similar safety... or do they just lead with their Fe? Because I've seen ENFJs manipulate for less than noble causes more than a few times to damage... or to get revenge.
Btmangan,

This is an interesting topic, is there a story behind this inquiry you have here about ENFJs? I have an ENFJ male friend, he is quite nice. Perhaps ENFJ ladies act different from the males, but I will discuss my example here. I find him and I share a 'pure heart' type of personality. I cannot see him, being manipulative, or I, unnecessarily, although we likely have the capacity to do so. I find if I am in a situation where I can, even if it would benefit me, I would stop myself from acting that way. With him, he is into Ethical behavior, and would not waste too much time, manipulating.

He demands the same level of honesty from others, that he himself upholds, however, when it comes to his passions being aroused, like maybe in a love situation, or to protect others, I could see him acting quite differently. Quite honestly, I would not want to see his bad side! He would likely intense as an opponent, he would be a fierce protector.

For me, I can't imagine I could do much harm. My sister is ISTJ, apparently they are the manipulation pros, she is seamless, I have to do a double-take to ensure I am not being a part of her latest manipulation scheme to get her way, and benefit herself! I have been disappointed a lot in dealing with her. But it is good learning. And in the end, I don't want to be like her, although she can push people around to get her way easily. The funniest thing happened to her (karma). Her ex turned out to be ISTJ, and she couldn't stand him, or his behavior, they fought constantly, because he was doing to her what she does to others! He 'one-up'ed' her, always. How crazy is that? No coincidences it seems, in learning here on earth.

For me, I have to watch being around manipulators, I have the flaw of assuming that everyone has 'pure heart' ways of thinking, and acting, like I do, this got me into a lot of trouble growing up. But now I am learning to get 'out of my head' and into reality more. Learning about deceit, and manipulation, is going to be essential for me. Not to behave in that way, but to avoid being taken advantage by such behavior.

I think that type of behavior is not nice. I know it is uncool to say, because I think manipulators feel very powerful and stuff, and can get lots of attention from others, but I still keep my position in this issue. I'd rather be around people, that want to be around me, not because i have manipulated situations to be a certain way.

Btmangan, what kind of situation are you experiencing with the ENFJ?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Btmangan, what kind of situation are you experiencing with the ENFJ?
My view is definitely influenced by my experience with ENFJs. One time where I saw this was when I had been intimate with an ENFJ and it didn't work out.

But both cases basically follow the same progression. An ENFJ had their feelings hurt, and then proceeded to manipulate others to try to hurt the "offender". In the case with the ENFJ, she was spreading clear lies about me. Lies that were simply divorced from reality. Thankfully I had a full MSN record and I proceeded to make the log public which vindicated me and made her look very very bad :tongue:
 

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I don't like the term "manipulation".

I have tried to "persuade" only when my J felt so sure that I was right about something that I thought people needed to be persuaded.

I do rely on my intuition too much though, but it has still proven to be quite dependable in most situations.
 

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Manipulate or pursuade - it's all the same thing; you're trying to change someone's mindset to meet your needs. I prefer to call it manipulation because it gives me an honest perspective of where my mind's at. It alternates chaotically between evil and good, but I'm trying to be Chaotic Neutral. :blushed:
 

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Thank you

My view is definitely influenced by my experience with ENFJs. One time where I saw this was when I had been intimate with an ENFJ and it didn't work out.

But both cases basically follow the same progression. An ENFJ had their feelings hurt, and then proceeded to manipulate others to try to hurt the "offender". In the case with the ENFJ, she was spreading clear lies about me. Lies that were simply divorced from reality. Thankfully I had a full MSN record and I proceeded to make the log public which vindicated me and made her look very very bad :tongue:
Btmangan,

Thank you for your reply. I wasn't being nosy, or anything like that. I usually ask to see if there is something else on the mind of the Thread starter to get an idea of where to go when responding. Also to see if I can further learn something about the topic. I'm sorry this happened to you!

Sometimes, people cannot accept the outcome of a situation. That was pretty straightforward what you have done, that is not nice, to spread rumors about a person, because a person feels slighted. I hope all is well with you, and your room-mate too :)

Speaking of E types, a young cancerian ENTP has a crush on me! He always looks upon me with glazed eyes, what to do! I wrote about this in nikki's Thread ENTP/INFJ! If you have a moment, swing by. Good topics as always, you have, btw.
 

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Manipulate or pursuade - it's all the same thing; you're trying to change someone's mindset to meet your needs. I prefer to call it manipulation because it gives me an honest perspective of where my mind's at. It alternates chaotically between evil and good, but I'm trying to be Chaotic Neutral. :blushed:
Yeah, but "manipulation" just sounds...I don't know.

It has more of a negative connotation, I think.

You don't hear people say,

"That pleasant, nice fellow is really good at manipulating people."
 

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I see life like a Role-Playing Game and choose choices to my advantage.
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
1. Yes.
2. Not really.
3. You don't need the dress to look fat.
4. Hahaha women are so shallow!
5. ...
I manipulate my entire world this way.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yeah, but "manipulation" just sounds...I don't know.

It has more of a negative connotation, I think.

You don't hear people say,

"That pleasant, nice fellow is really good at manipulating people."
Connotations are overrated, in my opinion.

