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Can you relate to those messages?

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  • ...it's more complex than a "yes" or a "no", you know, here, let me describe it in the comments...

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Discussion Starter #21
Sorry for not replying earlier, I was busy.



I think the difference is that Te users, especially with lower Te, view truth more dynamically. They want to find what is effectively the truth so that they can move on, whereas Ti users will feel like they failed if they cannot understand something. Te is not necessarily about asking people their thoughts as much as it is getting enough arguments to effectively understand something. Ti users will at least want to take their time, even if sometimes they really shouldn't.

Edit: Something else to keep in mind is that the lower functions, especially the inferior, is desired to be provided an outside source, as the user is not strong enough in it to supply it themselves consistently.

Edit2: Similar validation seeking can be seen in Fi. When an Fi user has a feeling, they want it to be validated by other people personally, as that confirms that they are accepted by the Te external world (usually based on whether it is efficient enough). Ti users will do the same to see that they are not shamed by the Fe external world (usually for being too blunt or insensitive).
"They want to find what is effectively the truth so that they can move on"
When it's something I'm not interested in (hey, maths!) or when it really fucks up my brain, yes, "just finding the answer" is more than okay. I can be a little persistent in finding "the truth" (and yeah, myself), so I can ponder, ponder, ponder...but I sure wonder if this is not something "new" for me, as if I was forcing myself to adopt a Ti behavior because...I have a boner for ENTP since this one time someone said I may be one? Since I'm "slow", it has ruined my life, sometimes (or to be more accurate, it wasted my time: try all the potential solutions like a retard/think more internally/write it and see if it becomes more clear to me...btw could that be Te to need an "external" support to understand something?) and it would take me hours before finding an answer or giving up and moving on. heh, I remember when my sister told me something and I thought about it for maybe one hour. Step one: "does that make sense...? okay, TeamPB, try to visualize it...nope, I don't get it", step two => I grow a pair and ask: "...wait, what, you're saying X does that? but...that doesn't make sense, why...?"

But overall, I'd rather move on.

Edit: Something else to keep in mind is that the lower functions, especially the inferior, is desired to be provided an outside source, as the user is not strong enough in it to supply it themselves consistently.
...so if I'm insecure/unsure about my thinking skills, it could either be inferior Te (which would make sense since...well, EXTERNAL SOURCES for THINKING...) or inferior Ti (it's still their inferior function, even if yeah, the whole "external sources" thing doesn't really work)? Got it. But considering I may be an ENxP, it may just be inferior Si...hell, how would a "need for outside sources" involving Si even manifest itself? Asking others for "good" methods? "true, proven methods"? being afraid you haven't learned a thing from your past experiences, being reassured when such reminders can be provided by others?

"Similar validation seeking can be seen in Fi. When an Fi user has a feeling, they want it to be validated by other people personally"
Do you have an example? Does that mean they want to feel """normal""" when it comes to their feelings? "am I normal for feeling this"? I don't think it applies to me. Feelings...just come naturally, let's say. I may have a certain feeling about them (even if I'm not sure being amused by something is a feeling, you know, those "HAHAHAHAHA...wait, why do I find it funny, it's terrible?" moments)

Do you think my rant earlier in the thread sounded Ti-sh or do you think it was just a bunch of Ne ideas having an orgy...?
 

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Edit2: Similar validation seeking can be seen in Fi. When an Fi user has a feeling, they want it to be validated by other people personally, as that confirms that they are accepted by the Te external world (usually based on whether it is efficient enough).
How could feeling be efficient though? I guess I am too opposed to Te to even care about that lol.

Agree with what you said about Te being dynamic. Ti seems to seek more fixed truths indeed.

I think my answer will be disappointing but...I guess it has more to do with the first thing you said (even if I don't directly ask people, I just "check their opinion" to see if I'm not the only one to believe something and...when I'm indecisive, unsure, I think it can help me to check that, yes, that's why I tend to consider Te a lot...unless I have a bad understanding of mbti, but I've been learning about this fucking theory for years now!)
the first thing? That was the Ti thing imo. This seems FeTi to me. This whole exploration based on theoretical concepts, seeking externally if they your beliefs are shared by likeminded people. Fi shouldn't theoretically care too much about sharing values and I think Te would not see the need to confirm something which should be obvious.

err...it does? my constant questioning? you have some quotes to share...?
I am quoting you right here!
 

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How could feeling be efficient though? I guess I am too opposed to Te to even care about that lol.
It's efficient in that it doesn't try to justify feelings or find the absolutely right thing to do, it tries to fix the problem as effectively as possible.

Edit: NVM I thought you were wondering how Fe could be efficient. Fi can be efficient by not being so ideal that it's impossible to put into practice.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
How could feeling be efficient though? I guess I am too opposed to Te to even care about that lol.

Agree with what you said about Te being dynamic. Ti seems to seek more fixed truths indeed.


the first thing? That was the Ti thing imo. This seems FeTi to me. This whole exploration based on theoretical concepts, seeking externally if they your beliefs are shared by likeminded people. Fi shouldn't theoretically care too much about sharing values and I think Te would not see the need to confirm something which should be obvious.


I am quoting you right here!
"How could feeling be efficient though?"
Feelings can be an obstacle to your decisions. I think that's how you could see it: the "action" of feeling is an obstacle to efficiency, logic...
Would say an INFP care about it, tho? kinda doubt it.

Nevermind, I misunderstood your post. Yeah, a feeling can't be efficient or inefficient in itself...but having those can make things efficient or not for you, depending on your goal!
 

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But considering I may be an ENxP, it may just be inferior Si...hell, how would a "need for outside sources" involving Si even manifest itself?
If you are an ENxP, I think you are an ENFP, not an ENTP. I don't think an ENTP would jump between so many logical points without landing on a few particular points eventually. If not, do you think it's possible that you could be an ESFJ with tertiary Ne? The tertiary functions can be deceptively strong. I'd also like to hear why you think you use Ne-Si as opposed to Se-Ni.

I do not think that Si has anything to do with outside sources, as it doesn't appeal to authority. The only thing Si would have to do with thinking would be the organization of the details, not how the arguments are justified.

Do you have an example? Does that mean they want to feel """normal""" when it comes to their feelings? "am I normal for feeling this"? I don't think it applies to me. Feelings...just come naturally, let's say. I may have a certain feeling about them (even if I'm not sure being amused by something is a feeling, you know, those "HAHAHAHAHA...wait, why do I find it funny, it's terrible?" moments)
For example, if an Fi user feels that there should be 8-hour workdays as a provided right, and they have healthy Te, they will want to check whether they are arguing for anything that can be done and whether their values are justifiable with the given resources and capabilities of the system. I do not think it means that they want to feel "normal" with their feelings. I think it means that they want to know that their feelings aren't useless when taken into the real world. An Fi user may still want their feelings to appear "normal" though if it means that they will lose something close to them if they don't, in the same way that a Ti user will eventually move on if one system is in the way of other systems that they value more.

Do you think my rant earlier in the thread sounded Ti-sh or do you think it was just a bunch of Ne ideas having an orgy...?
I think it sounded like it involved Ti arguments, but they were very disorganized, maybe because of your Ti having trouble narrowing down what your points infer.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
If you are an ENxP, I think you are an ENFP, not an ENTP. I don't think an ENTP would jump between so many logical points without landing on a few particular points eventually. If not, do you think it's possible that you could be an ESFJ with tertiary Ne? The tertiary functions can be deceptively strong. I'd also like to hear why you think you use Ne-Si as opposed to Se-Ni.

I do not think that Si has anything to do with outside sources, as it doesn't appeal to authority. The only thing Si would have to do with thinking would be the organization of the details, not how the arguments are justified.



For example, if an Fi user feels that there should be 8-hour workdays as a provided right, and they have healthy Te, they will want to check whether they are arguing for anything that can be done and whether their values are justifiable with the given resources and capabilities of the system. I do not think it means that they want to feel "normal" with their feelings. I think it means that they want to know that their feelings aren't useless when taken into the real world. An Fi user may still want their feelings to appear "normal" though if it means that they will lose something close to them if they don't, in the same way that a Ti user will eventually move on if one system is in the way of other systems that they value more.



I think it sounded like it involved Ti arguments, but they were very disorganized, maybe because of your Ti having trouble narrowing down what your points infer.
"I don't think an ENTP would jump between so many logical points without landing on a few particular points eventually"
An ENTP would be more decisive, reach a conclusion...? it's true I can be pretty indecisive when it comes to reasonings...for example this guy on Twitter who replied "oh yeah, it's smart to compare an unarmed girl (you know, that one pro-Trump women) who was shot dead without any warning to a junkie who wasn't even killed by the police (you know, that...well, George Floyd)" to someone who said the "pogchamp" guy was stupid for trying to emulate a movement similar to BLM because of the murder of this woman. I tried to...see if it was indeed comparable: maybe it was wrong to shoot her...but yeah, the guards were probably scared for their lives, and she was in the wrong to begin with for raiding the Capitole with her friends. Did she deserve it? I don't think so, even if what she did was stupid and shocking. Unless...she was a threat for the guards. Then there's this guy, George Floyd...he didn't deserve to die either but in this case, what's important is to determine if one was a major threat to other people. Was he a threat to others? If he's a junkie, maybe. Was he indeed killed by cops or because of drugs? Hell if I know, I didn't follow all the news about this "tragedy". An important thing to note: even if I'm not fond of them, communists """taught me""" an important lesson: even if violence is deplorable, it can be justified. This is why they justify violence: to fight muh evil capitalists and build a better world. So I could understand why ""leftists"" wouldn't care about her death: in their opinion, she was a threat to democracy, therefore it is """"justified"""". On the other hand, I'm not in pro-Trumps' mind, I can't tell if they're sincere, if they really care about democracy or if they only care about power (my "rational" side tells me the far-right is more likely to be "open" about their hatred for democracy while the far-left is more likely to "kill democracy" to only accept "democratic" movements...in other words, the left) but if you're willing to listen to their fears, arguments, "proofs for fraud", their reaction is justified too. So in the end, I think this is why people are more likely to defend him (a "civilian" with some bad guy background but still a civilian) and attack her ("BASH THE FAAAAAAAAAAAASH")...but as you can see, things are not that easy. Do people really think you can launch an actual Coup with a hundred people? Do people really forget that you never really know what people are up to and therefore, it is more than justified to act impulsively when you think there's gonna be blood (even if you're the one who's spilling blood instead)?
Anyway. I had those thoughts in a part of my brain but I still "checked" others' comments to see if I wasn't the only one to think like that, I suppose? Isn't that typically more of a Te reflex?

"If not, do you think it's possible that you could be an ESFJ with tertiary Ne? The tertiary functions can be deceptively strong"
I don't even know if I use Fe, so as a dominant function...
I mean I think I'm quite aware of my feelings, reactions to things (for some reason, I really have a hard time being around my father, probably because it feels like he's always judging me: "you're weird, hehe", and when I thought about something a Fe or at least a high Fe user would do, stay with him because others want me to be with them, be with the group, I have to admit, it makes me cringe and I don't think I'd do it) which seems to be a Fi thing, I suppose I can take things personally and be sensitive, like my mom suggested and I think I have "internal values", the kind of things that tell you "wait, that's wrong, I could never do that", even if you know a fuckton of people wouldn't mind doing that and would see you as an emotional weirdo if they knew about it...and even, from a more personal point of view, I'm perfectly aware it doesn't make sense, I SHOULD do it, either because it's not important, there's no need to worry about that, it's irrational, or because it's literally the RIGHT THING to do because the guy in front of you deserves it (for some reason, I could hardly see myself tattle).
Is there still a chance I'm just a pussy ENTP (a friend suggest I was an 'ENTP' as far as the mbti model is concerned, and an ENFp as far as socionics is concerned, which could explain those two parts of me...)? Could it be related to an enneagram type?

Also I don't really think I'm a high Si user, even if I don't know a lot about this function (except the whole "MEMORIES, TRADITIONS, PTSD LOLOLOL" shit).

Which is the perfect transition for the next (and last) part of my message:

"I'd also like to hear why you think you use Ne-Si as opposed to Se-Ni"
I have to admit I never really thought I was a Ne user. To be honest, I always thought I was some kind of SP...but I started talking with this chick who typed me as an ENTP (damnit, where is she? it's been one whole year, I wanna give her arguments that could potentially prove her wrong with her typing...) and she seemed to see a lot of Ne in me, same for other people in general. Maybe I don't know a lot about functions, only the most basic things: more interested in ideas than concrete facts (I think too much in terms of "what if, hey it could work", where more realistic people would tell me: "no, dumbfuck, it can't work because it never worked/people will never be able to do that because in general, they don't do that" (this sounds atrociously stupid to me: because 100% of immigrants don't totally 'convert' to the culture and identity of a country, of a people, "it can't happen"? what about those who integrated well? anyway...), attraction to possibilities (the "Ne is pretty much being on drugs" meme: seeing an idea...then another one...thinking of another idea to explore instead of being more focused, being more "organized" (for some reason, I can see Ni users be more likely to "not explore too much" and strictly focus on the subject...but who knows, maybe 1)I'm wrong and/or 2)the whole organization thing has more to do with Ti/Te). So pretty much...being a fucking brainstormer? Yeah, maybe those arguments are pretty weak but I guess that's all I have. Maybe it's the proof I shouldn't listen to others and simply read the functions more in depth...

I said it was the last part of my message but I said I was Si inferior, so fuck rules:

"I think it sounded like it involved Ti arguments, but they were very disorganized, maybe because of your Ti having trouble narrowing down what your points infer"
Ti arguments? And yeah, I guess it's all a little too disorganized...up there...
 

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I don't even know if I use Fe, so as a dominant function...
Dominant functions can almost be invisible sometimes because they seem so innate that anyone who doesn't use it seems strange to the user. For example, when I was a kid, I had no idea that people didn't always have logical reasons or analyses for their actions. I thought it was a minimum of human behavior to know why you would decide something for your own reasons. You could be using Fe all the time, but think that it's normal to focus on the feelings in a group situation. For example, if I wanted to, I could completely ignore the feelings in a situation and feel almost entirely normal, whereas a feeler might find that to be unnatural for them.

Anyway. I had those thoughts in a part of my brain but I still "checked" others' comments to see if I wasn't the only one to think like that, I suppose? Isn't that typically more of a Te reflex?
Those examples seem like Fe, as you're asking whether people have the same specific thoughts as you (Ti) and whether the actions were justified given the general situation (Fe).

stay with him because others want me to be with them, be with the group, I have to admit, it makes me cringe and I don't think I'd do it) which seems to be a Fi thing, I suppose I can take things personally and be sensitive, like my mom suggested and I think I have "internal values", the kind of things that tell you "wait, that's wrong, I could never do that", even if you know a fuckton of people wouldn't mind doing that and would see you as an emotional weirdo if they knew about it...and even, from a more personal point of view, I'm perfectly aware it doesn't make sense, I SHOULD do it, either because it's not important, there's no need to worry about that, it's irrational, or because it's literally the RIGHT THING to do because the guy in front of you deserves it (for some reason, I could hardly see myself tattle).
Fe doesn't just listen to what people feel and act on that. It listens to what people feel, decides what they should generally feel, and decides what is logically possible to achieve in the given situation. Also, Fe users can still pay attention to their own feelings, especially xxFJs, as they have Fi in the 5th and 6th slot, which is strong but unvalued. The moral code that you follow can also be Ti, as you may decide that there is a certain system that you will logically follow based on your feelings, rather than created by your feelings. The reason you might not wander from the system if you see the situation differ is because the system is dictated by yourself, so you would have to ignore yourself for a second to focus on the external situation.

Is there still a chance I'm just a pussy ENTP (a friend suggest I was an 'ENTP' as far as the mbti model is concerned, and an ENFp as far as socionics is concerned, which could explain those two parts of me...)? Could it be related to an enneagram type?
Public perception of the typing systems is kind of convoluted because people believe that they don't have the same origin. MBTI and Socionics, while a bit different, still use a similar cognitive function model and can be understood almost as a single system. If you were an ENTP and an ENFp, you would have to use both Fi-Te and Ti-Fe. If what your friend meant by the ENTP result was that you tested as an ENTP, or that you are an ENTP when not taking functions into account, that is possible, but is from a different definition of the systems. You can only have one possible function stack, as they are measuring the same thing in the different systems. It could also have been a misunderstanding on your friend's part that Socionics has different names for the types. Introverts have J/P swapped, and they might have confused that with swapping F/T in Socionics or something.

