It's funny, because when I was telling a friend about the characteristics of ENFPs the other day, when I got the part about being able to intuitively understand people and their words and actions, he looked taken aback and said.. "YOU? haha, you're horrible at that!" I was totally shocked until I realized that whenever I use this ability successfully, it's in my own head, whereas whenever I talk to him about trying to figure out other people, it's in regards to my love life, and yeah, I do tend to be horrible with that.

Honestly, I wish I knew the exact answer, but I don't. I think it's because ENFPs idealize people and try to see the good in them and refuse to admit they are bad without determining a direct reasoning behind it, which explains dating crazies (like the last INTJ I was completely smitten with... hah!) Or I'll just wish away the bad parts of the situation and focus on the good... in terms of not knowing if someone likes me, I do generally ALWAYS know. It's just being able to tell when someone DOESN'T like me when I WISH they would that creates the issue.

Viva, the whole love thing is me, oh so much. I can always tell when someone has a crush on me, but it's telling when they don't and I just really want them to have a crush on me is when it gets hard. x3

But yeah, you're pretty much right about the idealizing people thing. From personal experience, I have a really hard time focusing on the negative aspects of people. I can walk away from a conversation saying how interesting the person was. Then I hear a conversation about that person later talking about their negative characteristics. At first I'm shocked, but then I realize that I've noticed those characteristics too, ahaha x3

I think we notice them, just not...consciously?

In the past I was always able to tell when people liked me. It seemed kind of obvious, though I acted oblivious because I wanted to be persued...

But in most other aspects, I'm not good at determining the intent of other people and have had difficulties in relationships in the past (mostly when I was younger) due to t his. My doctor said it is a common problem for people with ADD (which I was diagnosed with having quite a severe case). Interestingly enough ENFPs seemt to be the poster child for ADD/ADHD in the minds of many.

There is something in Fi that seems to make you guys reluctant to make any sort of judgements about people. Understanding them, yes, sure, but making judgements about them....I recognise this so well among my family members now. I think it's the reason they all think I am a bit challenging, because if someone has done something less than good I will say so, and they find it really, really hard to hear, and tell me off. Other ENFPs I know feel it would be intrusive and imappropriate to, say, guess someone's MB type, and in one case, to do a stage performance that would make people sad, she felt it was wrong to be controlling other peoples' feelings.

I think it's easy for us to assume the best in other people. We like to hope that an individual that truly is bad for us is good, they will change, they don't have whatever behavior is negative, etc... I have had plenty of instances in dating where I'd date god awful people and all my friends would tell me to ditch the loser. It is not until you are pretty much slapped in the face (either literally or figuratively) that you realize somebody is bad news.

I don't think we are good at holding grudges either. I think we may forgive too easily.

As for telling if people like me, I can usually tell crushes (I am very rarely wrong about that. If I am, usually within a few months my predictions come true). For friends, it's a lot more difficult. I don't know why. I just like to assume people like me, and if they don't... I try not to get too hung up over it.

I think when we feel comfortable in our shoes and doing what comes natural to us, we are great at deciphering people. But the problem is that most of us are somewhat all over the place, and we don't necessarily feel comfortable most of the time. If we actually have to think about what we are going to do, it doesn't seem to come out nearly as successfully compared to when we are just doing something no big deal to us.

I pretty much know a person motives in the beginning. But I have a part of me that says give the person the benefit of the doubt. I realize that people have both negative and positive qualities. But I focus on the positive qualities not the negative ones.

I have a hard time determining if a person likes me. I don't know why. I literally need a guy to hang up a sign that says " I like you" because I will always assume that a guy doesn't like me. Because I learned from my past mistakes.

On the plus side, at least you actually get a love life.


So, a few follow up questions:

How does the idealization process work, is it conscious, subconscious? Do you do it with everyone, or just whoever your crushing on at the moment?

It's funny, because when I was telling a friend about the characteristics of ENFPs the other day, when I got the part about being able to intuitively understand people and their words and actions, he looked taken aback and said.. "YOU? haha, you're horrible at that!" I was totally shocked until I realized that whenever I use this ability successfully, it's in my own head, whereas whenever I talk to him about trying to figure out other people, it's in regards to my love life, and yeah, I do tend to be horrible with that.

Click to expand...

For me the idealization process is conscious. And I do it with my crush, not with everybody. I pretty much give everybody the benefit of the doubt.

Inquiery said:

On the plus side, at least you actually get a love life.


So, a few follow up questions:

How does the idealization process work, is it conscious, subconscious? Do you do it with everyone, or just whoever your crushing on at the moment?

Click to expand...

