[TeamPB]

Greetings, ENFJ friends.

I'm talking to you today to ask you a question about what I suspect to be the result of Ti inferior: a lack of "internal structure" when it comes to your logic. I used to think I was an ENTP because of some people here but I figured out (with the help of other people) it may not be the case because of a "bad habit" I just found out: I tend to not trust myself, my logic, if what I say is "right" and as a consequence, I'm prone to looking at others' answers to "validate" my thoughts, my logic, as if, for some reason, it was reassuring to see that other people shared your views, your logic. Same with looking at the number of likes a message receives: even though I know it's not enough to truly judge the quality of an argument (anyone can be "dumb" or have a bad logic and like the comments of other "dumb" people having a bad logic), it's as if such a thing was convincing and enough to give credit to a message...
(even though I don't know if I really bothered to "check" this when I was younger...also, another thing: I won't just blindly follow something people say because of the number of "likes", I do have my opinions, thanks god, I'm not a literal sheep...but when it comes to subjects "I don't know", it may be convincing to me, I have to admit)

So I'm asking you if you could relate to this. Because I saw some posts on the internet:

"Inferior Te is afraid of what others think. ISFPs and INFPs are self-conscious of what others think about them, and worry about their reputation and how others perceive them. Inferior Ti is afraid of what itself thinks. ENFJs and ESFJs experience self-doubt about their own intelligence and whether their thoughts and beliefs are 'right' when it comes to means and method of approaching a task or problem"

"So, They’re (ENFJs) constantly going to other people asking them, “Hey, how do you feel about my thought here. I had a thought. How do you feel about it?” Because, they want to find that external validation. ENFJs crave recognition and external validation more than anything. Why? Because they’re so afraid that they’re not actually smart enough so if they get that external validation from elsewhere, they have confidence in their thinking. Even though on the outside, it looks like they’re confident in their thinking when deep down they’re not actually confident about their thinking. "

"They (ENFJs) seek validation by asking what others feel about what the thoughts they present are" / "If I'm correct, inferior Ti user has difficulties thinking for himself, lack of introspection, so it relies on others to validate his thoughts?" => "That last paragraph almost sounds like Te since the trust seems to come form the external, so idk about that tbh"

Could you please share me your thoughts about that? Do you agree? Can you relate to this? Could this actually just be (very) low Ti? Or is it just something feelers (mostly IxFPs and ExFJs) have in common: "bad thinking skills" or at least insecurity when it comes to their (our?) thinking skills?

Thank you in advance

 

[SlayerFace]

I agree with your argument. It sounds like inferior Ti.

ExTJs have the same treatment toward Fi, believing that they should ask others what they should feel. I imagine that inferior Ti would make a person believe that they are not a valid authority on their own logic. I think IxFPs would believe that they are not valid authorities on tested logic such as expertise in their field or management of a system, whereas ExFJs would believe that they cannot prove anything to be true or false.

Edit: It's the difference between needing others to judge for you and deciding that others should judge for you.

 

[batteonde]

Greetings, ENFJ friends.

I'm talking to you today to ask you a question about what I suspect to be the result of Ti inferior: a lack of "internal structure" when it comes to your logic. I used to think I was an ENTP because of some people here but I figured out (with the help of other people) it may not be the case because of a "bad habit" I just found out: I tend to not trust myself, my logic, if what I say is "right" and as a consequence, I'm prone to looking at others' answers to "validate" my thoughts, my logic, as if, for some reason, it was reassuring to see that other people shared your views, your logic. Same with looking at the number of likes a message receives: even though I know it's not enough to truly judge the quality of an argument (anyone can be "dumb" or have a bad logic and like the comments of other "dumb" people having a bad logic), it's as if such a thing was convincing and enough to give credit to a message...
(even though I don't know if I really bothered to "check" this when I was younger...also, another thing: I won't just blindly follow something people say because of the number of "likes", I do have my opinions, thanks god, I'm not a literal sheep...but when it comes to subjects "I don't know", it may be convincing to me, I have to admit)

