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How much do you enjoy exercising? Are you careful with your weight and body image?

I know Se is our "demon" (last) function but many ENFPs seem to be physically attractive. I read a recent thread here a few days ago remarking about that. I know the "Se" function is more than just body image and exercise but I'm curious.

For me my body type ranges from athletic to average (I let it slip sometimes and have to correct). I am a consistent runner, try to be in the gym 3-5 days per week when optimal. But I hate it, I find the act of repeatedly lifting blocks of metal mind-numbingly frustrating. I also have a secret fear of a woman liking me out of physical attraction, not for my personality/character/heart first, and that's affected me through life.

Anyways, interested in your perspective?
 

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Hmm - I think the Demon / Anima-Animus function is a really interesting question for anybody.

1. I think the Anima-Animus is about us welcoming the irrational impulse it provides.
2. The Demon is where we disavow, repent and distrust the irrational impulses it provides.

Let's not forget what Se and Si are - they're raw sensory data categorised by either "Me" or "World".

A sea view might be "World" (you can't honestly say the Sea View is You - although, some might disagree).

An orgasm is "You" (an orgasm can't be said to be The World - although I suppose some who've had better ones might disagree).
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Technically, there's no difference between "You" and "World", between an orgasm or the sea view - between "subject" or object" - they are both seen as raw sensory data - functions of our categorisation system as limited information systems posing as modelling the wider information system we're coterminous with.

So, to give you an example as an INFJ:

Se is a thing I'm happy to be lead astray by - it's merely the associations which filter through my stronger functions which determine what "World"-associated sensory data I allow myself to become irrationally defined by - as long as it checks all those? I'm happy to spend my life working to have a house by the sea if (Fe - extroverted functions and their relationships to goals) I can't destroy the rent-seeking symbio-parasitic financial system which I see as sponsoring counter-revolutions based on divide-and-conquer to deflect from its guilt in hollowing out and depriving the 50 billion people I believe this planet can sustain at the living standards of a low-level billionaire which I believe technology can make possible.

Si is not a thing I'm happy to be lead astray by - I have contempt for food and carnality and sex as an end in itself because it is hopelessly prone to drawing away energy from endeavours which change the future - my primary function - Ni, and Si is the most past-oriented amongst other aspects.

I have never gone so far, as far as the ENFP, to speculate how Se acts as a Demon function for them - how they rationalise it, how they feel disturbed by it or not - by stillness, instantiated persepctive, by something that ultimately isn't about either being adament about expressing one's specific feelings in a given instance to be authentic or to constantly refine your story about what you "are" - however Se isn't I don't think about body image - it's about The Sublime:

The Sublime is about being able to Lose yourself in the World - to forget you exist, some things are so spectacular that relationships between Subject and Object break down - and you, as a viewer of this artificially contrived division between "You" and "World" experience - become lost in perspective and so feel freed of the constraints of your own Mortal Nature - no ego, no legacy, no impact - just To Be.

Maybe, that's something that bothers the ENFP - I know they suffer from self-hatred more conspicuously than most, but why I've never quite figured out.
 
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How much do you enjoy exercising? Are you careful with your weight and body image?

I know Se is our "demon" (last) function but many ENFPs seem to be physically attractive. I read a recent thread here a few days ago remarking about that. I know the "Se" function is more than just body image and exercise but I'm curious.

For me my body type ranges from athletic to average (I let it slip sometimes and have to correct). I am a consistent runner, try to be in the gym 3-5 days per week when optimal. But I hate it, I find the act of repeatedly lifting blocks of metal mind-numbingly frustrating. I also have a secret fear of a woman liking me out of physical attraction, not for my personality/character/heart first, and that's affected me through life.

Anyways, interested in your perspective?
I was thinking about this a couple of days back on the treadmill. I have had this experience many times before. I was trying to be conscious of it and not react against it in agitation. The feeling rises and it is mighty strong that 'this is not me'. It has happened so many times with me while exercising. This is what I dread about exercising - facing that feeling. I can take physical pain. I can even push myself beyond my limits. But that feeling, as if everything inside just vanished and all that is left is this mass of flesh and bones and the eye, my eye looking at it. Unmediated by any feelings in the moment it is a truly horrible experience. I am trying to build a routine (Si) so that I do it and not think about this, not obsess about what this specific experience means. It is horrible.
 

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I don’t think Se pertains to enjoy exercising- repeatedly lifting blocks and having a routine workout stereotypically fits more to SJ stereotype .

Aesthetic isn’t Se either

Se pertains to being in the moment , embracing and using ones 5 senses externally and natural spatial awareness skills - being detail oriented- practicality
( all of which I lack )

As for me I don’t care much for exercising- although I do practice martial art ( randomly ) , run ( randomly ) and hike every weekend and walk a lot .

I don’t have a fear of people liking me for my physical appearances - I’m flattered by it.

I’m slender - 166cm - 49-50kg

I do enjoy adrenaline rush from roller coaster - being in a fast vehicle - camping in the woods - surprises - loud music etc I like excitement and there are times where I can embrace being in the moment. So no I don’t find Se to be demon - but then again I don’t really believe in cognitive functions and it’s placement


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M
I don’t think Se pertains to enjoy exercising- repeatedly lifting blocks and having a routine workout stereotypically fits more to SJ stereotype .

Aesthetic isn’t Se either

Se pertains to being in the moment , embracing and using ones 5 senses externally and natural spatial awareness skills - being detail oriented- practicality


I don’t care much for exercising- although I do practice martial art ( randomly ) , run ( randomly ) and hike every weekend and walk a lot .

I don’t have a fear of people liking me for my physical appearances - I’m flattered by it.

I’m slender - 166cm - 49-50kg

I do enjoy adrenaline rush from roller coaster - being in a fast vehicle - camping in the woods - surprises - loud music etc I like excitement and there are times where I can embrace being in the moment. So no I don’t find Se to be demon - but then again I don’t really believe in cognitive functions and it’s placement


M
I don’t think Se pertains to enjoy exercising- repeatedly lifting blocks and having a routine workout stereotypically fits more to SJ stereotype .

