[urbanzebra]

hi dear entjs,

i don't know many of you in real life. actually i think i only know one very well - and life made me date that man for 6 months now. but i don't want to ask for dating advice - just curious if there are any generalizations that could be made to get a closer picture... it is really weird, but i really can not recall any ENTJs that I have ever been close to but this one.

so my question is about signs of affection.
my ENTJ, I think he kind of is in love with me, because he kind of says so and I sometimes kind of feel that he is... but it is really more me interpreting his behavior. Kind of. And sometimes. See I know, he is into me. I know he chose me to be with him, when I am with him, because he likes me. I make him feel good, because I think I know how to do that, so he is relaxed around me and we are having a great time together. But he doesn't always do the same thing for me. To keep me relaxed he would have to add a little more cuddling time. Some affectionate physical gestures... or some nice sweet juicy words. He does do that. But in between, when he doesn't do that I feel like he could be my goldfish as well.

okay - getting close to my question!
ENTJs, if you are anything like the one I know, I love Te-ing with you, I love how you want to win any conversation and I love to let you feel, that I do not compete when I talk, but still push the topic further and deeper, and I love how much this messes with you and I love how much it messes with me, when I find out that you indeed are "winning" conversations. I love that you are tough and embrace the world and embrace me, I don't care that you are actually rather strangleholding. I love the way you stare. Its intimidating. As if I was eaten. BUT I wonder if I will ever feel some of your presence outside of Te or Se.

How is it with you?
Do you show affection? And how?
Cuddling?
What about getting affection?

My ENTj for example - i think, he sees me like one of those cute little kittens that want to be snuggled but sometimes just get on your nerves. you wouldn't give it away, but just sometimes you wished you got a big old dog instead that will only come when commanded. and I see him as an lazy old lion. if i want more attention, he bites my neck like one time and immediately goes back to lying under his tree.
Is there something you could share about this?
From what I read about you, it makes sense... a little bit...just a little bit - I mean, I don't expect the Fe "OMG you are the greatest person I ever met" - aura... but aren't you guys supposed to be upfront?
How do you do it?
My ENTJ keeps explaining me what "techniques" I am good at ... I guess I should translate this into a compliment or what?

 

[MissCurious]

As an ENFP also 6 months in to dating an ENTJ I completely know where you are coming from. I would also like to hear some ENTJ responses to this.

 

[Elistra]

I've tried to reply to this thread a few times now, but I seem to be running into a bootstrapping problem re: my ability to formulate a coherent response. My apologies.

Random thoughts:

1) If you're not getting enough cuddles, it will be more productive to ask him for more cuddles or whatnot than it will be to ask us if we like cuddles, lol.

2) There was a thread on ENTJ and love languages awhile back, it might help you.

http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/173739-what-your-love-language.html

3) If he's lazy in general, I'd say he's either not an ENTJ, or he's experiencing depression/some other sort of psychological disturbance?

 

[Mr.Adrian]

In general: I like growth in a relationship, from both sides. Stagnation kills. The description of personalitypage on lover relationships does it in general for me, with some nuances on leadership.

ENTJ Relationships

On all the questions: above link for general. PM for specifics if interested.

 

[MsBossyPants]

We get this sort of question a lot. You're basically asking, "how can I get my ENTJ to express himself like I do?" Short answer: you can't.

He'll express his affection for you physically and verbally when (if) he's ready in a way that's comfortable for him when it's right for him. It's probably not going to be in the way you wish because you are expecting him to do so in a way that's similar to your style.

my ENTJ, I think he kind of is in love with me, because he kind of says so and I sometimes kind of feel that he is... but it is really more me interpreting his behavior. Kind of. And sometimes.

that's a whole lotta "kind of"

See I know, he is into me. I know he chose me to be with him, when I am with him, because he likes me. I make him feel good, because I think I know how to do that, so he is relaxed around me and we are having a great time together. But he doesn't always do the same thing for me. To keep me relaxed he would have to add a little more cuddling time. Some affectionate physical gestures... or some nice sweet juicy words. He does do that. But in between, when he doesn't do that I feel like he could be my goldfish as well.

I think the biggest misconception people bring here with this question is they believe that their ENTJ feels things and expresses things exactly like they do, but it's buried deep inside them. If only they could understand how to bring it out in him. If only they could get him to open up about what he is feeling. If only they could find a way to bring it to the surface.

The simple truth is that if you're the right person for him, it will come naturally. You won't have to poke him with a stick to get him to say it or randomly express it. Allow for the possiblity that he's not expressing it because he's not feeling it.

