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Okay, so I'm your classic ENFJ and test out as ENFJ over and over. I teach for a living and have worked for non-profits. I listen and empathize. I'm the one who does the lion's share of cleaning in my house, etc.

But I have a problem. I grew up in an emotionally abusive home and am recovering from Type II Trauma, the more pervasive form of PTSD. As a child, I perceived emotional attacks as life-threatening. Those life threats got recorded in the trauma center of my brain, the amygdala. Now when I'm in similar situations, the amygdala, which houses the flight, fight, or freeze response, kicks in. Hormones kick in and I freeze, flee, or fight.

Anyway, I have this other problem in that I have trouble recognizing Takers. I just think that everyone is nice and good. And when someone has a nice demeanor and does something altruistic for a living I assume that they are like me.

So, I had this friend who we'll call Patience. We became best friends. Patience works with special needs kids, and she has a nice demeanor. She is not at all a horrible person. She has done good things. And I thought she was like me.

Anyway, I listen to her for hours on end as she goes on about boyfriend troubles, work troubles, etc. I provide empathy and gentle advice. Every third conversation or so, we get to my stuff too, and it winds up being enough for me. And she has been understanding and gentle about my PTSD.

In return, I have dropped everything and taken her to the emergency room when she had a panic attack. When she had a surgery, I was the one and only person there taking care of everything. And truthfully, she did help call 911 when I was in anaphalactic (sp) shock.

A few years ago, when things melted down with her husband, I dropped everything to come get Patience. And I put a roof over her head in the second most expensive city in the U.S. when she had no where to go. She moved out with no notice, but we moved past it.

Anyway, Patience wound up with roommates who were bullying her a year ago. All three bedrooms were taken here. So I said that she could move into the dining room until she found a place. She was looking in the $600 range. But she is still here.

But I was okay with that. Although I will admit that I get annoyed by the reality T.V. she watches. She watches all these shows like Big Brother where one person is scheming and forming alliances and betraying people. I don't understand it.

Anyway,I tolerate that and tolerate the work load. I am the master tenant, so I handle all repairs. I also clean the floors, wipe down the walls, clean the shower, take out the trash, and do the yard work.

But of the others, Patience does the most around the house.

Well, so in the meantime, this August, my best friend from the city where I used to live suddenly died. This friend, Honey, had been there for me when I had cancer in my 20's. Honey was only 39 and otherwise healthy.

I was deeply grieving the loss. And Patience treated me like I had the plague. She even made some subtle remarks that indicated that I was dramatizing the whole thing. I had written a poem about Honey and put it on Facebook, and I put up an album of Honey. Patience started mentioning how people should not put stuff about hospitals and death on Facebook.

Patience did not have time for me. But she have time to talk to strangers she said that she wasn't even interested in on OK Cupid. She spent hours doing that in the evening.

So then from there, my therapist has been encouraging me to get everyone to take more responsibility around the house because I am so overwhelmed. So I did. I started politely asking them to take responsibility for a few specific chores.

And then one of the other roommates, Jean, did not react well to that. Then Jean got a great offer on another place .

My therapist said it would make sense for Patience to move from the dining room to Jean's bedroom and pay reasonable rent. Although I was offering Jean's room to the outside for $850, I offered it to Patience for $600, her range. And my therapist told me that I need to require 60 days notice to protect myself---as things are a little financially dire.

Anyway, Patience says she is just going to stay in the dining room and continue to look for a place because she does not want to give 60 days notice. I was really hurt, and I told her so. I told her that I felt like our friendship was not a two-way street. I told her that I did not focus on the various inconveniences of having her in the dining room and that it bothered me that she was focusing on the 60 day notice.

She called me manipulative and immature.

So from there, I told my therapist the whole thing. He said that there's been an imbalance a long time and that she isn't who I thought she was. But he said I should try to repair the situation by asking why she wants to give $600 to strangers instead of helping a friend who has been there for her.

Well, I was scared to bring it up because I was so emotional. I realize now that the trauma switch has been firing for weeks when I think about the whole thing. But then I thought, "No he wants me to do this. I should say something."