So I'm asking you if you could relate to this. Because I saw some posts on the internet:

"Inferior Te is afraid of what others think. ISFPs and INFPs are self-conscious of what others think about them, and worry about their reputation and how others perceive them. Inferior Ti is afraid of what itself thinks. ENFJs and ESFJs experience self-doubt about their own intelligence and whether their thoughts and beliefs are 'right' when it comes to means and method of approaching a task or problem"

"So, They’re (ENFJs) constantly going to other people asking them, “Hey, how do you feel about my thought here. I had a thought. How do you feel about it?” Because, they want to find that external validation. ENFJs crave recognition and external validation more than anything. Why? Because they’re so afraid that they’re not actually smart enough so if they get that external validation from elsewhere, they have confidence in their thinking. Even though on the outside, it looks like they’re confident in their thinking when deep down they’re not actually confident about their thinking. "

"They (ENFJs) seek validation by asking what others feel about what the thoughts they present are" / "If I'm correct, inferior Ti user has difficulties thinking for himself, lack of introspection, so it relies on others to validate his thoughts?" => "That last paragraph almost sounds like Te since the trust seems to come form the external, so idk about that tbh"

Could you please share me your thoughts about that? Do you agree? Can you relate to this? Could this actually just be (very) low Ti? Or is it just something feelers (mostly IxFPs and ExFJs) have in common: "bad thinking skills" or at least insecurity when it comes to their (our?) thinking skills?

Thank you in advance

tf, u a cult leader now?

 

[TeamPB]

tf, u a cult leader now?

d-dunno what you're talking about

 

[TeamPB]

I agree with your argument. It sounds like inferior Ti.

ExTJs have the same treatment toward Fi, believing that they should ask others what they should feel. I imagine that inferior Ti would make a person believe that they are not a valid authority on their own logic. I think IxFPs would believe that they are not valid authorities on tested logic such as expertise in their field or management of a system, whereas ExFJs would believe that they cannot prove anything to be true or false.

Edit: It's the difference between needing others to judge for you and deciding that others should judge for you.

"I agree with your argument. It sounds like inferior Ti"
So you agree that all the posts I quoted may just indicate inferior Ti? So what I consider to be a need for "external validation" (watching other posts, paying attention to the number of likes etc...) may actually be Ti...?

 

[SlayerFace]

So you agree that all the posts I quoted may just indicate inferior Ti? So what I consider to be a need for "external validation" (watching other posts, paying attention to the number of likes etc...) may actually be Ti...?

Well... looking for validation in of itself isn't Ti. It might be Fe or Te. What I meant by agreeing with your argument was that I think that feeling that your internal logic needs validation is inferior Ti. If you need external validation of logic, that's likely Te. If you need external validations of your feelings, that's Fe. By validation, I mean confirmation from cause/effect, not necessarily that you aren't confident.
Can you explain what you look for specifically when seeking external validation? Do you judge the posts by public opinion?

 

[TeamPB]

Well... looking for validation in of itself isn't Ti. It might be Fe or Te. What I meant by agreeing with your argument was that I think that feeling that your internal logic needs validation is inferior Ti. If you need external validation of logic, that's likely Te. If you need external validations of your feelings, that's Fe. By validation, I mean confirmation from cause/effect, not necessarily that you aren't confident.
Can you explain what you look for specifically when seeking external validation? Do you judge the posts by public opinion?

I suppose I'm just unconfident, unsure of myself. As if I was afraid of being wrong and knowing many people shared the same idea, opinion was "reassuring". Maybe I see it a little too much as some sort of quizz with "right" and "wrong" answers and others could help me in this quest...that's probably not the best thing to do.

