Personality Cafe banner

1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,044 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I found this description of 4s online, and since there seemed to be some new things, I thought I might as well share it here and see how other 4s relate to these three subtypes. Do you think these descriptions are accurate? What's your stacking, and do these descriptions line up well with your understanding of yourself?

Type #4 Self-Preservation Subtype
Can resemble Counterphobic 6s in their behavior, as well as 1s, at times
Tend to be the most introverted of the three type 4 subtypes
Positive/Enhancing:
• Can focus intently on work or a cause they believe in wholeheartedly
• Careful with money and possessions, don’t risk them foolishly chasing a pipedream
• Excellent at pointing out angles, perspectives or viewpoints that others had not considered
• Can be tenacious, determined and resolute to achieve their lofty goals (like 1s)
• Create aesthetically pleasing surroundings in their home that have emotional resonance
for them
• Meaningful objects, such as antiques or art, can appease romantic desires and longings
Negative/Depleting:
• Try to avoid the meaninglessness of a mundane existence by living on the edge and taking
risks
• Can discount basic self-preservation needs and tune mundane reality out in order to follow
a dream
• Can be dauntless and throw caution to the wind to materialize their dream
• Feel most alive when tempting fate (like Counterphobic 6s); can lead to crisis situations
• Can unconsciously recreate childhood losses in adulthood through reckless behavior
• Can feel lost between hope and despair and take risks to get attention or increase
emotional excitement
• Stubborn refusal to give up their self-image of being someone special
• Can get defensive or angry when people mock their ideals and lifestyle or try to change
them
• Get rebellious when people try to tell them they should give up dreaming and be more
practical
• Get rebellious when people presume to know what they (the self-preservation 4) are
thinking and feeling
• Minor discomforts can seem unbearable – room temp. too hot or cold, lighting to bright or
dim, etc.
• Run by their emotional whims; indulge in bad habits (excessive eating, drinking, staying
up too late, love affairs, etc.) to make up for what is perceived to be missing and to
assuage their emotional lows
• Can be too self-contained, self-destructive, self-defeating, irresponsible and completely
autonomous

Type #4 Sexual Subtype
Can resemble 8s at times when they are feigning self-confidence, being intense, diminishing
others to make themselves seem important and over-stepping their boundaries
Tend to be the most extroverted, or at least assertive, of the three type 4 subtypes (also most
envious)
Positive/Enhancing:
• When healthy, are capable of truly admiring and deeply loving their partner
• Extremely accepting of other people’s individuality and right to express themselves
• Can engage with people deeply, authentically and passionately
• Can develop excellent communication and interpersonal relationship skills
• Able to be extremely open-hearted, compassionate and loving toward all sentient beings
Negative/Depleting:
• Long for a soul mate to come along and sweep them off their feet; to save them from an
ordinary life
• Tend to be especially attracted to people who are distant or unavailable
• Can have unrealistically high expectations of their partner to fit their ideal fantasy of a
mate
• Can have intense romantic and sexual longings; easily get infatuated with a romantic
interest
• Can be tender, vulnerable and sweet but also competitive, demanding, aggressive and
pushy
• Unconsciously yearning for the ideal partner perpetuates familiar feelings of lost love in
childhood
• Their love life can be tempestuous, dramatic, turbulent, stormy, etc. – they can
reject/disdain their partner by focusing on the flaws but then miss the great qualities and
want him/her back
• Strong fears of rejection and abandonment; sexual 4s have serious doubts about their
desirability
• Can be seductive, sexual, jealous and possessive (like 2s); relationship problems cause
depression
• Can be envious of people who seem more fulfilled and happy in their love life
• Can be competitive with any rivals that might threaten their romantic relationship
• Can envy or resent the very qualities in their mate they originally admired or wanted in
themselves
• At worst, get so emotionally distraught over love gone wrong that they kill themselves
and/or their lover

Type #4 Social Subtype
Tend to feel the most misunderstood and totally unlike anyone else of the three type 4 subtypes
Positive/Enhancing:
• Often are high achievers who participate in social causes; have unique talents and gifts to
share
• With their great intuition, can have excellent social skills, social sensitivities and great
manners
• Have an interest in the group’s welfare because they feel the group’s welfare is connected
to their own
• Give their time, energy and even money to improve conditions for people and/or the world
• They always have other people’s welfare in mind as well as their own
• They can be aware of group expectations but have enough self-esteem to do what’s best
for them
Negative/Depleting:
• Inner tension between wanting to fit in, be accepted and belong yet still be special, unique
and stand out
• Desire recognition but fear being embarrassed, humiliated, ridiculed or rejected by probing
eyes
• Can bolster up their image to compensate for social insecurities: dressing up to the nines,
having a unique social style/presentation, being glamorous but a little aloof, having elite
membership, etc.
• Often compare themselves with more “normal” people and feel either more deficient or
more elite
• Fear social encounters that might bring their deficiency or “fatal flaw” to light and
humiliate them
• Due to social shame, they can believe they don’t know how to function like normal people
• Can feel incapable of meeting the same standards that others in the group are capable of
meeting and fear that their defectiveness will eventually be found out and they will be
rejected by the group
• Easily feel ashamed/frustrated for not being able to live up to their own vision of their
ideal self
• Can be hypersensitive to criticism and devastated by being left out by a group of friends
• Often feel socially inept or inadequate – handle by being outwardly charming or just
blending in
• They constantly analyze everything they do or say for fear of looking foolish or making a
mistake
• Can be self-deprecating as a way to fit in and deflect their inner feelings of envy and
defectiveness
• They can feel as though other people have what is missing in their lives
• At worst, can be highly self-critical, antisocial and depressed, living with their shame in
isolation
• At worst, fear others loathe and condemn them because they (others) can read their weird
thoughts