It probably does has something to do with Enneagram type, as the Enneagram is a different system than the cognitive functions and adds onto the definition of your personality. It is based on core fears/desires, so depending on what your motivations are in life, you will likely act differently, even if you have the same MBTI type. This doesn't mean that it will explain this particular behavior though, as there are other variables that affect behavior than just motivation and MBTI type.

Maybe I don't know a lot about functions, only the most basic things: more interested in ideas than concrete facts (I think too much in terms of "what if, hey it could work", where more realistic people would tell me: "no, dumbfuck, it can't work because it never worked/people will never be able to do that because in general, they don't do that" (this sounds atrociously stupid to me: because 100% of immigrants don't totally 'convert' to the culture and identity of a country, of a people, "it can't happen"? what about those who integrated well? anyway...), attraction to possibilities (the "Ne is pretty much being on drugs" meme: seeing an idea...then another one...thinking of another idea to explore instead of being more focused, being more "organized" (for some reason, I can see Ni users be more likely to "not explore too much" and strictly focus on the subject...but who knows
You don't necessarily have to be interested in facts more than ideas to be a sensor. It's more about whether you focus on them, not necessarily your interest. It can sometimes even be the opposite because it can be harder to understand the opposite side, which can make it more intriguing or useful to focus on than your natural preference. If you think that you find connections between an overarching layout of details, you probably have Ne-Si. If you think that you find an overarching pattern between disconnected details, you probably have Ni-Se.

or 2)the whole organization thing has more to do with Ti/Te). So pretty much...being a fucking brainstormer? Yeah, maybe those arguments are pretty weak but I guess that's all I have. Maybe it's the proof I shouldn't listen to others and simply read the functions more in depth...
I don't think the organization thing has to do with Ti/Te, except for what is being organized. I do think studying the functions in depth is helpful if you want to understand yourself and the theory more accurately, but it's also helpful to get other people's understandings to compare them to your own.

Ti arguments?
They were likely Ti arguments, as they were based on each other and used deductive reasoning, rather than inductive reasoning. High Te users can still use Ti and high Ti users can still use Te effectively though, so reasoning style only works to determine type if they don't switch from their prefered type of reasoning.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Dominant functions can almost be invisible sometimes because they seem so innate that anyone who doesn't use it seems strange to the user. For example, when I was a kid, I had no idea that people didn't always have logical reasons or analyses for their actions. I thought it was a minimum of human behavior to know why you would decide something for your own reasons. You could be using Fe all the time, but think that it's normal to focus on the feelings in a group situation. For example, if I wanted to, I could completely ignore the feelings in a situation and feel almost entirely normal, whereas a feeler might find that to be unnatural for them.



Those examples seem like Fe, as you're asking whether people have the same specific thoughts as you (Ti) and whether the actions were justified given the general situation (Fe).



Fe doesn't just listen to what people feel and act on that. It listens to what people feel, decides what they should generally feel, and decides what is logically possible to achieve in the given situation. Also, Fe users can still pay attention to their own feelings, especially xxFJs, as they have Fi in the 5th and 6th slot, which is strong but unvalued. The moral code that you follow can also be Ti, as you may decide that there is a certain system that you will logically follow based on your feelings, rather than created by your feelings. The reason you might not wander from the system if you see the situation differ is because the system is dictated by yourself, so you would have to ignore yourself for a second to focus on the external situation.



Public perception of the typing systems is kind of convoluted because people believe that they don't have the same origin. MBTI and Socionics, while a bit different, still use a similar cognitive function model and can be understood almost as a single system. If you were an ENTP and an ENFp, you would have to use both Fi-Te and Ti-Fe. If what your friend meant by the ENTP result was that you tested as an ENTP, or that you are an ENTP when not taking functions into account, that is possible, but is from a different definition of the systems. You can only have one possible function stack, as they are measuring the same thing in the different systems. It could also have been a misunderstanding on your friend's part that Socionics has different names for the types. Introverts have J/P swapped, and they might have confused that with swapping F/T in Socionics or something.

It probably does has something to do with Enneagram type, as the Enneagram is a different system than the cognitive functions and adds onto the definition of your personality. It is based on core fears/desires, so depending on what your motivations are in life, you will likely act differently, even if you have the same MBTI type. This doesn't mean that it will explain this particular behavior though, as there are other variables that affect behavior than just motivation and MBTI type.



You don't necessarily have to be interested in facts more than ideas to be a sensor. It's more about whether you focus on them, not necessarily your interest. It can sometimes even be the opposite because it can be harder to understand the opposite side, which can make it more intriguing or useful to focus on than your natural preference. If you think that you find connections between an overarching layout of details, you probably have Ne-Si. If you think that you find an overarching pattern between disconnected details, you probably have Ni-Se.



I don't think the organization thing has to do with Ti/Te, except for what is being organized. I do think studying the functions in depth is helpful if you want to understand yourself and the theory more accurately, but it's also helpful to get other people's understandings to compare them to your own.



They were likely Ti arguments, as they were based on each other and used deductive reasoning, rather than inductive reasoning. High Te users can still use Ti and high Ti users can still use Te effectively though, so reasoning style only works to determine type if they don't switch from their prefered type of reasoning.
heh, tbh I never thought (and still really do) I really cared about the group, its feelings, values...
I can be a pretty bitchy person and I can say (or at least type) things that will piss off other people when it could have been avoided (like that one time I wanted to learn about something so I asked others, then I asked other people who knew about mbti and lectured me: asking "incorrect" questions while being totally aware of it seems like something an IxTJ would do, because no Fe, no tact, no class) and I don't think I'm really a "people pleaser"...
...on the other hand, I don't want to offend other people, most of the time: to simply imagine people sad, what it must be...I take that into account and refrain. btw, a few months ago, I realized I had a weird way of having empathy for sad characters on screen: I'd try to "feel bad myself", but it felt forced, as if I really tried to "feel like them" instead of just feeling sad because...well, they're sad, the scene is sad. Could that be Fi, since Fe is probably more likely to just "read the room", even within a movie, I suppose, and "feel sad" or cry because of that without needing extra steps? (yeah, I described it in a weird way, and I don't even know if I always did that...tbh, I started "thinking" about all this shit when I started obsessing over mbti, I wasn't particularly """sane""", back then).

...btw, I do actually think I had certain "Fe" reactions (but after all, we probably all had that: Fe, Fi, Te, Si reactions at some poinf of our life...it's not in our stack but it's not "too far away"): not knowing what to do when I met my grandma, after the death of her brother: should I tell her I'm sorry for her loss, should I just give her a break so she doesn't think about it and feel bad? (some guy told me now knowing what to do in this kind of situations could be a sign of Fe), having my sister help me for homework, find out a friend of hers was killed, be pissed at her at first because she yelled at me, then feeling bad (probably, either that or I assumed it was the right thing to do here) and comforting her...and that one very memory: my history teacher telling me I better read that fucking book from a guy who survived the Holocaust...I did so but since I must have some ADD/ADHD shit, it took me a lot of time to read it or at least most of it, so I pretty much didn't sleep and when we had to go to one of his conference, I took a nap (I have an excuse: he was just telling us what we had to read, so there was next to nothing new). Turns out it was "disrespectful" and I think some stupid moralistic bitches behind me noticed it and started whining "woaaaah, you can't do that!". I know myself so I was probably embarrassed but also pissed at them. But then I realized they weren't the only one who noticed: classmates, even the teacher. They didn't scold me too bad, but still. I think I felt so bad about myself I apologized to the teacher (even if apologizing to him was probably a better idea...but then telling some guy you're supposed to respect and listen to more than others "yo, I slept during your speech, sorry bro, peace", well...). I kinda think that could be some Fe...or an apologetic Fi?

"The moral code that you follow can also be Ti"
bah, it seems to appear too spontaneously, as if there was some wall between what's right and wrong...I don't think it was always the case, tho. I don't think I always cared about that, that I had a lot of morals in the past.

"Those examples seem like Fe, as you're asking whether people have the same specific thoughts as you (Ti)"
What does that have to do with Ti, tho?

"The moral code that you follow can also be Ti, as you may decide that there is a certain system that you will logically follow based on your feelings, rather than created by your feelings"
The difference here being Fe-Ti can logically see why it's "good" to follow values, "what feels right" while Fi-Te would just go for it without second thought...? I'm probably closer to Fi in this case (of course we all have values that we can logically justify: "I don't want to kill because it's stupid to do that" as well as the good ol' "it's bad because it's bad, fuck off", obviously, but as far as I'm concerned, I guess it could just be justified by my feelings, yeah: "there's something that disturbs me with that, I wouldn't feel at peace if I did that", which is more Fi-like, I presume, even if, like I said, I agree it's more often than not totally irrational and I'd look like a clown if others knew about those thoughts).

That's my main argument for Fi as far as I'm concerned.

"If you were an ENTP and an ENFp, you would have to use both Fi-Te and Ti-Fe"
That's what I thought: "there's something fishy with it...", but I didn't write it. After all, since the two systems are different, maybe you can find similarities between Ti and Te or even other functions. It's true I don't know shit about socionics but that's a possibility.

"They were likely Ti arguments, as they were based on each other and used deductive reasoning, rather than inductive reasoning"
They were? I never really understood why people seem to think I think more in terms of deductive reasonings than in terms of inductive reasonings...I guess I should read more about the two.
 

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"Those examples seem like Fe, as you're asking whether people have the same specific thoughts as you (Ti)"
What does that have to do with Ti, tho?
Ti will want to go into technicalities in arguments, whereas Te will more often try to argue the conclusion while swapping multiple premises depending on how they are received. I think a Te user would look more for the general argument than whether they had the same explanation and thought process.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Ti will want to go into technicalities in arguments, whereas Te will more often try to argue the conclusion while swapping multiple premises depending on how they are received. I think a Te user would look more for the general argument than whether they had the same explanation and thought process.
I guess I may focus on the "well, technically..." when it comes to arguments. Even if I'm a pussy when it comes to confront other people, I really like to mentally demolish others' arguments and logic. Perhaps that's Ti...

Also, I don't wanna be rude, it's already polite enough of you to answer me but...are you going to answer the rest of my post?
 

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Also, I don't wanna be rude, it's already polite enough of you to answer me but...are you going to answer the rest of my post?
No Problem. I just didn't read it correctly the first time.

I'd try to "feel bad myself", but it felt forced, as if I really tried to "feel like them" instead of just feeling sad because...well, they're sad, the scene is sad. Could that be Fi, since Fe is probably more likely to just "read the room", even within a movie, I suppose, and "feel sad" or cry because of that without needing extra steps? (yeah, I described it in a weird way, and I don't even know if I always did that...tbh, I started "thinking" about all this shit when I started obsessing over mbti, I wasn't particularly """sane""", back then).
Empathy for fictional characters on screen isn't necessarily Fi or Fe. I can say that I have experienced the same thing, even with inferior Fe. I think that Fi might actually be more emotional when it comes to fictional characters, as they can attach their own feelings to the characters and feel their struggle on a more personal level than Fe will usually try to do. I think Fe will usually view emotional aspects as more of a loss of potential that could have been given instead of an innately sad event... Sort of like it's emotional assets are more spread out

"The moral code that you follow can also be Ti"
bah, it seems to appear too spontaneously, as if there was some wall between what's right and wrong...I don't think it was always the case, tho. I don't think I always cared about that, that I had a lot of morals in the past.
The spontaneity of your moral code could just be evidence of low Ti not analyzing it as much as it could, and acting quicker, which is essentially what Fe is anyway. Your "wall between right and wrong" could also be Fe rather than Fi, as Fe still looks to morals, it just spreads out its arguments more and doesn't focus as much on absolutes, meaning that the wall might need to be demolished depending on what's affected by it. Fe might make many temporary walls, whereas Fi might make stronger, carefully placed walls that are meant to be permanent until they are shown to be worn down.

"The moral code that you follow can also be Ti, as you may decide that there is a certain system that you will logically follow based on your feelings, rather than created by your feelings"
The difference here being Fe-Ti can logically see why it's "good" to follow values, "what feels right" while Fi-Te would just go for it without second thought...? I'm probably closer to Fi in this case (of course we all have values that we can logically justify: "I don't want to kill because it's stupid to do that" as well as the good ol' "it's bad because it's bad, fuck off", obviously, but as far as I'm concerned, I guess it could just be justified by my feelings, yeah: "there's something that disturbs me with that, I wouldn't feel at peace if I did that", which is more Fi-like, I presume, even if, like I said, I agree it's more often than not totally irrational and I'd look like a clown if others knew about those thoughts).
I think both Fe and Fi will follow values and "what feels right" automatically, the difference is how those values are tempered. Are they tempered by the values being logically untrue (such as the fact that morals don't technically exist) or by them being practically inefficient (such as the fact that you can't get everything you want)? These are not set in stone, as most types can essentially do both. The main determinant is what your natural state is and what you retreat to when you don't focus on your values. Do you retreat to careful analysis or external testing?

Fi is not the only function that allows someone to truly feel morality. Fe still makes people pay attention to feelings and decide what is right and wrong. The main difference is that Fi looks to itself to judge the situation and Fe focuses on the situation (and still how they feel about it) more than the innate morality of the judgement.

"They were likely Ti arguments, as they were based on each other and used deductive reasoning, rather than inductive reasoning"
They were? I never really understood why people seem to think I think more in terms of deductive reasonings than in terms of inductive reasonings...I guess I should read more about the two.
Deductive reasoning: Absolute and impossible to validate without proven facts
If A, then B.
A, therefore, B.

Inductive reasoning: General and only requires evidence, not certainty
I have only seen B when A is true.
B.
Therefore, probably A.

An example of when you might have used deductive reasoning: "btw could that be Te to need an "external" support to understand something?"
Te needs external support to understand something.
I need external support to understand this.
I must use Te. (If the premises are true, that is)

The inductive version:
I have evidence that Te users need external support to understand things.
I have evidence that I need external support to understand things.
I probably use Te. (If the evidence can be generalized, that is)

While you may not be confident in a specific deductive argument's truth, it just seems to me like you base your arguments on logical absoluteness rather than logical probability. What do you think?

As far as I can tell, you seem to be an Fe-Ti user just based on how you explain things. It's not something I can quite put into words accurately, but you don't seem to be focusing on Fi-Te values in the way you ask questions and interpret things. I also think you might be an Ne-Si user based on your focus on the details and your improvisation of connections between them (jumping between different aspects of situations that you explain). This isn't really a valid proof though, because any type can act similar to another type and guessing a type based on feeling over text is too anecdotal to be reliable.

I think it would be helpful to watch interviews (Maybe just a bit of them, as they can be really long) with different types to see if they explain things in a relatable way or just have commonalities with you. Here are some interviews so that you don't just get generic generalizations. Also, don't get too attached to the specific ways people act because it may not be indicative of everyone of that type.
ESFJ
ENFJ and 2
ENTP
ENFP

I hope this helped. I would also advise you to research the functions yourself. Here is a useful site for the theory. Here is a list of descriptions of the functions by different authors.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
No Problem. I just didn't read it correctly the first time.



Empathy for fictional characters on screen isn't necessarily Fi or Fe. I can say that I have experienced the same thing, even with inferior Fe. I think that Fi might actually be more emotional when it comes to fictional characters, as they can attach their own feelings to the characters and feel their struggle on a more personal level than Fe will usually try to do. I think Fe will usually view emotional aspects as more of a loss of potential that could have been given instead of an innately sad event... Sort of like it's emotional assets are more spread out



The spontaneity of your moral code could just be evidence of low Ti not analyzing it as much as it could, and acting quicker, which is essentially what Fe is anyway. Your "wall between right and wrong" could also be Fe rather than Fi, as Fe still looks to morals, it just spreads out its arguments more and doesn't focus as much on absolutes, meaning that the wall might need to be demolished depending on what's affected by it. Fe might make many temporary walls, whereas Fi might make stronger, carefully placed walls that are meant to be permanent until they are shown to be worn down.



I think both Fe and Fi will follow values and "what feels right" automatically, the difference is how those values are tempered. Are they tempered by the values being logically untrue (such as the fact that morals don't technically exist) or by them being practically inefficient (such as the fact that you can't get everything you want)? These are not set in stone, as most types can essentially do both. The main determinant is what your natural state is and what you retreat to when you don't focus on your values. Do you retreat to careful analysis or external testing?

Fi is not the only function that allows someone to truly feel morality. Fe still makes people pay attention to feelings and decide what is right and wrong. The main difference is that Fi looks to itself to judge the situation and Fe focuses on the situation (and still how they feel about it) more than the innate morality of the judgement.



Deductive reasoning: Absolute and impossible to validate without proven facts
If A, then B.
A, therefore, B.