So I said what he wanted me to. Then she brought up the 60 days notice again.

Well, I lost it. I yelled at her that she was selfish. I yelled that when she needed something I did not focus on the inconveniences to me but just thought about her needs. I said that she is focusing on something petty instead of thinking about my needs.

She was very calm and said that she was not going to talk to me.

And she was right. She should not talk to someone who is yelling and using ugly words.

I know that I am right. And I do feel so hurt and angry. But I also feel so ashamed for yelling and using ugly words. I know that was wrong. And I know it's just made a bad situation worse. And now I'm the bad guy in the whole scenario.

I did try to apologize for yelling. I said, "I am sorry for yelling. That is not how I want to handle things. I will keep my distance until I can talk calmly."

She said, "I don't want to talk to you right now."

The whole thing is just awful.

And what makes it all the more awful is that I feel so bad for being ugly. I guess in the long-run I need to find more balanced relationships and stick up for myself more so that things don't come to a head like this. And I need to continue doing the EMDR that defuses my flight/fight/freeze response. It's normally working---I think this whole thing just touched on some deeply buried pain.

Can anyone relate or understand?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Meaning Patience is an ESFJ? She has said that she does not know her type. She does not need to be invited into a conversation and will talk freely and even steer the conversation back to herself. She is fairly social and doesn't want to live alone, so I am thinking E.

She does do some planning, so she may be a J. But I'm not sure.

I feel I had her pegged so wrong. I need to get better at typing people. I keep winding up with INTJ boyfriends who are bad for me, and I always think that they are exactly not INTJ's because they seem so sensitive in the beginning.
 

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She totally sounds like an ESFJ. Always prying into people's conversation and getting anything people say back to herself. So self-obsessed. Typical unhealthy ESFJ. ESFJ are "caregivers" so they like to help, but we're drastically different. The social and not liking to be alone is also very ESFJ.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Interesting! That is good to know. I do have another friend who is an ESFJ and come to think of it, she does bring the conversation back around to herself. But this known ESFJ friend is older, and I think she's more mature. She certainly hasn't been one to take advantage to this degree.
 

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Oh, I think you may be right. I re-read the ESFJ description. All the kind stuff that I found appealing is there and based on the recent selfishness I began to think she wasn't an ESFJ.

Then I read this:

ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.


Recently, she's been hanging around with some people who I think are a bad crowd. I think that's defining her value system. And she does totally think she's in the right.

My normal tendency is to feel like I'm in the wrong too. But thanks to the help of my therapists I am able to look at the situation more objectively---and treat myself like I am a friend who I am trying to comfort and advise.
 

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Oh, I think you may be right. I re-read the ESFJ description. All the kind stuff that I found appealing is there and based on the recent selfishness I began to think she wasn't an ESFJ.

Then I read this:

ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.


Recently, she's been hanging around with some people who I think are a bad crowd. I think that's defining her value system. And she does totally think she's in the right.

My normal tendency is to feel like I'm in the wrong too. But thanks to the help of my therapists I am able to look at the situation more objectively---and treat myself like I am a friend who I am trying to comfort and advise.
We often take the blame for everything that goes wrong in our relationships, but really, especially when it comes to ESFJs, they're the wrong ones. They tend to be extremely manipulative and have no remorse, or no acknowledgment of said manipulation. They believe what they're doing is right, and that they have a strong moral system, but they don't, it's all very much fake indeed. My mom's exactly the same. You ask her a question but she refuses to answer it.

Example: "Mom, why'd you get Pepsi and not Coke this week?" Her: "If you don't like it, don't have any" Me:"Sure, but why'd you change? Why did you not get Coke like you usually do" Her:"Don't take any if you don't like it" Me:"I'M ASKING YOU A QUESTION, DAMMIT! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO ANSWER IT PROPERLY?"
Typical manipulative behavior, and she does that all the time, she NEVER answers questions. It's insane, and I think she needs help, but she'll never admit it to herself. I'm very glad us ENFJs are conscious of our behavior going wrong, cause we try and do something about it, but they don't even see it!
That's why she keeps going back to the 60 days thing, she'll never let go.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Oh, Oleas, I'm sorry about your mom.