Type Four with a Five Wing (4w5)
Positive:
• Enigmatic, Idiosyncratic, Quiet
• Perceptive, Unconventional
• Intellectual and Emotional
• Deep Feelings, Complex creativity
• Very exploratory, Introspective
• Analytical, Objective, Reserved
• Defiant of Convention, Original
Negative:
• Feel Alienated, Depressed, Unusual
• Can be eccentric, rebellious outsiders
Type Four with a Five Wing: Fours with a Five wing (4w5s) tend to take on more of the
attributes of Fives than of Threes (the other wing), although both wings (5 and 3) can influence
their personality. 4w5s tend to be much less concerned with acceptance, personal appearance
and status than 4w3s. Whereas 4w3s create with an audience in mind, 4w5s usually don’t. 4w5s
just thoroughly enjoy the process of creativity, exploration and discovery. 4w5s tend to be
enigmatic, idiosyncratic lone wolfs or at the very least need plenty of alone time to explore their
personal interests, even if in a relationship. They can have a penetrating intellect because of the
5 wing but are fundamentally an emotional type with deep feelings because of being 4s. They are
usually well-read owing to their love of books and knowledge. Healthy 4w5s are some of the
most creative, original and spiritually aware people in the Enneagram because they are gifted
with a penchant for introspection and profound insight into human nature by being 4s but also
perceptiveness, objectivity and inquisitiveness by having the 5 wing. 4w5s are attracted to
symbolism and the mysteries of life. When healthy, they are able to perceive subtleties and
understand multiple levels of meaning in life that are missed by most other types. Many great
writers from the past have been 4w5s. They are unconventional and can be rather defiant if
someone tries to tell them to fit in more (to society) or be more practical, realistic or reasonable.
Some 4w5s can seem outwardly reserved, cool and standoffish yet inwardly they are romantic,
passionate and ardent. 4w5s are hard to read but once you get to know them they are usually
quite personable, warm and caring, contrary to appearances. Healthy 4w5s enjoy communicating
their inner awarenesses to give humanity a different, often more spiritual, perspective on life.
Negatively, 4w5s can be the most alienated, depressed, lonely, shy, insecure, and/or
emotionally tormented of all the Enneagram types. They can feel like isolated outsiders; in, but
not of, this world. 4w5s can have brilliant flashes of intuitive insight but don’t tend to take action
as easily as 4w3s so these insights are often lost to the ethers. They prefer to just fantasize and
dwell in their imagination. They can be highly impractical since they don’t really care to focus on
real world issues. This can cause them a whole host of real world problems though! Being
introverted, socially withdrawn, and heavily involved in their own pet projects, they can be
oblivious to what is going on in the rest of the world. They can get themselves badly in debt by
impulsively spending money on a wild idea/dream they have. Since they tend to have few friends
they have more time on their hands to do what most unhealthy 4s do, think about what’s missing
in their life. Since 4w5s are still romantically inclined they can long for a loving relationship but
struggle intensely with the idea of having to give up some of their personal freedom and also deal
with relationship challenges. It often seems easier for them to maintain their down-beat,
minimalistic lifestyle and privacy than to risk the potential pain and heartache of being in a
serious relationship.

Type Four with a Three Wing (4w3)
Positive:
• Goal-oriented, Ambitious
• More sociable than 4w5s
• Desire to communicate themselves and their creativity to others
• Energetic, Active, Outgoing
• Productive, Distinctive, Stylish
• Create w/ an audience in mind
Negative:
• Image-conscious, Self-conscious, Dramatic
• Elitist, Want social acceptance
• Can seem outwardly confident but feel inwardly inadequate
Type Four with a Three Wing: Fours with a Three wing (4w3s) tend to take on more of the
attributes of Threes than of Fives (the other wing), although both wings (3 and 5) can influence
their personality. 4w3s tend to be more sociable and aware of interpersonal politics than 4w5s,
who tend toward being loners. Because of the 3 wing, 4w3s are hard-working, goal-oriented,
ambitious and drive themselves hard to achieve their goals, like 3s. In fact, many healthy 4w3s
are just as hard-working as 3s and quite successful. Consider Michael Jackson, Neil Diamond,
Judy Garland, Jeremy Irons and Jackie Onassis, for example. However, 4w3s are still 4s so they
have deep, intense feelings and are quite romantic and passionate. When healthy, 4w3s are
introspective, self-aware, and interested in self-development and spiritual growth. They are able
to take constructive action on their lofty ideals and do the necessary work to bring their dreams
into reality. Healthy 4w3s possess creativity and the drive to make their distinctive mark on the
world. They want to express the depths of their souls to others and be recognized for their
unique contributions.
Negatively, 4w3s can be painfully self-conscious and insecure. Feeling defective and
flawed inside, they work hard to prove their self-worth. They want recognition for their unique
work but they can also struggle with issues of low self-esteem and inferiority. No matter their
success, they always feel their work could have been done better. They can have a dual
personality. They crave social acceptance so they can be funny, sociable and bubbly out in public
– almost seeming like Sevens – but then go home to loneliness or a dissatisfying love
relationship. They put a lot of effort into their personal appearance and self-presentation,
wanting to be noticed. They can still be hard-working and more practical than 4w5s but they can
also be extravagant with money (especially if they are a Vata dosha type) to compensate for
subconscious feelings of low self-worth. They often want to be seen as cultured, sophisticated,
high class, elegant, refined or elite. They can be melodramatic, grandiose, narcissistic, disdainful
and/or competitive. Craving love and romance and being highly sensual, they can sometimes
find themselves involved in messy love triangles. Negative 4w3s can sometimes experience
strong feelings of jealously, envy, unrequited love, vengefulness, and/or hatred.



Source.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,044 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I will start it off:

Bolded I relate to; strikeouts definitely not; my own comments in red; blue- this is the opposite of me, and I wish I could incorporate some of these aspects into myself

Type #4 Self-Preservation Subtype
Can resemble Counterphobic 6s in their behavior, as well as 1s, at times
Tend to be the most introverted of the three type 4 subtypes

Positive/Enhancing:
Can focus intently on work or a cause they believe in wholeheartedly
If ever there is a "cause" I am concerned with, it's going to be singular and it will be very personal and passionate for me. Usually, I don't care about causes, however.

• Careful with money and possessions, don’t risk them foolishly chasing a pipedream
• Excellent at pointing out angles, perspectives or viewpoints that others had not considered
sometimes; comes from my 5 wing.
• Can be tenacious, determined and resolute to achieve their lofty goals (like 1s)
I don't keep many "goals" :unsure: That's not to say I don't want to shape my future in certain ways, but I go more with the idea that I am maturing, developing, and so will my future organically by itself. That I will "know" what to pursue when it eventually comes down to it. I keep things very open ended, although I am singularly focused on Psychology (or related areas).

• Create aesthetically pleasing surroundings in their home that have emotional resonance
for them
I have arranged my earrings, necklaces etc in this pretty way on my side table, and my roommate remarked how it "looks princess-like," because of my fascination with unique, iridiscent, pretty jewelry. I am quite low key when it comes to style, however I do manage to grab attention a lot of times. I also like decorating little boxes with washi tape and putting things in them. I love collecting marbles just because I like what they look like though, not because I have a use for them. I have a big box on table that looks exactly like an old hardbound book, except it's a box when you open it. I love things like that haha.

• Meaningful objects, such as antiques or art, can appease romantic desires and longings
Unfortunately that's not true for me. It's just an object; a way to express myself, certainly, but appease me in any way? No. It doesn't have that kind of effect on me.

Negative/Depleting:
• Try to avoid the meaninglessness of a mundane existence by living on the edge and taking
risks
Nah

Can discount basic self-preservation needs and tune mundane reality out in order to follow
a dream

Yup

• Can be dauntless and throw caution to the wind to materialize their dream
Nope

• Feel most alive when tempting fate (like Counterphobic 6s); can lead to crisis situations
Can unconsciously recreate childhood losses in adulthood through reckless behavior
• Can feel lost between hope and despair and take risks to get attention or increase
emotional excitement
• Stubborn refusal to give up their self-image of being someone special
Can get defensive or angry when people mock their ideals and lifestyle or try to change
them

• Get rebellious when people try to tell them they should give up dreaming and be more
practical
I just get annoyed, but not rebellious.

• Get rebellious when people presume to know what they (the self-preservation 4) are
thinking and feeling
• Minor discomforts can seem unbearable – room temp. too hot or cold, lighting to bright or
dim, etc.
Run by their emotional whims; indulge in bad habits (excessive eating, drinking, staying
up too late, love affairs, etc.) to make up for what is perceived to be missing and to
assuage their emotional lows
I may do this, but more so out of lack of SP concern, as opposed masochistic desire to sacrifice security. I am not impulsive in terms of what it's saying on here though, I don't do excessive "drinking and eating and love affairs," but I can neglect to take care of my health in some ways. I have been smoking cigarettes non-stop for several weeks now, and I already have a health condition (not smoking related) and it only makes it worse. I don't see a future, therefore I don't see the point of taking care of myself in the present. I can also not eat at all, and when I get hungry, eat not exactly healthy.

• Can be too self-contained, self-destructive, self-defeating, irresponsible and completely
autonomous


Type #4 Sexual Subtype
Can resemble 8s at times when they are feigning self-confidence, being intense, diminishing
others to make themselves seem important and over-stepping their boundaries

Tend to be the most extroverted, or at least assertive, of the three type 4 subtypes (also most
envious)
Positive/Enhancing:
When healthy, are capable of truly admiring and deeply loving their partner
• Extremely accepting of other people’s individuality and right to express themselves
• Can engage with people deeply, authentically and passionately
• Can develop excellent communication and interpersonal relationship skills
• Able to be extremely open-hearted, compassionate and loving toward all sentient beings

These are all qualities I have always imagined in my ideal self.

Negative/Depleting:
Long for a soul mate to come along and sweep them off their feet; to save them from an
ordinary life
I have in the past wanted to be saved, but only because romantic validation = to my entire self-worth and reason for existing. It's not an exaggeration that I feel this way. If I don't have this, what's there to life? Nothing.

• Tend to be especially attracted to people who are distant or unavailable
I have in the past, for 8 years straight, been attracted to those who didn't like me back. I mean, no wonder I was this emotionally scarred, unstable, and wanted to die. • Can have unrealistically high expectations of their partner to fit their ideal fantasy of a
mate
Don't all SX firsts?

Can have intense romantic and sexual longings; easily get infatuated with a romantic
interest
Oh, yeah. I am trying better now to not let on my relative naivete or lack of experience in this area, because I am scared that it will drive him away (how infatuated I can get with someone very easily)

Can be tender, vulnerable and sweet but also competitive, demanding, aggressive and
pushy
Mostly the former. I can be the latter in softer, more passive ways, but it's still obviously more aggressive than I usually am. I get that way when feeling rejected, which can happen over the smallest things really. It's not raw, unbridled 8-like aggression. Never like that. Very colored by my 9 and 6 in the tritype. In fact I would describe myself as more 9-like than 8-like.

Unconsciously yearning for the ideal partner perpetuates familiar feelings of lost love in
childhood
It's probably true.

• Their love life can be tempestuous, dramatic, turbulent, stormy, etc. WIsh it wasn'tthey can
reject/disdain their partner by focusing on the flaws but then miss the great qualities and
want him/her back

• Strong fears of rejection and abandonment; sexual 4s have serious doubts about their
desirability
Well no shit, given my experiences in life.

• Can be seductive, sexual, jealous and possessive (like 2s); relationship problems cause
depression
Yeah it's embarrassing but I can see this being true for me. And yeah, relationship problems definitely cause issues with me, which includes a lot more than depression.

• Can be envious of people who seem more fulfilled and happy in their love life
"What's so wrong with me, that I can't have this, but she can?"

• Can be competitive with any rivals that might threaten their romantic relationship
YES. I get so jealous of other girls pursuing the same guy. I easily expect them to be "better" than me and unfortunately they have always turned out to be. Even though, I might look at them and go, what's so special about them? They are perfectly average. But apparently better human beings or friends or lovers than me, it seems. There's always something painfully wrong with me. And the jealousy is so bad, I have fantasized about "exposing" their ugliness because I mean everyone has it, or killing them because I utterly hate their guts. I would never act on any of these thoughts though.

• Can envy or resent the very qualities in their mate they originally admired or wanted in
themselves
Maybe. I don't usually compare myself this intensely to him. Although I can certainly see myself being somewhat unsettled if he is better than me in ways that I admire, meaning he can find someone more in his league in that sense, someone who is better than me. But it's not even close to the flesh-burning, eating me from the inside out jealousy/envy I typically feel in romantic situations. Basically, this is not something I have been that concerned with.

At worst, get so emotionally distraught over love gone wrong that they kill themselves well haven't I tried this a million times? I am the epitome of neurotic and unhealthy SX, it seems.
and/or their lover jeez


Type #4 Social Subtype
Tend to feel the most misunderstood and totally unlike anyone else of the three type 4 subtypes
Positive/Enhancing:
• Often are high achievers who participate in social causes; have unique talents and gifts to
share
• With their great intuition, can have excellent social skills, social sensitivities and great
manners
• Have an interest in the group’s welfare because they feel the group’s welfare is connected
to their own

• Give their time, energy and even money to improve conditions for people and/or the world
• They always have other people’s welfare in mind as well as their own
• They can be aware of group expectations but have enough self-esteem to do what’s best
for them

Now a lot of this is true for me, if I am actually invested in a "cause," which happens extremely rarely. But when I am, yeah almost all of this is true for me. Usually I am nothing like this, however.

Negative/Depleting:
• Inner tension between wanting to fit in, be accepted and belong yet still be special, unique
and stand out
• Desire recognition but fear being embarrassed, humiliated, ridiculed or rejected by probing eyes
• Can bolster up their image to compensate for social insecurities: dressing up to the nines, having a unique social style/presentation, being glamorous but a little aloof, having elite
membership, etc.
• Often compare themselves with more “normal” people and feel either more deficient or
more elite
• Fear social encounters that might bring their deficiency or “fatal flaw” to light and
humiliate them
I just have general anxiety around social situations, but never do I think about my "fatal flaws" in this context. Just this general sense of insecurity. So I guess it's not as neurotic as feeling fatally flawed in some way, socially.

• Due to social shame, they can believe they don’t know how to function like normal people
• Can feel incapable of meeting the same standards that others in the group are capable of
meeting and fear that their defectiveness will eventually be found out and they will be
rejected by the group
It doesn't bother me as much if I am rejected by the group.

• Easily feel ashamed/frustrated for not being able to live up to their own vision of their
ideal self

Can be hypersensitive to criticism and devastated by being left out by a group of friends
the unbolded: it can hurt but it doesn't bother me for long.

Often feel socially inept or inadequate – handle by being outwardly charming or just
blending in
• They constantly analyze everything they do or say for fear of looking foolish or making a
mistake

• Can be self-deprecating as a way to fit in and deflect their inner feelings of envy and
defectiveness
• They can feel as though other people have what is missing in their lives
• At worst, can be highly self-critical, antisocial and depressed, living with their shame in
isolation
• At worst, fear others loathe and condemn them because they (others) can read their weird
thoughts
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Hello! This thread seems interesting!
Okay, I'll continue:
Purple- I identify with the statement
Red- I don't actually

Type #4 Sexual Subtype
Can resemble 8s at times when they are feigning self-confidence, being intense, diminishing
others to make themselves seem important and over-stepping their boundaries
huge nope
Tend to be the most extroverted, or at least assertive, of the three type 4 subtypes I am really ambiverted, though. I am also kinda shy. (also most
envious)
Positive/Enhancing:
• When healthy, are capable of truly admiring and deeply loving their partner
• Extremely accepting of other people’s individuality and right to express themselves
• Can engage with people deeply, authentically and passionately
• Can develop excellent communication and interpersonal relationship skills
• Able to be extremely open-hearted, compassionate and loving toward all sentient beings
Negative/Depleting:
• Long for a soul mate to come along and sweep them off their feet; to save them from an
ordinary life
• Tend to be especially attracted to people who are distant or unavailable
• Can have unrealistically high expectations of their partner to fit their ideal fantasy of a
mate
• Can have intense romantic and sexual longings; easily get infatuated with a romantic
interest
• Can be tender, vulnerable and sweet but also competitive, demanding, aggressive and
pushy
• Unconsciously yearning for the ideal partner perpetuates familiar feelings of lost love in
childhood
• Their love life can be tempestuous, dramatic, turbulent, stormy, etc. – they can
reject/disdain their partner by focusing on the flaws but then miss the great qualities and
want him/her back
• Strong fears of rejection and abandonment; sexual 4s have serious doubts about their
desirability
• Can be seductive, sexual, jealous and possessive (like 2s); relationship problems cause
depression
• Can be envious of people who seem more fulfilled and happy in their love life
• Can be competitive with any rivals that might threaten their romantic relationship
• Can envy or resent the very qualities in their mate they originally admired or wanted in
themselves
• At worst, get so emotionally distraught over love gone wrong that they kill themselves
and/or their lover no way.

Type Four with a Three Wing (4w3)
Positive:
• Goal-oriented, Ambitious I am ambitious, but not THAT much
• More sociable than 4w5s
• Desire to communicate themselves and their creativity to others
• Energetic, Active, Outgoing
• Productive, Distinctive, Stylish
• Create w/ an audience in mind
Negative:
• Image-conscious, Self-conscious, Dramatic
• Elitist, Want social acceptance
• Can seem outwardly confident but feel inwardly inadequate
Type Four with a Three Wing: Fours with a Three wing (4w3s) tend to take on more of the
attributes of Threes than of Fives (the other wing), although both wings (3 and 5) can influence
their personality. 4w3s tend to be more sociable and aware of interpersonal politics than 4w5s,
who tend toward being loners. Because of the 3 wing, 4w3s are hard-working, goal-oriented,
ambitious and drive themselves hard to achieve their goals, like 3s. I am ambitious, but not actually... goal oriented? I want to be kind of admired, but I am just too lazy.
In fact, many healthy 4w3s
are just as hard-working as 3s and quite successful. Consider Michael Jackson, Neil Diamond,
Judy Garland, Jeremy Irons and Jackie Onassis, for example. However, 4w3s are still 4s so they
have deep, intense feelings and are quite romantic and passionate. When healthy, 4w3s are
introspective, self-aware, and interested in self-development and spiritual growth. They are able
to take constructive action on their lofty ideals and do the necessary work to bring their dreams
into reality. Healthy 4w3s possess creativity and the drive to make their distinctive mark on the
world. They want to express the depths of their souls to others and be recognized for their
unique contributions. Very true for me.
Negatively, 4w3s can be painfully self-conscious and insecure. Feeling defective and
flawed inside, they work hard to prove their self-worth. They want recognition for their unique
work but they can also struggle with issues of low self-esteem and inferiority. No matter their
success, they always feel their work could have been done better. They can have a dual
personality. They crave social acceptance so they can be funny, sociable and bubbly out in public
– almost seeming like Sevens – but then go home to loneliness or a dissatisfying love
relationship. They put a lot of effort into their personal appearance and self-presentation,
wanting to be noticed. I kind of want to be noticed, but at the same time, I am very, very shy.
They can still be hard-working and more practical than 4w5s but they can
also be extravagant with money (especially if they are a Vata dosha type) to compensate for
subconscious feelings of low self-worth. I am sorry to say that, but that is very, very inacurrate.
They often want to be seen as cultured, sophisticated,
high class, elegant, refined or elite. No. That's superficial.
They can be melodramatic, grandiose, narcissistic, disdainful
and/or competitive. True.
Craving love and romance and being highly sensual, they can sometimes
find themselves involved in messy love triangles. Negative 4w3s can sometimes experience
strong feelings of jealously, envy, unrequited love, vengefulness, and/or hatred. True
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,044 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Type Four with a Five Wing (4w5)
Positive:
• Enigmatic, Idiosyncratic, Quiet
Perceptive, Unconventional
• Intellectual and Emotional
• Deep Feelings, Complex creativity
• Very exploratory, Introspective

Analytical, Objective, Reserved
• Defiant of Convention, Original
Negative:
Feel Alienated, Depressed, Unusual
Can be eccentric, rebellious outsiders
Type Four with a Five Wing: Fours with a Five wing (4w5s) tend to take on more of the
attributes of Fives than of Threes (the other wing), although both wings (5 and 3) can influence
their personality. 4w5s tend to be much less concerned with acceptance, personal appearance
and status than 4w3s. Whereas 4w3s create with an audience in mind, 4w5s usually don’t. 4w5s
just thoroughly enjoy the process of creativity, exploration and discovery. 4w5s tend to be
enigmatic, idiosyncratic lone wolfs or at the very least need plenty of alone time to explore their
personal interests, even if in a relationship. They can have a penetrating intellect because of the
5 wing but are fundamentally an emotional type with deep feelings because of being 4s. They are
usually well-read owing to their love of books and knowledge. Healthy 4w5s are some of the
most creative, original and spiritually aware people in the Enneagram because they are gifted
with a penchant for introspection and profound insight into human nature by being 4s but also
perceptiveness, objectivity and inquisitiveness by having the 5 wing. 4w5s are attracted to
symbolism and the mysteries of life. When healthy, they are able to perceive subtleties and
understand multiple levels of meaning in life that are missed by most other types.
Many great
writers from the past have been 4w5s. They are unconventional and can be rather defiant if
someone tries to tell them to fit in more (to society) or be more practical, realistic or reasonable.

Some 4w5s can seem outwardly reserved, cool and standoffish yet inwardly they are romantic,
passionate and ardent. 4w5s are hard to read but once you get to know them they are usually
quite personable, warm and caring, contrary to appearances. Healthy 4w5s enjoy communicating
their inner awarenesses to give humanity a different, often more spiritual, perspective on life.
Negatively, 4w5s can be the most alienated, depressed, lonely, shy, insecure, and/or
emotionally tormented of all the Enneagram types.
They can feel like isolated outsiders; in, but
not of, this world. 4w5s can have brilliant flashes of intuitive insight but don’t tend to take action
as easily as 4w3s so these insights are often lost to the ethers. They prefer to just fantasize and
dwell in their imagination. They can be highly impractical since they don’t really care to focus on
real world issues. This can cause them a whole host of real world problems though! Being
introverted, socially withdrawn, and heavily involved in their own pet projects, they can be
oblivious to what is going on in the rest of the world.
They can get themselves badly in debt by
impulsively spending money on a wild idea/dream they have. Since they tend to have few friends
they have more time on their hands to do what most unhealthy 4s do, think about what’s missing
in their life. Since 4w5s are still romantically inclined they can long for a loving relationship
but
struggle intensely with the idea of having to give up some of their personal freedom and also deal
with relationship challenges. It often seems easier for them to maintain their down-beat,
minimalistic lifestyle and privacy than to risk the potential pain and heartache of being in a
serious relationship.


I don't know what to say, it basically describes me pretty well. I am very quiet and shy, and most people will not see what's hidden unless they get to know me and start talking to me. On here I have been more expressive, but it's online so it's easier. I also am aware of being "eccentric" in the sense of being dorky, or a little socially naive at times. I don't put on a polished facade, my image is rather...awkward, eloquent, heartfelt, longing, emotionally raw/scary (once I open up to you), etc. I also suck at everything type 3, since I don't relate to that type at all in myself. I am probably "standoffish" but really I am just an introvert. I can feel nervous socially so I keep to myself, unless I want to approach someone and talk to them. And it's true that I spend way too much time introspecting. My "vision" or symbolism that I see in the word is also...unique or bizarre if you will. Eccentric in the type 5 way. My speech is heavily clinical, and it sounds very much like 5s compartmentalizing feelings by assigning concepts to them. Although underneath, of course, I am very much an emotional creature. I am heavily analytical with everything, including my feelings. I analyze them until my head hurts...sometimes. And then I keep going. I can't seem to stop.
 
Joined
·
2,781 Posts
I relate to the stuff in bold.

Type #4 Self-Preservation Subtype

Can resemble Counterphobic 6s in their behavior, as well as 1s, at times
Tend to be the most introverted of the three type 4 subtypes
Positive/Enhancing:
• Can focus intently on work or a cause they believe in wholeheartedly
• Careful with money and possessions, don’t risk them foolishly chasing a pipedream
• Excellent at pointing out angles, perspectives or viewpoints that others had not considered
• Can be tenacious, determined and resolute to achieve their lofty goals (like 1s)

• Create aesthetically pleasing surroundings in their home that have emotional resonance
for them

• Meaningful objects, such as antiques or art, can appease romantic desires and longings
Negative/Depleting:
• Try to avoid the meaninglessness of a mundane existence by living on the edge and taking
risks
• Can discount basic self-preservation needs and tune mundane reality out in order to follow
a dream
• Can be dauntless and throw caution to the wind to materialize their dream

• Feel most alive when tempting fate (like Counterphobic 6s); can lead to crisis situations
• Can unconsciously recreate childhood losses in adulthood through reckless behavior

• Can feel lost between hope and despair and take risks to get attention or increase
emotional excitement

• Stubborn refusal to give up their self-image of being someone special
• Can get defensive or angry when people mock their ideals and lifestyle or try to change
them

• Get rebellious when people try to tell them they should give up dreaming and be more
practical

• Get rebellious when people presume to know what they (the self-preservation 4) are
thinking and feeling

• Minor discomforts can seem unbearable – room temp. too hot or cold, lighting to bright or
dim, etc.

• Run by their emotional whims; indulge in bad habits (excessive eating, drinking, staying
up too late, love affairs, etc.) to make up for what is perceived to be missing and to
assuage their emotional lows

• Can be too self-contained, self-destructive, self-defeating, irresponsible and completely
autonomous


Type #4 Sexual Subtype

Can resemble 8s at times when they are feigning self-confidence, being intense, diminishing
others to make themselves seem important and over-stepping their boundaries
Tend to be the most extroverted, or at least assertive, of the three type 4 subtypes (also most
envious)
Positive/Enhancing:
• When healthy, are capable of truly admiring and deeply loving their partner
• Extremely accepting of other people’s individuality and right to express themselves
• Can engage with people deeply, authentically and passionately
• Can develop excellent communication and interpersonal relationship skills
• Able to be extremely open-hearted, compassionate and loving toward all sentient beings
Negative/Depleting:
• Long for a soul mate to come along and sweep them off their feet; to save them from an
ordinary life
• Tend to be especially attracted to people who are distant or unavailable
• Can have unrealistically high expectations of their partner to fit their ideal fantasy of a
mate
• Can have intense romantic and sexual longings; easily get infatuated with a romantic
interest

• Can be tender, vulnerable and sweet but also competitive, demanding, aggressive and
pushy

• Unconsciously yearning for the ideal partner perpetuates familiar feelings of lost love in
childhood

• Their love life can be tempestuous, dramatic, turbulent, stormy, etc. – they can
reject/disdain their partner by focusing on the flaws but then miss the great qualities and
want him/her back

• Strong fears of rejection and abandonment; sexual 4s have serious doubts about their
desirability

• Can be seductive, sexual, jealous and possessive (like 2s); relationship problems cause
depression

• Can be envious of people who seem more fulfilled and happy in their love life
• Can be competitive with any rivals that might threaten their romantic relationship
• Can envy or resent the very qualities in their mate they originally admired or wanted in
themselves
• At worst, get so emotionally distraught over love gone wrong that they kill themselves
and/or their lover

Type #4 Social Subtype

Tend to feel the most misunderstood and totally unlike anyone else of the three type 4 subtypes
Positive/Enhancing:
• Often are high achievers who participate in social causes; have unique talents and gifts to
share
• With their great intuition, can have excellent social skills, social sensitivities and great
manners
• Have an interest in the group’s welfare because they feel the group’s welfare is connected
to their own
• Give their time, energy and even money to improve conditions for people and/or the world
• They always have other people’s welfare in mind as well as their own
• They can be aware of group expectations but have enough self-esteem to do what’s best
for them
Negative/Depleting:
• Inner tension between wanting to fit in, be accepted and belong yet still be special, unique
and stand out
• Desire recognition but fear being embarrassed, humiliated, ridiculed or rejected by probing
eyes
• Can bolster up their image to compensate for social insecurities: dressing up to the nines,
having a unique social style/presentation, being glamorous but a little aloof, having elite
membership, etc.
• Often compare themselves with more “normal” people and feel either more deficient or
more elite

• Fear social encounters that might bring their deficiency or “fatal flaw” to light and
humiliate them

• Due to social shame, they can believe they don’t know how to function like normal people
• Can feel incapable of meeting the same standards that others in the group are capable of
meeting and fear that their defectiveness will eventually be found out and they will be
rejected by the group

• Easily feel ashamed/frustrated for not being able to live up to their own vision of their
ideal self

• Can be hypersensitive to criticism and devastated by being left out by a group of friends
• Often feel socially inept or inadequate – handle by being outwardly charming or just
blending in

• They constantly analyze everything they do or say for fear of looking foolish or making a
mistake

• Can be self-deprecating as a way to fit in and deflect their inner feelings of envy and
defectiveness
• They can feel as though other people have what is missing in their lives
• At worst, can be highly self-critical, antisocial and depressed, living with their shame in
isolation

• At worst, fear others loathe and condemn them because they (others) can read their weird
thoughts
______________________________________________
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
I relate to most all of the 4w5 subtype description, besides the negatives for the really unhealthy 4w5s. As a self-preservation 4 I identify with these.

Type #4 Self-Preservation Subtype
Can resemble Counterphobic 6s in their behavior, as well as 1s, at times
Tend to be the most introverted of the three type 4 subtypes
Positive/Enhancing:
• Can focus intently on work or a cause they believe in wholeheartedly
• Careful with money and possessions, don’t risk them foolishly chasing a pipedream
• Excellent at pointing out angles, perspectives or viewpoints that others had not considered
• Can be tenacious, determined and resolute to achieve their lofty goals (like 1s)
• Create aesthetically pleasing surroundings in their home that have emotional resonance
for them
• Meaningful objects, such as antiques or art, can appease romantic desires and longings
Negative/Depleting:

• Try to avoid the meaninglessness of a mundane existence by living on the edge and taking
risks
• Can discount basic self-preservation needs and tune mundane reality out in order to follow
a dream
((Sometimes))
Can be dauntless and throw caution to the wind to materialize their dream ((Same as above. Sometimes))
• Feel most alive when tempting fate (like Counterphobic 6s); can lead to crisis situations
• Can unconsciously recreate childhood losses in adulthood through reckless behavior
• Can feel lost between hope and despair and take risks to get attention or increase
emotional excitement
Stubborn refusal to give up their self-image of being someone special
• Can get defensive or angry when people mock their ideals and lifestyle or try to change
them
• Get rebellious when people try to tell them they should give up dreaming and be more
practical
• Get rebellious when people presume to know what they (the self-preservation 4) are
thinking and feeling
• Minor discomforts can seem unbearable – room temp. too hot or cold, lighting to bright or
dim, etc.

• Run by their emotional whims; indulge in bad habits (excessive eating, drinking, staying
up too late, love affairs, etc.) to make up for what is perceived to be missing and to
assuage their emotional lows
Can be too self-contained, self-destructive, self-defeating, irresponsible and completely
autonomous
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
No, the Heart triad must "create with an audience in mind." Heart doesn't represent passion, but visibility - being profoundly interpreted. It's about image, not feeling. That sentimental malarkey is a daffy myth. Also, 2s are very disciplined people, so wings in that direction aren't innately status-consumed. They're merely adaptable to human challenges they face, which comes with its own geo-socio-economic consequences.

The wing descriptions predictably reek of self-preservation dominant 4w5 favoritism. Sadly when profiled the 4w5 often enjoys a fleshed out treatment in comparison to its counterpart. The 4w3 method could mistakenly be seen as the more 'worldly' of the leanings. It leaves itself open to external vulnerability more easily than the 4w5, testing itself against competition before extensive planning. Such haste often results in conflicts which are later deciphered and rehashed with an intensity that rivals the preemptive nature of the 4w5. In fact it's this 3-ish part of being a 4 that moves the 4w5 into withdrawal. It wishes to avoid the premature exposure the 4w3 [somewhat masochistically] uses to improve itself. It dreads defeat earlier than the 4w3, which is why it isn't as 'quick to act,' and prefers more defensive gestures. However, make no mistake: 4w3s and 4w5s are generally every bit as ambitious and outgoing as each other. The only difference is that they solve for X differently.

More importantly, you can't compare the behaviors of a sp/sx 4w5 to a so/sx 4w3 without one seeming more stereotypically "tormented," so let's consider the subtypes before thinking 4w5s are simply the leaning of the visionaries. Uncontested descriptions like those are so annoying. Rant complete. The Social 4 part was me to a T.
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top