Inductive reasoning: General and only requires evidence, not certainty
I have only seen B when A is true.
B.
Therefore, probably A.

An example of when you might have used deductive reasoning: "btw could that be Te to need an "external" support to understand something?"
Te needs external support to understand something.
I need external support to understand this.
I must use Te. (If the premises are true, that is)

The inductive version:
I have evidence that Te users need external support to understand things.
I have evidence that I need external support to understand things.
I probably use Te. (If the evidence can be generalized, that is)

While you may not be confident in a specific deductive argument's truth, it just seems to me like you base your arguments on logical absoluteness rather than logical probability. What do you think?

As far as I can tell, you seem to be an Fe-Ti user just based on how you explain things. It's not something I can quite put into words accurately, but you don't seem to be focusing on Fi-Te values in the way you ask questions and interpret things. I also think you might be an Ne-Si user based on your focus on the details and your improvisation of connections between them (jumping between different aspects of situations that you explain). This isn't really a valid proof though, because any type can act similar to another type and guessing a type based on feeling over text is too anecdotal to be reliable.

I think it would be helpful to watch interviews (Maybe just a bit of them, as they can be really long) with different types to see if they explain things in a relatable way or just have commonalities with you. Here are some interviews so that you don't just get generic generalizations. Also, don't get too attached to the specific ways people act because it may not be indicative of everyone of that type.
ESFJ
ENFJ and 2
ENTP
ENFP

I hope this helped. I would also advise you to research the functions yourself. Here is a useful site for the theory. Here is a list of descriptions of the functions by different authors.
If you don't mind...could you take a look at this "analysis" coming from someone I asked to type me? Let's see if you still think I'm Fe-Ti after this... (bold is me, otherwise, it's him)
About my values...I wouldn't say I live with many values, causes that are dear to me. But at the same time, when I think about different things I could possibly do, for myself or others (lie, manipulate, etc...), I tell myself «...no». Perhaps it's those «values» dear to Fi users the latter are only really aware of once they have to deal with situations that go against the said values. Also, apparently Fi users are prone to feel particularly bad about fictional characters as it is easier for them to «relate» (while Fe users wouldn't care as much as them because «duh, it's just fiction»...which is absolutely true). It's true I can feel pretty bad because of fictional stuff. For example that one game, Dragon Quest V where the protagonist is a guy who has the opportunity to marry his childhood friend or two girls he barely knows: a sweet girl and an arrogant and bossy girl. My plan was to use three saves to marry each girl but...it really feels like this game wants you to marry your childhood friend. And after choosing the other girls, I felt a little bad about it. My reaction was probably exaggerated, yeah, it's just a game...
Fi actually views values a little differently than what we usually use it as. It's more of a "what I find to be important" than these high concept values like 'honor' or similar things. It's very personal.
It can be interesting to think about what exactly caused you to feel bad here. It can easily be the feel-bad of the game trying to force you to make certain decisions. It's very much in line with Fi to resist being put in a situation where they have to compromise their beliefs in some way or another. I can see an Fi-user try to derail the game in this way.

[wuote]Finally, I heard Fe users were really «flexible» and just want the well-being of their «group» , making sure everyone feels good, has everything, is satisfied, that even when they were not satisfied themselves, they let the mood of the group influence them and they end up enjoying what the rest of the group is doing. All of this while Fi users were more likely to bitch about it, pout or do something else on their own. Well, if it's the case, I think I'm more a Fi guy, then (even if I make it sound like this attitude sucks...even if it's my opinion on that matter, if that's how I am, hey...!). [/quote]

You're sort of right on the Fe here, although it can go a lot of different ways based on the specific situation. For example: yesterday my wife was at a party and some girl she had met once before started to explain her whole life story to her. It got very personal and emotional. It cost my wife a lot of energy to stay in that conversation but she kept in there anyway because the other girl was getting a lot out of it.
I think it depends on the situation how Fe and Fi manifest though. No function exists on its own so it's hard to isolate any specific function here.
My whole conception of things seems to be fucked up 😆 I would probably know more if I were to search fore more informations...but at the same, I'm not totally comfortable around functions articles. I think I'm reluctant because I don't want to read things that could make me consider some high Fi-ness (if I have it, I hardly see «my» Te above «my» Fi, I'm way too indecisive for that). Being reluctant to do/watch something because you «know» this will make you feel bad or angry sounds like a pretty F thing to do, doesn't it? To give importance to your feelings sounds like a pretty Fi thing, nah?
I actually agree that not looking up information because it might challenge your views sounds a lot like Fi (but there are other possibilities).
I can see that if you would have Fi and Te, Fi would probably be higher than Te.
In fact, some of the things that you described in the intro could fit very well with an IxFP type. Anxiety, having a goal like 'have a job' without knowing how you would achieve it and in general not enjoying putting yourself out there all makes it pretty unlikely for you ever to be an ExTJ. I could not see you have a Te lead.

I'm afraid my own vision of good and wrong could affect my decisions, starting with things as dumb as killing rodents. My mom recently told me she saw what she thought to be a mouse. I told myself «what do I do if there is indeed a mouse and I see it? Could I kill it?». I don't know if I would have the «guts» to do something I see as «wrong» even if deep down, I know it's the best thing to do.
I actually really like typing based off of these kinds of scenarios. The ultimate decision isn't really all that important but the decision process is usually a big giveaway towards figuring out T/F.

It's really interesting to see your decision process here. I can see possible Fi again because you're really concerned with your own views of right and wrong. The scenario with the mouse can be a case of Fi over Te as Fi might keep you from executing on these things with Te.

So there was this rapper who apparently lynched a guy with some of his friends. And there was this guy who defended him: hey, only god can judge him!». That's stupid. That's not how society works. If anything, saying «I let god judge me» means you can do all sort of terrible things but still avoid the law because «divine justice is more important to me than your justice». Who is willing to do horrible stuff on earth while «knowing» (I don't believe in god, it feels pretty weird to put yourself in their shoes, damn) god will punish them for their misdeeds (and if murder is one of the worst crimes in every religion, why would you want to commit it and live 30 years or 84 years...no one knows and then rest in hell for the rest of your «life»? It's not worth it. This kind of things is why religions are so badly seen nowadays. As if you could do anything because «hey, don't worry, maybe I raped and killed your daughter, but Satan will punish me when I die!».
Some interesting observations here:
You seem to have trouble putting yourself in the shoes of people who have very different views than you, that does fit with the idea of absent or very low Fe.
You seem to resist the idea of accepting other people's reasonings based on their own merits. I could see that as a reason to think of Fi over Ti. On the other hand, you seem to be able to follow the lines of reasoning through their natural conclusion, so it's not impossible that it's still Ti in some way?

Do you sometimes hesitate to post something because of how it would be seen (as stupid, for example)? I think nowadays I tend to «expect» other people to answer me a certain way and it's as if I was arguing with myself : initial thought yeah, but there's also this, you're contradicting yourself or people will reply this, if they think about it, of course... yeah, you're right bud
That could partly be Ne talking here, since Ne is known for putting up 'what-ifs' when you're trying to do something. I have an ENTP student who is often paralyzed with indecision because he's so good at thinking up all of these scenarios of how things could go wrong. He then ends up missing his chance to do the thing he wanted to do.

-Do you also take the time to think about something just for the sake of it? To criticize an idea you assume people could have but then, you're not sure they would think this but you continue to «think about it» nevertheless while thinking «heh, it would be so dumb to think that way»? I can't give examples but in my (fucked up) memories, this happened to me on a few occasions.
Again, fits with Ne, but it could be Ti or Fi talking. The thought "it would be so dumb to think that way" could be either of those, just a different interpretation of them.

I also have the impression that when I think about something, I just «throw» ideas I have, ideas that can be totally dumb...but then, when I «check», I realize it's dumb and I think more and more until I find something.
Again, sounds like Ne. Not sure if this 'inner critic' could be Fi.

Someone ironically says «in 20-30 years, white race will no longer exists». Some black guy says «good news!». Another guy tells him something among the lines of «ur mom is working for me as a cleaning lady lelelel». Some girl starts getting mad at him so I start wondering...why would you be mad at someone because of a slightly racist comment making fun of his mom and cleaning ladies but not at the guy who's happy at the thought of the disappearance of the white race?». Her answer: both answers are racists but the other guy is worse because he makes fun of the guy's mother AND a certain category of jobs. According to her, it doesn't matter if you rejoice about that because «the white race won't disappear, so it's okay». So...it's okay to say the worst things if it's «unrealistic», it's not «going to happen»? I don't know if it's intellectual laziness, but I'm almost tempted to say «yeah, you're right, sorry about that». If you look at things through her lens, there's something real (making fun of a category of people) and something which is not (our upcoming extinction). I think I was «mad» because I saw that as a wish: for us to go extinct. She draws lines. For her, there are the «serious, real things» and the rest «what is not real, humor». This lad was just joking, as he said.
I know I'm more likely to believe in those «conspiracies» due to my years as an alt-right sympathizer but as far as they're concerned, they clearly don't think it's real. If they thought it was real, I think (hope...) she would be a little more shocked. So in the end...if you say one thing absolutely malevolent, if it doesn't have anything to do with reality, even «real» things that seem unimportant in comparison are worse... I absolutely have no point. I wrote this wall of text as I was thinking about it and...I'm concretely just saying «yeah, you're right»...bah, doesn't matter


Things like this are why I initially thought of Ti for you. You seem very focused on understanding the reasons. But there can be a difference between understanding 'the reason someone says something' or 'the reasonings that person uses'. The first one could be Fi, the second one could be Ti. They can be really close in practice, especially for someone who thinks a lot.

«One of our ministers shouldn't go to the 93» (a department which is...pretty much your typical shithole full of immigrants and drugs that "white rich people" despise and fear). This comes from a muslim. Context: some politicians don't want muslim women to wear their veil during school trips. Some people saw this as a threat. At first, I wanted to «defend» him (even though I don't have any sympathy for him) by saying it was just an advice and not a threat but...the more I think about it, the more I realize I don't even know the definition of «threat». I see threat as something which is rather «active»: «if you do this/don't do this, I'll break you». There is a concrete implication of the person who threatens. As for advice, I would say it's much more «passive»: «oh, if I were you, I wouldn't do this...but hey, whatever, it's your life, not mine». Threats are a «bad thing» : you intimidate someone, you only think about yourself and your interests. While advices seem to be a much more friendly, selfless thing. But if you think about it...when you threaten someone not to do something, for example...in a certain way, it's an advice. You «protect» their integrity by warning them. You put your interests and their integrity on the same level. Is he telling him he will actively assault him if he shows up in this part of our country? No. Is he telling him he shouldn't show up there because some people could beat him? No, but you could understand it that way. If he had influence and told his minions to harass him if he showed up there, you could see this as a threat. But we're not barbarians, are we? So, to sum it up (because it's a mess, I should be more organized and make up my mind: I'm literally writing this as my ideas progressively come to my mind): in my humble opinion, a threat is a threat when you want to prevent someone from doing what they want and you are capable of retaliate if they do it anyway. Example: don't date this girl, or... (I'll shoot you, rape her in front of you, execute you, torture her and finish her...). An advice doesn't have the same intensity and isn't as morally reprehensible. You simply tell someone they should not do something, for this may cause problems to them. You don't intend to harm the person. You just want to give your opinion: it's a bad idea. As a conclusion, no matter how bad you want someone not to do something, if you consider things from an objective point of view («people may beat the crap out of you»/«you will dislike what you will see there») and not a subjective point of view («I will actively kick your ass if you come here, be sure of it»), it's not a threat. Just a mere observation. Now, of course, maybe he just don't want to see him in his «territory» and of course, there's a subjective point of view...but still, it's passive => it's an advice. 4 A.M and I'm tormenting myself (and I will torment you as well) with all this conceptual wank...what am I doing with my life!

I have a lot of trouble finding anything here that relates to the F/T dilemma we have here. I can see how this state of mind flow of yours does fit Ne very well.

Our president answers an interview given by a «far-right» magazine...apparently it's the first time one of our presidents do that. So now, people think he's licking the arse of the far-right. But at first, there's something that really pisses me off: why couldn't he answer them? He's not trying to get the «far-right» on his side just because he accepts to answer them. With this logic, if one day we have a far-right president (lmao) and he accepts to answer an interview given by a far-left magazine, will the population shout «and now he's befriending the commies!»? No. But even if the principle, the «logic» is dubious...then I think about those people who say he adopts a «far-right» politics when it comes to immigration for example. And then I understand their indignation, I understand why they think «he has a far-right policy and now he's answering their interview!? My fears are justified!». So...my first reaction was «anger» (disappointment? Scepticism? Bah, I don't really know) but when you think about it...it's more than just a bunch of whiners. If people think he has a far-right policy on a certain topic and he decides to tell far-right guys about this very policy, yeah, I can understand why people yell. Now, apparently, what he said was not really something a far-right person would say...so yeah, I think people are just hysterical
There's a lot of value-laden language here. You seem to have some strong opinions on things here but still you're more interested in seeing different sides of things rather than pushing your own opinion. I honestly have trouble making something of that.

Some teacher killed a girl in a pretty atrocious way. The school «belongs» to a far-right politician so now people start to condemn far-right: «look! This is the far-right! Do you want our country to be governed by people who are friends with this kind of criminals?» Looks pretty stupid to me: looks like they're blaming the politician because she gave him the job...as if she could know the guy was a future murderer. Make generalizations? Sounds dumb, it's just one of them...but saying this makes me a fucking hypocrite, considering how my «side» just does the same. Discredict a whole movement/religion because of a minority of extremists or criminals is pretty stupid, it's true but...no wonder you do that when you see the ideas spread by far-right movements or religions (I'll be honest there, I'm thinking of Islam). Makes more sense than to shit on Walmart or Ikea because of one of their employees, let's say. Now a religion or a political movement...those things have ideologies. If you kill someone and use your religion as an excuse when it's just you who want to commit a crime, it can be quite a dick move, yeah...but then, if your action can be explained by some things your prophet said... Oh, I also saw someone say this «far-right» school was meant to radicalize students...problem is if they enter this school, they probably already belong to the far-right and therefore already radicalized :>
You know, I'm starting to think that Ti might not be your thing but your Ne might just be so active that you're just continuously laying connections, which can come off as a Ti reasoning? I don't know. It's just that your arguments are kind of all over the place which could mean that it's less likely to be Ti? I'm really searching here.

Turks telling us we shouldn't criticize them because we colonized the world and committed slaughters...why should we not criticize other peoples when we did something «wrong» (the important word being DID)? If your dad was a killer, does it mean you can't shit on killers? Now, I guess they refer to the «fact» we still «exploit» Africa, so we're not all goodies, but still.

Nowadays, I think more (maybe too much, it's probably why I hesitate so much and don't send a lot of messages) about what I want to say and find contradictions. Perhaps I don't want to be contradicted or seen as a dumbass...

Not wanting to be contradicted or seen as a dumbass could be part of Fi I guess?

I can be fairly disagreeable when something or someone bothers me. When people tell me I don't smile and look pissed off, I can be quite cold and clearly annoyed. Sometimes, my mother tells me I become «aggressive» (to be fair, it's more like bitchy «ugh, I don't want to talk, you told me enough things, no need to continue the discussion» moments). I'm «aware» of those moments and sometimes tell myself «shit, I said it in a pretty grumpy way».
Interestingly I have similar stories from both Ti and Fi. Both can be disagreeable when someone bothers them but they often have different reasons.

Even if I'm «able» to understand the point of view of other people (I guess) and think it's not «that» dumb, I rarely change my opinion, even when I know I'm in the wrong. As if I just wanted to keep shitting on other people for the sake of it.
This actually sounds a lot like Fi. Ti is usually very quick to change its opinion when the Ti-user thinks they might be wrong. Fi-users can be very stubborn, even in the face of being wrong.

About my reluctance to talk about my feelings, I have to wonder why I don't talk about them. I let people know about it online (I talk about my problems and the way I feel about some things as if sharing those stories helped me dealing with frustration, disappointment or weird situations that put a smile on my face while I'm also confused or hurt at the same time) but otherwise, I'm so reserved the only things that could let other people know I feel bad are some grunts, deep breaths, angry/sad/annoyed looks. I don't think it's because I don't want to «ruin the mood» (Fe?) or because my feelings are 2deep4u (Fi?), I think it's simply because I know how to deal with them (aka I know how to wait and quickly forget about my problems).
Fi-users have introverted feeling, which often means that they don't talk about their feelings (also, men aren't really taught to talk about their feelings, which is another dose towards that). The way you handle this could definitely be Fi. I wonder about your way of 'knowing how to deal with them'. Fi-users generally have better ways to deal with their feelings than Ti-users, although I'm not sure if the way you describe here is healthy.
I'm leaning more and more towards Fi here.