Also: "I think that feeling that your internal logic needs validation is inferior Ti. If you need external validation of logic, that's likely Te" => ...what's the difference here? If you're inferior Ti, you're unsure about your internal logic, thinking...and if you're inferior Te, you're unsure the same way but in the end, you also "rely" on others' opinion, right?

 

[SlayerFace]

I suppose I'm just unconfident, unsure of myself. As if I was afraid of being wrong and knowing many people shared the same idea, opinion was "reassuring".

Afraid of being wrong in what way? Ineffective or inaccurate? Wrong as in your ideals are impossible or wrong in that your understanding is false?

 

[TeamPB]

Afraid of being wrong in what way? Ineffective or inaccurate? Wrong as in your ideals are impossible or wrong in that your understanding is false?

I realize it's pretty hard to talk about that. As if...I wasn't totally sure myself.
All I can say is that yes, sometimes, I will just look at others' opinion to see what they think, if they think like me (the "validation" I was talking about). So there's either those "check their opinion" moment...or those "fuck it, I'll just criticize it, post my answer or not if I'm unsure and do something else immediately afterwards".

I think deep down I'm afraid of appearing stupid to others, but if I don't have the intention to post something, it can't be that, it has to be something else. Maybe just...Te relying on others' opinion, yeah.

 

[SlayerFace]

I realize it's pretty hard to talk about that. As if...I wasn't totally sure myself.
All I can say is that yes, sometimes, I will just look at others' opinion to see what they think, if they think like me (the "validation" I was talking about). So there's either those "check their opinion" moment...or those "fuck it, I'll just criticize it, post my answer or not if I'm unsure and do something else immediately afterwards".

I think deep down I'm afraid of appearing stupid to others, but if I don't have the intention to post something, it can't be that, it has to be something else. Maybe just...Te relying on others' opinion, yeah.

I think it's Ti. You seem to relate to people with your same understanding. You seem to care about your logic as part of your identity and your understanding. Te is a means to accomplish Fi and does not relate as personally. It also seems that you want to go in-depth into your thoughts, but are not confident in them or are too exhausted by them.

 

[TeamPB]

I think it's Ti. You seem to relate to people with your same understanding. You seem to care about your logic as part of your identity and your understanding. Te is a means to accomplish Fi and does not relate as personally. It also seems that you want to go in-depth into your thoughts, but are not confident in them or are too exhausted by them.

"You seem to relate to people with your same understanding"
?
"You seem to care about your logic as part of your identity and your understanding"
I do...? How come?
"Te is a means to accomplish Fi and does not relate as personally"
Sorry with all the questions, but could you go in-depth?

"It also seems that you want to go in-depth into your thoughts"
Yeah, I don't think I hate to think (heh). It's interesting to ponder, let the thoughts invade you (I suppose that's why I'm a Ne dom/aux after all). I think I can be pretty good at criticizing people, their ideas, see why they're saying some stupid shit or why they're hypocrites...

