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@Six. You seem kind of bitter. From what you wrote in regards to not understanding the way Fi experiences itself Id say you don’t understand it and maybe you’re not ready to know how very different the experience of it is from your own experience. As for what you’re observing Is say there is a individual tolerance that is not universal for each type for things like bitterness, disappointment, happiness, sadness, purity and that is inside of each type On the individual level, although there are generalities about each type that can be made. For instance I read an article on psychology today talking about studies that showed that introverts tolerate less joy for shorter periods of time than extroverts, seeing it as a type of instability. I thought I wrote well for a range of self-hatred and how that works in Fi people, but it is definitelly a range as there is self-understanding and self-acceptance. Let me know when you actually want to understand, maybe. I’m feeling like my effort was wasted on you at this time.
1. I am bitter, I have experiences in my past which have made me emotionally unfit.
2. As a result of that emotional unfitness, I'm incapable of understanding.
3. Because I'm so inferior at understanding - it's not even worth your time explaining it to me - you're that far beyond and above.
4. Underlying all of that, is the self-evident truth that what you're saying has merit, as it is a self-evident display of lacking ability and emotional well-being if someone doesn't respond to what you say with abject praise.

Honestly? I'd feel bad about myself if I allowed myself to think along those lines, fortunately I don't - it's possibly one reason amongst many I don't hate myself.

And I'm sure you'd feel it's being mean to point out what you just did - or to point out that I think the likelier issue is there's a slightly petulant aspect of you which was expecting some gushing praise and instead in disappointment lashed out when it didn't get it.

However I'm just visiting your emotions same as you did - I'll credit myself as thinking I'm a tiny bit better at it.

If I fail to understand self-hatred it's not because there's something wrong with me - that's the irony here, self-hatred:

1. Is useless and produces no good effect.
2. It harms the person who suffers from it.
3. It makes that person ineffective.
4. It puts burdens on others as a result.

By all standards it's a disease - my inability to see its validity is not an indicator of some fault in myself, anymore than I as a neurotic who'll worry over things constantly am simply surrounded by people who are emotionally faulty because they can't understand what it's like to ambiently, naturally speculate about negative things.

It's a height of hubris I'm sure could only come out of someone who believes their emotional schema should revolve around itself in isolation to and difference from others as though they're special - it's little wonder it yields self-hatred, that's a lingering awareness that schema is incorrect.

And I'm not even going to touch the stuff on Fe-types blaming the world for their problems, that's a misappraisal so dramatic it makes me wonder how many you've actually met.

And I don't want to be mean here - but, hey, I have Fi in the Critical Parent position, I'm just saying "My Truth" - lol, I'm sure I could have gushed however it would have been inauthentic and we all know how much you strong Fi types value that too - I'm sure either way it's MY fault.

If you want to reset for a chat where you don't mind me disagreeing, I'm happy to give you my best effort at understanding - however you have to meet me half way instead of writing me off as an incompetent - that's fair.
 

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If I remember correctly, something similar about what is Se was one of my first posts when I joined Cafe :) I understood something about other functions that time but never got what Se is. Now I'd say Se isn't actually our demon, it's Si - because Se usually doesn't "haunt" us. It used to haunt me a little when I was younger - in the way that sometimes I felt urge to buy new shiny electronic gadgets while I didn't do proper research and ended up with regrettable choices. During recent years I've become quite a friend with Se - a bit increased interest in extreme activities and also I can stay in the moment while travelling. Previously I was never in the moment, give me whatever wonder of the world.
 

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If I fail to understand self-hatred it's not because there's something wrong with me - that's the irony here, self-hatred:

1. Is useless and produces no good effect.
2. It harms the person who suffers from it.
3. It makes that person ineffective.
4. It puts burdens on others as a result.

By all standards it's a disease - my inability to see its validity is not an indicator of some fault in myself, anymore than I as a neurotic who'll worry over things constantly am simply surrounded by people who are emotionally faulty because they can't understand what it's like to ambiently, naturally speculate about negative things.
I don't think she or anyone argued that self-hatred is good, the point is from what kind of attitude it originates from, which is to be responsible for oneself. If someone has reached the point of hatred they're obviously not in a good situation, probably depressed and true it can have the negatives you listed. Maybe these people you met happened to be in an environment that took advantage of that attitude and didn't allow them to focus on how they're good, or to develop personal boundaries.
 