I feel like I don't understand things very quickly and I'm a little «slow». I also think I don't understand all the things that are subtly implied. Since that dumb habit I have to think T types are geniuses who must absolutely understand everything, I spend too much time thinking about things that I don't understand easily enough. It can happen a lot. In this case, I end up «drawing my own conclusion» and stop when I find it satisfying.
Of course T types aren't geniuses. Some are, but I'm not even sure if geniuses are even more common among thinking types. The smartest person I know is an ENFP.
The way you describe this though really doesn't seem like Ti. It's unstructured and doesn't really lead anywhere. Stopping when you find it satisfying sounds a lot more like Fi than Ti to me.
So I'm really turning around on this. Fi seems to fit pretty well with what you're saying here

I think I have a problem. I watched a Super Mario 64 video where some guy kills that annoying penguin and I told myself «shit, poor penguin, could I even do that?». Or when I hesitate to declare war to a country that appreciates mine in Europa Universalis IV. Would thinkers even care about that? Since when do I even do that? I know I can be sensitive but that's just ridiculous.
Thinkers could definitely care in that way. Everyone is different and unique and there are a million factors that make up personality. MBTI just talks about two of them.
I can see this as possible Fi again, but it's not really all that clear

Went to the supermarket, bough a beer and gloves. I ended up buying food to a hobo who talked to me (and yes, I decided to leave when he approached me), I don't really know why. To feel at peace with myself? To make him happy? Because of the alcohol in my veins? I don't know but when I told my dad, he told me I should not give food to hobos since we don't even know if they try to find a job. When I got home, I realized the gloves were too small, got really pissed, bit the box and angrily threw it in the trash. This good deed as well as my response to this plan that clearly wasn't planned well enough...does it say anything about me...in a mbti way?
The emotional responses here do fit with Fi.

I don't really know what it says about me, but sometimes, when I play some games, I can become very angry and enraged, when we're not good enough. As if I take it a little too seriously or personally and being great at games was the only way I found to prove my worth. In this regard, even if I don't shit on my teammates or «enemies», I still get very mad, blaming my teammates, thinking «come on, we can't lose against those idiots». When I see someone play my «main» better than me, I usually get mad. Again, I only insult those who insult me. And when people criticize me, it's as if, at first, I didn't take it that bad, but only then, after a few minutes, I started to think about it too much and got pissed. I usually don't leave but I have to admit that one day, I got offended and left the game. Strangely enough, I could still see their messages and of course, everyone was shitting on me (even the enemy team, which makes sense: finding games can take quite a while). So...maybe I'm a little sensitive, sometimes.
This need to prove your worth is very telling of Fi with lower Te. The emotional response fits Fi as well.

I avoid videos from people I don't like (in order to...avoid negative feelings, frustration, I suppose). I sometimes wonder if I could even do things such as "liking" posts from communities I don't appreciate (TeamPB from 2021 speaking here: yeah, of course I could do that), even if I find their comments funny or watch a T.V show if it tells us about crimes that target minorities. As if I didn't want to feel bad or something. I don't know if this is a remnant of my edgy alt-right phase but I assume people would think this is ridiculous and I won't blame them for this. This also reminds me of this «fear»: responses people can give me. Maybe this is why I'm «intimidated» by some T forums on the website, for example (answers that won't please me, telling me I'm some feeler).
Avoiding people you don't like fits with Fi, fear of responses from others is typical for lower Te.
Being so concerned with other people's opinions isn't really an Fi or Te thing per se, but there might be some deeper things going on here. You seem to have a low opinion of yourself and it's typical for people in that situation to have trouble taking negativity, since you already give yourself so much negativity. Believe me, I've done exactly that for most of my life. I know the feeling. Just remember that others can never make it as hard on you as you can make it on yourself

There are those cases where I wouldn't want to return to a job if I don't feel as «ready» as I was before. That job at a supermarket, for example (sent my CV 5 days ago, they don't seem to care), go to vote (after making a fool of myself) or to a store if I think sellers think I'm an ugly idiot (not giving a good first impression, what a shame). It's as if I had to be brave enough to do something. As if I'm confident about something Monday, but then Tuesday, when I'm supposed to do it again, I've lost my interest, motivation or «bravery».
Again, looks a lot like lower Te.

That's funny, people either think I have a good Ti (dom or aux)...or they just can't see it at all (and assume I'm Fi dom/aux). So that's why I'm think in any case, I'm just P. That gives me 8 possible combinations...but it's better than nothing.
I'm beginning to think that you might be an Fi-dominant that really values some things that are traditionally linked to Ti. That could explain how you can come off as having Ti while you're probably an Fi-user.

I read somewhere Fe is quite concerned with the social world around them, but don't know a lot about it and are, well, not really into emotions. I don't really know if I want to have friends and connect to other people. Deep down, even if I'm (in my opinion), an introverted person, I know I have to live with other people. Do I «crave» for it? That's the problem: I spend a lot of time alone and I can't even tell if I like it or not. Would I prefer it if I was more frequently surrounded by other people? Tough question. I could adapt to it, I suppose. They say Fe inferior is afraid to be seen as weird, awkward by other people, to be that «socially awkward guy who doesn't know how to interract with other people». I don't know if this is my fear, but I indeed, am not the most skilled person when it comes to social interractions: lack of eye contact (I will have to work on it, pretty hard when you assume people will think you're ugly and you would rather put a mask on your face for the rest of your life), bad conversationalist (I genuinely don't know what to talk about with other people. I'm not into sport, not into intellectual stuff...
I could see you as an introvert. It wasn't the impression you gave off at first but you've really opened up in this post and I can see how you could be an introvert actually. You were really hiding it and the only thing I could see was the extraverted side. I can see the Fi clearly now though.

I don't really know how to greet other people (when I take the time to greet them, that is: when I started my first job, I was quite shy and didn't really want to greet my coworkers, so one of them got upset and scolded me in front of everyone...there's also that one time I had to kiss a girl I know on the cheek but she told me I had a weird way to kiss people: I literally kiss people on the cheek. It's probably what makes sense to me, but I supposed you don't have to do that...then I read that you can actually kiss people ON the cheek...or just touch their cheek with yours and make a kiss noise. Two choices. And if you don't do them the «good way», some assertive people will lightly make fun of you. That's why I avoid people). I'm a pretty awkward lad. When I think about a lot of things I said, I can only smile and say ''thanks god, it's part of the past''. For example, that one time I told something to my crush (there's something that annoys me with this expression...maybe because I saw some people admit they didn't like this term) that was pretty crude or that one time I laughed at one of my shitty jokes so bad that some of my classmates laughed as well.
Reading this I'd almost think you might be on the autistic spectrum. Not really any of my business of course and I don't have any strong reasons to think so, just a random observation.
Anway: I can see how Fe is nowhere near your function stack though. It's pretty clear now.

And there's Te inferior that seems to be afraid to be seen as an unreliable, incompetent loser. I can relate to this, I guess, it's not funny to be seen as such.
I was actually thinking this myself. I can see a lot of reasons to think of inferior Te for you. A lot of things you're saying here fit that.

Also, I don't know if it's Fe or Fi ("I don't want people to be upset because I wouldn't want to be upset myself!") (2021 TeamPB again...probably just that I don't wanna upset others)
That's textbook Fi.

Or something like that) but it's true when I think about some things I could say, I don't always say them out of fear to be seen as rude. For example, remember that one time on my thread I said I would tell that coworker I like he said bullshit...I wouldn't allow myself to be like that with everyone. You never know how people will react. You better be cautious and learn to know other people before try this. That's why shyness or cowardice can be a great thing, sometimes. But I don't know if I should see this as a lack of Fe, to be honest.
It can fit lack of Fe, definitely.

There's also this side of the descriptions that seem to make Fi users look quite irrational: even if everything seems to indicate that A = A or that you should do something you don't want to do, you will just blindly, impulsively «follow your heart» and disregard Te, even if it's «the thing to do». As far as I'm concerned, I'm able to recognize it when something is wrong (even if yes, I end up still «believing in it»), it's hard to refute some facts and reasonings. Now when it comes to what Fi is (about...75% about?) : morality, what I think is «right» and «wrong», it's true sometimes, I tend to think «this sucks, I could never do that», I don't know if I should see that as Fi. Let's say I tend to «judge actions», would I do something I judge wrong if it was a good thing for me, in the end? Stealing, cheating, lying, killing... If a high Fi user would say «I don't think so, it would make me feel horrible...» and a high Te user «definitely, as long as it helps me with my objectives», I think I'm leaning towards the high Fi side...godamnit, why would telling some lies even bother me, it's not like I kill or rape someone? And why do I make high Te users look like cold-blooded psychos who would break your legs and lend you to old vicious perverts who will rape you multiple times and let you starve to death in a cave, just for money?
As I said before, you seem like an Fi-dominant that values some things that are traditionally linked to Ti. Logic and rationality. You seem to have a passion for that and that is actually Fi, weirdly enough.



Here. Sorry for the wall of text. I realize I sure was a sensitive whiner, back then, yikes. I guess I'm better, nowadays.
So, could I be the missing link between FJ and FP?

Thanks in advance to you or anyone who may want to answer this.
 

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I appreciate the additional information. It definitely changes my perspective as it gives me both a different analysis and a lot of new information to see alternate perspectives and deepen my interpretation beyond assumptions.

"About my values...I wouldn't say I live with many values, causes that are dear to me. But at the same time, when I think about different things I could possibly do, for myself or others (lie, manipulate, etc...), I tell myself «...no». Perhaps it's those «values» dear to Fi users the latter are only really aware of once they have to deal with situations that go against the said values."

I have heard Fi users describe Fi as a sort of search for their values. It's not that they immediately have a value that they can't break. They have to experience or imagine it first. The same thing is true with Ti. Ti doesn't immediately have a system or logic to anything ever. It has to create it and test it mentally first. By your description, I would say that that is possibly Fi. I think Fe and Te feel a little more "Free-willed" when it comes to finding their values. If I wanted to decide on my feelings toward something, I would wrestle with the multiple feelings that I have in order to find which is more overpowering.

"My whole conception of things seems to be fucked up 😆 I would probably know more if I were to search fore more informations...but at the same, I'm not totally comfortable around functions articles. I think I'm reluctant because I don't want to read things that could make me consider some high Fi-ness (if I have it, I hardly see «my» Te above «my» Fi, I'm way too indecisive for that). Being reluctant to do/watch something because you «know» this will make you feel bad or angry sounds like a pretty F thing to do, doesn't it? To give importance to your feelings sounds like a pretty Fi thing, nah?"

Fe still values their own feelings, but may not make it a priority depending on the situation. What you described depends very much on the situation and whether they are generally comfortable being uncomfortable, rather than how they process feelings. Fi will, however, focus more on their feelings when deciding their core personal reason for liking or disliking something, whereas Fe will look more at the big picture. If you always do this, no matter what, for the sake of yourself, and for the sake of quality, rather than an outcome, it's probably Fi.

"I'm afraid my own vision of good and wrong could affect my decisions, starting with things as dumb as killing rodents. My mom recently told me she saw what she thought to be a mouse. I told myself «what do I do if there is indeed a mouse and I see it? Could I kill it?». I don't know if I would have the «guts» to do something I see as «wrong» even if deep down, I know it's the best thing to do."

This definitely sounds like an Fi thought process. An Fe user may come to the same conclusion, but would likely not base it on pure morality to the user. Additionally, there is a focus on what "you" would do. When I view situations like this, especially morally, I detach from myself in order to see whether my actions would actually change the effect on the mouse. For example, would the mouse suffer more if I didn't kill it and it starved? If so, maybe it would be best for me to choose to go against my personal morality and kill the mouse anyway.

"So there was this rapper who apparently lynched a guy with some of his friends. And there was this guy who defended him: hey, only god can judge him!». That's stupid. That's not how society works. If anything, saying «I let god judge me» means you can do all sort of terrible things but still avoid the law because «divine justice is more important to me than your justice». Who is willing to do horrible stuff on earth while «knowing» (I don't believe in god, it feels pretty weird to put yourself in their shoes, damn) god will punish them for their misdeeds (and if murder is one of the worst crimes in every religion, why would you want to commit it and live 30 years or 84 years...no one knows and then rest in hell for the rest of your «life»? It's not worth it. This kind of things is why religions are so badly seen nowadays. As if you could do anything because «hey, don't worry, maybe I raped and killed your daughter, but Satan will punish me when I die!»."

This sounds like a fed up Te and a Ti argument for an Fi value to me. You are arguing for the ineffectiveness and unreasonableness of an action and questioning why anyone would even want to do such a thing. You seem to use Te to argue that their plan is ineffective, you use Ti demon (8th slot demon comes out when you feel that the inf. function has been abused or can't be used effectively in a situation) to prove that it would be fundamentally illogical, then you add that you can not see how anyone would want to go against the Te mold just in order to also go against one of your Fi values.

The other person mentions that you seem to have low Fe and that you were using Ti somewhat. IxFPs actually do have very strong Fe, but they rarely choose to use it, as it goes directly against their ego. IxFPs have weak Ti, but will still use it extensively to prove something when challenged.

"Do you sometimes hesitate to post something because of how it would be seen (as stupid, for example)? I think nowadays I tend to «expect» other people to answer me a certain way and it's as if I was arguing with myself : initial thought yeah, but there's also this, you're contradicting yourself or people will reply this, if they think about it, of course... yeah, you're right bud"

This sounds very similar to a Ti-Ne thought process, but it could very well be Te. Whereas Ti would try to be correct for the sake of itself while trying to describe their analysis in an Fe way that doesn't come off as insulting or strange, Fi will have an opinion that it will try to express coherently through a Te explanation, and will be discouraged if the explanation is not able to make sense or influence the people that need to be told. For the record, I also have thoughts like this, even with blindspot PoLR Ne, but they are based more on an insecurity of not knowing many possible scenarios, whereas Ne would be insecure based on seeing negative scenarios.

"I also have the impression that when I think about something, I just «throw» ideas I have, ideas that can be totally dumb...but then, when I «check», I realize it's dumb and I think more and more until I find something."

This seems like a combination of Ne and Te. Ne comes up with many surface-level observations/ideas and Te comes up with many surface-level arguments. Because of this, you can come up with many different solutions, but many will fail. The opposite of this would be my thought process, which is Ti and Ni. I cannot for the love of anything come up with enough ideas and arguments to effectively maneuver most new situations. However, when I do come up with something, it will almost never need to be entirely thrown away, and will likely only need minor adjustments.

"Someone ironically says «in 20-30 years, white race will no longer exists». Some black guy says «good news!». Another guy tells him something among the lines of «ur mom is working for me as a cleaning lady lelelel». Some girl starts getting mad at him so I start wondering...why would you be mad at someone because of a slightly racist comment making fun of his mom and cleaning ladies but not at the guy who's happy at the thought of the disappearance of the white race?». Her answer: both answers are racists but the other guy is worse because he makes fun of the guy's mother AND a certain category of jobs. According to her, it doesn't matter if you rejoice about that because «the white race won't disappear, so it's okay». So...it's okay to say the worst things if it's «unrealistic», it's not «going to happen»? I don't know if it's intellectual laziness, but I'm almost tempted to say «yeah, you're right, sorry about that». If you look at things through her lens, there's something real (making fun of a category of people) and something which is not (our upcoming extinction). I think I was «mad» because I saw that as a wish: for us to go extinct. She draws lines. For her, there are the «serious, real things» and the rest «what is not real, humor». This lad was just joking, as he said.
I know I'm more likely to believe in those «conspiracies» due to my years as an alt-right sympathizer but as far as they're concerned, they clearly don't think it's real. If they thought it was real, I think (hope...) she would be a little more shocked. So in the end...if you say one thing absolutely malevolent, if it doesn't have anything to do with reality, even «real» things that seem unimportant in comparison are worse... I absolutely have no point. I wrote this wall of text as I was thinking about it and...I'm concretely just saying «yeah, you're right»...bah, doesn't matter
"

This is an in-depth analysis of feelings and values for actions that I would never even be capable of doing, especially with interest. I definitely think this is Fi. You examine the personal reasons behind people's feelings and thought processes while criticizing their actions, as they seem to contradict their own feelings and interests. I would not be interested in this analysis myself and would instead simply try to change the opinions of these people, regardless of their core perspectives.