...I'll tell you what, I think me writing this comment may be the truth I have a fucked up Ti...or ADHD. Or both. I don't think I had a "clear, internal, mental plan" of what I wanted to say. I wrote something but I kept changing things and things...at first, I wanted to say something among the lines of "communists value life? that's good. Capitalists value money, wealth, prosperity? that's 'worse' but hey, it's in their interest, they're not 'chaotic evil' for the sake of it, so that's okay, to be an hypocrite is part of our human nature, to want the best for us and our family or group in general is only part of our human nature as well, even though it's probably just our...'living being side' " but then I wondered: wait...is this rambling still relevant, as far as hypocrisy is concerned? and I realized that...yeah, not really: we're not talking about a guy who kills dogs for fun who accuses a guy of killing cats just for fun. Even if the definition of hypocrisy ("accusing people of doing what you do yourself") here works, I think things are slightly more complex than that...for example, you don't accuse a cop of being an hypocrite because he ends up killing a guy. Under certain circumstances (self-defense, stopping terrorists, etc...), it's acceptable because the rules tolerate the use of violence against violent people. So the goal here is to determine if commies (who cheer when royalists or capitalists are slaughtered but whine when their buddies from La Commune or the Spartakists got slaughtered) are a bunch of noisy hypocrite fucks or not. If we're strictly sticking to the definition of the thing...yeah, they're a bunch of hypocrites: they laugh at massacres when they're the ones behind it but are shocked and tell you how bad it is ("objectively" => "oh wow, how dare they, this is inhumane") when they're the targets of massacres. But at the same time, it's like accusing a hippie of being an hypocrite because he defends himself when someone attacks him. If someone is peaceful (a person, a community, a people, a country, whatever) but you attack them and they fight back...it's just normal for them to do that. No matter what their beliefs are. I would be impressed if I saw someone who was so in touch with their non-violent beliefs they would rather let others kill them than fight back (sup xxFPs)...but at the same time, I highly doubt anyone would do that. I don't think it's enough to label non-violent people who respond violently to violence as "hypocrites". So I think I will change my opinion and adopt the latter: it's not hypocrisy to brag about/do killings yet hate it when your friends are getting murdered...as long as you didn't start it all and as long as outside of this fight between your side and theirs, you never attacked another group.

As you can see...I'm pretty fucking ineffective with my reasonings. I don't really know what to think and I have some trouble being sure of myself or even knowing what direction my messages will take. Could that be...bad Ti? Not even in the stack? At the same time, I'm willing to redefine my concepts, my own logic, which is a pretty Ti thing to do, I guess...

 

[DOGSOUP]

I originally typed myself as Fe-Ti because this is how I operate: look for others to see if our values align, try to change their mind if they don't, find common ground. But I also have a lot of what I think are Ti thoughts, you know, attempts to analyse the world in terms of rules, more systematic understanding. I seek that out from others too. Ask them to explain things to me. Figure things out through arguments. I want to find something that is consistent, I suppose.

If a strong Ti type validates my thoughts it is like a drug to me. It is less so about seeking affirmation in the feeling sense, because my feeling function is strong enough to determine the need for that on its own. Group approval is nice but I can do without it if I feel like I am right (aligning myself with another group's values does the trick but also inf Ti helps but typically in a negative way), and also because I can often pass that judgement myself; I know what is acceptable in each group or can even set that tone myself. So if I want a validating atmosphere I will start building one. But that does not mean I will be validated in the Ti sense unless a respectable thinker says so. Lol.

 

[TeamPB]

I originally typed myself as Fe-Ti because this is how I operate: look for others to see if our values align, try to change their mind if they don't, find common ground. But I also have a lot of what I think are Ti thoughts, you know, attempts to analyse the world in terms of rules, more systematic understanding. I seek that out from others too. Ask them to explain things to me. Figure things out through arguments. I want to find something that is consistent, I suppose.

If a strong Ti type validates my thoughts it is like a drug to me. It is less so about seeking affirmation in the feeling sense, because my feeling function is strong enough to determine the need for that on its own. Group approval is nice but I can do without it if I feel like I am right (aligning myself with another group's values does the trick but also inf Ti helps but typically in a negative way), and also because I can often pass that judgement myself; I know what is acceptable in each group or can even set that tone myself. So if I want a validating atmosphere I will start building one. But that does not mean I will be validated in the Ti sense unless a respectable thinker says so. Lol.