Aesthetic isn’t Se either

Se pertains to being in the moment , embracing and using ones 5 senses externally and natural spatial awareness skills - being detail oriented- practicality


I don’t care much for exercising- although I do practice martial art ( randomly ) , run ( randomly ) and hike every weekend and walk a lot .

I don’t have a fear of people liking me for my physical appearances - I’m flattered by it.

I’m slender - 166cm - 49-50kg

I do enjoy adrenaline rush from roller coaster - being in a fast vehicle - camping in the woods - surprises - loud music etc I like excitement and there are times where I can embrace being in the moment. So no I don’t find Se to be demon - but then again I don’t really believe in cognitive functions and it’s placement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you for clarifying this, it was incredibly illuminating. For the longest time, I wondered if I was an Se user, because I am enamored by aesthetics. An avalanche of scarlet and aubergine leaves shimmering underneath a blanket of sunshine makes my heart beam. I love the way an old twilight sky can evoke a feeling of magic in the heart. The idea of being free and at the moment is beautiful to me. But I have absolutely no spacial awareness, struggle with juggling my five senses adeptly, and purely living in the moment is challenging to me-it is also tainted with past and future. I despise adrenaline rushes and the feeling of danger unless I am acquainted with it or associate it with something of a deeper significance to me. But as a child, I was horrified by the feeling of being in a rushing car, heights, rollercoasters. Surprises can beautiful and I love witnessing changes in my life but only if they don't alarm me too much. I'm not too fond of loud music. In general, I prefer it when my senses are comforting to me. I also have little to no practicality. I can be fairly detail-oriented but it's overwhelming if I constantly try to do so. People often notice things that I fail to realize because they're so subtle. If I try to notice details, I can, but I tend to get lost on one aspect of the environment and completely miss others. I can't absorb every detail entirely. However, I am INFP and we very, very rarely use Se, so I still feel you can be an Ne or Si user and enjoy adrenaline, the glittering feeling of being present, and thrills-but you would also prefer the Ne/Si user.
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M
I don’t think Se pertains to enjoy exercising- repeatedly lifting blocks and having a routine workout stereotypically fits more to SJ stereotype .

Aesthetic isn’t Se either

Se pertains to being in the moment , embracing and using ones 5 senses externally and natural spatial awareness skills - being detail oriented- practicality


I don’t care much for exercising- although I do practice martial art ( randomly ) , run ( randomly ) and hike every weekend and walk a lot .

I don’t have a fear of people liking me for my physical appearances - I’m flattered by it.

I’m slender - 166cm - 49-50kg

I do enjoy adrenaline rush from roller coaster - being in a fast vehicle - camping in the woods - surprises - loud music etc I like excitement and there are times where I can embrace being in the moment. So no I don’t find Se to be demon - but then again I don’t really believe in cognitive functions and it’s placement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you for clarifying this, it was incredibly illuminating. For the longest time, I wondered if I was an Se user, because I am enamored by aesthetics. An avalanche of scarlet and aubergine leaves shimmering underneath a blanket of sunshine makes my heart beam. I love the way an old twilight sky can evoke a feeling of magic in the heart. The idea of being free and at the moment is beautiful to me. But I have absolutely no spacial awareness, struggle with juggling my five senses adeptly, and purely living in the moment is challenging to me-it is also tainted with past and future. I despise adrenaline rushes and the feeling of danger unless I am acquainted with it or associate it with something of a deeper significance to me. But as a child, I was horrified by the feeling of being in a rushing car, heights, rollercoasters. Surprises can beautiful and I love witnessing changes in my life but only if they don't alarm me too much. I'm not too fond of loud music. In general, I prefer it when my senses are comforting to me. I also have little to no practicality. I can be fairly detail-oriented but it's overwhelming if I constantly try to do so. People often notice things that I fail to realize because they're so subtle. If I try to notice details, I can, but I tend to get lost on one aspect of the environment and completely miss others. I can't absorb every detail entirely. However, I am INFP and we very, very rarely use Se, so I still feel you can be an Ne or Si user and enjoy adrenaline, the glittering feeling of being present, and thrills-but you would also prefer Ne/Si usage. However I could be completely distorted and off in general.

(sorry, the layout of my original comment was strange).
 

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I agree with @ai.tran.75 on the function part of it.
I don’t think I deal with demon Se. I deal with demon SI and the suppression of Si. If I hate repetition and routine it is because it is the opposite of Ne which is exploring
new ideas and improvising creatively in the moment. But I’m not even sure SI doms always enjoy exercise routines, though, and I think a bunch of them would happily come over and debunk the myth.

I think lots of different people use the word demon in different ways and also shadow in different ways.

I actually think that for ENFPs our functions work in a way that means we can accomplish what we need to without Se, just like ESxPs have got enough of whatever they need to accomplish what they want without Ne. And I watch their creativity with awe, especially those super engaged with exploring and conquering nature like surfers and rock climbers and also ESFP performers like Lady Gaga and Freddy Mercury. But I feel like fellow ExxPs with them, but my exploring is in concepts and words and somehow we equally play with music. Actually I watched dance movie reviews done by one of America’s top ballerinas yesterday and she discussed her ideas as we would in concepts, so I realize ENFPs can be top physical performers as well. I do think our functions fit us out to do whatever we are interested in as ENFPs. The dare-devil stuff definitely seems to be more Se though and would require such in-the-moment precision.

But I believe our ENFP suppression of Si to be very real and difficult stuff. Luckily that I have learned to find funny about myself.
Where are those keys of mine?
 