I have mommy issues too, but I think mine might be an INTJ. I know that she is an I.

That's interesting about the 60 days thing. And yes, I do have the impression she is not going to let it go. It's really aggravating. Like she doesn't have enough respect for me after all that I've done to agree to 60 days notice on the bargain of a room that I offered her.

Well, I will say that the ESFJ's are not all bad. I just think that I should not have let this one get so close. And even so, she is in many ways a good person. And that's what has made the whole thing hard because: 1) the goodness made me think she would not do something like this; 2) it makes me feel like I'm in the wrong; and 3) it's also part of what I think makes her think she's not wrong or that things are equal.

But I know I'm not wrong. This friendship IS unbalanced, and it is hurtful.
 

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I'm sorry about your friend too.
ESFJs are very caring and giving, I'll admit. But it's hard when they have the same first function Fe, but a very different way of handling it than we do. I have no idea how to get them to see my point, and I sincerely hope things get better for you :( Try to be as calm and sweet as you can, conflict make their stubbornness even worse! *hugs*
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yes, I know her well, and you are right, conflict does push her to sink her heels in.
 

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You are a typical ENFJ in that you are easily talked into thinking that you are in the wrong and the whole problem is your fault. IT"S NOT!!!!!!

I have been manipulated by my ESFP friend in this way. I ended up cutting her off back in March (intending not to hang out with her again), but due to her husband leaving her I softened, and allowed her back into my life. Although, now it is on my terms. I have a new arrangement on how much I will let her ask of me and how much time I will spend with her. The result: She has become more considerate, and is almost chasing me now. She is aware that I am feeling a bit cautious because I was burnt before.

You need to weigh up the pros and cons of having her in your life. Because if she is doing more harm than good in your life, you should definitely cut her off. Of course you are courteous etc but just don't let her own you. People tend to take advantage of our giving nature and be the takers all the time which is not acceptable at all. I have learnt a few hard lessons this past year or so.
 

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As I was reading the posts, I was mentally coming up with a response, and then I got to here...

You are a typical ENFJ in that you are easily talked into thinking that you are in the wrong and the whole problem is your fault. IT"S NOT!!!!!!

I have been manipulated by my ESFP friend in this way. I ended up cutting her off back in March (intending not to hang out with her again), but due to her husband leaving her I softened, and allowed her back into my life. Although, now it is on my terms. I have a new arrangement on how much I will let her ask of me and how much time I will spend with her. The result: She has become more considerate, and is almost chasing me now. She is aware that I am feeling a bit cautious because I was burnt before.

You need to weigh up the pros and cons of having her in your life. Because if she is doing more harm than good in your life, you should definitely cut her off. Of course you are courteous etc but just don't let her own you. People tend to take advantage of our giving nature and be the takers all the time which is not acceptable at all. I have learnt a few hard lessons this past year or so.
... yet again, Kiwigirl pretty much took the words right out of my keyboard. Only difference is mine was an ENFP, and I haven't let her back in yet.

:tongue:
 

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As I was reading the posts, I was mentally coming up with a response, and then I got to here...
... yet again, Kiwigirl pretty much took the words right out of my keyboard. Only difference is mine was an ENFP, and I haven't let her back in yet.
:tongue:
You make me sound like some kind of guru lol. :laughing: hmmm but I like it (to quote the cat in "Over the hedge")
 

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Anyway, I have this other problem in that I have trouble recognizing Takers. I just think that everyone is nice and good. And when someone has a nice demeanor and does something altruistic for a living I assume that they are like me.
I have the same problem, the thing is I view these things lightely. I had friends who talked behind my back and said I was doing some bad things when instead I was doing quite the opposite to them. I didn't get to angry about them, I jsut cut them off. Thing is, it's easier for me because I do not draw my energy from other people, I draw it from me, from inside, meaning I have this infinite resource of positive energy within myself and I need absolutely nobody else to make me feel good. If friends around me act like cancer, first I try to cure it and try and try, but if I cannot succed after a long time or I see no reason (they have a mischevious personality) I will cut them out and not feel that bad about it. I have different people I consider friends (though only a few I consider really close) and in time I learned how to select them so they do not hurt me, or if they do, they will be gentle about it. I also think I have great communication skills and he experiences I lived made me become more secure about myself. When you get in deep shit and see you survived and vame out stronger, you stop caring about what an idiot thinks. You learn to set boundaries not to get into the same situation.