"«One of our ministers shouldn't go to the 93» (a department which is...pretty much your typical shithole full of immigrants and drugs that "white rich people" despise and fear). This comes from a muslim. Context: some politicians don't want muslim women to wear their veil during school trips. Some people saw this as a threat. At first, I wanted to «defend» him (even though I don't have any sympathy for him) by saying it was just an advice and not a threat but...the more I think about it, the more I realize I don't even know the definition of «threat». I see threat as something which is rather «active»: «if you do this/don't do this, I'll break you». There is a concrete implication of the person who threatens. As for advice, I would say it's much more «passive»: «oh, if I were you, I wouldn't do this...but hey, whatever, it's your life, not mine». Threats are a «bad thing» : you intimidate someone, you only think about yourself and your interests. While advices seem to be a much more friendly, selfless thing. But if you think about it...when you threaten someone not to do something, for example...in a certain way, it's an advice. You «protect» their integrity by warning them. You put your interests and their integrity on the same level. Is he telling him he will actively assault him if he shows up in this part of our country? No. Is he telling him he shouldn't show up there because some people could beat him? No, but you could understand it that way. If he had influence and told his minions to harass him if he showed up there, you could see this as a threat. But we're not barbarians, are we? So, to sum it up (because it's a mess, I should be more organized and make up my mind: I'm literally writing this as my ideas progressively come to my mind): in my humble opinion, a threat is a threat when you want to prevent someone from doing what they want and you are capable of retaliate if they do it anyway. Example: don't date this girl, or... (I'll shoot you, rape her in front of you, execute you, torture her and finish her...). An advice doesn't have the same intensity and isn't as morally reprehensible. You simply tell someone they should not do something, for this may cause problems to them. You don't intend to harm the person. You just want to give your opinion: it's a bad idea. As a conclusion, no matter how bad you want someone not to do something, if you consider things from an objective point of view («people may beat the crap out of you»/«you will dislike what you will see there») and not a subjective point of view («I will actively kick your ass if you come here, be sure of it»), it's not a threat. Just a mere observation. Now, of course, maybe he just don't want to see him in his «territory» and of course, there's a subjective point of view...but still, it's passive => it's an advice. 4 A.M and I'm tormenting myself (and I will torment you as well) with all this conceptual wank...what am I doing with my life!"

You state many personal interpretations of values based on different perspectives of concrete examples. I think this is an example of an Fi-Ne thought process. Additionally, all of your examples seem to work this way. You state a detailed Si scenario in which there are different Ne perspectives that your Fi values can be viewed from, where you doubt the feasibility of this analysis in the Te real-world system(...what am I doing with my life!).

I don't really think I need to continue... but I will for the sake of it.

"Our president answers an interview given by a «far-right» magazine...apparently it's the first time one of our presidents do that. So now, people think he's licking the arse of the far-right. But at first, there's something that really pisses me off: why couldn't he answer them? He's not trying to get the «far-right» on his side just because he accepts to answer them. With this logic, if one day we have a far-right president (lmao) and he accepts to answer an interview given by a far-left magazine, will the population shout «and now he's befriending the commies!»? No. But even if the principle, the «logic» is dubious...then I think about those people who say he adopts a «far-right» politics when it comes to immigration for example. And then I understand their indignation, I understand why they think «he has a far-right policy and now he's answering their interview!? My fears are justified!». So...my first reaction was «anger» (disappointment? Scepticism? Bah, I don't really know) but when you think about it...it's more than just a bunch of whiners. If people think he has a far-right policy on a certain topic and he decides to tell far-right guys about this very policy, yeah, I can understand why people yell. Now, apparently, what he said was not really something a far-right person would say...so yeah, I think people are just hysterical"

This seems very much to be an Fi view of hysterical Fe behavior. The Fe behavior has a place in functioning society, but does not have a place in the true values of this political issue. You acknowledge that there is no way to avoid this behavior because it is useful for the people involved, but you dismiss it as trivial to your own values.

"Some teacher killed a girl in a pretty atrocious way. The school «belongs» to a far-right politician so now people start to condemn far-right: «look! This is the far-right! Do you want our country to be governed by people who are friends with this kind of criminals?» Looks pretty stupid to me: looks like they're blaming the politician because she gave him the job...as if she could know the guy was a future murderer. Make generalizations? Sounds dumb, it's just one of them...but saying this makes me a fucking hypocrite, considering how my «side» just does the same. Discredict a whole movement/religion because of a minority of extremists or criminals is pretty stupid, it's true but...no wonder you do that when you see the ideas spread by far-right movements or religions (I'll be honest there, I'm thinking of Islam). Makes more sense than to shit on Walmart or Ikea because of one of their employees, let's say. Now a religion or a political movement...those things have ideologies. If you kill someone and use your religion as an excuse when it's just you who want to commit a crime, it can be quite a dick move, yeah...but then, if your action can be explained by some things your prophet said... Oh, I also saw someone say this «far-right» school was meant to radicalize students...problem is if they enter this school, they probably already belong to the far-right and therefore already radicalized :>"

As with the above scenario, you analyze the values and behavior of the public and criticize their actions for being illogical for the values that they hold. There is also analysis of their reasoning and deconstruction of fallacies and inaccuracies in their situational arguments, but it is used to serve your interpretation of their values to prove that they are not being true to what they value anyway.

"Turks telling us we shouldn't criticize them because we colonized the world and committed slaughters...why should we not criticize other peoples when we did something «wrong» (the important word being DID)? If your dad was a killer, does it mean you can't shit on killers? Now, I guess they refer to the «fact» we still «exploit» Africa, so we're not all goodies, but still."

This could be either a Ti or an Fi argument. It could be defending Fi identity because the accusation of your values was not true or it could be Ti criticizing an Ad Hominem argument.

"Nowadays, I think more (maybe too much, it's probably why I hesitate so much and don't send a lot of messages) about what I want to say and find contradictions. Perhaps I don't want to be contradicted or seen as a dumbass...
"

This could be Ti or Fi as well. This is common in IxxPs, as they may be confident in their own capabilities of analysis but not their capabilities to continually justify their explanations to other people.

"I can be fairly disagreeable when something or someone bothers me. When people tell me I don't smile and look pissed off, I can be quite cold and clearly annoyed. Sometimes, my mother tells me I become «aggressive» (to be fair, it's more like bitchy «ugh, I don't want to talk, you told me enough things, no need to continue the discussion» moments). I'm «aware» of those moments and sometimes tell myself «shit, I said it in a pretty grumpy way»."

This seems like Fi not wanting to have to modify their outward appearance for the sake of someone else, as they still have the feeling and they want to analyze it. Ti will do the same with arguments and will not care whether their argument is irrelevant or not. When confronted with the inferior function however, the person, if in a healthy mindset, will normally acknowledge their weakness and try to adjust. An Fi dom will try to lessen the burden of them being in the way of goals and a Ti dom will try to lessen the burden of them being in the way of another person's feelings.

"Even if I'm «able» to understand the point of view of other people (I guess) and think it's not «that» dumb, I rarely change my opinion, even when I know I'm in the wrong. As if I just wanted to keep shitting on other people for the sake of it."

If you are an IxFP, your identity hinges on your values and opinions. If you don't shit on other people when you think they're wrong, you won't be able to function as yourself :p. If you know you're in the wrong, then I think you probably either want to slowly ease into the change or you're only in the wrong according to other people, as your opinion is actually what defines wrongness for you and conforming to other people would be inauthentic, regardless of whether they have a point or not.

"About my reluctance to talk about my feelings, I have to wonder why I don't talk about them. I let people know about it online (I talk about my problems and the way I feel about some things as if sharing those stories helped me dealing with frustration, disappointment or weird situations that put a smile on my face while I'm also confused or hurt at the same time) but otherwise, I'm so reserved the only things that could let other people know I feel bad are some grunts, deep breaths, angry/sad/annoyed looks. I don't think it's because I don't want to «ruin the mood» (Fe?) or because my feelings are 2deep4u (Fi?), I think it's simply because I know how to deal with them (aka I know how to wait and quickly forget about my problems."

I think that for an IxFP, sharing their feelings is sharing a personal problem that is not meant to be dealt with by other people and is for the most part meant to be felt and not pushed away. Involving another person in your feelings would be involving them in your decision-making process and would mean that they have personal insight into your identity, which you would need to update them on if it was changed. Also, those small grunts, deep breaths, and angry/sad/annoyed looks are quite enough information for a lot of people to understand your general feeling in the moment. It doesn't usually require a deep analysis of your psyche or a verbal declaration to know that you look pissed. In particular, I'd think that Fe-Se especially would be able to take in those details and get a quick understanding of a few possible moods that you could be in.

"I feel like I don't understand things very quickly and I'm a little «slow». I also think I don't understand all the things that are subtly implied. Since that dumb habit I have to think T types are geniuses who must absolutely understand everything, I spend too much time thinking about things that I don't understand easily enough. It can happen a lot. In this case, I end up «drawing my own conclusion» and stop when I find it satisfying."

This sounds like insecurity about the thinking functions. A lot of the time "subtle implications" are actually just logical conclusions, not additional observations or the result of a faster thought process. Thinking doms have the same issue with trying to understand feelings. When I try to analyze feelings in depth, it ends up becoming entirely Ti or entirely shallow. There's no way for me to just feel my emotions stronger or anything. I just have to deal with it. I imagine it's similar for feeling doms in regards to thinking.

"I think I have a problem. I watched a Super Mario 64 video where some guy kills that annoying penguin and I told myself «shit, poor penguin, could I even do that?». Or when I hesitate to declare war to a country that appreciates mine in Europa Universalis IV. Would thinkers even care about that? Since when do I even do that? I know I can be sensitive but that's just ridiculous."

I have to actively choose to care about things like that most of the time, but when I do, it adds to the experience of the game and adds a layer of depth and challenge, as well as a feeling of actual humanity in-game. I love EU4 btw.

"Went to the supermarket, bough a beer and gloves. I ended up buying food to a hobo who talked to me (and yes, I decided to leave when he approached me), I don't really know why. To feel at peace with myself? To make him happy? Because of the alcohol in my veins? I don't know but when I told my dad, he told me I should not give food to hobos since we don't even know if they try to find a job. When I got home, I realized the gloves were too small, got really pissed, bit the box and angrily threw it in the trash. This good deed as well as my response to this plan that clearly wasn't planned well enough...does it say anything about me...in a mbti way?"

You mentioning that you don't know why you gave the food strikes me as Fi questioning whether its intent is real or not. When I ask this question, I always land on the conclusion that I did it to feel better about myself, regardless of what my brain makes me want to feel. This fact does not make the action invalid though, it's just the observation that we're all flesh robots. You biting the box and throwing away the gloves doesn't say much about MBTI, as any type would do this under different circumstances. The difference is just at what point a type would decide to give in or at what point a type would be affected by their circumstances to be angry enough to do this.

"I don't really know what it says about me, but sometimes, when I play some games, I can become very angry and enraged, when we're not good enough. As if I take it a little too seriously or personally and being great at games was the only way I found to prove my worth. In this regard, even if I don't shit on my teammates or «enemies», I still get very mad, blaming my teammates, thinking «come on, we can't lose against those idiots». When I see someone play my «main» better than me, I usually get mad. Again, I only insult those who insult me. And when people criticize me, it's as if, at first, I didn't take it that bad, but only then, after a few minutes, I started to think about it too much and got pissed. I usually don't leave but I have to admit that one day, I got offended and left the game. Strangely enough, I could still see their messages and of course, everyone was shitting on me (even the enemy team, which makes sense: finding games can take quite a while). So...maybe I'm a little sensitive, sometimes."

Your response seems based on anger when you personally cannot become good at certain Te skills even though you are sure of your desire and deservedness for them. It could also be anger directed toward yourself for not being able to acquire a certain desire fairly by yourself.

"I avoid videos from people I don't like (in order to...avoid negative feelings, frustration, I suppose). I sometimes wonder if I could even do things such as "liking" posts from communities I don't appreciate (TeamPB from 2021 speaking here: yeah, of course I could do that), even if I find their comments funny or watch a T.V show if it tells us about crimes that target minorities. As if I didn't want to feel bad or something. I don't know if this is a remnant of my edgy alt-right phase but I assume people would think this is ridiculous and I won't blame them for this. This also reminds me of this «fear»: responses people can give me. Maybe this is why I'm «intimidated» by some T forums on the website, for example (answers that won't please me, telling me I'm some feeler)."

This sounds like Fi avoiding feelings that aren't desired or committing actions that show inauthenticity of values. I also generally avoid video like these, but I do not immediately decide not to watch them. Instead, I watch them for a while and realize that they aren't going anywhere for me. Your fear of being told "real" answers is also likely Fi, as it conflicts with your values and identity to tell you that your values are not worth your effort.

"There are those cases where I wouldn't want to return to a job if I don't feel as «ready» as I was before. That job at a supermarket, for example (sent my CV 5 days ago, they don't seem to care), go to vote (after making a fool of myself) or to a store if I think sellers think I'm an ugly idiot (not giving a good first impression, what a shame). It's as if I had to be brave enough to do something. As if I'm confident about something Monday, but then Tuesday, when I'm supposed to do it again, I've lost my interest, motivation or «bravery»."

This seems like unbalanced Te. If you struggle to consistently balance your effect on systems in the world, you won't feel confident except when you are especially motivated.

"That's funny, people either think I have a good Ti (dom or aux)...or they just can't see it at all (and assume I'm Fi dom/aux). So that's why I'm think in any case, I'm just P. That gives me 8 possible combinations...but it's better than nothing."

I think you use Fi, but you occasionally use Ti logic to prove to yourself and others that you are able to handle yourself and that your opinions aren't nonsense.

"I read somewhere Fe is quite concerned with the social world around them, but don't know a lot about it and are, well, not really into emotions. I don't really know if I want to have friends and connect to other people. Deep down, even if I'm (in my opinion), an introverted person, I know I have to live with other people. Do I «crave» for it? That's the problem: I spend a lot of time alone and I can't even tell if I like it or not. Would I prefer it if I was more frequently surrounded by other people? Tough question. I could adapt to it, I suppose. They say Fe inferior is afraid to be seen as weird, awkward by other people, to be that «socially awkward guy who doesn't know how to interract with other people». I don't know if this is my fear, but I indeed, am not the most skilled person when it comes to social interractions: lack of eye contact (I will have to work on it, pretty hard when you assume people will think you're ugly and you would rather put a mask on your face for the rest of your life), bad conversationalist (I genuinely don't know what to talk about with other people. I'm not into sport, not into intellectual stuff..."

This seems like Fi being uncomfortable expressing their feelings in a fake way. Fe inferior usually manifests in ignorance or insecurity of social situations, not lack of ability to do things such as eye contact or talking about interests. I would ask whether you think you are insecure about your social presence or if you just feel that it's not natural for you to care about.

"I don't really know how to greet other people (when I take the time to greet them, that is: when I started my first job, I was quite shy and didn't really want to greet my coworkers, so one of them got upset and scolded me in front of everyone...there's also that one time I had to kiss a girl I know on the cheek but she told me I had a weird way to kiss people: I literally kiss people on the cheek. It's probably what makes sense to me, but I supposed you don't have to do that...then I read that you can actually kiss people ON the cheek...or just touch their cheek with yours and make a kiss noise. Two choices. And if you don't do them the «good way», some assertive people will lightly make fun of you. That's why I avoid people). I'm a pretty awkward lad. When I think about a lot of things I said, I can only smile and say ''thanks god, it's part of the past''. For example, that one time I told something to my crush (there's something that annoys me with this expression...maybe because I saw some people admit they didn't like this term) that was pretty crude or that one time I laughed at one of my shitty jokes so bad that some of my classmates laughed as well."

Once again, this seems more like Fi trying to navigate a foreign way to interpret feelings, rather than low Fe. low Fe manifests by worrying the user that they may come off in a way that they can't control and will have to abandon any efforts toward Fe. I think the way you described this situation was that you don't know how to act "normal" and how to express yourself without coming off as strange. While Fe has those insecurities, they are insecurities of stress. I think your insecurities when it comes to social behavior are more like insecurities of identity rather than inability. The other poster mentioned that it could be a sign of autism spectrum disorder, which would make sense.