"I know what is acceptable in each group or can even set that tone myself"
I've always wondered if it was a Fe thing: determining the "values" of a group: I'm with christians so I shouldn't talk about this, I'm with muslims, I should think about this, I'm with some SJWs, unless I really want to piss them off, I shouldn't say this, I'm with a bunch of racists, so it's safe to say this, etc...
...okay I have to admit, I use this in the most basic way: "racist/homophobic jokes are largely disapproved so I will not say anything inappropriate out of fear of being rejected and hated by others, but if for some reason, I'm with some right-wing people, I'll intuitively know it will be easier to joke about this or even say the most 'outrageous' things that cross my mind" (but when it comes to muslims, the only similar interaction I had was when I asked a muslim girl "you didn't order a beer...? oh, right, you muslims don't drink"...similarly, I think it would be pretty awkward to suggest to a muslim to work for a bar or whatever)

btw, do you ever have those... "non-independent thinking moments" where you start seeing a possibility but then you still read 1 or 2 people's answers to "validate it", see if that's the "real problem" (like I said during the whole thread)?

 

[DOGSOUP]

btw, do you ever have those... "non-independent thinking moments" where you start seeing a possibility but then you still read 1 or 2 people's answers to "validate it", see if that's the "real problem" (like I said during the whole thread)?

Yeah I think so, so I would read theory and seek out people who are knowledgeable and help narrow down possibilities. But this is kinda tricky since I look for someone who is consistently capable of providing Ti. If I start picking up on inconsistencies, I start losing respect very fast. "Oh this person did not have all the answers I thought they had" type of thing.

 

[TeamPB]

Yeah I think so, so I would read theory and seek out people who are knowledgeable and help narrow down possibilities. But this is kinda tricky since I look for someone who is consistently capable of providing Ti. If I start picking up on inconsistencies, I start losing respect very fast. "Oh this person did not have all the answers I thought they had" type of thing.

I'm not sure I search for the opinion of certain people in particular. I just wonder "...so that's xxx?" and I watch others' opinion: "...yeah, looks like it"
Could that still be Ti?

I don't know if I'd lose respect for someone who couldn't answer my questions. All I can say is that I can be pretty impatient and when someone doesn't get what I'm talking about, it can be rather frustrating so I just walk away. Happened a few weeks ago when I talked to my parents but they couldn't get my point and see why what they said was totally irrelevant so I just walked away.

 

[DOGSOUP]

I'm not sure I search for the opinion of certain people in particular. I just wonder "...so that's xxx?" and I watch others' opinion: "...yeah, looks like it"
Could that still be Ti?

Based on everything else you said I think this is Ti. Because this still seems like you are testing out your own understanding of something, rather than to see if others confirm your assesments of facts. There is that bit of distinction, do you abstract from the facts or do you use them. I would almost compare it to: studying to incorporate something into your worldview v. studying to get a degree and a career.

I don't know if I'd lose respect for someone who couldn't answer my questions.

Ah it is not that exactly it is more like I view someone as a wise person and then it turns out they are not; even moreso if the person masks themselves as a peak logic, it irritates me.

All I can say is that I can be pretty impatient and when someone doesn't get what I'm talking about, it can be rather frustrating so I just walk away. Happened a few weeks ago when I talked to my parents but they couldn't get my point and see why what they said was totally irrelevant so I just walked away.

I take things like this sorta personally. Especially if I am trying to get across an idea that I have to very meticulously breach (in a debate-like situation). And if it does not go through I get frustrated with both my inability to explain it & the inability of the other person to meet me half-way: "Why cant you see what I am getting at, why can't you piece it together from what I have given and undertand".

 

[TeamPB]

Based on everything else you said I think this is Ti. Because this still seems like you are testing out your own understanding of something, rather than to see if others confirm your assesments of facts. There is that bit of distinction, do you abstract from the facts or do you use them. I would almost compare it to: studying to incorporate something into your worldview v. studying to get a degree and a career.


Ah it is not that exactly it is more like I view someone as a wise person and then it turns out they are not; even moreso if the person masks themselves as a peak logic, it irritates me.

I take things like this sorta personally. Especially if I am trying to get across an idea that I have to very meticulously breach (in a debate-like situation). And if it does not go through I get frustrated with both my inability to explain it & the inability of the other person to meet me half-way: "Why cant you see what I am getting at, why can't you piece it together from what I have given and undertand".

