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@Red Panda. Dang it how does quote work on my phone? Gah...

Anyway, the wording is very sensitive but makes a big impact in results. It says 7s worry that we will never find what we want. That’s totally different than not knowing what I want. I know what I want and have huge vision for it. Will I ever get it? 7s work hard to and actually my existential Enneagram crisis comes from feeling like I will never make it happen. This is actually how I found out I was a 7. Before that, people thought I was a 2 and I do test second highest in 2 and have it in my Tri-type, but I’m never going to have a crisis involving 2... and I have totally experienced multiple life crisis with 7 over and over so... yeah, it seems like people look over the pains involved with 7. I fit the descriptions of 7sx to where the Beatrice Chestnut description scared me and also have to actively work on my 7 sx demons, but I think without knowing what kind of things throw me into a crisis I wouldn’t know for sure if I were a 2 or a 7.

When I thought I was a 2 there was nothing to work on. I didn’t feel that I wanted anything back from doing nice things. I would score as a very healthy 2 (because I’m not a 2) but truly Im an average health 7, I’m afraid

The hole inside with 7 is very specific as well. It is not about unworthiness (I don’t I feel that word and I didn’t use that word) but about emptiness. The fear is about feeling trapped in anything negative. Even right now I’m like “That will never happen because I will make sure it never happens!” I score high enough in 2 and have enough 2 energy about me to feel that “inconsequential” might work for both when feeling down. The 7 aspect to that word is about being diminished. I’ve read books that talked about that more.

i score 3rd highest in 4 even though that doesn’t make a tri-type. I think people through their life can sometimes change Enneagram. It would look to me like I’ve been a 2 before and a 4 before and a 1 before, but mostly 7.

I don’t think MBTI type changes but that we do develop as we age and/or through years of repetitive tasks that call for that function.

If you read carefully it's exactly what it says, that 7s don't know what they want and fear they never will, and doing many things happens in the hopes of finding that special something and also having many interests to avoid disappointment if it's missed. It's the main issue with 7s, as they say, "lacking inner guidance":

The root of their problem is common to all of the types of the Thinking Center: they are out of touch with the inner guidance and support of their Essential nature. As with Fives and Sixes, this creates a deep anxiety in Sevens. They do not feel that they know what to do or how to make choices that will be beneficial to themselves and others.

Second, Sevens cope with the loss of Essential guidance by using the “trial and error” method: they try everything to make sure they know what is best. On a very deep level, Sevens do not feel that they can find what they really want in life. They therefore tend to try everything—and ultimately may even resort to anything as a substitute for what they are really looking for. (“If I can’t have what will really satisfy me, I’ll enjoy myself anyway. I’ll have all kinds of experiences—that way I will not feel bad about not getting what I really want.”)

We can see this in action even in the most trivial areas of their daily lives. Unable to decide whether he wants vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry ice cream, a Seven will want all three flavors—just to be sure that he does not miss out on the “right” choice. Having two weeks for a vacation and a desire to visit Europe brings a similar quandary. Which countries and cities to visit? Which sites to see? The Seven’s way of dealing with this will be to cram as many different countries, cities, and attractions into his vacation as possible. While they are scrambling after exciting experiences,
the real object of their heart’s desire (their personal Rosebud, as it were) may be so deeply buried in their unconscious that they are never really aware of precisely what it is.


So, having a huge vision for their lives seems completely contradictory to the main characteristics.

I remember you mentioning feelings of unworthiness in other Enneagram discussions, maybe I misremember. If you believe you were a different Enneagram in the past, especially if during that time you developed your vision for your life, then it's not exactly right to say that 7s have huge vision and know what they want, it's just not how you relate to type 7s.
The descriptions for type 2 is heavily (F)J so of course you wouldn't relate to them. Type 2 may be one of the types that are the most strongly correlated to some cognitive preferences.
I don't relate to the core fears of type 5s hoarding knowledge and feeling exhausted (basically the more ITJ part of it) but other traits of 5s are relatable. I personally relate a lot to the above stuff for type 7s but I'm also not as fearful of facing the negatives as they make them seem. Of course I anticipate the future to avoid what I can, but the biggest struggle is to find that vision.

Also let's broaden this a bit, who even wants to be trapped in suffering and deprivation, unless they're completely fucked up? No one likes to suffer, they just usually find ways to make suffering bearable, idk it seems like a basic bio-psychological drive. And it seems to me all enneagram types do just that, perhaps with a different focus for each so the idea that somehow type 7s avoid everything negative seems unrealistic to me and kinda arbitrary.