I think we're great at knowing what other people want, but not what we want. :tongue:

So true! What I want is always changing!

WMDistraction said:

I think we're great at knowing what other people want, but not what we want. :tongue:

Click to expand...

I'm so fickle, especially when it comes to dating. I had a long story typed up, but I'll give you the short version because it sounds less self-obsessed:

There was a girl (ENFP) I wanted to date, so I invited her to see Inception, since she mentioned that she wanted to see it. I kinda thought she may have similar feelings toward me, but I wasn't sure--hence the movie. However, by the time we saw The Other Guys together, I made zero advances to figure it out because I convinced myself that it wasn't worth it, especially since she's a senior in HS and I'm a sophomore in college. Yay!

While this is reasonable, I usually don't keep these things in mind until after I start dating her--"her" being in the abstract sense. The worst part is, I kind of regret not doing that now. I really need to make up my mind, dammit.

But my whole life is like that, too. You can see it in the way I handle my money, in the way I play games... it permeates my life. I consider a purchase, only to back out on it because it's a bit beyond my comfort zone for pricing; even though I'm 90% sure I'd love to have it, and paying the price would be completely worth it. When I play a game, I'm either 100% passive or 100% aggressive because I don't want to show that I am fickle to the other player--I want to die in 100% confidence... even though I'd probably live if I showed 50%. Hell, today I couldn't decide whether I wanted the pizza leftovers or the chicken leftovers, and my ENTP friend's like, "Dude... just get a little of both... It's not an exclusive choice."

The worst part is, I usually realize when I'm doing this.

Love Obsessed said:

So true! What I want is always changing!

Click to expand...

I pretty much know when someone likes me or dislikes me. But sometimes I purposely ignore when they like me because it's like "ew" to me.

I really understand individuals and really see things from their perspective. Because I am so busy "removing self" and trying to clearly experience the other person's perspective, I put my subjective opinions on hold. This is not a bad thing to do when helping or counseling people. Really trying to understand where a person is at and not judge them, only validate them and encourage them to move forward is very very good.

However, I do tend to use this in potentially romantic relationships as well. This is not good. I am so busy seeing things from the other person's perspective, I am only examining myself objectively, thus putting my personal tastes and judgements on hold. I suspend them because I am so used to doing this. Plus when I see my self objectively, I am constantly taking inventory not of the other person, but of myself. I look to see where I may be the cause or if there was anything I did wrong. I am seeing myself TOO objectively. I am not judging the other person which I should be because I hardly know them. Instead, I am only critically judging myself just so I can sleep with myself at night. Just so I can look in a mirror in the morning. The ability to self reflect and be honest with myself, is a big value of mine.

But while in these situations if I continue and I am in "objective self mode", I usually get a wake up call somewhere along the way that confirms what I knew from the beginning: the person isn't right for me. The wake up call usually comes when they hit upon when of my core values BIG time. Something that I figured they'd probably do in the beginning but then somewhere along the way, I started to spin off into "objective self mode". Obviously self objective mode is not very good for self protection at all. Because once I'm there I am only experiencing the other person's perspectives, not judging them, yet only judging myself. It's not in a harsh way, but I am not being fair to myself by being the only one I am judging.

So it's not that I'm attracted to bad types. Everyone first starts with a clean slate with me. But because of Ne, I can identify things that are not good with this other person pretty fast. Within a few minutes, I can identify that this person is not good for me. Instead of going further with communication I need to stop right there. I don't need to jump into his skin and feel how I would feel if I was rejected. When I am cutting myself off from a person, I don't need to experience what the other person is feeling. When I meet a potential partner that I immediately pick up is not good for meit is important that I remind myself: "Judging by this person's behavior, they are not right for me. I saw it within the first 2 minutes of knowing the person. I know the patterns VERY well and I catch on quicker than most people. But I don't need to tell them that or justify it to them. If I continue to talk to them, I will eventually go into counselor mode and only see things from their perspective, thus leaving me and my values abandoned. So it's best for me to stay away and listen to my original intuition regardless if someone else agrees with it or not."

Inquiery said:

ENFP are great with people, which makes it so confusing that don't seem able to make tough judgments about people.

For example, they're known for dating crazies, or not knowing when someone likes them.

How does this decision making process occur? My theory is you guys are great "in the moment" with deciphering people, but when you go back to think about people alone your are more or less lost? Do you convince yourself out or into things?

Is this close to the mark?

Click to expand...

Pinkrasputin,


Do you ever think about how you could be hurting someone you know isn't good for you in the long run? Your taking up time and energy that could be used to find someone they'rereally compatible with. Would they really want to be with you if they knew you didn't really want to be with them?