"rather than to see if others confirm your assesments of facts"
I think that's what I do, tho. Others...confirm what I suspect to be the truth. I don't think it's incompatible with what you said before about you know, my own understanding of something. You can have your own understanding of things but still be unsure and "check" what others think of it.

(and what do you mean, based on everything I said?)

"I take things like this sorta personally. Especially if I am trying to get across an idea that I have to very meticulously breach (in a debate-like situation). And if it does not go through I get frustrated with both my inability to explain it & the inability of the other person to meet me half-way: "Why cant you see what I am getting at, why can't you piece it together from what I have given and undertand"
Yeah, this can be difficult. I think it's just easier to have an idea in mind than it is to just "explain" it. And it works with ideas, thoughts, reasons (Ti) and with feelings (Fi). You end up feeling/thinking of something but even though it's rather clear in your mind, it's harder to externalize it, be clear, concise...I think that's a problem with Ti users (and since I talked about Fi users, I assume it's just as hard for them to truly talk about their feelings because they just feel and it's easier to feel than to exactly describe a feeling). But IIRC, when I talked about my parents...it was because I asked them a question and they couldn't answer. Then, for some reason, they started talking about my sister, me, my life, my future...their whole speech was irrelevant when it came to my questioning so I "ran away" (their term, not mine).

 

[DOGSOUP]

"rather than to see if others confirm your assesments of facts"
I think that's what I do, tho. Others...confirm what I suspect to be the truth. I don't think it's incompatible with what you said before about you know, my own understanding of something. You can have your own understanding of things but still be unsure and "check" what others think of it.

But there is a difference between knowing the facts, using them, & interpreting them. When you build understanding you are already interpreting them in your inner framework.

So are you asking people whether what you say makes sense and "checks out" logically, or are you testing to see if they think you are completely detached from reality?

(and what do you mean, based on everything I said?)

That your constant questioning comes across very Ti seeking

 

[SlayerFace]

Sorry for not replying earlier, I was busy.

"rather than to see if others confirm your assesments of facts"
I think that's what I do, tho. Others...confirm what I suspect to be the truth. I don't think it's incompatible with what you said before about you know, my own understanding of something. You can have your own understanding of things but still be unsure and "check" what others think of it.

I think the difference is that Te users, especially with lower Te, view truth more dynamically. They want to find what is effectively the truth so that they can move on, whereas Ti users will feel like they failed if they cannot understand something. Te is not necessarily about asking people their thoughts as much as it is getting enough arguments to effectively understand something. Ti users will at least want to take their time, even if sometimes they really shouldn't.

Edit: Something else to keep in mind is that the lower functions, especially the inferior, is desired to be provided an outside source, as the user is not strong enough in it to supply it themselves consistently.

Edit2: Similar validation seeking can be seen in Fi. When an Fi user has a feeling, they want it to be validated by other people personally, as that confirms that they are accepted by the Te external world (usually based on whether it is efficient enough). Ti users will do the same to see that they are not shamed by the Fe external world (usually for being too blunt or insensitive).

 

[TeamPB]

But there is a difference between knowing the facts, using them, & interpreting them. When you build understanding you are already interpreting them in your inner framework.

So are you asking people whether what you say makes sense and "checks out" logically, or are you testing to see if they think you are completely detached from reality?


That your constant questioning comes across very Ti seeking

"So are you asking people whether what you say makes sense and "checks out" logically, or are you testing to see if they think you are completely detached from reality?"
I think my answer will be disappointing but...I guess it has more to do with the first thing you said (even if I don't directly ask people, I just "check their opinion" to see if I'm not the only one to believe something and...when I'm indecisive, unsure, I think it can help me to check that, yes, that's why I tend to consider Te a lot...unless I have a bad understanding of mbti, but I've been learning about this fucking theory for years now!)

"That your constant questioning comes across very Ti seeking "
err...it does? my constant questioning? you have some quotes to share...?