"There's also this side of the descriptions that seem to make Fi users look quite irrational: even if everything seems to indicate that A = A or that you should do something you don't want to do, you will just blindly, impulsively «follow your heart» and disregard Te, even if it's «the thing to do». As far as I'm concerned, I'm able to recognize it when something is wrong (even if yes, I end up still «believing in it»), it's hard to refute some facts and reasonings. Now when it comes to what Fi is (about...75% about?) : morality, what I think is «right» and «wrong», it's true sometimes, I tend to think «this sucks, I could never do that», I don't know if I should see that as Fi. Let's say I tend to «judge actions», would I do something I judge wrong if it was a good thing for me, in the end? Stealing, cheating, lying, killing... If a high Fi user would say «I don't think so, it would make me feel horrible...» and a high Te user «definitely, as long as it helps me with my objectives», I think I'm leaning towards the high Fi side...godamnit, why would telling some lies even bother me, it's not like I kill or rape someone? And why do I make high Te users look like cold-blooded psychos who would break your legs and lend you to old vicious perverts who will rape you multiple times and let you starve to death in a cave, just for money?"

This sounds like Fi because it focuses on your personal morality and how you feel when you go against your values. Fe would be more focused on how others would feel if you went against their values or your perception of their possible values.

By the way, you don't sound very whiny to me. I think all of your explanations have a good expression of your feelings.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
I appreciate the additional information. It definitely changes my perspective as it gives me both a different analysis and a lot of new information to see alternate perspectives and deepen my interpretation beyond assumptions.

"About my values...I wouldn't say I live with many values, causes that are dear to me. But at the same time, when I think about different things I could possibly do, for myself or others (lie, manipulate, etc...), I tell myself «...no». Perhaps it's those «values» dear to Fi users the latter are only really aware of once they have to deal with situations that go against the said values."

I have heard Fi users describe Fi as a sort of search for their values. It's not that they immediately have a value that they can't break. They have to experience or imagine it first. The same thing is true with Ti. Ti doesn't immediately have a system or logic to anything ever. It has to create it and test it mentally first. By your description, I would say that that is possibly Fi. I think Fe and Te feel a little more "Free-willed" when it comes to finding their values. If I wanted to decide on my feelings toward something, I would wrestle with the multiple feelings that I have in order to find which is more overpowering.

"My whole conception of things seems to be fucked up 😆 I would probably know more if I were to search fore more informations...but at the same, I'm not totally comfortable around functions articles. I think I'm reluctant because I don't want to read things that could make me consider some high Fi-ness (if I have it, I hardly see «my» Te above «my» Fi, I'm way too indecisive for that). Being reluctant to do/watch something because you «know» this will make you feel bad or angry sounds like a pretty F thing to do, doesn't it? To give importance to your feelings sounds like a pretty Fi thing, nah?"

Fe still values their own feelings, but may not make it a priority depending on the situation. What you described depends very much on the situation and whether they are generally comfortable being uncomfortable, rather than how they process feelings. Fi will, however, focus more on their feelings when deciding their core personal reason for liking or disliking something, whereas Fe will look more at the big picture. If you always do this, no matter what, for the sake of yourself, and for the sake of quality, rather than an outcome, it's probably Fi.

"I'm afraid my own vision of good and wrong could affect my decisions, starting with things as dumb as killing rodents. My mom recently told me she saw what she thought to be a mouse. I told myself «what do I do if there is indeed a mouse and I see it? Could I kill it?». I don't know if I would have the «guts» to do something I see as «wrong» even if deep down, I know it's the best thing to do."

This definitely sounds like an Fi thought process. An Fe user may come to the same conclusion, but would likely not base it on pure morality to the user. Additionally, there is a focus on what "you" would do. When I view situations like this, especially morally, I detach from myself in order to see whether my actions would actually change the effect on the mouse. For example, would the mouse suffer more if I didn't kill it and it starved? If so, maybe it would be best for me to choose to go against my personal morality and kill the mouse anyway.

"So there was this rapper who apparently lynched a guy with some of his friends. And there was this guy who defended him: hey, only god can judge him!». That's stupid. That's not how society works. If anything, saying «I let god judge me» means you can do all sort of terrible things but still avoid the law because «divine justice is more important to me than your justice». Who is willing to do horrible stuff on earth while «knowing» (I don't believe in god, it feels pretty weird to put yourself in their shoes, damn) god will punish them for their misdeeds (and if murder is one of the worst crimes in every religion, why would you want to commit it and live 30 years or 84 years...no one knows and then rest in hell for the rest of your «life»? It's not worth it. This kind of things is why religions are so badly seen nowadays. As if you could do anything because «hey, don't worry, maybe I raped and killed your daughter, but Satan will punish me when I die!»."

This sounds like a fed up Te and a Ti argument for an Fi value to me. You are arguing for the ineffectiveness and unreasonableness of an action and questioning why anyone would even want to do such a thing. You seem to use Te to argue that their plan is ineffective, you use Ti demon (8th slot demon comes out when you feel that the inf. function has been abused or can't be used effectively in a situation) to prove that it would be fundamentally illogical, then you add that you can not see how anyone would want to go against the Te mold just in order to also go against one of your Fi values.

The other person mentions that you seem to have low Fe and that you were using Ti somewhat. IxFPs actually do have very strong Fe, but they rarely choose to use it, as it goes directly against their ego. IxFPs have weak Ti, but will still use it extensively to prove something when challenged.

"Do you sometimes hesitate to post something because of how it would be seen (as stupid, for example)? I think nowadays I tend to «expect» other people to answer me a certain way and it's as if I was arguing with myself : initial thought yeah, but there's also this, you're contradicting yourself or people will reply this, if they think about it, of course... yeah, you're right bud"

This sounds very similar to a Ti-Ne thought process, but it could very well be Te. Whereas Ti would try to be correct for the sake of itself while trying to describe their analysis in an Fe way that doesn't come off as insulting or strange, Fi will have an opinion that it will try to express coherently through a Te explanation, and will be discouraged if the explanation is not able to make sense or influence the people that need to be told. For the record, I also have thoughts like this, even with blindspot PoLR Ne, but they are based more on an insecurity of not knowing many possible scenarios, whereas Ne would be insecure based on seeing negative scenarios.

"I also have the impression that when I think about something, I just «throw» ideas I have, ideas that can be totally dumb...but then, when I «check», I realize it's dumb and I think more and more until I find something."

This seems like a combination of Ne and Te. Ne comes up with many surface-level observations/ideas and Te comes up with many surface-level arguments. Because of this, you can come up with many different solutions, but many will fail. The opposite of this would be my thought process, which is Ti and Ni. I cannot for the love of anything come up with enough ideas and arguments to effectively maneuver most new situations. However, when I do come up with something, it will almost never need to be entirely thrown away, and will likely only need minor adjustments.

"Someone ironically says «in 20-30 years, white race will no longer exists». Some black guy says «good news!». Another guy tells him something among the lines of «ur mom is working for me as a cleaning lady lelelel». Some girl starts getting mad at him so I start wondering...why would you be mad at someone because of a slightly racist comment making fun of his mom and cleaning ladies but not at the guy who's happy at the thought of the disappearance of the white race?». Her answer: both answers are racists but the other guy is worse because he makes fun of the guy's mother AND a certain category of jobs. According to her, it doesn't matter if you rejoice about that because «the white race won't disappear, so it's okay». So...it's okay to say the worst things if it's «unrealistic», it's not «going to happen»? I don't know if it's intellectual laziness, but I'm almost tempted to say «yeah, you're right, sorry about that». If you look at things through her lens, there's something real (making fun of a category of people) and something which is not (our upcoming extinction). I think I was «mad» because I saw that as a wish: for us to go extinct. She draws lines. For her, there are the «serious, real things» and the rest «what is not real, humor». This lad was just joking, as he said.
I know I'm more likely to believe in those «conspiracies» due to my years as an alt-right sympathizer but as far as they're concerned, they clearly don't think it's real. If they thought it was real, I think (hope...) she would be a little more shocked. So in the end...if you say one thing absolutely malevolent, if it doesn't have anything to do with reality, even «real» things that seem unimportant in comparison are worse... I absolutely have no point. I wrote this wall of text as I was thinking about it and...I'm concretely just saying «yeah, you're right»...bah, doesn't matter
"

This is an in-depth analysis of feelings and values for actions that I would never even be capable of doing, especially with interest. I definitely think this is Fi. You examine the personal reasons behind people's feelings and thought processes while criticizing their actions, as they seem to contradict their own feelings and interests. I would not be interested in this analysis myself and would instead simply try to change the opinions of these people, regardless of their core perspectives.

"«One of our ministers shouldn't go to the 93» (a department which is...pretty much your typical shithole full of immigrants and drugs that "white rich people" despise and fear). This comes from a muslim. Context: some politicians don't want muslim women to wear their veil during school trips. Some people saw this as a threat. At first, I wanted to «defend» him (even though I don't have any sympathy for him) by saying it was just an advice and not a threat but...the more I think about it, the more I realize I don't even know the definition of «threat». I see threat as something which is rather «active»: «if you do this/don't do this, I'll break you». There is a concrete implication of the person who threatens. As for advice, I would say it's much more «passive»: «oh, if I were you, I wouldn't do this...but hey, whatever, it's your life, not mine». Threats are a «bad thing» : you intimidate someone, you only think about yourself and your interests. While advices seem to be a much more friendly, selfless thing. But if you think about it...when you threaten someone not to do something, for example...in a certain way, it's an advice. You «protect» their integrity by warning them. You put your interests and their integrity on the same level. Is he telling him he will actively assault him if he shows up in this part of our country? No. Is he telling him he shouldn't show up there because some people could beat him? No, but you could understand it that way. If he had influence and told his minions to harass him if he showed up there, you could see this as a threat. But we're not barbarians, are we? So, to sum it up (because it's a mess, I should be more organized and make up my mind: I'm literally writing this as my ideas progressively come to my mind): in my humble opinion, a threat is a threat when you want to prevent someone from doing what they want and you are capable of retaliate if they do it anyway. Example: don't date this girl, or... (I'll shoot you, rape her in front of you, execute you, torture her and finish her...). An advice doesn't have the same intensity and isn't as morally reprehensible. You simply tell someone they should not do something, for this may cause problems to them. You don't intend to harm the person. You just want to give your opinion: it's a bad idea. As a conclusion, no matter how bad you want someone not to do something, if you consider things from an objective point of view («people may beat the crap out of you»/«you will dislike what you will see there») and not a subjective point of view («I will actively kick your ass if you come here, be sure of it»), it's not a threat. Just a mere observation. Now, of course, maybe he just don't want to see him in his «territory» and of course, there's a subjective point of view...but still, it's passive => it's an advice. 4 A.M and I'm tormenting myself (and I will torment you as well) with all this conceptual wank...what am I doing with my life!"

You state many personal interpretations of values based on different perspectives of concrete examples. I think this is an example of an Fi-Ne thought process. Additionally, all of your examples seem to work this way. You state a detailed Si scenario in which there are different Ne perspectives that your Fi values can be viewed from, where you doubt the feasibility of this analysis in the Te real-world system(...what am I doing with my life!).

I don't really think I need to continue... but I will for the sake of it.

"Our president answers an interview given by a «far-right» magazine...apparently it's the first time one of our presidents do that. So now, people think he's licking the arse of the far-right. But at first, there's something that really pisses me off: why couldn't he answer them? He's not trying to get the «far-right» on his side just because he accepts to answer them. With this logic, if one day we have a far-right president (lmao) and he accepts to answer an interview given by a far-left magazine, will the population shout «and now he's befriending the commies!»? No. But even if the principle, the «logic» is dubious...then I think about those people who say he adopts a «far-right» politics when it comes to immigration for example. And then I understand their indignation, I understand why they think «he has a far-right policy and now he's answering their interview!? My fears are justified!». So...my first reaction was «anger» (disappointment? Scepticism? Bah, I don't really know) but when you think about it...it's more than just a bunch of whiners. If people think he has a far-right policy on a certain topic and he decides to tell far-right guys about this very policy, yeah, I can understand why people yell. Now, apparently, what he said was not really something a far-right person would say...so yeah, I think people are just hysterical"

This seems very much to be an Fi view of hysterical Fe behavior. The Fe behavior has a place in functioning society, but does not have a place in the true values of this political issue. You acknowledge that there is no way to avoid this behavior because it is useful for the people involved, but you dismiss it as trivial to your own values.

"Some teacher killed a girl in a pretty atrocious way. The school «belongs» to a far-right politician so now people start to condemn far-right: «look! This is the far-right! Do you want our country to be governed by people who are friends with this kind of criminals?» Looks pretty stupid to me: looks like they're blaming the politician because she gave him the job...as if she could know the guy was a future murderer. Make generalizations? Sounds dumb, it's just one of them...but saying this makes me a fucking hypocrite, considering how my «side» just does the same. Discredict a whole movement/religion because of a minority of extremists or criminals is pretty stupid, it's true but...no wonder you do that when you see the ideas spread by far-right movements or religions (I'll be honest there, I'm thinking of Islam). Makes more sense than to shit on Walmart or Ikea because of one of their employees, let's say. Now a religion or a political movement...those things have ideologies. If you kill someone and use your religion as an excuse when it's just you who want to commit a crime, it can be quite a dick move, yeah...but then, if your action can be explained by some things your prophet said... Oh, I also saw someone say this «far-right» school was meant to radicalize students...problem is if they enter this school, they probably already belong to the far-right and therefore already radicalized :>"

As with the above scenario, you analyze the values and behavior of the public and criticize their actions for being illogical for the values that they hold. There is also analysis of their reasoning and deconstruction of fallacies and inaccuracies in their situational arguments, but it is used to serve your interpretation of their values to prove that they are not being true to what they value anyway.

"Turks telling us we shouldn't criticize them because we colonized the world and committed slaughters...why should we not criticize other peoples when we did something «wrong» (the important word being DID)? If your dad was a killer, does it mean you can't shit on killers? Now, I guess they refer to the «fact» we still «exploit» Africa, so we're not all goodies, but still."

This could be either a Ti or an Fi argument. It could be defending Fi identity because the accusation of your values was not true or it could be Ti criticizing an Ad Hominem argument.

"Nowadays, I think more (maybe too much, it's probably why I hesitate so much and don't send a lot of messages) about what I want to say and find contradictions. Perhaps I don't want to be contradicted or seen as a dumbass..."

This could be Ti or Fi as well. This is common in IxxPs, as they may be confident in their own capabilities of analysis but not their capabilities to continually justify their explanations to other people.

"I can be fairly disagreeable when something or someone bothers me. When people tell me I don't smile and look pissed off, I can be quite cold and clearly annoyed. Sometimes, my mother tells me I become «aggressive» (to be fair, it's more like bitchy «ugh, I don't want to talk, you told me enough things, no need to continue the discussion» moments). I'm «aware» of those moments and sometimes tell myself «shit, I said it in a pretty grumpy way»."

This seems like Fi not wanting to have to modify their outward appearance for the sake of someone else, as they still have the feeling and they want to analyze it. Ti will do the same with arguments and will not care whether their argument is irrelevant or not. When confronted with the inferior function however, the person, if in a healthy mindset, will normally acknowledge their weakness and try to adjust. An Fi dom will try to lessen the burden of them being in the way of goals and a Ti dom will try to lessen the burden of them being in the way of another person's feelings.

"Even if I'm «able» to understand the point of view of other people (I guess) and think it's not «that» dumb, I rarely change my opinion, even when I know I'm in the wrong. As if I just wanted to keep shitting on other people for the sake of it."

If you are an IxFP, your identity hinges on your values and opinions. If you don't shit on other people when you think they're wrong, you won't be able to function as yourself :p. If you know you're in the wrong, then I think you probably either want to slowly ease into the change or you're only in the wrong according to other people, as your opinion is actually what defines wrongness for you and conforming to other people would be inauthentic, regardless of whether they have a point or not.

"About my reluctance to talk about my feelings, I have to wonder why I don't talk about them. I let people know about it online (I talk about my problems and the way I feel about some things as if sharing those stories helped me dealing with frustration, disappointment or weird situations that put a smile on my face while I'm also confused or hurt at the same time) but otherwise, I'm so reserved the only things that could let other people know I feel bad are some grunts, deep breaths, angry/sad/annoyed looks. I don't think it's because I don't want to «ruin the mood» (Fe?) or because my feelings are 2deep4u (Fi?), I think it's simply because I know how to deal with them (aka I know how to wait and quickly forget about my problems."

I think that for an IxFP, sharing their feelings is sharing a personal problem that is not meant to be dealt with by other people and is for the most part meant to be felt and not pushed away. Involving another person in your feelings would be involving them in your decision-making process and would mean that they have personal insight into your identity, which you would need to update them on if it was changed. Also, those small grunts, deep breaths, and angry/sad/annoyed looks are quite enough information for a lot of people to understand your general feeling in the moment. It doesn't usually require a deep analysis of your psyche or a verbal declaration to know that you look pissed. In particular, I'd think that Fe-Se especially would be able to take in those details and get a quick understanding of a few possible moods that you could be in.