I get a lot of love from my friends, family and most important from myself and I focus on that, so even if I encounter a Taker who does not give back, as long as I cut the losses before they get to high, I will have no problem and I will be filled with love again

...........................

So then from there, my therapist has been encouraging me to get everyone to take more responsibility around the house because I am so overwhelmed. So I did. I started politely asking them to take responsibility for a few specific chores.
Well, this is a great advice, you should gently but firmly set some boundaries so you do not end up in the same situation again. And if people do not understand your need to be helped or be shown some support or act abusive, well these are not friends or are not the kind of people you should have around. Being fair to the person next to you is something anybody should do and unfortunately some poeple will take advantage of you if you give them the possibility. The idea is to not give them those possibilities, be helpful but set a limit to how helpful you are.

And then one of the other roommates, Jean, did not react well to that. Then Jean got a great offer on another place .

My therapist said it would make sense for Patience to move from the dining room to Jean's bedroom and pay reasonable rent. Although I was offering Jean's room to the outside for $850, I offered it to Patience for $600, her range. And my therapist told me that I need to require 60 days notice to protect myself---as things are a little financially dire.

Anyway, Patience says she is just going to stay in the dining room and continue to look for a place because she does not want to give 60 days notice. I was really hurt, and I told her so. I told her that I felt like our friendship was not a two-way street. I told her that I did not focus on the various inconveniences of having her in the dining room and that it bothered me that she was focusing on the 60 day notice.

She called me manipulative and immature.

So from there, I told my therapist the whole thing. He said that there's been an imbalance a long time and that she isn't who I thought she was. But he said I should try to repair the situation by asking why she wants to give $600 to strangers instead of helping a friend who has been there for her.

Well, I was scared to bring it up because I was so emotional. I realize now that the trauma switch has been firing for weeks when I think about the whole thing. But then I thought, "No he wants me to do this. I should say something."

So I said what he wanted me to. Then she brought up the 60 days notice again.

Well, I lost it. I yelled at her that she was selfish. I yelled that when she needed something I did not focus on the inconveniences to me but just thought about her needs. I said that she is focusing on something petty instead of thinking about my needs.

She was very calm and said that she was not going to talk to me.

And she was right. She should not talk to someone who is yelling and using ugly words.

I know that I am right. And I do feel so hurt and angry. But I also feel so ashamed for yelling and using ugly words. I know that was wrong. And I know it's just made a bad situation worse. And now I'm the bad guy in the whole scenario.

I did try to apologize for yelling. I said, "I am sorry for yelling. That is not how I want to handle things. I will keep my distance until I can talk calmly."

She said, "I don't want to talk to you right now."

The whole thing is just awful.
Well, yeah, you did go a bit overboard, I knwo you were hurt and I understand why you did that, I think the solution here is to learn to communicate and be a bot more firm when it comes to things that bother you. If you are not willing to live with a compromise and a situation, don't do it.

It's good that you appologised, I think you should calmly go and talk to her, instead of you trying to find a solution, you should ask her to find a solution. Like :

"Dear Patience, look, I am sorry I yelled and acted like that, I have thought about this and I want you to know I am truly sorry. However, I ended up like that because the situation has become too stressful for me, these things are bothering me : /enter list/ . We need to find a common solution to this, so we can still be friends, if you want to, as this is really damaging our friendship and I would be extremely sad, after all that both of us have been through together. I want you to think about it and try to find a reasonable solution."

If she doesn't have any, tell her she has to think till tomorrow and in worst case scenario she has to leave by 30 days (lets say) which should be more than enough for her to find a place and that you ahve done all that was in your powers to help her, including giving her a huge discount, but there is a limit to what you can do for her, without psyhically and financially hurting yourself.

I think this would be a mature way to solve the issue. This how I think a friend would act and also set some limits to how helpful she can be. Since she can afford to live somewhere, I think she should be able to pay for it, like anybody else. If she was in deep s*** I would have understood.

I know it would not be easy to talk to her, but the way I see it, there is no alternative and stressful unsettled issues do good to noone.

As for the real issue, that she is not accepting your terms, be a little more flexible about it, not saying to put there 30 days instead of 60 or anything, if those are your terms stick to them, but allow people to not like them and search for whatever they feel comfortable with. See, this is always the problem when you mix friends and money. Thing is, when it comes to money, people will always see their primary interest in it. I am not like that, but most Ss I think are. If you want my advice, I would not mix business with friends and I would not expect friends to have other conditions than normal tenants. It would be the best way to avoid any issues. You will always be able to say, "I'm sorry, these are the rules, it would be unfair for the other people". If everybody has a 60 day policy, stick with it and if everybody pays 850, stick with it. Oh and stop selling yourself short, let them come to you. When you do business, stick with your rules if those rules are important, but give the others the possibility to disagree.

And what makes it all the more awful is that I feel so bad for being ugly. I guess in the long-run I need to find more balanced relationships and stick up for myself more so that things don't come to a head like this. And I need to continue doing the EMDR that defuses my flight/fight/freeze response. It's normally working---I think this whole thing just touched on some deeply buried pain.

Can anyone relate or understand?
You are not ugly, think about it, you gave her a 250 discount, if you would have cut the 60 day rule and leave the 850 price, you would have raised the 60 days rent before you know it just from the extra rent money. :laughing: I think you need to set clear limits to what you are willing to do and obey those boundaries. I can tell you how us introverts do it. We have well defined layers of trust. You know that line from Shrek "Ogres are like onions"? Well so are INFPs, we let people get close in steps, after they have proven their trust. You may be already be doing that, but if you are not, you should consider it. For me, I don't know, whenever I do something good, I never expect to be returned, beacuse I know some people will return it and some people won't. It feels really good when it is returned, but for me the feeling that I did something good to a human being is enough. :happy: The fact that you helped that person and made a difference in their life, is great! And even if maybe she will not appreciate it to the level it should other people would. (I do at least) You should feel good just knowing you were able to make a difference. However if you feel you cannot make that effort anymore, you should inform the person and find a reasonable solution for both of you.

We often take the blame for everything that goes wrong in our relationships, but really, especially when it comes to ESFJs, they're the wrong ones. They tend to be extremely manipulative and have no remorse, or no acknowledgment of said manipulation. They believe what they're doing is right, and that they have a strong moral system, but they don't, it's all very much fake indeed. My mom's exactly the same. You ask her a question but she refuses to answer it.

Example: "Mom, why'd you get Pepsi and not Coke this week?" Her: "If you don't like it, don't have any" Me:"Sure, but why'd you change? Why did you not get Coke like you usually do" Her:"Don't take any if you don't like it" Me:"I'M ASKING YOU A QUESTION, DAMMIT! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO ANSWER IT PROPERLY?"
Typical manipulative behavior, and she does that all the time, she NEVER answers questions. It's insane, and I think she needs help, but she'll never admit it to herself. I'm very glad us ENFJs are conscious of our behavior going wrong, cause we try and do something about it, but they don't even see it!
That's why she keeps going back to the 60 days thing, she'll never let go.
See, I don't think there is always a wrong or right, a lot of times things are not jsut black or white, but in fact grey. The thing is we and ESFJs share a different set of values that do not always converge. The only common thing is that we are feelers. You asked your mom why she choose one thing, but the thing is, being a Sensor, they do not do things for a bigger higher reason. She made that choice in that moment, because in that particular time, she liked the idea of getting Pepsi instead of Coke. She just did it, because she felt like doing it, without any reason behind it. It's like me getting a vanilla icecream isntead of a chocolate just because I felt so. (the difference is, I can annalyse myself to see what triggered that, while a Sensor may find it difficult) She answered like she did "if you don't like don't drink it" because she got defensive and you 2 being both extroverted and sharing the J function is not helping. She feels like you are questioning her oderly ways, while you feel you need to find a reason to explain and you need it to be in order, there must be a reason. When I question my ESFJ mom like that (and I did that sooo many times :laughing: ) I do it more sublte, more introverted, more...leaving side for a graceful exit from her side. Like "hey, you got this olive bread, it looks great, but what made you choose this one, is there any aprticular reason, did you find it more appealing"? It's also in the tone of the voice, the curious look I give and so on. And you have to realise Sensors will choose things just because they want to choose that. There is no bigger picture. And by the way both Pepsi and Coca Cola suck! Drink natural juices. :laughing:

PS: I am not sure though she may be ESFJ, jsut saying...stop trying to find reasons, go with the flow, learn their "language" and set the conditions you want by giving concrete examples they can relate to, this is my opinion at least and for me it works.
 
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I will cut them out and not feel that bad about it.
Ah, see that's why another romantic relationship with an INFP scares me. I could be friends with that kind of type. But I'd be afraid of getting to close because the closeness means less to them. They are the ones who are more wiling to leave the relationship. Due to my trauma history, my primary therapist thinks I need to be in a relationship where I am the dominant partner (mildly). And to be the dominant partner, one has to be the partner who is more willing to leave, which is hard for an ENFJ.

And I think that's also why Patience has the upper hand. She doesn't care about the friendship as much as I do.

It is why I need to be so careful and set boundaries.

Well, yeah, you did go a bit overboard, I knwo you were hurt and I understand why you did that, I think the solution here is to learn to communicate and be a bot more firm when it comes to things that bother you. If you are not willing to live with a compromise and a situation, don't do it.
Yes, it's the trauma reaction. My amygdala kicks in my hormone stress response system which says "fight" "freeze" or "flee." Fortunately, I am working hard to deprogram that and having lots of success but for this event. Next EMDR session will be addressing this event and seeing what old wound was triggered here. Then we'll reprogram


It's good that you appologised, I think you should calmly go and talk to her, instead of you trying to find a solution, you should ask her to find a solution. Like :

"Dear Patience, look, I am sorry I yelled and acted like that, I have thought about this and I want you to know I am truly sorry. However, I ended up like that because the situation has become too stressful for me, these things are bothering me : /enter list/ . We need to find a common solution to this, so we can still be friends, if you want to, as this is really damaging our friendship and I would be extremely sad, after all that both of us have been through together. I want you to think about it and try to find a reasonable solution."
I actually already sent a similar email after it happened. Then I had a phone session with my secondary therapist---I have two---because I have issues----and because typically I do more listening to my friends than talking---so I have to pay someone to listen to me. She says that the ball is in her court now and that I've done what I can do.

See, this is always the problem when you mix friends and money. Thing is, when it comes to money, people will always see their primary interest in it. I am not like that, but most Ss I think are. If you want my advice, I would not mix business with friends and I would not expect friends to have other conditions than normal tenants.
Honestly, it wasn't my initial intention to mix the two. I was just helping her out because she was in such a difficult situation. I did not need somebody to live in my dining room. And I just assumed that she would do the same thing for me if I were in her shoes, but I did not realize that I would be in her shoes. Well, I've wound up in her shoes, and that's what caused the conflict. I found out that she would not do the same thing for me. That's why I'm so hurt. I've had this idea that it's okay that I'm alone in the world and don't have a partner because I have friends who I can count on. It's how I've come to grips with not finding someone. But it turns out that I don't have friends I can count on, and unlike an I, it's really hard for me to just count on myself.

It would be the best way to avoid any issues. You will always be able to say, "I'm sorry, these are the rules, it would be unfair for the other people". If everybody has a 60 day policy, stick with it and if everybody pays 850, stick with it.
Yes, my secondary therapist says be very business-like about the whole thing from here out. Um, the thing is that we're not getting response on the roommate ad. And honestly I am scared of living with strangers, especially since I have a pet. I know Patience is responsible around him.

And a few years ago, I did once meet a crazy girl on craigslist who probably had BPD and wasn't paying the bills. She became vengeful when I confronted her about not paying. And it got scary. So I worry about people from craigslist. It's so hard to know whether you are safe with someone in your home.

But my therapists and other friends are all saying that I need to tell her that she will have to move if she not going to take Jean's room. We all know I won't find someone good and responsible to take Jean's room at $850 if Patience is living in the dining room at $300. We already have Betty-Jane living downstairs. So it's too many people in one 3 bedroom- 1 bathroom house, and having her in the dining room creates all kinds of inconveniences. I know that they are right.

We have well defined layers of trust. You know that line from Shrek "Ogres are like onions"? Well so are INFPs, we let people get close in steps, after they have proven their trust.
Yes, that's what I'm working on. Actually, though I did get close to Patience over a 5 year period. I just wasn't seeing the imbalance. My therapist had to point it out to me. Failure to see the imbalance is partly an ENFJ thing and partly because of the abuse I was raised with. My mother always told me I was selfish. Like seriously, even my medical needs were a bother to my parents. There's more to it than that---deep dark stuff---but I don't want to get into the whole thing. So it's hard for me to see when I am giving too much and when others are taking too much. And I tend to believe others when they say I'm being unreasonable. But my therapist is working with me on it. And I am working hard to learn.

Thanks for all of the advice and empathy everyone. Deep down, I know this situation is temporary. I have a bunch of second job interviews in other cities, and I am going to start new relationships with a clean-slate having learned many of the lessons you all have reiterated. And I think it's actually all happening because I have gotten stronger and made changes. People who were in a relationship with the old me are still trying to be in that relationship and not accepting the new paradigm. We are cleaning house.

It just hurts losing a friend, particularly someone who knows and understands the whole trauma history. And it hurts because I feel that right now she's taking advantage of the trauma history to try to get what she wants. My second therapist says that I'm going through something very similar to a divorce.
 

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See, I don't think there is always a wrong or right, a lot of times things are not jsut black or white, but in fact grey. The thing is we and ESFJs share a different set of values that do not always converge. The only common thing is that we are feelers. You asked your mom why she choose one thing, but the thing is, being a Sensor, they do not do things for a bigger higher reason. She made that choice in that moment, because in that particular time, she liked the idea of getting Pepsi instead of Coke. She just did it, because she felt like doing it, without any reason behind it. It's like me getting a vanilla icecream isntead of a chocolate just because I felt so. (the difference is, I can annalyse myself to see what triggered that, while a Sensor may find it difficult) She answered like she did "if you don't like don't drink it" because she got defensive and you 2 being both extroverted and sharing the J function is not helping. She feels like you are questioning her oderly ways, while you feel you need to find a reason to explain and you need it to be in order, there must be a reason. When I question my ESFJ mom like that (and I did that sooo many times :laughing: ) I do it more sublte, more introverted, more...leaving side for a graceful exit from her side. Like "hey, you got this olive bread, it looks great, but what made you choose this one, is there any aprticular reason, did you find it more appealing"? It's also in the tone of the voice, the curious look I give and so on. And you have to realise Sensors will choose things just because they want to choose that. There is no bigger picture. And by the way both Pepsi and Coca Cola suck! Drink natural juices. :laughing:

PS: I am not sure though she may be ESFJ, jsut saying...stop trying to find reasons, go with the flow, learn their "language" and set the conditions you want by giving concrete examples they can relate to, this is my opinion at least and for me it works.
It doesn't matter that she had no reason behind it, but why would she choose to not answer my question and say something totally unrelated instead? She could have just easily said "I picked it because I liked it" or anything she wanted.

LOL And I don't drink any Coke either :p For me, it's just milk!!


EDITED TO ADD. I just asked my mom, (and we laughed for 5 minutes LOL), and she said she didnt answer it because the answer was obvious to her. Just so you know, I don't hate ESFJs at all, I mean, she's loving and she cares a lot, and she does so much for me. But sometimes I don't get her and she doesn't get me. It's ok. :)
 

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Oleas, I totally understand. You wanted her to connect. You wanted a two-way conversation with empathy. And instead she cut off the conversation.
 
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