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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, INTPs. Hear me out, will you?

I have no idea why this is. It's not like I know 10,000 INTPs super well or anything like that. But there seems to be something about the way INTPs think that just fascinates me. Time and again. Unfailingly.

My closest friend is an INTP. I've known him my whole life (although we became friends later). He is definitely one of the most truly Introverted people I know (that's not to say he's antisocial - just textbook Introvert). I think that might be a Ti-thing. I've known many Introverts, and not all of them were so obviously withdrawn into their minds as I have seen him. Even when he's interacting with people, I can watch him thinking and I know he's internalizing everything.

It was so interesting. Maybe it was the Ne. But I just thought, "I want to understand how he thinks."

What is it about INTPs and that abstract thinking? I don't even know how it happened, but we began talking to each other about philosophy. Not just existentialism or anything. Really abstract things about existence itself. Perspectives. Epistemology. There was so much of just defining things. I brought up a lot of stuff about personality and psychology too. But seriously, we could be talking about anything and it would almost always come back to something incredibly abstract. Which I loved.

He thinks in a much more linear fashion than me. That is, he actually forges a chain of reasoning. It's something I've noticed most INTPs do when they're thinking about something. That's not to say every INTP is a logical person at all. But just talking about how I've noted you guys think. Which is an observation that could be totally off the wall. But it's very different in feeling to Te, which I've noted often in my ESTJ sister. It's actually quite the opposite. Haha, one time my friend told me he didn't understand the way my sister thought. It was too "top-down". It was too much like just gathering a bunch of stuff from outside and then deciding. I actually laughed, because in a simple observation and not knowing any personality theory, he had articulated an essential difference between Te and Ti.

I don't think linearly. I don't take the time to form a chain of reasoning in the same way he does. I'm more associative, finding relationships and meaning between multiple ideas, which then remind me of other things. But according to him, sometimes I'd make connections faster than he could realize them. And then later he'd realize they were valid.

I laughed, because over half the time, I don't realize (and sometimes I don't even care to know) whether the crazy connections I make are valid. It's all in the fun of pursuing ideas. But talking to him about anything was simply fun and energizing. Interesting.

I wonder if this is characteristic of an INTP/ENFP relationship. Thoughts? Ideas? comments?
@arkigos, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
 

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The Ne dominant in ENFPs and the Ne auxiliary in INTPs is what really draws us together. INTPs filter and generate possibilities through Ti while ENFPs do it through Fi. It's like having two possibility generating machines working together from opposite ends of a spectrum both working to conceive every idea imaginable. If you put an ENFP and an INTP together, there isn't any possibility real or imagined that they couldn't conceive together. Both love and appreciate the other's creativity and unique perspective.

There's nothing in the water, it's just how we typically are together. I absolutely heart my ENFP friend, I wish I had more of them! We don't care about the mundane details that drag everyone else down. Sure we might not be the best at dealing with practical matters like paying the bills, but at least we conquer those demons together and imagine defeating a fiery dragon or who the hell knows what in the process.

I also really appreciate how ENFPs have more natural energy and enthusiasm for things while not being a complete extravert's extravert. This helps us get our of our heads and explore some of those possibilities out in the real world together.

I don't really date based on MBTI, but if I had to choose a person to be with based solely on type it would be ENFP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
@joshman108, and here I was thinking there was the distinct possibility that was just a me-thing. But as I've said many times, people to me are puzzles. As a general rule, Introverts are the most interesting puzzles for me to solve. There's the challenge of guessing what's on their mind.

@Iaokim, thanks for the input. :) I know this is funny, but sometimes I barely even notice Fi. For me, Ne is so much more apparent. When I'm thinking about things - particularly if they're abstract - I'm not even really thinking about worth or making any such judgment. It's like I'm just trying take in all the ideas at their purest. Do you ever feel in your discussions with ENFPs that they focus too much on worth? Like their understanding is missing something? I'm just curious. ^_^

I also really appreciate how ENFPs have more natural energy and enthusiasm for things while not being a complete extravert's extravert. This helps us get our of our heads and explore some of those possibilities out in the real world together.
And I truly appreciate you saying that. There's such a stereotype that extroverts are always trying to make introverts uncomfortable by forcing them to talk about stuff they don't want to and do things they don't want to. So, thanks. ^^ I think I'm very much the Extrovert. I can even stereotypically be quite the social butterfly. But part of that is because I'm always matching my behavior based on who I'm with. It's to better understand them and make them feel more comfortable. It allows me to better guess at how they're feeling or what they might be thinking.
 

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@joshman108, and here I was thinking there was the distinct possibility that was just a me-thing. But as I've said many times, people to me are puzzles. As a general rule, Introverts are the most interesting puzzles for me to solve. There's the challenge of guessing what's on their mind.
Thats the fun part for me. It's pretty easy knowing what's on your mind. So I get to sit here watching you guys be all cute working like crazy trying to unravel the infinite mystery of it all. Lol.
 

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Maybe it is just me but I am absolutely not a linear thinker. I still form a solid chain of reasoning but there is absolutely nothing linear about it which seems to confuse people often.
 

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Hello, INTPs. Hear me out, will you?

I have no idea why this is. It's not like I know 10,000 INTPs super well or anything like that. But there seems to be something about the way INTPs think that just fascinates me. Time and again. Unfailingly.

My closest friend is an INTP. I've known him my whole life (although we became friends later). He is definitely one of the most truly Introverted people I know (that's not to say he's antisocial - just textbook Introvert). I think that might be a Ti-thing. I've known many Introverts, and not all of them were so obviously withdrawn into their minds as I have seen him. Even when he's interacting with people, I can watch him thinking and I know he's internalizing everything.

It was so interesting. Maybe it was the Ne. But I just thought, "I want to understand how he thinks."

What is it about INTPs and that abstract thinking? I don't even know how it happened, but we began talking to each other about philosophy. Not just existentialism or anything. Really abstract things about existence itself. Perspectives. Epistemology. There was so much of just defining things. I brought up a lot of stuff about personality and psychology too. But seriously, we could be talking about anything and it would almost always come back to something incredibly abstract. Which I loved.

He thinks in a much more linear fashion than me. That is, he actually forges a chain of reasoning. It's something I've noticed most INTPs do when they're thinking about something. That's not to say every INTP is a logical person at all. But just talking about how I've noted you guys think. Which is an observation that could be totally off the wall. But it's very different in feeling to Te, which I've noted often in my ESTJ sister. It's actually quite the opposite. Haha, one time my friend told me he didn't understand the way my sister thought. It was too "top-down". It was too much like just gathering a bunch of stuff from outside and then deciding. I actually laughed, because in a simple observation and not knowing any personality theory, he had articulated an essential difference between Te and Ti.

I don't think linearly. I don't take the time to form a chain of reasoning in the same way he does. I'm more associative, finding relationships and meaning between multiple ideas, which then remind me of other things. But according to him, sometimes I'd make connections faster than he could realize them. And then later he'd realize they were valid.

I laughed, because over half the time, I don't realize (and sometimes I don't even care to know) whether the crazy connections I make are valid. It's all in the fun of pursuing ideas. But talking to him about anything was simply fun and energizing. Interesting.

I wonder if this is characteristic of an INTP/ENFP relationship. Thoughts? Ideas? comments?
@arkigos, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Maybe it is just me but I am absolutely not a linear thinker. I still form a solid chain of reasoning but there is absolutely nothing linear about it which seems to confuse people often.
I'd have to agree with you. I'm not a linear thinker, either. I prefer to label the way I think as a matrix. Everything is connected to everything else. All the information and theories I possess are fitted into the matrix and each point within is capable of being connected to an infinite amount of other points in three-dimensional space.

For example: the chicken (bird) can be connected to the dog because they're both animals. The chicken can be connected to eggs. The chicken can be connected to chicken cordon bleu. To feathers, to corn, to coops, to farms, to almost anything. It's when a theory or action needs to be made that the linearity develops. Then all the steps come about and logical soundness is checked. If I want to make chicken cordon bleu, I can cook it four ways (well more, but you get the idea). I can deep fry it, shallow fry it, brown it in the pan first before baking, or straight bake it. All of these methods of cooking have their own connected matrices, as well, as does everything else. For three methods, I can use a frying pan. For one I can use a pot or a deep fryer. I can see so many ways to getting to the same outcome just by the method alone. How am I going to open the chicken breast? Am I going to butterfly it, should I slice it into thin sheets, or pound it out with the meat mallet? What kind of fat should I fry it in or what kind of breadcrumbs should I use? Will I season it this way or that? The matrix has all of these things connected and depending on the exact desired outcome, I can pick any one that fits the logic of the final product I with to realize.

Keirsey said INTJs were the masters of order, of sequence, of linearity. INTPs are the masters of organization, categories, interconnectivity. We can do linear; it's not a problem and our logic is sound but I can pull six things out of left, right, and center field plus the dugout, the stands and the concession and make them all fit together within a logically sound framework that would make most people's heads explode as to how I came to that conclusion in that amount of time without paper or a computer or looking anything up. Then, they sit and think about how it all fits together and go holy crap, you're right.

It's like touching one thing and all the lines to all the other things it's touching light up, too. That's how I think.
 

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Hello, INTPs. Hear me out, will you?

I have no idea why this is. It's not like I know 10,000 INTPs super well or anything like that. But there seems to be something about the way INTPs think that just fascinates me. Time and again. Unfailingly.

My closest friend is an INTP. I've known him my whole life (although we became friends later). He is definitely one of the most truly Introverted people I know (that's not to say he's antisocial - just textbook Introvert). I think that might be a Ti-thing. I've known many Introverts, and not all of them were so obviously withdrawn into their minds as I have seen him. Even when he's interacting with people, I can watch him thinking and I know he's internalizing everything.

It was so interesting. Maybe it was the Ne. But I just thought, "I want to understand how he thinks."

What is it about INTPs and that abstract thinking? I don't even know how it happened, but we began talking to each other about philosophy. Not just existentialism or anything. Really abstract things about existence itself. Perspectives. Epistemology. There was so much of just defining things. I brought up a lot of stuff about personality and psychology too. But seriously, we could be talking about anything and it would almost always come back to something incredibly abstract. Which I loved.

He thinks in a much more linear fashion than me. That is, he actually forges a chain of reasoning. It's something I've noticed most INTPs do when they're thinking about something. That's not to say every INTP is a logical person at all. But just talking about how I've noted you guys think. Which is an observation that could be totally off the wall. But it's very different in feeling to Te, which I've noted often in my ESTJ sister. It's actually quite the opposite. Haha, one time my friend told me he didn't understand the way my sister thought. It was too "top-down". It was too much like just gathering a bunch of stuff from outside and then deciding. I actually laughed, because in a simple observation and not knowing any personality theory, he had articulated an essential difference between Te and Ti.

I don't think linearly. I don't take the time to form a chain of reasoning in the same way he does. I'm more associative, finding relationships and meaning between multiple ideas, which then remind me of other things. But according to him, sometimes I'd make connections faster than he could realize them. And then later he'd realize they were valid.

I laughed, because over half the time, I don't realize (and sometimes I don't even care to know) whether the crazy connections I make are valid. It's all in the fun of pursuing ideas. But talking to him about anything was simply fun and energizing. Interesting.

I wonder if this is characteristic of an INTP/ENFP relationship. Thoughts? Ideas? comments?
@arkigos, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Sounds pretty right on with ENFP/INTP interaction... ideas move fast, very fast, but the ENFP is pulling in everything as fast as they can as fast as it occurs to them - without internalizing it, taking a more observational role (thus, as an observer, no onus is taken for vetting the ideas)... while the INTP, being a Ti, must take the time to 'form a chain of reasoning', as you say.

As for me, I tend to get too caught up in the moment and it is only afterward when I am alone that I stop and try to, uhm, trim it all back and cut the fat - to forge that chain and try to get back to where we were. However, I don't find our conversations particularly abstract. Typically, we meet on ideas within the real world. But, if you asked me what sorts of things we tended to focus on, I'd say.............. Anthropology/Sociology and Psychology, mainly? Also, general Humanities and a little Philosophy. I mean, discussing People and how they are in very high level meta terms... how the world could be, how the world is, again in very high level terms. Always focusing on throwing out new perspectives that seem to us to offer promise of changing how things are looked at or just generally being insightful. Always very meta, always broadly applied and scoped, and always eternally in the 'idea phase'. Also, lots of defining things... no expense spared in focusing on the concepts. The concepts are the all-important things to both of us. The Principles, the IDEA.

You probably already know that I am married to an ENFP. 10 years of organizing the thoughts of a Dreamer that would give John Lennon a run for his money.

I would expect that most INTPs would connect with most ENFPs. I've never seen a case where they didn't get along well and get a lot out of each other. However, I don't think that my particular affinity is necessarily typical. I think that the INTP needs to be naturally inclined to soulful or humanistic things to bridge that last gap to really bond with an (E)NFP. If you get what I mean. There are some INTPs who ultimately aren't perceiving of such things... and while they might have a natural good rapport, there is only so much the two can get out of each other without it.
 
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Hello, INTPs. Hear me out, will you?

I have no idea why this is. It's not like I know 10,000 INTPs super well or anything like that. But there seems to be something about the way INTPs think that just fascinates me. Time and again. Unfailingly.

My closest friend is an INTP. I've known him my whole life (although we became friends later). He is definitely one of the most truly Introverted people I know (that's not to say he's antisocial - just textbook Introvert). I think that might be a Ti-thing. I've known many Introverts, and not all of them were so obviously withdrawn into their minds as I have seen him. Even when he's interacting with people, I can watch him thinking and I know he's internalizing everything.

It was so interesting. Maybe it was the Ne. But I just thought, "I want to understand how he thinks."

What is it about INTPs and that abstract thinking? I don't even know how it happened, but we began talking to each other about philosophy. Not just existentialism or anything. Really abstract things about existence itself. Perspectives. Epistemology. There was so much of just defining things. I brought up a lot of stuff about personality and psychology too. But seriously, we could be talking about anything and it would almost always come back to something incredibly abstract. Which I loved.

He thinks in a much more linear fashion than me. That is, he actually forges a chain of reasoning. It's something I've noticed most INTPs do when they're thinking about something. That's not to say every INTP is a logical person at all. But just talking about how I've noted you guys think. Which is an observation that could be totally off the wall. But it's very different in feeling to Te, which I've noted often in my ESTJ sister. It's actually quite the opposite. Haha, one time my friend told me he didn't understand the way my sister thought. It was too "top-down". It was too much like just gathering a bunch of stuff from outside and then deciding. I actually laughed, because in a simple observation and not knowing any personality theory, he had articulated an essential difference between Te and Ti.

I don't think linearly. I don't take the time to form a chain of reasoning in the same way he does. I'm more associative, finding relationships and meaning between multiple ideas, which then remind me of other things. But according to him, sometimes I'd make connections faster than he could realize them. And then later he'd realize they were valid.

I laughed, because over half the time, I don't realize (and sometimes I don't even care to know) whether the crazy connections I make are valid. It's all in the fun of pursuing ideas. But talking to him about anything was simply fun and energizing. Interesting.

I wonder if this is characteristic of an INTP/ENFP relationship. Thoughts? Ideas? comments?
@arkigos, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
My best friend was an ENFP and we also had an amazing relationship. I heard of a few other INTP's with a great ENFP friend and the thread I posted on the ENFP fourms sounds like they also have stupidly awesome relationships with INTP's. I guess it's just meant to be.
The other posts reference to the matix of INTP thinking is very accurate, but I can see how you'd think it's linear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Haha, I suppose in the light of what you all are saying, I should rephrase what I meant by your thinking being more "linear". It still is more linear than the way I think. Or perhaps a better word to use would be "systematic". It's... ordered. In a way mine is most definitely not.

@joshman108, although a fatal mistake people have made about me is thinking that what things I externally express are everything, or that I wear everything on my sleeve. But thanks. :)

@arkigos, thanks for your thoughts. ^_^ I asked because for whatever reason (probably because you have a good understanding of the functions and your wife is an ENFP), you understand ENFPs better than anybody on this forum. Well, that is probably an exaggeration, but you definitely understand ENFPs better than even most ENFPs. You've said some incredibly insightful things about it that have given me words for things I only ever felt. I hope that I can come to understand INTPs like you understand ENFPs. It's a type that has so many odd stereotypes that I feel are nothing like how INTPs truly are, at least at the core.

I'm glad you also somehow relate to the "chain of reasoning" thing. I didn't know how else to put it. But it's a different way of thinking.

It's interesting your conversations don't tend to be abstract, or at least what you consider to be abstract. I love talking about anthropology, sociology, and psychology too. Things and ideas that relate more to "real life". I've talked with my INTP friend about those things as well, and he enjoys discussing those things too. He still does something different when he thinks about those ideas. I'm fascinated by the ideas themselves. He enjoys it for that reason too, but he also particularly seems to enjoy how his thoughts about them fit into some internalized understanding of how things work. The IDEA, as you mentioned, is definitely the most important thing to the both of us in the conversation.

But for whatever reason, and perhaps this is just a me-thing, I love philosophy and weird crazy branches of it like epistemology and phenomenology. Plus theology. Almost as much as I love the more "humanitarian" things (but I think that if my INTP friend didn't have an affinity to those things, I really might feel like there was some odd distance between our relationship). And I suppose that particular affinity for that kind of philosophy is a little peculiar. It's always the concepts that intrigue me.
 

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Maybe it is just me but I am absolutely not a linear thinker. I still form a solid chain of reasoning but there is absolutely nothing linear about it which seems to confuse people often.
I think the communicating or our codifying the information has to come off as linear otherwise it won't be understood. And even then, it doesn't always sound as straight forward as it should. So I understand the sentiment other people come to. But Ti is difficult, because you work really hard in the "primordial images" to come to a conclusion that finally makes an important impact on your own understanding... but you are alone with it. Still worth it though.

Ne is not interested in the codifying, it is interested in the comparison, the perception. While Ti will attempt to make sense of it, Ne will be much more interested in the vision for vision's sake. So I can see what she means by nonlinear. I would use the term reactionary personally. And I would call feelings more nonlinear than thinking. Which is kind of ironic, because you would colloquially think feeling is associated with being reactionary. But not in the sense of mbti and Jung imo. When I see a differential vector field and the kinds of waves it can make, that's what I imagine feeling to be like.

A visualization of feeling (whereas thinking will compare A to be B more by their sole merits alone):

 

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I think the communicating or our codifying the information has to come off as linear otherwise it won't be understood. And even then, it doesn't always sound as straight forward as it should. So I understand the sentiment other people come to. But Ti is difficult, because you work really hard in the "primordial images" to come to a conclusion that finally makes an important impact on your own understanding... but you are alone with it. Still worth it though.

Ne is not interested in the codifying, it is interested in the comparison, the perception. While Ti will attempt to make sense of it, Ne will be much more interested in the vision for vision's sake. So I can see what she means by nonlinear. I would use the term reactionary personally. And I would call feelings more nonlinear than thinking. Which is kind of ironic, because you would colloquially think feeling is associated with being reactionary. But not in the sense of mbti and Jung imo. When I see a differential vector field and the kinds of waves it can make, that's what I imagine feeling to be like.

A visualization of feeling (whereas thinking will compare A to be B more by their sole merits alone):

Better examples of what I mean
Article 2 on Cognitive neuroscience
Article 2 on Cognitive neuroscience
The biological meaning of Linear and Non-linear thinking
 

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Where did you find that website? It was an interesting conglomeration of ideas into some seemingly random format I've never come across before. It felt like I was continually given the big picture in new ways, without a lot of consecutive reasoning taking place at all. Except maybe in the pictures. Or maybe that was just the way I read it, idk.

But anyway, interesting ideas. LT vs NLT, or normal vs. "autists", syllogical vs. logical, dendrite process vs. net cell process, all respectively associated. It's hard for me to want to call nonlinear logic as a "logic by association" sense.... but I guess I understand what it means. To me, nonlinear centers around what is discontinuous, and the more distant the replacing of the discontinuity by the seemingly unrelated, the more nonlinear. Hence the "bend" caused by feeling in the picture. But I suppose discretely this can be represented by a larger collection of seemingly disparate associations.... but I'll have to think about it.
 

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Where did you find that website? It was an interesting conglomeration of ideas into some seemingly random format I've never come across before. It felt like I was continually given the big picture in new ways, without a lot of consecutive reasoning taking place at all. Except maybe in the pictures. Or maybe that was just the way I read it, idk.

But anyway, interesting ideas. LT vs NLT, or normal vs. "autists", syllogical vs. logical, dendrite process vs. net cell process, all respectively associated. It's hard for me to want to call nonlinear logic as a "logic by association" sense.... but I guess I understand what it means. To me, nonlinear centers around what is discontinuous, and the more distant the replacing of the discontinuity by the seemingly unrelated, the more nonlinear. Hence the "bend" caused by feeling in the picture. But I suppose discretely this can be represented by a larger collection of seemingly disparate associations.... but I'll have to think about it.
It is hard for me to find scholarly articles on the subject matter that are not related to LT versus NLT and the success from using NLT in certain careers. If you go to the third link in the comments section people may have provided more links. Those were just the first two that I read.

I think it is just the easiest way to label and differentiate between the two when explaining how people form thoughts. They are two terms that already exist and can best explain what the two different thought processes are at the moment.
 

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It is hard for me to find scholarly articles on the subject matter that are not related to LT versus NLT and the success from using NLT in certain careers. If you go to the third link in the comments section people may have provided more links. Those were just the first two that I read.

I think it is just the easiest way to label and differentiate between the two when explaining how people form thoughts. They are two terms that already exist and can best explain what the two different thought processes are at the moment.
Sometimes, being an aspie has its advantages. :happy:
 

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I wonder if this is characteristic of an INTP/ENFP relationship. Thoughts? Ideas? comments?
It sounds pretty accurate, to me.
He thinks in a much more linear fashion than me. That is, he actually forges a chain of reasoning.
...
I don't think linearly. I don't take the time to form a chain of reasoning in the same way he does. I'm more associative, finding relationships and meaning between multiple ideas, which then remind me of other things. But according to him, sometimes I'd make connections faster than he could realize them. And then later he'd realize they were valid.
...
I laughed, because over half the time, I don't realize (and sometimes I don't even care to know) whether the crazy connections I make are valid. It's all in the fun of pursuing ideas.
That's the difference between Ne/Ji and Ji/Ne.

Kind of wish I had an ENFP friend, now.

But it's very different in feeling to Te, which I've noted often in my ESTJ sister
I like to think that xxTPs have less in common with xxTJs than they do with xxFJ or xxFP types, despite preferring the use of impersonal logic to the "feeling" judgements.
 

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Is there a particular quote you could reference where he said this?
You caught me just before bed; aren't you lucky.

"Indeed, in their later years (after finding out that most others are faking an understanding of the laws of nature), INTPs are likely to think of themselves as the master organizers who must pit themselves against nature and society in an unending effort to create organization out of the raw materials of nature. Where the Mastermind Rationals are would-be masters of order, the Architect Rationals [are] would-be masters of organization."

Pages 204-205 of Please Understand me II.

Reading that, now, makes me take note of a would-be grammatical error. I added the "are" in brackets as it reads badly without it as a verbatim transcription of the text. Masterminds are INTJs and Architects are INTPs. I added "sequence", "linearity", "categories", and "interconnectivity" as my own extrapolation.
 

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I think one of my greatest strengths in discussion is the ability to pinpoint the particular chain of reasoning that best clarifies my point of view. I find that Ne types generally have the same approach as I do, which is to try to find all of the interrelations between concepts, and ENTPs and ENFPs especially will get more excited in conversation as they find more and more relations and are able to connect the dots to construct a picture of the whole. I think what sets INTPs (and perhaps INFPs, in the realm of interpersonal and ethical distinctions) apart is the ability to look at this complex web of interactions and seek out the most salient connection and use that to make their point.

This, I think, is why conversations with dominant Ne types is so entertaining for INTPs (and I assume, vice versa). Though I am somewhat capable of considering a multitude of ideas and relations between them myself, it is helpful to discuss this matrix of thought with someone who is actively interested in building it to grander proportions. I am generally wary of getting ahead of myself with that sort of thing, so I appreciate having someone who isn't terribly tied down to specificity and brevity, and I think the other person appreciates having someone who understands what they're saying and is concerned with boiling the argument down to a few key points which still don't miss anything. There's a sort of natural counterweight there, where there's a mutual desire to take a multi-faceted approach and find the most nuanced answer, as well as a need to communicate the idea in a simple way with no loss of detail.

Have I appropriately condensed the dynamic of the ENFP-INTP interaction? :wink:
 
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