"I feel like I don't understand things very quickly and I'm a little «slow». I also think I don't understand all the things that are subtly implied. Since that dumb habit I have to think T types are geniuses who must absolutely understand everything, I spend too much time thinking about things that I don't understand easily enough. It can happen a lot. In this case, I end up «drawing my own conclusion» and stop when I find it satisfying."

This sounds like insecurity about the thinking functions. A lot of the time "subtle implications" are actually just logical conclusions, not additional observations or the result of a faster thought process. Thinking doms have the same issue with trying to understand feelings. When I try to analyze feelings in depth, it ends up becoming entirely Ti or entirely shallow. There's no way for me to just feel my emotions stronger or anything. I just have to deal with it. I imagine it's similar for feeling doms in regards to thinking.

"I think I have a problem. I watched a Super Mario 64 video where some guy kills that annoying penguin and I told myself «shit, poor penguin, could I even do that?». Or when I hesitate to declare war to a country that appreciates mine in Europa Universalis IV. Would thinkers even care about that? Since when do I even do that? I know I can be sensitive but that's just ridiculous."

I have to actively choose to care about things like that most of the time, but when I do, it adds to the experience of the game and adds a layer of depth and challenge, as well as a feeling of actual humanity in-game. I love EU4 btw.

"Went to the supermarket, bough a beer and gloves. I ended up buying food to a hobo who talked to me (and yes, I decided to leave when he approached me), I don't really know why. To feel at peace with myself? To make him happy? Because of the alcohol in my veins? I don't know but when I told my dad, he told me I should not give food to hobos since we don't even know if they try to find a job. When I got home, I realized the gloves were too small, got really pissed, bit the box and angrily threw it in the trash. This good deed as well as my response to this plan that clearly wasn't planned well enough...does it say anything about me...in a mbti way?"

You mentioning that you don't know why you gave the food strikes me as Fi questioning whether its intent is real or not. When I ask this question, I always land on the conclusion that I did it to feel better about myself, regardless of what my brain makes me want to feel. This fact does not make the action invalid though, it's just the observation that we're all flesh robots. You biting the box and throwing away the gloves doesn't say much about MBTI, as any type would do this under different circumstances. The difference is just at what point a type would decide to give in or at what point a type would be affected by their circumstances to be angry enough to do this.

"I don't really know what it says about me, but sometimes, when I play some games, I can become very angry and enraged, when we're not good enough. As if I take it a little too seriously or personally and being great at games was the only way I found to prove my worth. In this regard, even if I don't shit on my teammates or «enemies», I still get very mad, blaming my teammates, thinking «come on, we can't lose against those idiots». When I see someone play my «main» better than me, I usually get mad. Again, I only insult those who insult me. And when people criticize me, it's as if, at first, I didn't take it that bad, but only then, after a few minutes, I started to think about it too much and got pissed. I usually don't leave but I have to admit that one day, I got offended and left the game. Strangely enough, I could still see their messages and of course, everyone was shitting on me (even the enemy team, which makes sense: finding games can take quite a while). So...maybe I'm a little sensitive, sometimes."

Your response seems based on anger when you personally cannot become good at certain Te skills even though you are sure of your desire and deservedness for them. It could also be anger directed toward yourself for not being able to acquire a certain desire fairly by yourself.

"I avoid videos from people I don't like (in order to...avoid negative feelings, frustration, I suppose). I sometimes wonder if I could even do things such as "liking" posts from communities I don't appreciate (TeamPB from 2021 speaking here: yeah, of course I could do that), even if I find their comments funny or watch a T.V show if it tells us about crimes that target minorities. As if I didn't want to feel bad or something. I don't know if this is a remnant of my edgy alt-right phase but I assume people would think this is ridiculous and I won't blame them for this. This also reminds me of this «fear»: responses people can give me. Maybe this is why I'm «intimidated» by some T forums on the website, for example (answers that won't please me, telling me I'm some feeler)."

This sounds like Fi avoiding feelings that aren't desired or committing actions that show inauthenticity of values. I also generally avoid video like these, but I do not immediately decide not to watch them. Instead, I watch them for a while and realize that they aren't going anywhere for me. Your fear of being told "real" answers is also likely Fi, as it conflicts with your values and identity to tell you that your values are not worth your effort.

"There are those cases where I wouldn't want to return to a job if I don't feel as «ready» as I was before. That job at a supermarket, for example (sent my CV 5 days ago, they don't seem to care), go to vote (after making a fool of myself) or to a store if I think sellers think I'm an ugly idiot (not giving a good first impression, what a shame). It's as if I had to be brave enough to do something. As if I'm confident about something Monday, but then Tuesday, when I'm supposed to do it again, I've lost my interest, motivation or «bravery»."

This seems like unbalanced Te. If you struggle to consistently balance your effect on systems in the world, you won't feel confident except when you are especially motivated.

"That's funny, people either think I have a good Ti (dom or aux)...or they just can't see it at all (and assume I'm Fi dom/aux). So that's why I'm think in any case, I'm just P. That gives me 8 possible combinations...but it's better than nothing."

I think you use Fi, but you occasionally use Ti logic to prove to yourself and others that you are able to handle yourself and that your opinions aren't nonsense.

"I read somewhere Fe is quite concerned with the social world around them, but don't know a lot about it and are, well, not really into emotions. I don't really know if I want to have friends and connect to other people. Deep down, even if I'm (in my opinion), an introverted person, I know I have to live with other people. Do I «crave» for it? That's the problem: I spend a lot of time alone and I can't even tell if I like it or not. Would I prefer it if I was more frequently surrounded by other people? Tough question. I could adapt to it, I suppose. They say Fe inferior is afraid to be seen as weird, awkward by other people, to be that «socially awkward guy who doesn't know how to interract with other people». I don't know if this is my fear, but I indeed, am not the most skilled person when it comes to social interractions: lack of eye contact (I will have to work on it, pretty hard when you assume people will think you're ugly and you would rather put a mask on your face for the rest of your life), bad conversationalist (I genuinely don't know what to talk about with other people. I'm not into sport, not into intellectual stuff..."

This seems like Fi being uncomfortable expressing their feelings in a fake way. Fe inferior usually manifests in ignorance or insecurity of social situations, not lack of ability to do things such as eye contact or talking about interests. I would ask whether you think you are insecure about your social presence or if you just feel that it's not natural for you to care about.

"I don't really know how to greet other people (when I take the time to greet them, that is: when I started my first job, I was quite shy and didn't really want to greet my coworkers, so one of them got upset and scolded me in front of everyone...there's also that one time I had to kiss a girl I know on the cheek but she told me I had a weird way to kiss people: I literally kiss people on the cheek. It's probably what makes sense to me, but I supposed you don't have to do that...then I read that you can actually kiss people ON the cheek...or just touch their cheek with yours and make a kiss noise. Two choices. And if you don't do them the «good way», some assertive people will lightly make fun of you. That's why I avoid people). I'm a pretty awkward lad. When I think about a lot of things I said, I can only smile and say ''thanks god, it's part of the past''. For example, that one time I told something to my crush (there's something that annoys me with this expression...maybe because I saw some people admit they didn't like this term) that was pretty crude or that one time I laughed at one of my shitty jokes so bad that some of my classmates laughed as well."

Once again, this seems more like Fi trying to navigate a foreign way to interpret feelings, rather than low Fe. low Fe manifests by worrying the user that they may come off in a way that they can't control and will have to abandon any efforts toward Fe. I think the way you described this situation was that you don't know how to act "normal" and how to express yourself without coming off as strange. While Fe has those insecurities, they are insecurities of stress. I think your insecurities when it comes to social behavior are more like insecurities of identity rather than inability. The other poster mentioned that it could be a sign of autism spectrum disorder, which would make sense.

"There's also this side of the descriptions that seem to make Fi users look quite irrational: even if everything seems to indicate that A = A or that you should do something you don't want to do, you will just blindly, impulsively «follow your heart» and disregard Te, even if it's «the thing to do». As far as I'm concerned, I'm able to recognize it when something is wrong (even if yes, I end up still «believing in it»), it's hard to refute some facts and reasonings. Now when it comes to what Fi is (about...75% about?) : morality, what I think is «right» and «wrong», it's true sometimes, I tend to think «this sucks, I could never do that», I don't know if I should see that as Fi. Let's say I tend to «judge actions», would I do something I judge wrong if it was a good thing for me, in the end? Stealing, cheating, lying, killing... If a high Fi user would say «I don't think so, it would make me feel horrible...» and a high Te user «definitely, as long as it helps me with my objectives», I think I'm leaning towards the high Fi side...godamnit, why would telling some lies even bother me, it's not like I kill or rape someone? And why do I make high Te users look like cold-blooded psychos who would break your legs and lend you to old vicious perverts who will rape you multiple times and let you starve to death in a cave, just for money?"

This sounds like Fi because it focuses on your personal morality and how you feel when you go against your values. Fe would be more focused on how others would feel if you went against their values or your perception of their possible values.

By the way, you don't sound very whiny to me. I think all of your explanations have a good expression of your feelings.
heh, so you change your opinion here?
guess I can't change much

"This is an in-depth analysis of feelings and values for actions that I would never even be capable of doing, especially with interest. I definitely think this is Fi. You examine the personal reasons behind people's feelings and thought processes while criticizing their actions, as they seem to contradict their own feelings and interests"
heh, I admit it, I was being a little judgemental here but...is examining the reasons behind people's feelings/criticizing people and their reasoning, especially if it seems inconsistent to you Fi?

"then you add that you can not see how anyone would want to go against the Te mold just in order to also go against one of your Fi values"
My values? I mean yeah, sure, I disagree with him, but I'm really just attacking this guy's arguments here.

"Involving another person in your feelings would be involving them in your decision-making process and would mean that they have personal insight into your identity"
Never thought about that. It's true I keep to myself but I don't think I ever thought (consciously) "I don't want to 'let them in' "!, I simply deal with my problems and negative feelings alone.

"As with the above scenario, you analyze the values and behavior of the public and criticize their actions for being illogical for the values that they hold. There is also analysis of their reasoning and deconstruction of fallacies and inaccuracies in their situational arguments, but it is used to serve your interpretation of their values to prove that they are not being true to what they value anyway"

So...me exposing their hypocrisy? Is that some Fi thing?

"I think you use Fi, but you occasionally use Ti logic to prove to yourself and others that you are able to handle yourself and that your opinions aren't nonsense"
Is it possible I come across as more "Ti-sh" than ExFJs (my arguments, logic...) due to IxFPs' less antagonistic view of Ti (compared to Te)? And wouldn't that work with other functions as well (ENxPs being more comfortable with Se, "using it" more than Si because of disdain or insecurities)?

"This sounds like Fi avoiding feelings that aren't desired"
Is that a Fi thing and not just a F thing in general? Or is it because Fi is more in touch with its feelings...? Also, I have to admit: I think I'm afraid of being wrong and others pointing it out and this may be why I tend not to tell things...is that insecure Te (or even Ti, even if I suppose you think I'm more of a Te user)?

"You mentioning that you don't know why you gave the food strikes me as Fi questioning whether its intent is real or not. When I ask this question, I always land on the conclusion that I did it to feel better about myself"
(re)thinking about it...yeah, I think I just wanted to feel good about myself, "do a good deed" and make someone happy.

"Your response seems based on anger when you personally cannot become good at certain Te skills even though you are sure of your desire and deservedness for them. It could also be anger directed toward yourself for not being able to acquire a certain desire fairly by yourself"
I guess I was just mad at myself for not being good enough at this game (and possibly my team as well? it can be hard to determine it when you're angry: maybe YOU are bad, your team is not particularly good but they're still better at doing the job than you)...but anger is almost always at the expense of others...or at least, it's a possibility. That's why you either trashtalk other people (either aggressively or passively) or have this reflex, this (more than welcome) reaction to anger: "okay, keep it to yourself, don't be disagreeable, don't be rude to others, don't hurt their feelings, don't kill the mood etc..."

"This seems very much to be an Fi view of hysterical Fe behavior"
?

"This seems like Fi not wanting to have to modify their outward appearance for the sake of someone else, as they still have the feeling and they want to analyze it"
heh, I'm not sure I analyze my feelings...maybe? maybe it's actually so frequent, so "conscious" it ends up being seen as something done "unconsciously"? bah, I don't know, I'm still unsure.

"Fe inferior usually manifests in ignorance or insecurity of social situations"
heh, I wouldn't exclude the possibility this happens to me...I was never totally secure, confident in social situations, maybe this is Ne being a pessimistic piece of shit: "you'll fail, they'll tell you to GTFO"


Is analyzing others' feelings (if I got it right) some Fi thing? when you focus on their feeling and expect some consistency?
 

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heh, so you change your opinion here?
guess I can't change much

"This is an in-depth analysis of feelings and values for actions that I would never even be capable of doing, especially with interest. I definitely think this is Fi. You examine the personal reasons behind people's feelings and thought processes while criticizing their actions, as they seem to contradict their own feelings and interests"
heh, I admit it, I was being a little judgemental here but...is examining the reasons behind people's feelings/criticizing people and their reasoning, especially if it seems inconsistent to you Fi?

"then you add that you can not see how anyone would want to go against the Te mold just in order to also go against one of your Fi values"
My values? I mean yeah, sure, I disagree with him, but I'm really just attacking this guy's arguments here.

"Involving another person in your feelings would be involving them in your decision-making process and would mean that they have personal insight into your identity"
Never thought about that. It's true I keep to myself but I don't think I ever thought (consciously) "I don't want to 'let them in' "!, I simply deal with my problems and negative feelings alone.

"As with the above scenario, you analyze the values and behavior of the public and criticize their actions for being illogical for the values that they hold. There is also analysis of their reasoning and deconstruction of fallacies and inaccuracies in their situational arguments, but it is used to serve your interpretation of their values to prove that they are not being true to what they value anyway"
So...me exposing their hypocrisy? Is that some Fi thing?

"I think you use Fi, but you occasionally use Ti logic to prove to yourself and others that you are able to handle yourself and that your opinions aren't nonsense"
Is it possible I come across as more "Ti-sh" than ExFJs (my arguments, logic...) due to IxFPs' less antagonistic view of Ti (compared to Te)? And wouldn't that work with other functions as well (ENxPs being more comfortable with Se, "using it" more than Si because of disdain or insecurities)?

"This sounds like Fi avoiding feelings that aren't desired"
Is that a Fi thing and not just a F thing in general? Or is it because Fi is more in touch with its feelings...? Also, I have to admit: I think I'm afraid of being wrong and others pointing it out and this may be why I tend not to tell things...is that insecure Te (or even Ti, even if I suppose you think I'm more of a Te user)?

"You mentioning that you don't know why you gave the food strikes me as Fi questioning whether its intent is real or not. When I ask this question, I always land on the conclusion that I did it to feel better about myself"
(re)thinking about it...yeah, I think I just wanted to feel good about myself, "do a good deed" and make someone happy.

"Your response seems based on anger when you personally cannot become good at certain Te skills even though you are sure of your desire and deservedness for them. It could also be anger directed toward yourself for not being able to acquire a certain desire fairly by yourself"
I guess I was just mad at myself for not being good enough at this game (and possibly my team as well? it can be hard to determine it when you're angry: maybe YOU are bad, your team is not particularly good but they're still better at doing the job than you)...but anger is almost always at the expense of others...or at least, it's a possibility. That's why you either trashtalk other people (either aggressively or passively) or have this reflex, this (more than welcome) reaction to anger: "okay, keep it to yourself, don't be disagreeable, don't be rude to others, don't hurt their feelings, don't kill the mood etc..."

"This seems very much to be an Fi view of hysterical Fe behavior"
?

"This seems like Fi not wanting to have to modify their outward appearance for the sake of someone else, as they still have the feeling and they want to analyze it"
heh, I'm not sure I analyze my feelings...maybe? maybe it's actually so frequent, so "conscious" it ends up being seen as something done "unconsciously"? bah, I don't know, I'm still unsure.

"Fe inferior usually manifests in ignorance or insecurity of social situations"
heh, I wouldn't exclude the possibility this happens to me...I was never totally secure, confident in social situations, maybe this is Ne being a pessimistic piece of shit: "you'll fail, they'll tell you to GTFO"


Is analyzing others' feelings (if I got it right) some Fi thing? when you focus on their feeling and expect some consistency?
I didn't see the additional questions because it didn't notify me of an edit.

Honestly, I don't think answering these questions will lead to anything helpful to determining your type, as it would require additional information and focusing on just one aspect would make it less accurate every time it's added to.