The above are kinda issues I have with the Enneagram as a system, cause it seems to me to not really hold in structure much when they claim we all have aspects of each type but some are more developed, which essentially leads to people just mixing their general personalities with the types. So it makes sense that they've made so many additions like wings, tritypes and whatnot to cover for this issue. And also the idea that some types correlate with cognitive functions or full types seems to me like a clue that the Enneagram is more like an earlier attempt at capturing the same cognitive preferences than being something else entirely.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
@Red Panda. I have never used the word “unworthy” in my life in regards to myself or another living person unless that is a word they used to describe their own feelings and I was quoting. You might have got an impression of that word or something, but it is not one that I would use ever. I I dislike the word linguistically and conceptually. I don’t think about worthiness when I think of people.

Look... I do feel like I know what I want. I’ve read that before about rosebud and I don’t disagree with it, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have vision or know what I want in a general sense. I just might always feel like there is something more. I’d have to explain this on a much deeper level than what I want to go into, but it’s all true. There being something even deeper than I won’t get and might not be able to put my finger on is true. And me using trial and error to find out what makes me happiest is true and trying even more things that I don’t know if it will make me happy or not is true—- because how can you know before you try? And it’s no big deal to switch interests for an ENFP 7. But it’s all for a big vision of happiness and good relationships. But also having drive towards goals is very much in the grasp of a 7. Definitely so. Usually vision and business risks and stuff like that are what 7s are known for. So I think you are assuming that the above description means 7s are hesitant or undecided. That’s not part of 7. We try a bunch of different things, but the drive to try them is totally there and at least gives us strong short term vision for what we want. But I would say most 7s have a strong vision for what we want to work towards for our future, which is happiness, although we might try multiple roads to get there.

Panda I am getting so sick of writing my I most thoughts and you splitting hairs about them. When I first got on PerC in Sept 2017 then people told me I was a 2. I was fine with that since I knew nothing about Enneagram And didn’t look into it. I told my therapist I was a 2 and she said nothing that has happened to me could or would happen to a 2, I would have prevented things for the sake of relationships. I then started to read more and took tests. I said all of this above. I formed nothing about myself after reading about Enneagram. I am really starting to feel like you are acting condescending to me about my own self. like as if you know who I am and I don’t. Like as if you can read better than I can (see above). Now I know you don’t live in 7 shoes, so will you please step off and maybe listen to my experience instead of trying to tell me incorrectly how I am? At some point we have to learn to actually let the people who say they identify with something strongly start to teach others who they are. All this info should be subject to correction from observations about living people. I know more about 7 than the people who are not 7s writing descriptions, you know? And it’s not like I speak for all 7s, we are all going to be a bit different. And descriptions are only going to be as good as the understanding of the person writing and that person is likely going to miss some of the nuances of how things are experienced.

I’m pretty sick of all of this... like all of it.
 

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@Llyralen

My post had little to do with criticizing you personally and a lot more about the Enneagram itself... it only starts from the personal unavoidably because of the nature of this, and because people interpret things differently, it seems. And yes I interpret it as indecision but in the long-term, not in trying things out in the short term. I didn't think you meant "happiness" with your vision because that seemed obvious to me, why would anyone not wanna be happy? I imagined something more like knowing what career to take early in your life or if you wanna get married, have kids or not, money, house, that sort of thing, basically knowing what will bring you happiness many decades from now, which is what 7s seem to struggle with? How can I possibly know, hence why would I focus on you personally? I'm not trying to dispute your life experiences or your feelings or even type you (which is rather what you're doing here...), but figure out if the systems we discuss about are correctly systematizing them, which is what they claim they do and what this discussion is about anyways? I take your interpretation of it and combine all other peoples'/resources that I know, including myself, to try and figure how it works. I thought this was supposed to be a theory discussion for how the MBTI compares to Enneagram which was largely what my post was about... Look, I'm tired of arguing on the personal level too, because that's never my goal but somehow it spirals into this, I wanna talk theory not claim you are x,y,z type personally or dispute your life experiences. And I don't know how I'm supposed to do that when you invite people to talk theory yet don't wanna do it. sigh.

edit: anyways, I apologize if I gave the wrong impression about my intentions

we will feel like we mean nothing
this is what I was referring to previously
 
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