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@Six. The self-hatred. I think there are two things going on Ne that can visualize all that could and should be but that currently doesn’t exist and Fi which focuses inward. I’ve watched a lot of INFPs deal with self-hatred too and more openly... but anyway, let me ramble and see what unfolds. I have actually written extensively about the Fi self-hatred before on this forum as a foil for INFJs and ENFJs. There were patterns in the way these different groups talked when depressed or being negative. When a Person with Fe is depressed you guys often say something like “ This world is horrible! That person is horrible”. And that seems more normal to you guys but alarms Fi. We think “What happened in your life that was so bad? Did a person do something to you? Otherwise why would you say they were horrible?” There must be justification for the anger against the world thinks the Fi person. Now I’m not talking 100% but these were some of the first trends I saw on PerC when I first joined.

And when someone with Fi says “The world is horrible, that person is horrible” you can bet that they have some kind of story they can tell you to justify such anger. But when Fi gets depressed it looks inward, not outward. We are more likely to feel like the horror comes from inside us... negative feelings about others we feel it our duty to control because the feelings originated from within andwe go through lots of purifying and refining with our emotions. We created them, they didn’t come from the outside, not exactly anyway. We control them. And we also are only judging ourselves by our own yardstick, not The world’s, not someone else’s. When we say “I’m horrible” it seems more common-place or natural to feel that way and other Fi users are not as alarmed, but usually assume sympathy is what the person needs right now. Fe listening is likely concerned and wonders at the justification for the harsh self-judgement. . What did this Fi person do that made them judge themselves so harshly? Why would they say they are horrible without reason? Likely no reason at all that has to do with any morals the world put out there. Likely just that what we feel isnt living up to our own expectations. Some of the Fi users I know feel that it is our responsibility to purify our feelings as if we needed to become Frodo or Sam in the Lord of the Rings— pure enough to bare and not be tainted by our own feelings. I’ve heard a few of us talk about the power of those kinds of stories to us. My own is actually what the meaning of the name Llyralen is (just to me anyway). It means to me the thing you long for and fight for the most and will never get until selfless enough for it to want to come to you. It’s abstract stuff but many of us In refining our own values go through a refiner’s fire like that. Harmony with self is the drive.

Fi cannot be very hypocritical without keen awareness of it imo and it is highly attuned to seeing hypocrisy in others, Fe not so much. You have your Fe group’s morals to live up to, you don’t feel the burden to create your own different whole set apart from anyone but yourself. Please apply what you know of TI to this same thing g. TI feels the burden of creating its own reasoning, same with Fi morals and then the need to follow these morals is much stronger than any needs the group has.

My husband and I by just random snagged interest were looking at documentaries and podcasts about Kurt Cobain yesterday. We were comparing how he felt about himself to my INFP husband and to my INFP sister. We were hearing these horrible stories that he supposedly often made up about himself like that he slept under a bridge when he never did. My sister does that too. I believe it is because what actually happened to her in real life doesn’t fit the extreme negativity she feels inside. And she pretty much created in the external world a hell at one point that matched the nihilism and isolation she was feeling. But Fi people hearing “Im horrible” from another person with Fi does not usually make us wonder if that person is horrible, usually we know they are not horrible in the least if judged by outside values but we know that they are likely just feeling so isolated and so “wrong for this world”. There is a terribleness and a price of not being able to change for the expectations around us.. usually the stronger the Te culture then the stronger we feel we don’t fit, and the more terrible and the higher the price. That is a true reality for anyone with Fi living in this world. For instance, we have been completely cut off from my STJ in-laws. But even though we don’t fit, the drive is to look inward for harmony so it expresses more as “I’m horrible” although it sometimes can also manifest as seeing the world as horrible... but like I said then you’d have “reasons” that the world is horrible.

I’m sure that the Fe “the world is horrible” even if a person had a kind upbringing and good circumstances is also very much a reality for Fe.

As for metaphors to help explain how I see it: The difficulties of being Fi are that you feel that you are a round peg in a world of square holes and you are looking for a hole that will fit you.so that you can live comfortably because you know well that you won’t change. But on some level you are glad to be what you are but you also feel that you are horribly disappointing the holes and the lack of outside harmony is painful. It is likely against your values to cause painYou find the most comfort when you see another round pegs so that you know you are not alone. And in order to not feel too special you rationalize from a early age (I think most of us do) that everyone feels this way, that most people are round pegs in a world that expects them to somehow change into squares.

Fe is the opposite, I would guess. I can take a stab at it, but would be glad to hear your own idea of the reverse. But I believe you guys are the board with the holes, unified in values and standards and that sometimes those standards alllow for certain shapes of pegs to make their homes, but often it doesn’t seem like the pegs belong here, you will accommodate only certain types of carpentry, but this particular board tries. But there must be pain in that.. pain that somehow not everyone is the right shape maybe? Let me know how to complete this metaphor.

I remember once talking to an INFJ about his own identity and he didn’t feel very different than others. But of course he was very unusual. I believe I said “Oh yeah.. I forget you guys think that all humans are kind of cut from the same cloth. We do not feel this way.. Fi feels that each person is its own original and separate weave. We will tell you have we got to be the weave we are, but we do think each person is that original “.

There was actually so many observations we had watching Kurt Cobain deal with his inferior Te. INFPs don’t often talk about inferior Te interestingly enough.

Getting back to another way to look at your question again, I always think any person’s lack of health can be shown with how they deal with the suppression of their 4th function and I think it’s like how you deal with an infant. Do you accept the infant as they are? Crying and diapers and in need of nurture or are you angry and hateful of the infant’s lack of skills and the need for constant attention? For Kurt Cobain he hated fame and the pressures he felt from his fans but he loved expressing himself to them. My husband and I were saying that it’s like you need to know that others felt what you expressed and judged your art favorably and yet you despise the need for that outside esteem at the same time. There’s always that strange dichotomy. with the full pendulum swing of your first to last function.