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I don't think she or anyone argued that self-hatred is good, the point is from what kind of attitude it originates from, which is to be responsible for oneself. If someone has reached the point of hatred they're obviously not in a good situation, probably depressed and true it can have the negatives you listed. Maybe these people you met happened to be in an environment that took advantage of that attitude and didn't allow them to focus on how they're good, or to develop personal boundaries.
You're right, (and although this thread wasn't about self-hatred), it is something I don't understand and I did actually gain perspective from @Llyralen on the subject, (it's why I was a little perplexed when I asked for a little further perspective on how it's different for INFPs / ENFPs that I instead got rounded upon as being "bitter" and incapable of understanding, it's not like I disagreed with the points about her own perspective on it).

However as much as I understand her point:

The person who is consumed by hatred as a crutch and an anaesthetic for their pain, be they:

A. Fi sitting in the mess of their own lives hating themselves for not being what they want to be.
B. Fe sitting in the mess of their own lives hating the world for not being what they want to be.

The outcome is still the same - the subject of their hatred is a useless, impotent object which they either won't change or can't change - and in fact that is necessary for them to feel the hatred which holds their pain at bay.

The thing I suppose I don't understand about self-hatred as opposed to hatred of something in the world is at the very least hatred of something in the world, if you can feel no positive emotion, is at least active - hatred is a nasty instinct but it equips you with the ability to get up and fight, it's at least a proactive emotion, but to turn it on yourself is like turning a gun on yourself in slow motion - I don't know which is better to be honest, it's like saying there's never a good reason to use a gun and if you must - make it for suicide - I disagree.

Not that either situation is a good setting for making decisions about how to use your negative emotions -

I'm also not sure I agree that Fe is the source of that desire to blame the world - I see so many INTJs (Fi) who love to say the world is horrible and make massive meals out of their misanthropy, I don't agree with misanthropy in the slightest because it seems like self-hatred written large upon the world in exchange for oneself - and I think humans for all their faults are still the most amazing thing in this universe - far beyond and above anything else, and I act in faith of that, unlike the misanthrope who hates humanity and thinks it should end but can't bear to end their own life.

@Llyralen - I did get something out of your point, the personal experience and locus of where you attribute the sources of your problems if diseased by depression according to you and thus unable to find your place or the belonging (peg hole) which makes you feel the things a human being has to feel in order to stay mentally attuned and healthy is yourself:


Clean Your Room - in my worst Jordan Petson Kermit voice, before trying to pretend you have any valid opinions on how the world works - it's just, I don't know if it marries up with what behavior I see displayed by Fe and Fi types - I see a lot of Fi types who still feel fit to preach about how the world should work whilst being unable to fix their own tiny piece of it first...
 
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You're right, (and although this thread wasn't about self-hatred), it is something I don't understand and I did actually gain perspective from @Llyralen on the subject, (it's why I was a little perplexed when I asked for a little further perspective on how it's different for INFPs / ENFPs that I instead got rounded upon as being "bitter" and incapable of understanding, it's not like I disagreed with the points about her own perspective on it).

However as much as I understand her point:

The person who is consumed by hatred as a crutch and an anaesthetic for their pain, be they:

A. Fi sitting in the mess of their own lives hating themselves for not being what they want to be.
B. Fe sitting in the mess of their own lives hating the world for not being what they want to be.

The outcome is still the same - the subject of their hatred is a useless, impotent object which they either won't change or can't change - and in fact that is necessary for them to feel the hatred which holds their pain at bay.

The thing I suppose I don't understand about self-hatred as opposed to hatred of something in the world is at the very least hatred of something in the world, if you can feel no positive emotion, is at least active - hatred is a nasty instinct but it equips you with the ability to get up and fight, it's at least a proactive emotion, but to turn it on yourself is like turning a gun on yourself in slow motion - I don't know which is better to be honest, it's like saying there's never a good reason to use a gun and if you must - make it for suicide - I disagree.

Not that either situation is a good setting for making decisions about how to use your negative emotions -
Self-hatred can become proactive by giving you the will to change, realistically speaking that's what happens most of the time, usually when the person finally finds some more positive environment to help them see another perspective, or they trust someone to help them, or in some other way start seeing a perspective on their own. For F doms change is more difficult because they're more attached to their conclusions. The attitude of taking it out on the world can have really serious consequences for innocent people and with intent not just as a side effect. Sometimes the way out for both sides is to give some room for the other perspective - that the world is actually at fault and shouldn't blame oneself, and vice versa.