Also, asking us how we express affection gets you no closer to understanding how he does. Maybe "biting you on the neck like a lazy lion" is how he expresses it.

I can tell you one general thing about ENTJs, though: We don't like it when people try to manage us. Like someone telling me "you're not expressing yourself the way I do", as though your way is the "correct" way. I appreciate you for who YOU are, you not appreciating ME for who I am - trying to change me to conform to your standards or fit your expectations - makes me want to run for the hills and not look back.

The point is that trying to get him to "open up" may just drive him further away. Quit poking. If it happens, it will happen on his terms when he's ready. Many times the "I keep trying to get him to talk to me about what he feels" or "I keep trying to express to him that I need more" approach backfires. Tread lightly.

 

[urbanzebra]

Hi you all,
thanks a lot for your answers. It has been helpful already.

I am not asking you, if you guys like to cuddle (with me!) lol
I was just wondering if there were any hints... like if you guys all were the same kind of puzzle.. and then who could give hints to puzzle solvers. Who just cannot see the whole picture yet. I already know that my ENTJ cuddles less than I would. He does it very sweet and nicely and warm and everything, but he does it like someone would eat a banana. You just eat it. And then it is gone and that is it. You wouldn't eat another banana right away. And you wouldn't wanna swim in bananas or anything. You just enjoy it and eat it up.
That won't change.

Another thing is that, as a strong Ne user (ENFP), I am not really that much used to NOT figure it out. Calling him "lazy" (emotionally) is also me saying that I do not see a lot of him. He doesn't share. Or I do not get it. With most people I am able to get a picture of there inner rollercoaster quite soon. I am not insecure about most peoples feelings towards me often, I can tell what they like or dislike about me and how much they validate and appreciate me (or not). With this ENTJ though - I sometimes really wonder if he likes me ..... then I think that maybe he doesn't ... maybe I took to much artistic freedom. you know, using my Ne to fill in gaps. That is what I did instead of poking him. I always give him space. And that space I gave him, I filled up with interpretations.
He thinks that inviting me over is equal to inviting me over AND saying that he missed me. That is okay so far. I can see that. So I learned to be happy about his gestures. And again. I am filling gaps. With fantasy?

That is why I opened this thread.

Maybe understanding more about ENTJs in general would help me to think of mine more clearly.

He is very clear about wanting me sexually. But he isn't showing me his love. Does that mean there isn't that much love?

I also am no friend of asking a guy, what he feels. Most of them don't like that. Even if I am curious. I don't need words all that much - I need HOW you talk to me. Thats the air I breathe And probably that is the "problem". Te - Talking is something I am obviously not good at seeing through. Maybe it is with Ti the function that is the smallest window to a person.

Do you have any ENFPs around you?

 

[MsBossyPants]

He thinks that inviting me over is equal to inviting me over AND saying that he missed me.

It is.

Look for the meaning in his acts.

If he didn't want to be with you, he wouldn't have invited you over. He could have invited anyone.
He missed you and wants to be with you ---> invites you over.

He probably doesn't feel the need to narrate the action. To him, the action probably speaks for itself.
That's what I meant about "poking" him - trying to get the response you want.

 

[XZ9]

Inferior Fi. Not very affectionate. Te-Ni-Se-Fi:ENTJ
ENFP are Ne-Fi-Te-Si
Asking to be more Fi disliked like asking you to use your Si.

 

[MsBossyPants]

Inferior Fi. Not very affectionate.

An unfair assessment. This usually comes from Fe users who assume that because we don't express ourselves the way they do that we are not affectionate.

The more you matter to us, the more we see the value in expressing it. It's situational.

Husband of 30 years. Express affection frequently, deeply.

Casual friend. Don't feel the need to hug you when I see you.

Doesn't mean I'm not affectionate. It means it matters who you are to me.

 

[urbanzebra]

Thanks! Good advice!

What you both say, is fine with me. I CAN try to read his actions and accept the fact that I can only see as much as Fi in him as I have Si - and just respect and love him. (To be honest I really think that I am a good match here, I really do)

Hmm... okay
his Fi-moments, I get them, we share them, his batteries may be charged way quicker than mine - but ok, rare for my taste, but ok
his Se-qualities - turn me on! no problem with that - he shows affection!
his Ni-foundadtion - well that is what creates a really interesting person, but I don't know and don't care, this is his backbone, it is kind of private, not where I come visit, he decides what to show me
his Te marathon - Am I his student? His employee? His sister? A friend? His picture in the mirror? The woman he wants to impress? His target? His mate? A random whore? His soulmate? Intellectually stimulating conversations, straight forwardness - but doesn't really give me a hint. Constantly translating in my mind, even ADDING affection in my mind - to make myself able of building trust, for him, because that is something he has earned and shouldn't be something he doesn't get just because he isn't that much of a Fi-ish human being.