For ENFPs I think we often deal with the Fi-Te angst but where the unhealthy would be is in not accepting our SI, not liking the way our lives are built. Memories or nostalgia being painful or being too hard on yourself for not creating routine and all the accompanying problems like lack of knowing where you put things, etc. can we accept the growing pains of that baby with humor? Or do we abuse our physical frame while still needing it to house our Ne minds? I’m not quite sure, but there can also be a type of perfectionism in ENFPs. We can easily think of what things lack, we can invent in our minds what should be. We might hate ourselves for not being everything we can dream we can be or see the lack in the real world of everything we know we are capable of creating, yet it takes narrowing everything down and focusing on logistics (a bit of Si) to actually create any of what we visualize. An example... I have written hundreds of books in my head and was so excited about each of them, but in real life I’ve created none. How healthy I am might depend on how much I accept this dichotomy about myself, how much I left myself go ahead and dream and the weird ego of having created and feeling that I can create and yet have not created. Can I find that space for acceptance? And with Fi the illness is going to be directed inward. Can I accept the imperfections I see inside myself? Can I also let others accept my imperfections?

As for the same-yet-opposite with INFJs there’s the difficulties accepting others, especially the imperfections of those close to you and I do sometimes see some anorexia in INFJ females and sometimes an illness in an extreme need for austere outward beauty or outside perfection when very unhealthy. Can you accept the imperfections you see around you? Can you also be a part of the imperfections? It’s just an opposite mirror... the discontent is focused outward.

There, that was long and fairly correct in my opinion, although nobody quite likes to own to all of this, What do you think?




I
 

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@Llyralen

That was spot on with troubles of living with Fi, more specifically Fi-Ne. It is a dream for me that everyone in the world would understand the limitations of their own functions and not get flown away with the dominance with their own type. I find the FPs the most vulnerable in this manner in the world and TJs the most robust. One of the most sound minded TJs I have come across is the Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson. Yet his awareness of how Te dominates his personality etc about him is limited. One can say that my world view is inordinately feeling based and so much of it would actually render the world unproductive or inefficient. My logical argument against it is compare productivity of the world and feelings of the world. The world produces a feeling of awe. So much has been achieved in last 300 years. Can we now take a step back and cherish and wonder what it all means for at least a century? They will say no.

Feelings have become restricted to the domain of families. Under such stifling constraints, it is extraordinary work to keep feelings fresh, positive and flowing. FPs wherever in the world, take the burden of it all without even consciously knowing or understanding what the hell it is they are up to. The burden or the strain for all types does not come from the judging function alone. It comes from the introverted function. So, for the judging types the bane is not so much as Fe/Te but Si/Ni. They need to order their world. Organize. With Ni - the understanding and with Si - the routines. They must really think of FPs as system wreckers. They denigrate and the most solid line of defense that I have found is self-mockery. But even self-mockery would work only as long as the other party has grace.

To the end of organization, I find your posts on PerC incredibly well organized. It is inspiring to read things you write. I think others can testify to this. Si organization is supposed to be your weaker function. And your expression is always remarkably well organized. I haven't had the opportunity to read something else from you but I am sure you would organize larger pieces with equal care and skill. Something you can help other FPs, me, to develop.
 

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@Six. The self-hatred. I think there are two things going on Ne that can visualize all that could and should be but that currently doesn’t exist and Fi which focuses inward. I’ve watched a lot of INFPs deal with self-hatred too and more openly... but anyway, let me ramble and see what unfolds. I have actually written extensively about the Fi self-hatred before on this forum as a foil for INFJs and ENFJs. There were patterns in the way these different groups talked when depressed or being negative. When a Person with Fe is depressed you guys often say something like “ This world is horrible! That person is horrible”. And that seems more normal to you guys but alarms Fi. We think “What happened in your life that was so bad? Did a person do something to you? Otherwise why would you say they were horrible?” There must be justification for the anger against the world thinks the Fi person. Now I’m not talking 100% but these were some of the first trends I saw on PerC when I first joined.

And when someone with Fi says “The world is horrible, that person is horrible” you can bet that they have some kind of story they can tell you to justify such anger. But when Fi gets depressed it looks inward, not outward. We are more likely to feel like the horror comes from inside us... negative feelings about others we feel it our duty to control because the feelings originated from within andwe go through lots of purifying and refining with our emotions. We created them, they didn’t come from the outside, not exactly anyway. We control them. And we also are only judging ourselves by our own yardstick, not The world’s, not someone else’s. When we say “I’m horrible” it seems more common-place or natural to feel that way and other Fi users are not as alarmed, but usually assume sympathy is what the person needs right now. Fe listening is likely concerned and wonders at the justification for the harsh self-judgement. . What did this Fi person do that made them judge themselves so harshly? Why would they say they are horrible without reason? Likely no reason at all that has to do with any morals the world put out there. Likely just that what we feel isnt living up to our own expectations. Some of the Fi users I know feel that it is our responsibility to purify our feelings as if we needed to become Frodo or Sam in the Lord of the Rings— pure enough to bare and not be tainted by our own feelings. I’ve heard a few of us talk about the power of those kinds of stories to us. My own is actually what the meaning of the name Llyralen is (just to me anyway). It means to me the thing you long for and fight for the most and will never get until selfless enough for it to want to come to you. It’s abstract stuff but many of us In refining our own values go through a refiner’s fire like that. Harmony with self is the drive.

Fi cannot be very hypocritical without keen awareness of it imo and it is highly attuned to seeing hypocrisy in others, Fe not so much. You have your Fe group’s morals to live up to, you don’t feel the burden to create your own different whole set apart from anyone but yourself. Please apply what you know of TI to this same thing g. TI feels the burden of creating its own reasoning, same with Fi morals and then the need to follow these morals is much stronger than any needs the group has.