People manipulate for good all the time (IE, inspiration). It's about time they get recognized for it. :wink:
 

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Connotations are overrated, in my opinion.

People manipulate for good all the time (IE, inspiration). It's about time they get recognized for it. :wink:
Well, I guess I'm going to be manipulating people then. I'm sure they'll appreciate it.



Old woman: "Sonny boy, could you please manipulate me?"

Me: "Oh yes, mam. I would be delighted to."

Old woman: "You're such a sweety pie."
 

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I think curious had a bad experience with an ENFJ also. They have their inner voice too, which is Ni-Ti so same as ours. They mostly lead with their Fe but as I've read the extraverted functions are really kind of like slaves of introverted ones. If you think about it the basis of our interaction with the world is our inner model of this world and those internal judgements we had made about it. Hence the foundation that the extraverted function are working off has really been set by the subjective and very personal introverted functions which for xNFJs are same.

I personally haven't run into one, but here is what has been posted on ENFJ forums about unhealthy ENFJs:
"HIGHLY manipulative (knows how to turn people against others), engages in a lot of social games (uses charisma and charm to get what they want, ruthlessly ruin other people's reputations), messes w/ the energy of the room to make it unpleasant for everyone, close-minded/judgmental, IRRATIONAL (doesn't have a good sense of reality), takes offense to EVERYTHING, has a major martyr complex, has explosive emotional outbursts. Here's food for thought."

And a 15 page thread on ENFJs and subject of manipulation: personalitycafe.com/enfj-forum-givers/1524-enfjs-manipulation.html
 

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I know a lot of ENFJs, both healthy and unhealthy, and they are definitely capable of extensive manipulation. Obviously, the more more emotionally healthy they are, the less inclined they are to use their abilities for manipulation for ignoble reasons, but even the healthy ones fall into it occasionally. I find that with ENFJs, lying, or at least "embroidering the truth", is one of their less admirable qualities. Don't get me wrong - some of these people are my best friends - but they definitely have a tendency to be... melodramatic?? As in, if they see something happen that's in any way interesting, it will come naturally to them to recount it in a very dramatic manner, and sometimes they will add arms and legs to the story (as we'd say here :crazy: ) in a way that I think an introvert of any description would be less inclined to do.

I think they are generally a bit less introspective, for obvious reasons, than their introverted counterparts. I think sometimes they will act - often using their charisma and propensity for manipulation - without weighing their behaviour up against their values, BEFORE they act, quite so carefully as an INFJ would. They'll do it because it feels right at the time, and feel bad about it afterwards or when their mistake is pointed out to them - though then they will often be too stubborn to acknowledge it.

But like I say, depends on their emotional health too. Healthy ENFJs are much less manipulative than unhealthy ones. My housemate is an extremely unhealthy ENFJ and she is fucking EXHAUSTING. She manipulates, or tries to, CONSTANTLY. And without really considering it. She can be quite good at it, but she has the self-awareness of a piece of toast. We're both capable of similar levels of manipulation, but I'm far slower to use it, and I have the foresight to know that if you consistently manipulate the people closest to you, you'll end up very lonely, and that's precisely what I am currently seeing happen to her. It's actually quite sad.

My dad or my boyfriend, on the other hand, are relatively healthy ENFJs, and they'll rarely try to manipulate me or anyone else. If they do, they stop when I point it out to them or challenge them on it. So, it's all relative really.
 

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I think I occasionally can spot attempts of manipulation, but I tend to just ignore it. If someone tries to manipulate me, I can get pretty harsh and upfront (typical INFJ dark side; I will sense your soft spot and attack you when and where it will hurt the most). Most of the time though, I don't bother and rather try to communicate the message that if you don't want to fight on open ground, I won't listen to you or take part in your little plays.

There is a big difference, though, between private life and work life. In private life, some people need to be protected from themselves, and occasionally I try to smoothen tings just to avoid all the drama. Work life - that's entirely another matter - from my experience, you can never become too paranoid...
 

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I have a confession to make... So last night I manipulated the SNOT out of an ESFP... Very sad it happened this way too. The guy basically completely overstepped all the boundaries the last time we were in company together, and I shut him out. Last night was the first time I saw him in 2 weeks. Well... I shut him out to his face and then when he made some smart comment about the fact that he'd better not sit next to me or I'd hit him I said that it was true I would. Then when he pressed me for information about "why" I'd do this, I kept stonewalling him. He tried everything! He tried getting offended. He tried appealing to my Fe telling me what a good day he'd had until this conflict saying he was becoming incredibly depressed. Finally he got mad enough about not getting a foot through the sympathy door with me so he got huffy and left.

Should I feel guilty about this? I shut him out to the point that he couldn't stay and there were five other people at the table. One of the other people says he didn't read the dude as being angry when he left, but a mixture of apprehensive, sad and guilty about what he did the last time we were in company. This mutual acquaintance of ours thinks I'm completely misreading this guy, but I have the longer association and all my instincts are telling me I did the right thing because this ESFP is dark, manipulative, controlling and even violent in temper. I know I maneuvered him into a position where he decided to leave, but all my "alarms" go off with this dude... Opinions?
 
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