Well guys, I guess if I stayed with that man, it would be this forever - right?
We will see how long that goes!
I am already starting to question how deep his love for me actually is

 

[Elistra]

I am already starting to question how deep his love for me actually is

And that's the crux of it, right there.

Ultimately, there is no point in being in a relationship that doesn't meet your needs. Regardless of the MBTI types involved, there has to be a willingness to meet the other person's basic needs in a satisfactory manner. If you need more touchy-feely, he's going to have to somehow come to terms with that and deliver enough of it so that you do not feel unloved/unwanted/generally shitty.

With my husband... lol, ok. This is going to sound harsh, but does anyone really imagine that I enjoy listening to him going on and on about the various combat mechanics, crafting systems, etc. in video games that I don't play and have no interest in playing? Frankly, I give zero fucks. :dry:

However, if I don't at least put forth a satisfactory pretense of listening to him go on about it at least sometimes, he gets sulky. It is as if by devaluing that which is important to him, I am devaluing him, too. So, I listen to him go on about whatever for ten minutes or so, then I start steering the conversation onto another topic.

He seems to find this satisfactory.

 

[BooMonster]

BAwhahahaha ... @Elistra , that is so much like my ENTJ husband of lots of years!
He listens (up to a point) because he knows I need it. After a while, I get very-unmistakable "hint" that I'm repeating myself, and it's time to move on. Yep, that satisfactory pretence is needed! Many arguments have been had over this interplay - he feels like he's been listening and supportive (and he has) but I don't necessarily "feel the love" (since I want more than he's comfortable to give).

It's beautifully summed up in this clip (it's an oldie but its a goodie).

 

[Mr.Adrian]

He is very clear about wanting me sexually. But he isn't showing me his love. Does that mean there isn't that much love?

[...] Do you have any ENFPs around you?

Isn't sex an expression of love to him? Is it to you?

I have ENFPs in my life. Quite different ones, males, females, healthy and unhealthy.

So far I have witnessed an essential difference between between ENFP and ENTJ intimacy. While ENFPs move rather quickly to becoming close, ENTJs very carefully decide who to let in and who to stop at the door. They need time and a lot of external evidence that you are not going to screw them over, because they are in it for the long run. When they have let somebody in that screws them over, it hurts and takes a lot of effort to get them out of their system. ENFPs in general seem to operate very differently, as I have seen it, leaving it be by "out of sight, out of mind, out of heart". For them it helps to focus on someone else to get obsessed by. I could be wrong, since I have this second handed. It seems the inferior Fi of ENTJs prevents sharing the most intimate thoughts and feelings, because Te tells them his feelings can be easily used against him. In metaphor: it is the Achilles heel of the ENTJ.

In general, the more he cares about you, the more he wants to spent time with you. With 3w2's, they want to make you happy by helping you with things you like. For 3w4, they do things that you both like and are far more romantic. 3w4 is more prone to cuddling, sharing deep feelings and more affectionate in speech as well. Most of the responding ENTJ's here were type 8, so keep in mind these are the types who are far more about control and power: they fear to be controlled by others. And like I told you, through feelings it is possible.

However, if the ENTJ his Fi is developed, then you are far less able to influence him like that. Instead, he is able to see right through it, and play you instead. Thread carefully.

 

[urbanzebra]

Isn't sex an expression of love to him? Is it to you?

I have ENFPs in my life. Quite different ones, males, females, healthy and unhealthy.

So far I have witnessed an essential difference between between ENFP and ENTJ intimacy. While ENFPs move rather quickly to becoming close, ENTJs very carefully decide who to let in and who to stop at the door. They need time and a lot of external evidence that you are not going to screw them over, because they are in it for the long run. When they have let somebody in that screws them over, it hurts and takes a lot of effort to get them out of their system. ENFPs in general seem to operate very differently, as I have seen it, leaving it be by "out of sight, out of mind, out of heart". For them it helps to focus on someone else to get obsessed by. I could be wrong, since I have this second handed. It seems the inferior Fi of ENTJs prevents sharing the most intimate thoughts and feelings, because Te tells them his feelings can be easily used against him. In metaphor: it is the Achilles heel of the ENTJ.