My husband and I by just random snagged interest were looking at documentaries and podcasts about Kurt Cobain yesterday. We were comparing how he felt about himself to my INFP husband and to my INFP sister. We were hearing these horrible stories that he supposedly often made up about himself like that he slept under a bridge when he never did. My sister does that too. I believe it is because what actually happened to her in real life doesn’t fit the extreme negativity she feels inside. And she pretty much created in the external world a hell at one point that matched the nihilism and isolation she was feeling. But Fi people hearing “Im horrible” from another person with Fi does not usually make us wonder if that person is horrible, usually we know they are not horrible in the least if judged by outside values but we know that they are likely just feeling so isolated and so “wrong for this world”. There is a terribleness and a price of not being able to change for the expectations around us.. usually the stronger the Te culture then the stronger we feel we don’t fit, and the more terrible and the higher the price. That is a true reality for anyone with Fi living in this world. For instance, we have been completely cut off from my STJ in-laws. But even though we don’t fit, the drive is to look inward for harmony so it expresses more as “I’m horrible” although it sometimes can also manifest as seeing the world as horrible... but like I said then you’d have “reasons” that the world is horrible.

I’m sure that the Fe “the world is horrible” even if a person had a kind upbringing and good circumstances is also very much a reality for Fe.

As for metaphors to help explain how I see it: The difficulties of being Fi are that you feel that you are a round peg in a world of square holes and you are looking for a hole that will fit you.so that you can live comfortably because you know well that you won’t change. But on some level you are glad to be what you are but you also feel that you are horribly disappointing the holes and the lack of outside harmony is painful. It is likely against your values to cause painYou find the most comfort when you see another round pegs so that you know you are not alone. And in order to not feel too special you rationalize from a early age (I think most of us do) that everyone feels this way, that most people are round pegs in a world that expects them to somehow change into squares.

Fe is the opposite, I would guess. I can take a stab at it, but would be glad to hear your own idea of the reverse. But I believe you guys are the board with the holes, unified in values and standards and that sometimes those standards alllow for certain shapes of pegs to make their homes, but often it doesn’t seem like the pegs belong here, you will accommodate only certain types of carpentry, but this particular board tries. But there must be pain in that.. pain that somehow not everyone is the right shape maybe? Let me know how to complete this metaphor.

I remember once talking to an INFJ about his own identity and he didn’t feel very different than others. But of course he was very unusual. I believe I said “Oh yeah.. I forget you guys think that all humans are kind of cut from the same cloth. We do not feel this way.. Fi feels that each person is its own original and separate weave. We will tell you have we got to be the weave we are, but we do think each person is that original “.

There was actually so many observations we had watching Kurt Cobain deal with his inferior Te. INFPs don’t often talk about inferior Te interestingly enough.

Getting back to another way to look at your question again, I always think any person’s lack of health can be shown with how they deal with the suppression of their 4th function and I think it’s like how you deal with an infant. Do you accept the infant as they are? Crying and diapers and in need of nurture or are you angry and hateful of the infant’s lack of skills and the need for constant attention? For Kurt Cobain he hated fame and the pressures he felt from his fans but he loved expressing himself to them. My husband and I were saying that it’s like you need to know that others felt what you expressed and judged your art favorably and yet you despise the need for that outside esteem at the same time. There’s always that strange dichotomy. with the full pendulum swing of your first to last function.

For ENFPs I think we often deal with the Fi-Te angst but where the unhealthy would be is in not accepting our SI, not liking the way our lives are built. Memories or nostalgia being painful or being too hard on yourself for not creating routine and all the accompanying problems like lack of knowing where you put things, etc. can we accept the growing pains of that baby with humor? Or do we abuse our physical frame while still needing it to house our Ne minds? I’m not quite sure, but there can also be a type of perfectionism in ENFPs. We can easily think of what things lack, we can invent in our minds what should be. We might hate ourselves for not being everything we can dream we can be or see the lack in the real world of everything we know we are capable of creating, yet it takes narrowing everything down and focusing on logistics (a bit of Si) to actually create any of what we visualize. An example... I have written hundreds of books in my head and was so excited about each of them, but in real life I’ve created none. How healthy I am might depend on how much I accept this dichotomy about myself, how much I left myself go ahead and dream and the weird ego of having created and feeling that I can create and yet have not created. Can I find that space for acceptance? And with Fi the illness is going to be directed inward. Can I accept the imperfections I see inside myself? Can I also let others accept my imperfections?

As for the same-yet-opposite with INFJs there’s the difficulties accepting others, especially the imperfections of those close to you and I do sometimes see some anorexia in INFJ females and sometimes an illness in an extreme need for austere outward beauty or outside perfection when very unhealthy. Can you accept the imperfections you see around you? Can you also be a part of the imperfections? It’s just an opposite mirror... the discontent is focused outward.

There, that was long and fairly correct in my opinion, although nobody quite likes to own to all of this, What do you think?




I
This is so overwhelmingly beautiful, all of it. I have never felt so known. A part of me always wonders if I hadn't discovered about MBTI, that I would have lost myself in the dunes of culture and forever have lost the girl inside. But I know she shimmers me inside, forever. Even though parts of me may have dissolved as I tried to adapt to and discover myself in the world, I still would have felt a deep sense of discomfort beneath. My entire life I have been the round peg. In elementary school I saw the world differently and was chastised for it. I had a glimmering world of emotions inside of me that I drowned in, and it created a forever barrier between the rest of the world. I constantly feel like I am watching from afar no matter how much I attempt to fit in. When I see the world, the promiscuous, shallow culture, that dismisses the magic of childhood innocence and being open and seeking more than face-value, I feel so alone. Learning about myself, that there are others also lead by the secret tune of their heart, has been so comforting. Sometimes I feel unsure if I am truly an INFP, if it is all a lie. But the shards of brokenness, the sheer pain, the forever feeling alone, all of it rings true. You perfectly captured the excrutiating weight of Fi and I am amazed by your understanding of human fragility.
 