You could also be doing the same. Finding someone you really like, and who really likes you back. That's potentially 4 happy people. Wouldn't that be a "noble" approach to dating? Is this ever considered?

I am entirely with you on this. It seems like this sort of stuff is always on the verge of happening to me. It's just that I have good days where I don't let it affect me, and bad days where it gets in the way. I find that when I'm at my most decisive I want what others want... like, "coincidentally" (by intuition), or "logically" (by deduction). It's almost like wanting nothing all the time, but in a western, socially acceptable way. Hah, I'm not sure if that makes any sense, let me get back to you on that.

WMDistraction said:

I'm so fickle, especially when it comes to dating. I had a long story typed up, but I'll give you the short version because it sounds less self-obsessed:

There was a girl (ENFP) I wanted to date, so I invited her to see Inception, since she mentioned that she wanted to see it. I kinda thought she may have similar feelings toward me, but I wasn't sure--hence the movie. However, by the time we saw The Other Guys together, I made zero advances to figure it out because I convinced myself that it wasn't worth it, especially since she's a senior in HS and I'm a sophomore in college. Yay!

While this is reasonable, I usually don't keep these things in mind until after I start dating her--"her" being in the abstract sense. The worst part is, I kind of regret not doing that now. I really need to make up my mind, dammit.

But my whole life is like that, too. You can see it in the way I handle my money, in the way I play games... it permeates my life. I consider a purchase, only to back out on it because it's a bit beyond my comfort zone for pricing; even though I'm 90% sure I'd love to have it, and paying the price would be completely worth it. When I play a game, I'm either 100% passive or 100% aggressive because I don't want to show that I am fickle to the other player--I want to die in 100% confidence... even though I'd probably live if I showed 50%. Hell, today I couldn't decide whether I wanted the pizza leftovers or the chicken leftovers, and my ENTP friend's like, "Dude... just get a little of both... It's not an exclusive choice."

The worst part is, I usually realize when I'm doing this.

Click to expand...

I'm like that too, I'm very indecisive. But sometimes, I push myself to make a decision. I just don't think about it I just do it- I rarely regret making the decision. For instance, picking food or buying clothing. You should try it too. But there are times when it's best to put off making a decision, until you have all the information or feel like it's the right moment to act. It's an enfp thing. Always waiting for the right moment to act.

WMDistraction said:

I'm so fickle, especially when it comes to dating. I had a long story typed up, but I'll give you the short version because it sounds less self-obsessed:

There was a girl (ENFP) I wanted to date, so I invited her to see Inception, since she mentioned that she wanted to see it. I kinda thought she may have similar feelings toward me, but I wasn't sure--hence the movie. However, by the time we saw The Other Guys together, I made zero advances to figure it out because I convinced myself that it wasn't worth it, especially since she's a senior in HS and I'm a sophomore in college. Yay!

While this is reasonable, I usually don't keep these things in mind until after I start dating her--"her" being in the abstract sense. The worst part is, I kind of regret not doing that now. I really need to make up my mind, dammit.

But my whole life is like that, too. You can see it in the way I handle my money, in the way I play games... it permeates my life. I consider a purchase, only to back out on it because it's a bit beyond my comfort zone for pricing; even though I'm 90% sure I'd love to have it, and paying the price would be completely worth it. When I play a game, I'm either 100% passive or 100% aggressive because I don't want to show that I am fickle to the other player--I want to die in 100% confidence... even though I'd probably live if I showed 50%. Hell, today I couldn't decide whether I wanted the pizza leftovers or the chicken leftovers, and my ENTP friend's like, "Dude... just get a little of both... It's not an exclusive choice."

The worst part is, I usually realize when I'm doing this.

Click to expand...

The problem is, I usually say in the beginning "We are not right for each other". And in my experience it has only increased their need to "chase". They don't care. The want to "do" the relationship and experience it if it's right or not. They think I'm passing judgment and don't know what I'm talking about because the relationship hasn't happened. They give the old "You gotta at least try it".

And if I do decide to try it, and I see it's not working I often say directly "we are incompatible". And then they say "No, we aren't incompatible, we just need _____________". Yeah, I've heard this so often I can't tell you.

I've learned the biggest way I can help a guy who approaches me that I don't really want to be with or that I don't find attractive, is to be honest and say "No thank you. I am not physically attracted to you." Now this was suggested by a guy friend of mine. He said I would be doing all men a favor if I was honest like that. But even when I've done this, the pushy ones can remain the pushy ones.

I've also tried the "We are intellectually incompatible", but unfortunately those that I am not intellectually compatible with, rarely understand the comment and just ask "Where would you like to go tonight?"