The more I look back at the completely contradictory conclusions that I've come to about your type, the less I trust any of them. You remind me of an ENTP I know, but some of the ways you analyze things reminds me of Fi. I'm starting to think that it's just feeling in general and not Fi. This doesn't necessarily mean that you're a feeler though, as it could just be how you use your feeling, regardless of preference. There's a system (Objective Personality) that divides the original 16 types into 512 total types. In the system, there's an addition to the functions; Masculine vs. Feminine functions. What I think I may be seeing is just masculine Fe that I've been misinterpreting as Fi.

The difference between masculine and feminine functions is supposedly just how "pushy" they are. A masculine function is confident, pushy, absolute, and sure of itself to the user. A feminine function is maneuverable, less sure of itself, less manipulative, and more adaptable when it fails.

I have masculine Ti and masculine Se. This means that I consciously manipulate my logic and sensory surroundings and push with them to get things done. I never really doubt my logic, only my information. This is compounded by my function order as well.
I have feminine Ni and Feminine Fe. This means that I sort of let ideas come to me naturally, rather than manipulating them, and I am rarely able to control, understand, or analyze my feelings without using logic to understand them.

If you are an ENTP with masculine Fe, you might prefer Ti over Fe, but still push with Fe and analyze your feelings as they are. Additionally, the Fe stereotype tends to be from ExFJs with feminine Fe who try to passively change the feelings of people (think of the xSFJ sterotype of baking cookies for everyone). Masculine Fe would seem more like the Te or Fi stereotype, as it's pushy with feelings like the Fi stereotype and it demands control over people like the Te stereotype (not in a selfish way of course).

If you prefer feminine Ti, it may mean that you still want to analyze what you see with a Ti process, but that you don't naturally focus in on or push as hard on individual reasons, like a masculine Ti type would.

I don't know which type you are. I think you might have masculine feeling though, and I think you are Ne-Si. You said that you're introverted, right? How "introverted" are you? Do you have friends that you interact with frequently? Do you go out often? Introversion only exists in relation to extroversion, and it's possible that you are a sort of introverted/introspective person while still being led by an extroverted cognitive function. Objective Personality also adds in another aspect of personality called the "animals"; Sleep, Play, Consume, and Blast. Sleep is using both introverted functions. Play is using both extroverted functions. Consume is using an extroverted perceiving function with an introverted judging function. Blast is using an introverted perceiving function with an extroverted judging function. Based on your preference for the animals, you will be more or less introverted/extroverted. The most introverted types are SC/B(P). The most extroverted types are PB/C(S)


Template questions:

Are you afraid of your own thoughts?

Do you get frustrated by physical annoyances frequently? Do you feel attached to your belongings? How would you feel if something you care about broke?

Do you feel a strong drive to change the world?

Do you feel that testing an idea out is more important than continuous research?


I apologize if this is just confusing.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
I didn't see the additional questions because it didn't notify me of an edit.

Honestly, I don't think answering these questions will lead to anything helpful to determining your type, as it would require additional information and focusing on just one aspect would make it less accurate every time it's added to.

The more I look back at the completely contradictory conclusions that I've come to about your type, the less I trust any of them. You remind me of an ENTP I know, but some of the ways you analyze things reminds me of Fi. I'm starting to think that it's just feeling in general and not Fi. This doesn't necessarily mean that you're a feeler though, as it could just be how you use your feeling, regardless of preference. There's a system (Objective Personality) that divides the original 16 types into 512 total types. In the system, there's an addition to the functions; Masculine vs. Feminine functions. What I think I may be seeing is just masculine Fe that I've been misinterpreting as Fi.

The difference between masculine and feminine functions is supposedly just how "pushy" they are. A masculine function is confident, pushy, absolute, and sure of itself to the user. A feminine function is maneuverable, less sure of itself, less manipulative, and more adaptable when it fails.

I have masculine Ti and masculine Se. This means that I consciously manipulate my logic and sensory surroundings and push with them to get things done. I never really doubt my logic, only my information. This is compounded by my function order as well.
I have feminine Ni and Feminine Fe. This means that I sort of let ideas come to me naturally, rather than manipulating them, and I am rarely able to control, understand, or analyze my feelings without using logic to understand them.

If you are an ENTP with masculine Fe, you might prefer Ti over Fe, but still push with Fe and analyze your feelings as they are. Additionally, the Fe stereotype tends to be from ExFJs with feminine Fe who try to passively change the feelings of people (think of the xSFJ sterotype of baking cookies for everyone). Masculine Fe would seem more like the Te or Fi stereotype, as it's pushy with feelings like the Fi stereotype and it demands control over people like the Te stereotype (not in a selfish way of course).

If you prefer feminine Ti, it may mean that you still want to analyze what you see with a Ti process, but that you don't naturally focus in on or push as hard on individual reasons, like a masculine Ti type would.

I don't know which type you are. I think you might have masculine feeling though, and I think you are Ne-Si. You said that you're introverted, right? How "introverted" are you? Do you have friends that you interact with frequently? Do you go out often? Introversion only exists in relation to extroversion, and it's possible that you are a sort of introverted/introspective person while still being led by an extroverted cognitive function. Objective Personality also adds in another aspect of personality called the "animals"; Sleep, Play, Consume, and Blast. Sleep is using both introverted functions. Play is using both extroverted functions. Consume is using an extroverted perceiving function with an introverted judging function. Blast is using an introverted perceiving function with an extroverted judging function. Based on your preference for the animals, you will be more or less introverted/extroverted. The most introverted types are SC/B(P). The most extroverted types are PB/C(S)


Template questions:

Are you afraid of your own thoughts?

Do you get frustrated by physical annoyances frequently? Do you feel attached to your belongings? How would you feel if something you care about broke?

Do you feel a strong drive to change the world?

Do you feel that testing an idea out is more important than continuous research?


I apologize if this is just confusing.
Oh thanks for the answer.

"You remind me of an ENTP I know"
heh, how come?

"but some of the ways you analyze things reminds me of Fi"
I still don't really know why you think the way I analyze things is Fi-sh. tbh I think I focus a lot on others' logic when I want to criticize what they have to say. Pointing out their hypocrisy or ideological inconsistencies is just one aspect of it. There are other sides to it, for example...simply criticizing the logic in terms of "you forget this", "it may be true, BUT...", "this is irrelevant to the point, the problem, the main reproach addressed", "this makes no sense, why would this happen"
I'm not sure I really understood what you said (mainly the "You state many personal interpretations of values based on different perspectives of concrete examples. I think this is an example of an Fi-Ne thought process. Additionally, all of your examples seem to work this way. You state a detailed Si scenario in which there are different Ne perspectives that your Fi values can be viewed from" / "You examine the personal reasons behind people's feelings and thought processes while criticizing their actions, as they seem to contradict their own feelings and interests" / "Once again, this seems more like Fi trying to navigate a foreign way to interpret feelings"

I don't know if this is Ti (or even if this is something I "normally" do or something I do on purpose to act like a Ti user: remember when I said I tend to look at others' messages? I think I associate this with Te but since, to be honest, I think Ti is cooler, I try to "use it more") but when I see a message, I tend to look away from my cellphone and determine if it makes sense to me...if it makes sense to me but I see there are message that certainly contradict the view of the person I agree with...I just read their reply to see if I can "learn more", if it can provides another viewpoint.

"and I think you are Ne-Si"

I think at this point, it's the only certainty here (look at me, shitting on people who're so sure, confident with what they say, only to say it's a certainty I'm on the Ne-Si axis...)

"How "introverted" are you? Do you have friends that you interact with frequently? Do you go out often?"
I was always described as one and I think I ended up "buying it". Maybe the "real life introversion" is different from mbti's...
I'm mostly described as an introverted person because I'm always alone, I've always been veryshy, even when I was an hyperactive kid, it was never easy to ask others if I could play with them. It's pretty simple: all the friends I ever made...it was them who starting talking to me, I don't think I ever started it. Despite it, I don't really know if this can be linked to mbti but I remember I really craved others' attention and sympathy. When people congratulated me whenever I gave good answers in class, when I was a dick to another kid and it made other kids laugh, when I did good shit while we were playing soccer...it really made my days. My mom had friends. My dad had friends, it's true I can hardly stand him but he seems to be popular with others and he's pretty funny, my older sister had a lot of friends and there was me, "that kid"...it's weird but when I finally felt like I was accepted, liked by other kids, I thought "man...you're just like the other members of your family, now, you just joined the cool guys' club!" and I was proud. I suppose I just craved for a certain sense of belonging, maybe this is some desperate Fe...or just the joy of a random kid who was never really popular and finally had his "revenge". After elementary school (yeah, it was elementary school), things just got worse. You know how it is. Kids meet each others, start forming groups and the ones who don't join a wolf pack become lone wolves. They either become that stereotypically cool ISTP loner people deem as mysterious, charming, cool...or that gross, creepy, fatty/skinny outcast no one really cares about. I belonged to the latter (I suppose it was funnier that way). Took a while before some guys approached me. Two guys. At first, I had a stick up my ass, I was prudish, a true puritan. Fuckers perverted me and at the end of secondary school, I couldn't help but to joke about sex. Next, high school, nothing too special. Again, I didn't do the first move: the whole first year, others never really talked to me, even if most of them were rather friendly towards me. During the two last years, however...even if I was still "shy" and distant, I finally started feeling accepted, thanks to my new classmates. They were a good audience, my buffooneries were quite popular, in my memories, even if sometimes, it was just plain cringe (I still remember "in the word communiquer, there is...?" => "...niquer (to fuck)?" INTENSE LAUGHTER (but only from me...and maybe two other people amused by my hysterical laughter) and my behavior was sometimes so "weird" and "inappropriate" they once removed me from the class' messenger group (it truly affected me, for some reason: "is it over? do they hate me? do they think I'm weird or gross? what do they think about me?"...I quickly moved on but it was a major disappointment.

tl;dr (yeah, sorry, I guess all of it wasn't necessary but it feels good to talk about your life, sometimes...also, come on, you share all INFJs' functions and they're known to be particularly attentive psychologists, just be like 'em for a change!): because I'm fucking shy, reserved, distant and I never seem to seek interaction with others (except online, to a certain extent), even if I sure like to know I'm appreciated and I "integrated well"

Funnily enough, Ne is generally the first thing people who are into mbti notice in me (...online, at least), and I read that Ne-doms are known to be the most introverted extraverts, so... it could fit well, I guess?

"Are you afraid of your own thoughts?"
Maybe? Maybe that's why I'm so indecisive and "seek" others' opinion: fear of being incorrect?

"Do you get frustrated by physical annoyances frequently?"
That's vague. Physical annoyances? being easily hurt "physically" (because of clumsiness)? Yeah, I can be pretty clumsy, but tbh, it kinda amuses me sometimes (getting cut when I shave, I suppose it makes me feel like a badass, hehe). Sometimes, it's more "subtle" (trying to go upstairs/downstairs and having some sort of desynchronization if there's no light, as if I was "lost" in the stairs and my body wasn't sure what step I should take, kinda hard to explain, especially considering English isn't my mother tongue). Apart from that? I don't think I check the "forgets to eat/sleep" boxes that are stereotypically linked to intuitives (well, at least inferior Se/low-inferior Si users): I'm pretty aware of what my body needs and for example, if I decide to not sleep at all, it's not because "oh wow, ADHD is so cool, I'm having so much fun, I'm totally not aware my body needs rest!", just because I intentionally decide to stay awake).

"Do you feel attached to your belongings?"
tbh yeah, a few months ago, I noticed something ridiculous: buying a newspapers and not "being able" to just throw it in the trash can once I realized I wasn't actually interested (I thought it was another one: pretty close title). I figured it could be some internal Fi moral... Now, I don't know if I'd do that. A newspaper is just a goddamn newspaper, it sucks to pay for something and throw it right afterwards, but c'est la vie, a normal, sane person wouldn't even bother with such thoughts. But in general, I think I'm more of a hoarder: I never throw shit (even if I quickly move on if I do it: feeling a little bad? heh, maybe. Thinking about it for more than 2 minutes? Let's be serious).

"How would you feel if something you care about broke?"
It depends on what kind of object it is, of course. I'd be really pissed, but I'd think "time to buy it again"

"Do you feel a strong drive to change the world?"
nah, it's true I sometimes have some wet dreams about the army, Napoléon, explorers, conquistadors (yeah, yeah, they were a bunch of racists, no good bullies etc etc but damn, it's so exciting to just explore a whole new continent, fight people, invade lands, become rich, live great adventures...), in comparison, 21st century is just bland: be born, go to school, have a job (or not, heh), have fun, maybe have sex, have a family, retire, die... I sometimes think about space exploration, colonization, but I'm realistic: even if it was available for us and I wasn't "too old", I don't think I would be fit to go to space.

"Do you feel that testing an idea out is more important than continuous research?"
I'm not sure I understand. Being more interested in testing than just doing research (as in searching for things on the internet, in books etc...)? I don't know. I almost never do research, I guess it's not exciting enough for me (ADD/ADHD? probably, someone could put a gun against my head and tell me to read a book to find the answer to some shitty riddle and I'd impatiently look away after 10 seconds), so maybe the first choice, testing an idea out. If I were to answer objectively...I think both are equally important. Ideally, you'd do research to make sure you know enough about something/have a "mentally clear" idea of something but then you should "try it out" instead of just keeping it in your head...
 

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I don't think asking people opinion in regard to feelings and logical thoughts are considered as doubtful of oneself's or an act of insecurity, it depends on the individual. I know a handful INTJs who constantly ask for my opinion in nearly all aspect even when they are driven by logic, very independent and smart enough to think by their own.

Personally, I ask opinion when I want reaffirmation just because it feels good or to check out more possibilities. I'm highly confident in my decision but more perspective won't hurt. Besides, some people are very creative and able to solve problems through unique approach so I'd like to see and put that on my list if I've more time to consider. The more output you have the more accurate decision you can make and you have to admit, you don't know everything.

I don't think I'm highly logical person, but perhaps smarter than average people I know. I have met several ESTJs who sacrifice efficiency and effective method for the sake of "tradition" which I consider to be not a smart move. I also know few ENTJs behaving abrasively to point of making a lots enemy that slows down their goal, which again isn't a smart move. But perhaps to them, it's a smart move. So I'm not exactly bothered if people disagree with how I make decision as long I know there's high % of success without sacrificing my values.

All in all, I'm very confident in my logical thoughts. There are times when I'm wrong or not using accurate vocabulary but I usually deem it as minor mistake, not enough to make me feel bad about myself (who is perfect?) . As of "right", I think its a subjective matter. You'll decide what is right for you and others can only offer their perspective, not the opposite.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I don't think asking people opinion in regard to feelings and logical thoughts are considered as doubtful of oneself's or an act of insecurity, it depends on the individual. I know a handful INTJs who constantly ask for my opinion in nearly all aspect even when they are driven by logic, very independent and smart enough to think by their own.

Personally, I ask opinion when I want reaffirmation just because it feels good or to check out more possibilities. I'm highly confident in my decision but more perspective won't hurt. Besides, some people are very creative and able to solve problems through unique approach so I'd like to see and put that on my list if I've more time to consider. The more output you have the more accurate decision you can make and you have to admit, you don't know everything.

I don't think I'm highly logical person, but perhaps smarter than average people I know. I have met several ESTJs who sacrifice efficiency and effective method for the sake of "tradition" which I consider to be not a smart move. I also know few ENTJs behaving abrasively to point of making a lots enemy that slows down their goal, which again isn't a smart move. But perhaps to them, it's a smart move. So I'm not exactly bothered if people disagree with how I make decision as long I know there's high % of success without sacrificing my values.

All in all, I'm very confident in my logical thoughts. There are times when I'm wrong or not using accurate vocabulary but I usually deem it as minor mistake, not enough to make me feel bad about myself (who is perfect?) . As of "right", I think its a subjective matter. You'll decide what is right for you and others can only offer their perspective, not the opposite.
I see. Thanks for the reply! That was cool to finally see another ENFJ.
Yeah, I'd expect xSTJs to be a little too obsessed with traditions and rules. Ideally, you gotta be confident about your reasonings, your logic...without being overconfident. There's always "room for improvement", especially when it comes to reasonings or definitions of concepts, for example. To reject others' opinion even if they can be helpful is foolish.


btw, I have to admit I didn't make this thread just because I was curious, I made this thread because I determined it could help me in my typing...and it seems like it's now a "type me" thread. Could you tell me your opinion (okay, now I am indeed asking for someone else's opinion :ROFLMAO:) as to what judging function you think I use? If you have some time (I think the wall of text they call "32th message" will be interesting...) and it doesn't bother you, of course.
 
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