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@burningsoul. I wrote it so late at night. I wouldn’t call THAT organized... what’s with all the Kurt Cobain interjections? But I do think I pulled together the exact right theory in the end so I’m proud of that. I do think Ni-Fe life angst is accepting the imperfections in others and recognizing and accepting themselves as part of those imperfections and I do think the Ne-Fi angst is accepting the imperfections in ourselves and letting others accept these too. Dang did I put it better before?

I think your complement will keep me smiling for more than a week. If I can think of myself and my writing as well organized then I might be further along in dispelling my life’s angst! For sure! Also..check your email If you haven’t.. I really enjoyed writing about writing.

Cry baby SI...cry all you want.. we have decided to love you anyway and rejoice in that cry. Babies are the purest best things always... and even better when they are well-tended.
 
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@glittercloud. Thank you! And also thank you for comparing the pain of being the round peg together. In my mind while I was writing I was actually adding so many carvings to those round pegs. They aren’t just round, they don’t just “not fit” but are extremely beautiful in their uniqueness.

I hope I didn’t do a disservice to Ni-Fe while I was writing in this way because I do actually feel that they have carved something just as unique but that is constantly getting disappointed the pegs aren’t designed quite as beautifully as what they are ready to find. Sometimes there is bound to be an absolutely fantastic match-up.

Mostly though it is just so comforting and a source of joy to find others who appreciate the amazing uniqueness of each peg. Our Fi joy is when we find others that make us not feel so alone, when we can find harmony and home with ourselves and with others. But we know it is rare. It would be sin to take it for granted, I think.

Thank you for your reply my new friend.

Oh by the way... we do know STJ is like the cookie cutter...roll ‘em out, cut ‘em out. As efficiently and methodically as possible. Make those lines even! But their Fi starts coming out too at points... there IS luckily a lot of beauty to see, right?

@Six See above. I am so curious as to what you’ll think. It’s kind of crazy that this is the spot that this discussion unfolded, right? Lol. Ahh well.
 
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@Six. The self-hatred. I think there are two things going on Ne that can visualize all that could and should be but that currently doesn’t exist and Fi which focuses inward. I’ve watched a lot of INFPs deal with self-hatred too and more openly... but anyway, let me ramble and see what unfolds. I have actually written extensively about the Fi self-hatred before on this forum as a foil for INFJs and ENFJs. There were patterns in the way these different groups talked when depressed or being negative. When a Person with Fe is depressed you guys often say something like “ This world is horrible! That person is horrible”. And that seems more normal to you guys but alarms Fi. We think “What happened in your life that was so bad? Did a person do something to you? Otherwise why would you say they were horrible?” There must be justification for the anger against the world thinks the Fi person. Now I’m not talking 100% but these were some of the first trends I saw on PerC when I first joined.

And when someone with Fi says “The world is horrible, that person is horrible” you can bet that they have some kind of story they can tell you to justify such anger. But when Fi gets depressed it looks inward, not outward. We are more likely to feel like the horror comes from inside us... negative feelings about others we feel it our duty to control because the feelings originated from within andwe go through lots of purifying and refining with our emotions. We created them, they didn’t come from the outside, not exactly anyway. We control them. And we also are only judging ourselves by our own yardstick, not The world’s, not someone else’s. When we say “I’m horrible” it seems more common-place or natural to feel that way and other Fi users are not as alarmed, but usually assume sympathy is what the person needs right now. Fe listening is likely concerned and wonders at the justification for the harsh self-judgement. . What did this Fi person do that made them judge themselves so harshly? Why would they say they are horrible without reason? Likely no reason at all that has to do with any morals the world put out there. Likely just that what we feel isnt living up to our own expectations. Some of the Fi users I know feel that it is our responsibility to purify our feelings as if we needed to become Frodo or Sam in the Lord of the Rings— pure enough to bare and not be tainted by our own feelings. I’ve heard a few of us talk about the power of those kinds of stories to us. My own is actually what the meaning of the name Llyralen is (just to me anyway). It means to me the thing you long for and fight for the most and will never get until selfless enough for it to want to come to you. It’s abstract stuff but many of us In refining our own values go through a refiner’s fire like that. Harmony with self is the drive.

Fi cannot be very hypocritical without keen awareness of it imo and it is highly attuned to seeing hypocrisy in others, Fe not so much. You have your Fe group’s morals to live up to, you don’t feel the burden to create your own different whole set apart from anyone but yourself. Please apply what you know of TI to this same thing g. TI feels the burden of creating its own reasoning, same with Fi morals and then the need to follow these morals is much stronger than any needs the group has.

My husband and I by just random snagged interest were looking at documentaries and podcasts about Kurt Cobain yesterday. We were comparing how he felt about himself to my INFP husband and to my INFP sister. We were hearing these horrible stories that he supposedly often made up about himself like that he slept under a bridge when he never did. My sister does that too. I believe it is because what actually happened to her in real life doesn’t fit the extreme negativity she feels inside. And she pretty much created in the external world a hell at one point that matched the nihilism and isolation she was feeling. But Fi people hearing “Im horrible” from another person with Fi does not usually make us wonder if that person is horrible, usually we know they are not horrible in the least if judged by outside values but we know that they are likely just feeling so isolated and so “wrong for this world”. There is a terribleness and a price of not being able to change for the expectations around us.. usually the stronger the Te culture then the stronger we feel we don’t fit, and the more terrible and the higher the price. That is a true reality for anyone with Fi living in this world. For instance, we have been completely cut off from my STJ in-laws. But even though we don’t fit, the drive is to look inward for harmony so it expresses more as “I’m horrible” although it sometimes can also manifest as seeing the world as horrible... but like I said then you’d have “reasons” that the world is horrible.

I’m sure that the Fe “the world is horrible” even if a person had a kind upbringing and good circumstances is also very much a reality for Fe.