So there you have it. I don't like to waste a person's time, and I wouldn't like my time to be wasted either. I've gotten easily swayed or convinced because I'm too busy seeing their side of things and caring about their feelings over my own. But I want to be very clear. They know how I feel about things, they just ignore it or try and convince otherwise. And because I am trying to see things from their way, I have often given in. But only to be reminded later that my original convictions were accurate.

Inquiery said:

Pinkrasputin,


Do you ever think about how you could be hurting someone you know isn't good for you in the long run? Your taking up time and energy that could be used to find someone they'rereally compatible with. Would they really want to be with you if they knew you didn't really want to be with them?


You could also be doing the same. Finding someone you really like, and who really likes you back. That's potentially 4 happy people. Wouldn't that be a "noble" approach to dating? Is this ever considered?

Click to expand...

Jeez, where do you find these people?


Your experience is completely different than mine. People find me super intimidating, and I have no trouble rejecting others.

You could always try the "I have a boyfriend" line.

"I have a boyfriend line" is passive aggressive and usually just makes them wait until the guy is gone, or they try to cock block him. It sends the guy the wrong message in that he thinks the only reason I'm not interested in him is because I have this boyfriend. No, it's better to be upfront.

And yes, I know you are like that. You are an INTJ. My INTJ ex was MUCH different from those others. Once I shut the door on the relationship, he NEVER asked for me back.:crying: And actually from him, I would have liked a little chasing. I regretted it after I did it. He was incredibly decisive in a non-emotional way, and I found that completely and utterly sexy. I think I wanted to be him. :happy:

Okay. I wasn't going to talk about INTJs anymore.

Inquiery said:

Jeez, where do you find these people?


Your experience is completely different than mine. People find me super intimidating, and I have no trouble rejecting others.

You could always try the "I have a boyfriend" line.

Click to expand...

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who pretends not to notice when someone likes me (usually because I enjoy the stage of flirting, and my preference to be the "chaser" not the "chased"). Honestly, I think most ENFPs are pretty great at reading people; acting on it or using that knowledge directly, however, is a different matter all together. What to do with the information when you don't know what you want (multiple values, logic versus emotion, etc.)? Or would like to keep the possibility open ended? Or see multiple alternative possibilities? Sometimes, I even end up take one choice half way, decide I was not being genuine, and take a 360 turn.

Inquiery said:

ENFP are great with people, which makes it so confusing that don't seem able to make tough judgments about people.

For example, they're known for dating crazies, or not knowing when someone likes them.

How does this decision making process occur? My theory is you guys are great "in the moment" with deciphering people, but when you go back to think about people alone your are more or less lost? Do you convince yourself out or into things?

Is this close to the mark?

Click to expand...

The personal value based system of Fi tends to naturally make us hate being judged or misunderstood; That fact combined with Ne-Fi's tendency to utilize empathy (instead of sympathy,) may be the cause for our reluctance to pass judgment upon others. I think this can work the other way, however. I've seen some ENFP quickly turn judgmental when the person's action goes directly against their values (the "fiery temper" attributed to those who are more emotional, passionate, and/or dependent on their Fi.)

Also, as for the "idolization," part...at least in my case, it's because I'm prioritizing and focusing my attention on my values instead of the person in front of me. Thus the problems are:

1. The person becomes the part of my "value" and thus in my sphere of protection. I wouldn't want to harm it/insult it.
2. Finding out that what I felt for the person (idolization, or love, or whatever it may be) may be false, or not genuine, is a frightening thought. The staple ENFP "strive for true self" (though it often ironically causes me to hide behind my false self even more).
3. I have high internal locus of control and is seeing the relationship in relative to self (including the other person's perception), but is unwilling to admit it.
4. I like the situation that is being "acted out", love of self who is in "love".
5. Overconfidence and high adaptability gives illusion of the situation being "a trial to over come"

Although these attributes makes relationships often rocky, it's hard to define whether it's "wrong" or "right", nor can I rule out the possibility that this can still be considered love. I do, however, try to refrain from getting into such situation as much as possible because, as exciting as it may be, I doubt it's enjoyable for the people around me.

----

And...I know this was for Pink, but

Do you ever think about how you could be hurting someone you know isn't good for you in the long run?

Click to expand...

I've done this too many times. Sometimes, it's for experience, sometimes it's me being stubborn. Most of the time, it's me being unreasonably confident about my ability to "make it work". Because I have a hard time understanding and trusting both my own and my partner's feelings/thoughts, indecisiveness and the prospect of countless possibilities kicks in.

I was going to write more, but too tired + my dislike of open audience impersonal conversation's kicking in. Clicking submit before I delete the post! :crazy: