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Discussion Starter #1
So, I'm an ENFP and I've tried to figure this one out. I've taken several enneagram tests and they go between a 4w3 and 4w5. I am outgoing, but very individualistic. I try to live up to people's expectations of me in a social sphere, but I proudly tell them who I am (purple lady, sweet lolita-Japanese street fashion, do not litter nor swear, socially aware, etc). I feel guily when I do not live up to my own individualistic expectations and also guilty when I do not live up to other's expectations of me. I do not feel introverted, but sometimes I end up needing alone time to process changes in my life or when I try and focus on things that would increase my success in life, like writing and job hunting. I do want to be successful, but happy in doing what I do how I want to do it... just had that argument with my mom.

Any thoughts or clarifications? Thanks!
 
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It's not uncommon for Ne-doms (ENxP) to need some alone time.

I believe 4w3 is considered to be more outgoing than 4w5, due to the 3 wing. A 5 wing would add the influence of a withdrawn wing to an already withdrawn type.

From http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/3733-type-4-romantic.html
Fours with a strong Three wing (4w3) tend to be energetic, active, outgoing, competitive, ambitious, attention-seeking, and elitist. They often are more lively.

Fours with a strong Five wing (4w5) tend to be objective, quiet, unconventional, original, enigmatic, alienated, pessimistic, analytical, and withdrawn. They often are more responsible with a more contemplative or intellectual personality.

Occasionally, people present the persona of one of their wings - rather than their actual type - to the outside world.
Ditch the tests; they're obviously no longer useful for you. What you need to do is read as many different descriptions as you can, and see what you relate to more.

Some starting points:

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/39234-enneatype-4-wings.html

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/8815-overview-four-its-wings.html

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/65604-type-four-individualist-timeless-description.html
 
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From this [Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5 :

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.


This happens to me all of the time--this + Ne makes me feel fluid and ever changing.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".

4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.


4w5 descriptions are always so freaking negative, though.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
I found this description before. I do not feel entitled and elite. I feel that everyone has a gift. I'm just lucky that I know my gifts better than some and I still need improvement. But I do show off my talents and am quick to act goofy. I like to impress people and bring out smiles. But most people like who I am, at least at work, even if they do not quite understand me. I will censure myself if people are way left or right, but I do not hang out with people who judge others for being themselves. I rarely feel fake at all.

I feel guilty that I haven't lived up to expectations, but I put those expectations as priority on my list, if I wasn't so busy being distracted by fun events and such. I am happy with my persona, but I felt at a young age that the world didn't accept my kind of goofiness and inclusive nature. Therefore I do feel I suffered for it through schooling and because my family do not understand.

I don't know.
 

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This might seem like crazy talk around here, but maybe you're just a balanced 4?
 

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I found this description before. I do not feel entitled and elite. I feel that everyone has a gift. I'm just lucky that I know my gifts better than some and I still need improvement. But I do show off my talents and am quick to act goofy. I like to impress people and bring out smiles. But most people like who I am, at least at work, even if they do not quite understand me. I will censure myself if people are way left or right, but I do not hang out with people who judge others for being themselves. I rarely feel fake at all.

I feel guilty that I haven't lived up to expectations, but I put those expectations as priority on my list, if I wasn't so busy being distracted by fun events and such. I am happy with my persona, but I felt at a young age that the world didn't accept my kind of goofiness and inclusive nature. Therefore I do feel I suffered for it through schooling and because my family do not understand.

I don't know.
What about the other descriptions? Have you found anything that feels like you?

Next step would be to copy and paste them into, say, a word document and bold all that applies to you, and maybe strikethrough the ones that don't. Then look to see if one stands out more than the other.

If you still can't decide, you might have balanced wings. It's rare, but rare doesn't mean impossible.
 
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What about the other descriptions? Have you found anything that feels like you?

Next step would be to copy and paste them into, say, a word document and bold all that applies to you, and maybe strikethrough the ones that don't. Then look to see if one stands out more than the other.

If you still can't decide, you might have balanced wings. It's rare, but rare doesn't mean impossible.
That sounds good! I'll do it!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Figured it out!!! I'm a 4w3.

I feel compelled to show others what I create. I am colorful and flashy at times, and poo poo on people who say I should dress more mainstream.

Though I need my personal time, I usually use it to create and then I'm back out, showing it off. I'm not competitive though and not jealous per se (I want to be happy alongside you, not steal and enjoy your happiness), but I get energy from making people smile when they see what I can do. But I do take it personally when someone says my creations need work and only focus on the negative.
 
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You get energy from making people smile? You do seem very...upbeat...for a 4...but okay.

If you are a 4, then def 4w3 yes.
You can usually tell by the clothing alone. Bit boring and not show-offy - > 4w5
Different and showoffy-> 4w3

Im a balanced 4 according to the test, but I think thats because I was raised by a 5, so that compensated my 3 wing.
 

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You get energy from making people smile? You do seem very...upbeat...for a 4...but okay.

If you are a 4, then def 4w3 yes.
You can usually tell by the clothing alone. Bit boring and not show-offy - > 4w5
Different and showoffy-> 4w3

Im a balanced 4 according to the test, but I think thats because I was raised by a 5, so that compensated my 3 wing.
I am generally a happy person, that is who I am. I am bubbly and excitable and colorful. But when I don't get to be that way, which is often in this dry and gray world, I go into a shell and get depressed.

I look a lot into who I am, and being myself is very important. When people do not understand me, I try to help them understand. When that doesn't happen with people close to me, I can become a bit introverted, looking for ways to make things better on my end, and blame it on myself. Throughout childhood, I went through crying binges where I thought no one understood me. As an adult, I know that my mom tries, and I love her for that, but she doesn't get me. My best friend doesn't either, and I stopped looking for a boyfriend who could.

When people harshly criticize my creations I take it personally and I'll either promptly try to fix it or get pissy and say screw them (but not out loud- I don't like being mean to others). I dream and daydream frequently, so my creativeness is really coming from the depths of me.

When I turned 30 I noticed that I started getting super sensitive and emotional at everything. A kid crying on the bus (I commute to work) can make me tear up. I think I relate to others on another level. They might not appreciate or understand why I care, but I do. I just wish everyone could be happy. Maybe around that time I realized that happiness will be impossible for some people, due to their own rejection of happiness and things that could help them achieve their goal.

The tests say I am a 4 due to my strong ties to being different from everyone else, for being sensitive, and for trying to delve into who I am.

So, no. I'm only upbeat about 50% of the time (I have this ability to live in the moment and be happy for a while, even in sad times), reflective about 25% of the time, and too busy working the rest of the time.
 

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You get energy from making people smile? You do seem very...upbeat...for a 4...but okay.

If you are a 4, then def 4w3 yes.
You can usually tell by the clothing alone. Bit boring and not show-offy - > 4w5
Different and showoffy-> 4w3
Well I don't know about that. My clothing tends to get comments like, "only you could wear that!" or "I'm surprised how reserved you are, considering how you dress", but I'm a 4w5 through and through.

I don't see anything in Cutegasm's posts that would make me doubt a 4 core. Of course stereotypically the 4's are all emo kids, but in the higher levels of health we learn to embrace the happier emotions as well as our darker ones. Not to mention 7 and 9 fixes bring a bit more positivity (which I know from my own experience).
 

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Well I don't know about that. My clothing tends to get comments like, "only you could wear that!" or "I'm surprised how reserved you are, considering how you dress", but I'm a 4w5 through and through.

I don't see anything in Cutegasm's posts that would make me doubt a 4 core. Of course stereotypically the 4's are all emo kids, but in the higher levels of health we learn to embrace the happier emotions as well as our darker ones. Not to mention 7 and 9 fixes bring a bit more positivity (which I know from my own experience).
True. I'm a part of a lolita society (Japanese street fashion). These women get dressed in lace and ruffles and look like porcelain dolls. The dresses are very showy, fluffy, and expensive. Some of the women are lifestyle lolitas, which means that they wear the outfits, or at least part of them, every day. We all share the same story of being unique and doing what we want to do. I wonder what types everyone in the society is? I know two girls that I associate with who are very reserved. maybe they are 4ws. I will have to investigate.
 

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True. I'm a part of a lolita society (Japanese street fashion). These women get dressed in lace and ruffles and look like porcelain dolls. The dresses are very showy, fluffy, and expensive. Some of the women are lifestyle lolitas, which means that they wear the outfits, or at least part of them, every day. We all share the same story of being unique and doing what we want to do. I wonder what types everyone in the society is? I know two girls that I associate with who are very reserved. maybe they are 4ws. I will have to investigate.
One of my friends is involved in a local lolita group - most of the time I see her she's dressed up so I think she only avoids it if it's not practical. I would say she's a 4w5 though, because there's a real intellectual approach to her self-discovery. Her attitude towards fashion is a similar approach to mine, in that it's expressing who we are on the inside and people don't have to like it or even notice it. Restricting oneself to play by the rules, or to present a more consistent image is undesirable.

I could imagine it being a very 4-heavy environment. If not the core type, at least a strong fix.
 
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My whatever-she-is does lolita. She's also a 4. I just knew you were a lolita from the way you were describing your approach to wearing clothes. ;-) Do you do sweet or goth?

An easy way to split 4w5 and 4w3 is which influences you more?

Admiration 3 > 4 > 5 > Anxiety
 

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My whatever-she-is does lolita. She's also a 4. I just knew you were a lolita from the way you were describing your approach to wearing clothes. ;-) Do you do sweet or goth?

An easy way to split 4w5 and 4w3 is which influences you more?

Admiration 3 > 4 > 5 > Anxiety
I'm a sweet lolita mostly, but the good purple outfits are gothic, so I have one gothic jumper I couldn't pass up. I am in the market for a lolita coat and probably will end up with a gothic one just because it's hard to find a plus sized lavender lolita coat.

When I'm stressed, anxiety takes over. I can get lethargic and confused as to what to do. I start asking lots of questions for more research to make a decision. But I base my decisions also on admiration. If I'm not admired or at least respected for who I am or my talents, then I tend to back away. Admiration definitely influences me more and gets me into action!
 

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When I'm stressed, anxiety takes over. I can get lethargic and confused as to what to do. I start asking lots of questions for more research to make a decision. But I base my decisions also on admiration. If I'm not admired or at least respected for who I am or my talents, then I tend to back away. Admiration definitely influences me more and gets me into action!
Sounds like balanced 4.

I know a lot of people on this forum assume that everyone has a wing, but it's my opinion that about a third of people are balanced core types, while the other thirds are leaning more on each wing respectively. The mechanisms that make up Enneatypes are essentially the influences of the two types on either side of it. I'm certainly a balanced 4. 5 and 3 influence me depending on my circumstances. If you had a wing, even in a circumstance where the other influence should be active your strategy would be to react with the wing's influence.

For examples, if you were a 3 wing, instead of getting anxious and researching, you'd push more into 3's need to impress people as a defense mechanism, likely getting others to deal with it for you (integration to 6) or just ignoring the problem (disintegration to 9) as irrelevant because it doesn't make you more awesome (3).

...if you were a 5 wing, instead of being motivated by admiration, you'd push more into 5's need to be autonomous as a defense mechanism, likely taking charge and overcoming your vulnerabilities in the situation (integration to 8) or creating a plan of attack to deal with the situation (disintegration to 7) because it is making you uncomfortable not being self sufficient (5).

A balanced 4 does both in lesser measure, focusing on their need to be valued as individuals to overcome their inherent sense of worthlessness. "No really, I have value because that thing *I* like has value and I am that." It's the 3 need for admiration and the 5 need for autonomy, merged, and why at our core we feel worthless and disconnected, allowing us to transcend 'normal' but also compelling us to do so to compensate.
 
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