As for metaphors to help explain how I see it: The difficulties of being Fi are that you feel that you are a round peg in a world of square holes and you are looking for a hole that will fit you.so that you can live comfortably because you know well that you won’t change. But on some level you are glad to be what you are but you also feel that you are horribly disappointing the holes and the lack of outside harmony is painful. It is likely against your values to cause painYou find the most comfort when you see another round pegs so that you know you are not alone. And in order to not feel too special you rationalize from a early age (I think most of us do) that everyone feels this way, that most people are round pegs in a world that expects them to somehow change into squares.

Fe is the opposite, I would guess. I can take a stab at it, but would be glad to hear your own idea of the reverse. But I believe you guys are the board with the holes, unified in values and standards and that sometimes those standards alllow for certain shapes of pegs to make their homes, but often it doesn’t seem like the pegs belong here, you will accommodate only certain types of carpentry, but this particular board tries. But there must be pain in that.. pain that somehow not everyone is the right shape maybe? Let me know how to complete this metaphor.

I remember once talking to an INFJ about his own identity and he didn’t feel very different than others. But of course he was very unusual. I believe I said “Oh yeah.. I forget you guys think that all humans are kind of cut from the same cloth. We do not feel this way.. Fi feels that each person is its own original and separate weave. We will tell you have we got to be the weave we are, but we do think each person is that original “.

There was actually so many observations we had watching Kurt Cobain deal with his inferior Te. INFPs don’t often talk about inferior Te interestingly enough.

Getting back to another way to look at your question again, I always think any person’s lack of health can be shown with how they deal with the suppression of their 4th function and I think it’s like how you deal with an infant. Do you accept the infant as they are? Crying and diapers and in need of nurture or are you angry and hateful of the infant’s lack of skills and the need for constant attention? For Kurt Cobain he hated fame and the pressures he felt from his fans but he loved expressing himself to them. My husband and I were saying that it’s like you need to know that others felt what you expressed and judged your art favorably and yet you despise the need for that outside esteem at the same time. There’s always that strange dichotomy. with the full pendulum swing of your first to last function.

For ENFPs I think we often deal with the Fi-Te angst but where the unhealthy would be is in not accepting our SI, not liking the way our lives are built. Memories or nostalgia being painful or being too hard on yourself for not creating routine and all the accompanying problems like lack of knowing where you put things, etc. can we accept the growing pains of that baby with humor? Or do we abuse our physical frame while still needing it to house our Ne minds? I’m not quite sure, but there can also be a type of perfectionism in ENFPs. We can easily think of what things lack, we can invent in our minds what should be. We might hate ourselves for not being everything we can dream we can be or see the lack in the real world of everything we know we are capable of creating, yet it takes narrowing everything down and focusing on logistics (a bit of Si) to actually create any of what we visualize. An example... I have written hundreds of books in my head and was so excited about each of them, but in real life I’ve created none. How healthy I am might depend on how much I accept this dichotomy about myself, how much I left myself go ahead and dream and the weird ego of having created and feeling that I can create and yet have not created. Can I find that space for acceptance? And with Fi the illness is going to be directed inward. Can I accept the imperfections I see inside myself? Can I also let others accept my imperfections?

As for the same-yet-opposite with INFJs there’s the difficulties accepting others, especially the imperfections of those close to you and I do sometimes see some anorexia in INFJ females and sometimes an illness in an extreme need for austere outward beauty or outside perfection when very unhealthy. Can you accept the imperfections you see around you? Can you also be a part of the imperfections? It’s just an opposite mirror... the discontent is focused outward.

There, that was long and fairly correct in my opinion, although nobody quite likes to own to all of this, What do you think
The idea that an ENFP is concealing a carefully cultivated and honed wellspring of emotion whose purity they feel a duty to maintain does make me feel a little more affection for them, given how stricken they are with it and yet (wo)manfully continue to try.


But if what you say is true, that you're trying to be Samwise (or Frodo - whatever that means, Samwise is clearly an ISFJ whereas Frodo might mean - what? Purity before the temptation of absolute power? Which I wouldn't trust an ENFP with anymore than I would trust myself incidentally) then what is the INFP trying to do?

Because Fi isn't in isolation anymore than Se or Si or Fe or anything else - they're composites which colour and filter each other.

Is the INFP trying to become Dwight Schrute?

Because in my experience the INFP doesn't want their purity back once they've lost it - maybe the ENFP secretly chases it as a goal however I haven't seen that as a desire in INFPs - they want to push through the black hole and out to the other side after they've lost that innocence in a way the ENFP seems desperately with all their florid, frothy happiness to avoid.

If we're going to give me a complete understanding of INFP / ENFP self-hatred?
 
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How much do you enjoy exercising? Are you careful with your weight and body image?

I know Se is our "demon" (last) function but many ENFPs seem to be physically attractive. I read a recent thread here a few days ago remarking about that. I know the "Se" function is more than just body image and exercise but I'm curious.

For me my body type ranges from athletic to average (I let it slip sometimes and have to correct). I am a consistent runner, try to be in the gym 3-5 days per week when optimal. But I hate it, I find the act of repeatedly lifting blocks of metal mind-numbingly frustrating. I also have a secret fear of a woman liking me out of physical attraction, not for my personality/character/heart first, and that's affected me through life.

Anyways, interested in your perspective?
I wouldn't say Se is a demon for me personally, however it does raise its head to haunt me at times. I like to exercise, and I try to be healthy but it's not the most important thing in my life l, more of an after thought.
My brother is a Dom Se being an ESTP and sometimes I envy him for that. He is the exact definition of the function, both in depth and stereotypically. And I really wish I was like him in some ways because their these amazing strengths and I'm all faults in that department. He is so intune with the world around him and honestly has the fastest reflexes I've ever seen. He can go to the gym for hours and love it! But I get bored so fast! And I just wish I could.stay grounded in the present for a minute and not my brain with all the ideas like him, but I can't.