Of course sex is one expression of love!! Big one even, depending on how you do it! It is probably just not the one you are taught to trust the most.

It helps me understand what you said. I am in for the long run. I don't know if my ENTJ is. He wouldn't break up with me. Very unlikely. If this ever stops, than because I would leave. But I guess as an ENFP I would move on quite quickly (not because of out-of-sight, more because I would go through a very dramatic emotional or manic phase of horror and as a result be exhausted and healed after an amount time, that, yes, could be seen as short) And he would... well I think just go back to casual dating. ... SEE? I am not even sure if my boyfriend, would be sad to lose me. HA. Well. That is kind of messed up !

Isn't sex an expression of love to him? Is it to you?

In general, the more he cares about you, the more he wants to spent time with you. With 3w2's, they want to make you happy by helping you with things you like. For 3w4, they do things that you both like and are far more romantic. 3w4 is more prone to cuddling, sharing deep feelings and more affectionate in speech as well. Most of the responding ENTJ's here were type 8, so keep in mind these are the types who are far more about control and power: they fear to be controlled by others. And like I told you, through feelings it is possible.

However, if the ENTJ his Fi is developed, then you are far less able to influence him like that. Instead, he is able to see right through it, and play you instead. Thread carefully.

He is 3000 % an eight. His total world is all about control. But I don't mind. Sometimes I let him control me, sometimes I don't. But he would never let me control anything of his. Not even slightly. But thats is okay, I want connection, not control.

And I really did not get your last sentence. What?

 

[Mr.Adrian]

[...]

And I really did not get your last sentence. What?

ENFP's are prone to use manipulation/influence through using feelings. You know, make people comfortable to open up, share intimate stories etcetera. This goes much easier with people who have a low self-esteem, dignity or are just blind for their own feelings. However, if they have developed their emotional side, meaning a healthy self-esteem, dignity and a good set of principles, they are much less able to influence emotionally. Instead, they will see right through what you try to do. And if the person is bad, he might let you think you manipulated/influenced him while in reality he could see all of this coming and set things in place from the beginning.

I have to say, I have only met one ENTJ in my life who was bad like that. He had traits of a sociopath.

 

[urbanzebra]

ENFP's are prone to use manipulation/influence through using feelings. You know, make people comfortable to open up, share intimate stories etcetera. This goes much easier with people who have a low self-esteem, dignity or are just blind for their own feelings. However, if they have developed their emotional side, meaning a healthy self-esteem, dignity and a good set of principles, they are much less able to influence emotionally. Instead, they will see right through what you try to do. And if the person is bad, he might let you think you manipulated/influenced him while in reality he could see all of this coming and set things in place from the beginning.

I have to say, I have only met one ENTJ in my life who was bad like that. He had traits of a sociopath.

THIS is how you see us? Prone to manipulate. Oo!
Of course I make people comfortable to open up and share intimate stories. That is pretty much all I do I never thaught that someone would use this as an example for something NOT wanted. The way you put light on this one is... you really are an ENTJ! I do want to get close to people, of course that is what I am trying to do - but not to wreck them! I am getting high even right now, by you, sharing this thoughts. I just love insight. Just like you probably love to explain.

But I have to admit, that being "played" emotionally has happened to me in the past (ESTP) and I am known for being "naive", which I am not. But maybe I am. Now that I think about it.

I know already that "playing games" is part of the "game" with my ENTJ with all that power thing he has going on. He openly says that he needs to have a lot of power. But pretending to give me some, just to gain some? Hello? I do not date psychopaths! (unless they provide fun and I can get insight! ) Well at least that would be one sign of affection, you know, to treat me the way I need it to be treated to keep me stick around - actually that wouldn't even be psychopathic, BUT JUST THE WAY LOVERS TREAT ONE ANOTHER

 

[Mr.Adrian]

THIS is how you see us? Prone to manipulate. Oo!
Of course I make people comfortable to open up and share intimate stories. That is pretty much all I do I never thaught that someone would use this as an example for something NOT wanted. The way you put light on this one is... you really are an ENTJ! I do want to get close to people, of course that is what I am trying to do - but not to wreck them! I am getting high even right now, by you, sharing this thoughts. I just love insight. Just like you probably love to explain.

But I have to admit, that being "played" emotionally has happened to me in the past (ESTP) and I am known for being "naive", which I am not. But maybe I am. Now that I think about it.

I know already that "playing games" is part of the "game" with my ENTJ with all that power thing he has going on. He openly says that he needs to have a lot of power. But pretending to give me some, just to gain some? Hello? I do not date psychopaths! (unless they provide fun and I can get insight! ) Well at least that would be one sign of affection, you know, to treat me the way I need it to be treated to keep me stick around - actually that wouldn't even be psychopathic, BUT JUST THE WAY LOVERS TREAT ONE ANOTHER

Lol. I figured manipulation has a negative connotation to it. That is why I also put influence in there. I have seen ENFPs use their skills by means of manipulation (negative) and as well influencing (positive). Well, you certainly use your skills... quite effective, as I can read. And I mean this positive

 

[urbanzebra]

Inferior Fi. Not very affectionate. Te-Ni-Se-Fi:ENTJ
ENFP are Ne-Fi-Te-Si
Asking to be more Fi disliked like asking you to use your Si.

This really got me thinking. If I dated a strong Si user, I would totally let him be on his own when he is in his Si mode. I HATE Si-stuff. I occur to have it in me though, but just a little bit. Like I would enjoy some kind of memory-game from time to time. Or I sometimes am more efficient at learning large ammounts of data by systemizing them and put them in some kind of raster to memorize them better (this is how I learned english vocabulary, instead of just using or hearing it, like an Se user would probably memorize). But thats just a small part of me. If I am involuntarily put in a Si-situation, I suffer. Big time.

So for my ENTJ being with a strong Fi user feels just like that?

I think I could live with that. As my Fi is my second function and not my first. And also it is introverted and therefore more private than my other functions. So I guess I could handle to be on my own with my Fi function even in a relationship.

Ne I got on my own. There really is no need for any more of that (If there was any need, than it would be a need for someone to appreciate passively witnessing some of the Ne I have left for the world, and that need is usually met with any Ni user)
Fi is my own inner world.
Te-charging is what you can get from an ENTJ. Feels cool!
Se is his pleasure (but it sometimes flirts a little bit with my Ne, even though it is not the same, but those functions can experience one another as some good old happy-go-lucky-buddies, they are cousins if you want).
Si of mine is neglected anyways.

And thats it. Not the worst match, I have to say. I have matched way worse!

Just nothing left for reassurance. No stroking that inner Fi- cry-baby, when it is hurt. Nobody diving in that deep water pond, that lies behind that ENFP-joy-curtain. Nothing to help handling insecurities in a dating phase or at the beginning of a relationship, well, nothing, but Te-statements, that we are doing good. Fi (for me, but I guess it must be the same for everybody) is not only private but therefore always a little bit lonely, it is too arrogant and shy at the same time to make itself understood, it decides what is good and what is bad without being able to do something about it. For Fi users it takes a conscious decision to use another function actually DO something after judging something. For an ENFP this could take a while (the first thing we DO is not acting but perceiving some more and go with the flow )

I said I could handle that - which is true - but first you would have to know for sure, that your ENTJ loves you. If you'd KNEW that, it would be okay to not have him SHOW it all the time.

Another thing is that Fi is the direct opposite of Te. So whenever something is said in Te mode Fi users will hear it with their Fi mode and the other way around. ENTJ theoretically musst experience this a lot. Like Fi users being provoked to take something personal or Te users being provoked to fix something. Maybe an ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) would be less frustrated being with and ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) or an INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) because there strongest judging function would at least also be extroverted, just like the ENTJ's Te, so the ENTJ could join it?

Like an ENFJ would say: "This feels awesome! I love you!" Then an ENTJ could say "Yes" or "No" - just like they love to answer. An ENFP would show a shy smile and kiss and switch back to Ne and tell you some weird story about Love so the ENTJ wouldn't even notice something like love was in the air. And even if he would get the situation he - as I learned here - would feel manipulated

I think I just got lost in some function talk... Whatever! Have a nice day out there!

 

[XZ9]

Meh, If you want to know what's it like to use a function you don't like using, try talking to ESFJ's.Maybe you've already had ESFJ friends already. ENFP's don't like Si when ESFJ's have it as their second function. The same situation parallels to ENFP's and ENTJ's. I don't know how anyone could be in a relationship with someone who doesn't tolerate your first or second function if made to converse for prolong periods of time.

 

[hellonewman]

Great post!

Recently started dating an ENTJ (only about a month) and I did a lot of research... so glad I did! Knowing the Fe is there least developed function sure proved helpful.