I'm also not sure I agree that Fe is the source of that desire to blame the world - I see so many INTJs (Fi) who love to say the world is horrible and make massive meals out of their misanthropy, I don't agree with misanthropy in the slightest because it seems like self-hatred written large upon the world in exchange for oneself - and I think humans for all their faults are still the most amazing thing in this universe - far beyond and above anything else, and I act in faith of that, unlike the misanthrope who hates humanity and thinks it should end but can't bear to end their own life.

This is the fault of the 8 function systems to begin with because they're inconsistent and have little to do with Jung's original observations/premises that were based on psychology not artificially creating a "balanced" system and enforcing it.. TJs and FPs have fundamentally opposite ways of utilizing F, we don't share the same preferences, the inferior functions are meant as the worst. So, TJs are usually the worst offenders when it comes to hating the world because they not only repress F in general, but intropunitive feelings the most (Fi), taking blame for how they feel is distressing to even unbearable so they disengage from that state of mind quickly. So when their F is activated they'll firstly turn it on the world not themselves, as it maintains the J preference. My personal and close experience with TJs was one of the reasons I researched this more as it made no sense and voila I discovered that there's a lot of history behind it and many absurd liberties taken with how the types were set up by MB first and the others later.
It's not "Fe" but the J attitude in general. Though Jung called that introversion, not extraversion, but MB reversed the meaning in their judging functions to make it mean intro/extrapunitive basically. Like I said, lots of history...
 

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Discussion Starter #26

Clean Your Room - in my worst Jordan Petson Kermit voice, before trying to pretend you have any valid opinions on how the world works - it's just, I don't know if it marries up with what behavior I see displayed by Fe and Fi types - I see a lot of Fi types who still feel fit to preach about how the world should work whilst being unable to fix their own tiny piece of it first...
I went out with a girl who was an early Jordan Peterson acolyte and they were on a first name basis as she'd buy the platinum ticket and backstage pass for all his talks. She told me the story of how she created this rule for him. I believed her! Her idea was she couldn't engage in true change he called for in his early talks, until she literally cleaned her own place which would give a sense of readiness and purpose to improve the mental areas of her life. She ran it by him and he said that was a crystallization of his collective thoughts. She was an ENTJ.
 

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@Six. Maybe just cool down and re-read? I wouldn’t have written to you if I didn’t think you were capable of understanding, of course. So you implied a lot of things about me that I think I could take stronger issue with than I am.
What happened was, from what I saw. #1. You had a criticism and idea that ENFPs all experience self-hatred. I recognize that I think this is somewhat common with Fi, and wrote about its foil with Fe. I wrote with compassion because I feel compassion for both sides. I thought it would be fun to talk to you. It has sometimes been in the past.

#2. I wrote a lot about what it was like to experience the originality of Fi. You said you did not understand how Fi is original— fair enough, you can think what you like (actually I think it would be difficult to understand that from a IxxJ’s point of view— still I had faith that you would try). I had spent so much time explaining and so it felt like you blew off my whole explanation of the experience of Fi very quickly. Also the experiences I wrote about were based on my personal experience. So it felt like you blew off my whole self. Now, I know that I can’t go around taking things so personally so I took this dismissal of what I wrote in stride and did not take offense of what might be easy for you to not consider or to disagree with— but the fact remained that if you disagree with my whole explanation of Fi then how could any question about differences between INFPs and ENFPs be answered in a way that you would actually consider? Especially when your question housed a very harsh (to your way of thinking) criticism of ENFPs that I don’t think applies to all of us as I told you. I did address your question. I still was harboring you no I’ll feelings. Not any that would warrant your response, at least. I didn’t think what I said to you was harsh about being bitter. Many people face bitterness, but maybe you think it was too harsh. I’m surprised since it seems you want ENFPs to stop being so worried about happiness or something. I wrote with good will towards you anyway. I’ve taken a lot more criticism and made-up stuff from you than you’ve taken from me anyway, so just decide that you’ve won Or something. I’m still confused at how far you took this.

Also, thank you to @Red Panda for understanding and helping the whole thing. Much appreciated, truly.
 

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@Six. Maybe just cool down and re-read? I wouldn’t have written to you if I didn’t think you were capable of understanding, of course. So you implied a lot of things about me that I think I could take stronger issue with than I am.
What happened was, from what I saw. #1. You had a criticism and idea that ENFPs all experience self-hatred. I recognize that I think this is somewhat common with Fi, and wrote about its foil with Fe. I wrote with compassion because I feel compassion for both sides. I thought it would be fun to talk to you. It has sometimes been in the past.

#2. I wrote a lot about what it was like to experience the originality of Fi. You said you did not understand how Fi is original— fair enough, you can think what you like (actually I think it would be difficult to understand that from a IxxJ’s point of view— still I had faith that you would try). I had spent so much time explaining and so it felt like you blew off my whole explanation of the experience of Fi very quickly. Also the experiences I wrote about were based on my personal experience. So it felt like you blew off my whole self. Now, I know that I can’t go around taking things so personally so I took this dismissal of what I wrote in stride and did not take offense of what might be easy for you to not consider or to disagree with— but the fact remained that if you disagree with my whole explanation of Fi then how could any question about differences between INFPs and ENFPs be answered in a way that you would actually consider? Especially when your question housed a very harsh (to your way of thinking) criticism of ENFPs that I don’t think applies to all of us as I told you. I did address your question. I still was harboring you no I’ll feelings. Not any that would warrant your response, at least. I didn’t think what I said to you was harsh about being bitter. Many people face bitterness, but maybe you think it was too harsh. I’m surprised since it seems you want ENFPs to stop being so worried about happiness or something. I wrote with good will towards you anyway. I’ve taken a lot more criticism and made-up stuff from you than you’ve taken from me anyway, so just decide that you’ve won Or something. I’m still confused at how far you took this.

Also, thank you to @Red Panda for understanding and helping the whole thing. Much appreciated, truly.
I'll get around to replying I've just got a mountain of to-do lists atm
 
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I'll get around to replying I've just got a mountain of to-do lists atm
All is well. Real life comes first. I’m not sure I want to dig back into this unless you have something you want to ask.
I actually just want to know how it’s going with your house. And work. I hope it all comes together beautifully for you.
 

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I actually just want to know how it’s going with your house. And work. I hope it all comes together beautifully for you.
The views are.

Spectacular - I mean not even speaking from my windows, I mean around the island (not going to say which one) - it's wall-to-wall as if it was Zennor (where I'm from, where Morvah's gotten her name.) But Zennor is only one side, one sea view, here it's all sides - and it's things like that which make all the effort worthwhile - nobody locks their doors, I don't lock my doors, I leave my keys in the car - I saw a teeny girl with a black shetland pony laughing the other day, kids play in the street's harbour front - this is far cry from Brixton (where I was living) whilst I worked in London..

867612


867613


And I finally confirmed last week what cashflow looks like, after years, nearly 10 - of never spending, I'm here:



It's going to be huge, tremendous, I'm ordering in some chesterfields, all the colours:

Oxblood Durham (not this one but this colour)

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Blue Chamberlain Club

867615



Green Chamberlain (this colour not this one) - and this'll be my chair, given up only to the people I love and never the dog because she has to learn Lyralen, she's stubborn - she thinks she's the boss - but when the levee breaks:

867616


Gold (Yellow) Queen Anne - And no-one's going to like this one, yet someone will, someone is going to make this theirs - see its good side, and they're gonna feel affection for it.

867617


And that's it, except it's not Llyralen, you wait, this winter I'm making sure the business is sound, efficient, plugged, no longer hemorrhaging money, however Next Year? Ohhhh you just wait. Next year I'm going to have a shit 125 cc motorbike and a sidecar, I'm going to have a dorky raw shark helmet and she's gonna sit in the sidecar - she's not afraid of bikes - and she's going to join me to the main island where I'm going to get drunk - I'm going to drink 3 pints and start playing, start soft, just reach over - one hand, clair de lune:


Op 27 No 2:


Oh I'm so stylish and stupid - and then I'll leave, suddenly, someone's played with the dog, the girl who works there knows me - but I'm leaving Llyralen, 3 weeks later I'm buying some saxophone reeds (because they sell music stuff in that bar you see) - and you just wait, there is going to be all sorts of action.

Hodge Twins GIFs | Tenor






All kiiiinds
 
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Alright @Six. Sounds amazing. Our dog knows her importance as a family member here too. Actually throwing a ball to her on the beach with a “chuck it” is probably one of our mutual favorite activities. It was beautiful this morning down there. My beach has changed a lot this summer. Many tons of sand has arrived and been pushed up to where it’s almost an entirely new beach. Im walking on rock structures that used to be up above my shoulders. There is always something new or different down there.
The Queen Anne is great, btw. Have fun. I’m sure I will hear. You’ll want to find a keeper for your island, though, someday, and the chair.
 
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