I also have a secret fear of a woman liking me out of physical attraction, not for my personality/character/heart first, and that's affected me through life.
And I totally understand, not to the point of a fear. But it's scary like does anyone like you for your personality? Is what I always think hahaha
 

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How much do you enjoy exercising? Are you careful with your weight and body image?

I know Se is our "demon" (last) function but many ENFPs seem to be physically attractive. I read a recent thread here a few days ago remarking about that. I know the "Se" function is more than just body image and exercise but I'm curious.

For me my body type ranges from athletic to average (I let it slip sometimes and have to correct). I am a consistent runner, try to be in the gym 3-5 days per week when optimal. But I hate it, I find the act of repeatedly lifting blocks of metal mind-numbingly frustrating. I also have a secret fear of a woman liking me out of physical attraction, not for my personality/character/heart first, and that's affected me through life.

Anyways, interested in your perspective?
Well, despite not being an ENFP, I share the same dominant and "devil" functions as you do. I struggle with body fat (I was relatively skinny until I hit my mid 20s). I find food far more fun than exercise. I have a secret fear of women not liking me because I am fat and never discovering my personality/character/heart first (I'd count your blessings on that front).
 

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Yeah I've always been curious how Se demon comes out in ENFPs and ENTPs too. Se is not the physical activity function but rather means responding to details and reacting to details in the moment and paying attention to details to react to spontaneously today fully in the moment. But even if any type can like physical things and activities, Se is known for usually being in tune with the physical world and all of its details because of the way the function works and takes in information. Always curious on how Se manifests in ENFPs as Ne doms, so this thread is interesting as a result. I think my Demon is Si in comparison which is interesting as a INFJ myself.
 

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I wouldn't say Se is a demon for me personally, however it does raise its head to haunt me at times. I like to exercise, and I try to be healthy but it's not the most important thing in my life l, more of an after thought.
My brother is a Dom Se being an ESTP and sometimes I envy him for that. He is the exact definition of the function, both in depth and stereotypically. And I really wish I was like him in some ways because their these amazing strengths and I'm all faults in that department. He is so intune with the world around him and honestly has the fastest reflexes I've ever seen. He can go to the gym for hours and love it! But I get bored so fast! And I just wish I could.stay grounded in the present for a minute and not my brain with all the ideas like him, but I can't.



And I totally understand, not to the point of a fear. But it's scary like does anyone like you for your personality? Is what I always think hahaha
I'm an INFP and I don't want to keep intruding this conversation, but I can relate. I have an ESTP twin brother and he is naturally so active, constantly moving around, dazzling with an energy I have never known. I can push myself to exercise but it doesn't come naturally to me and truthfully I don't feel compelled to exercise to improve my life-although I know it can benefit me. I have tried to lose weight but my energy would only last in small, fiery bursts and die out very quickly. Exercise is just torturous for me and I cannot understand or care enough to devote my entire life to it.
 

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I'm an INFP and I don't want to keep intruding this conversation, but I can relate. I have an ESTP twin brother and he is naturally so active, constantly moving around, dazzling with an energy I have never known. I can push myself to exercise but it doesn't come naturally to me and truthfully I don't feel compelled to exercise to improve my life-although I know it can benefit me. I have tried to lose weight but my energy would only last in small, fiery bursts and die out very quickly. Exercise is just torturous for me and I cannot understand or care enough to devote my entire life to it.
It's nice to find someone who knows what's it's like to have another person with an ESTP brother hahaha
 

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@Six. You seem kind of bitter. From what you wrote in regards to not understanding the way Fi experiences itself Id say you don’t understand it and maybe you’re not ready to know how very different the experience of it is from your own experience. As for what you’re observing Is say there is a individual tolerance that is not universal for each type for things like bitterness, disappointment, happiness, sadness, purity and that is inside of each type On the individual level, although there are generalities about each type that can be made. For instance I read an article on psychology today talking about studies that showed that introverts tolerate less joy for shorter periods of time than extroverts, seeing it as a type of instability. I thought I wrote well for a range of self-hatred and how that works in Fi people, but it is definitelly a range as there is self-understanding and self-acceptance. Let me know when you actually want to understand, maybe. I’m feeling like my effort was wasted on you at this time.
 

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As others have mentioned Se isn't about exercising or being fit, there are plenty of Se people who live sedentary lives and have bad habits. My issue with Se is that they don't go beyond what they can immediately experience which can be frustrating if it creates bad consequences. As for how I personally experience it, I wouldn't call it demonic, it's helpful sometimes when you just can't do anything and just have to accept what's happening tho I'm unsure if that's S or just another facet of NE, particularly the extraverted attitude in general. i.e. I had some back problems I had physiotherapy for and the therapist used some machine that could cause some pain after, I just accepted it and it didn't really bother me at all my body was fine with it. My SI dom mother hates to be even touched for a light massage. A small example but I think it relates to the whole attitude thing, how much you let the environment affect you.
I don't think SE is so ego-dystonic as SI for the NE doms as the attitude sorta bridges the differences. It's a lot more annoying when it's about intellectual & lifestyle matters with other people, cause that's when the real difference in perspective shows. But at the personal level I mostly get along well with SE types, like others have mentioned, and I've found they tend to appreciate a lot what I have to offer, SE doms more than aux usually.

The Sublime is about being able to Lose yourself in the World - to forget you exist, some things are so spectacular that relationships between Subject and Object break down - and you, as a viewer of this artificially contrived division between "You" and "World" experience - become lost in perspective and so feel freed of the constraints of your own Mortal Nature - no ego, no legacy, no impact - just To Be.
Maybe, that's something that bothers the ENFP - I know they suffer from self-hatred more conspicuously than most, but why I've never quite figured out.
I don't think that's SE but the E attitude in general and I find it rather wonderful though I prob don't experience it from the same triggers that SE do, if they do (I never had this talk with a SE type).

Self-hatred is the result of holding ourselves responsible for not bringing destruction on the world from our feelings or behaviors we believe are bad, but @Llyralen covered this more extensively.
 
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