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How are 8s said to be innocent on the inside but at the same time have a cunning and deceitful side? When they said "the 8 protects his innocence" do they mean he's just emotionally innocent? like they're emotionally "childlike" and don't want their feelings hurt? I think I might be an so 8w9, I relate to most descriptions but my innocence is more like I don't have bad intentions and am overall good hearted.. but I'm sharp and see others motives easily so I strongly protect that side of me.

So I'm trying to figure out what kind of innocence 8s protect in themselves and do any other 8s relate to my kind of innocence?
 

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Yea it's along those lines. When you think innocence, you think of a happy child. A child who believes the world is good, that people are good, and who wants to giddily partake in the goodness.

Then you get exposed to ugliness. You callous over. You adopt the mentality that fire is to be fought with inferno. You learn the rules of the street, and you play the game on that level.

While promising yourself that you're doing it to protect what goodness does actually exist. But sometimes you get out of hand.
 

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they defend themselves and others, whom they defend is the innocent which includes themselves. If they are not innocent then they would fight for someone else.
 
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How are 8s said to be innocent on the inside but at the same time have a cunning and deceitful side? When they said "the 8 protects his innocence" do they mean he's just emotionally innocent? like they're emotionally "childlike" and don't want their feelings hurt? I think I might be an so 8w9, I relate to most descriptions but my innocence is more like I don't have bad intentions and am overall good hearted.. but I'm sharp and see others motives easily so I strongly protect that side of me.

So I'm trying to figure out what kind of innocence 8s protect in themselves and do any other 8s relate to my kind of innocence?
Yes, what you're describing is the "innocence", there is a lack of desire to hurt or manipulate people, to be honest and kind... That is the innocence. However, the fact of the matter is that as 8s we understand and accept the fact that the world isn't what it should be. It would be very nice to be able to hold hands with people and just be able to trust everyone. But people are not like that. It's unpleasant, but it's true. We didn't make the world this way, but there it is!

The "cunning and deceitful side" is what keeps us functioning in the real world. You could say it's a shield for the innocent side, it is, but there's more to it. It also serves a more pragmatic functional purpose. I am Machiavellian in the sense that I expect people to betray and lie and cheat, but innocent since I'm not the one initiating that behaviour and until someone acts like that towards me, I will not harm them. I don't do stuff like that for fun or out of boredom, not even to achieve objectives, I only strike back if someone provokes me. Otherwise, I try to be as polite and non-offensive as possible. Approach me in good faith and I will respond in good faith.
 

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How are 8s said to be innocent on the inside but at the same time have a cunning and deceitful side? When they said "the 8 protects his innocence" do they mean he's just emotionally innocent? like they're emotionally "childlike" and don't want their feelings hurt? I think I might be an so 8w9, I relate to most descriptions but my innocence is more like I don't have bad intentions and am overall good hearted.. but I'm sharp and see others motives easily so I strongly protect that side of me.

So I'm trying to figure out what kind of innocence 8s protect in themselves and do any other 8s relate to my kind of innocence?
Don't think about it too much.

I didn't sit down one day and devise and intellectual argument about what aspect of myself I can categorize as "innocent" and therefore needs protection. It's far simpler than that.

All people have the capacity to be monsters and savages. I would probably define innocence as whatever it is that keeps me from being a complete sociopath. It's a pretty small area, but I protect it, because once it's gone, there isn't much keeping me from being completely savage.

I don't have the impression that I'm a bad person, but I don't spend any time trying to be seen as a good person. I do what I have to do to survive, but there is some small part in me that wants to believe that people have the capacity to do good things. They usually disappoint me, so I don't expect people to be anything more than selfish bags of sh$t, but I keep alive that part of me that can recognize when people are more than that. It doesn't happen often. In the end, most people suck. But every once in a while, something magical happens, and I try to make sure that I can appreciate it.

It would seem that I've just described innocence, and why I feel that I need to protect it. Naive people get slaughtered, so if you have strong enough defenses, you can allow yourself the luxury of a little naivete.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I am Machiavellian in the sense that I expect people to betray and lie and cheat, but innocent since I'm not the one initiating that behaviour and until someone acts like that towards me, I will not harm them. I don't do stuff like that for fun or out of boredom, not even to achieve objectives, I only strike back if someone provokes me. Otherwise, I try to be as polite and non-offensive as possible. Approach me in good faith and I will respond in good faith.
I get it... I was just wondering if an 8 can actually be an 8 without that cunning deceitful side- or is it characteristic of the type? looking at your display photo do you think Daenerys (the character) is an 8??
 

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I get it... I was just wondering if an 8 can actually be an 8 without that cunning deceitful side- or is it characteristic of the type? looking at your display photo do you think Daenerys (the character) is an 8??
Hmmm... I think you can be an 8 even without it. You should never try to determine type based on one single characteristic. I see it done a lot, like with MBTI types. Oh, you can't be an extrovert because you don't like spending time with people... But what about the other 50 things I do which are extroverted? A lot of people latch on to one thing and think that's the key clue... no it's not, always look at the wider picture. Think of typing as a trial, one piece of evidence is (or should be) insufficient to get a conviction. It's multiple evidence that together paint a bigger picture. So, I think that not having one certain characteristic, may be unusual for an 8, but it doesn't exclude you from being an 8.

Yes, I do think Daenerys is an 8w9 for the first 6 seasons... Season 7 is a grey area and I'm not sure what they turn her into in season 8... It felt like I was watching an entirely different person who looked exactly like her, but wasn't her, with only a few flashes of her real self. But focusing on the first 6 seasons, her temperament is identical to mine, she generally made the same decisions I would have made in her place. It's the only fictional character that ever made me feel she was like me. I've seen other characters I liked, but I never felt they were like me. I think she's motivated more by power and a desire to protect the weak (integration at 2) than by justice. She expresses the anger and doesn't repress it like a 1 would.

Daenerys and a lot of characters, behave contrary to their established patterns in the final 2 seasons and this makes it hard to reach a definitive conclusion. I mean... "Her Satanic Majesty's request"??? "They both failed geography"??? "That's weird, but so is the new king"??? "Just a dumb bystander"??? I didn't believe these things were written in the actual script, I thought it was fake news or a joke or a just a meme, until I saw it on the Emmy Awards' official website... that's the writing quality of the final season... Sad, but true...
 

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Yeah.. Do you know what your socionics type is? Think I'm trying to figure out if compassionate "feelers" can be E8s
It doesn't matter. Neither Enneagram nor Socionics are a "thing." They either describe you well, or they don't. They either overlap, or they don't.

If you are looking for an identity, a personality typeology can only be so helpful. In the end, your identity is much healthier if it is made up of the choices that you make in the world, and a type description describes the decisions that you have observed yourself making. But that requires some history of independent choices, which is harder before the age range of 25 to 30ish.

As soon as the ego gets involved, it gets very complicated.

If you're an 8, good for you. If you're not an 8, good for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It doesn't matter. Neither Enneagram nor Socionics are a "thing." They either describe you well, or they don't. They either overlap, or they don't.

If you are looking for an identity, a personality typeology can only be so helpful. In the end, your identity is much healthier if it is made up of the choices that you make in the world, and a type description describes the decisions that you have observed yourself making. But that requires some history of independent choices, which is harder before the age range of 25 to 30ish.

As soon as the ego gets involved, it gets very complicated.

If you're an 8, good for you. If you're not an 8, good for you.
Bullshit. No personality theory is gonna be able to describe everyone accurately to the T. Thanks
 

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You said they either describe you or they don’t
I'm still not sure where the misunderstanding is coming from.

The reason that they either describe you or they don't is because they are a caricature. It would be unhealthy if they described you completely, but it is also possible that they don't describe you at all, because there are no empirically validated tests for either, so there is no way to know whether they accurately describe anyone.

I was suggesting that you not try too hard to reconcile two different typologies, because there will never be a way to no for certain if either accurately describes you. If it is useful to identify as one type or another, then that's wonderful. Beyond that, you would be trying to use the tools in a way that they cannot be used.
 

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theres not many things that could describe 100% of all things of a given type. be it people, plant, animal.

could i say ALL dogs have 4 legs? what about the rare exception that is born with 3? or 5?

it is both accurate and inaccurate, it is both bullshit and truth.

they are frameworks, loose character types within which there are many variants.

you guys are the buttface types, im the awesome type. simple as that.
 

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I am a healthy (8). I am PMS'ing like hell, so I've been feeling annoyed/angry for the past few days.

My "innocent" side comes out in my vulnerable side. When I get very emotional. Perhap(s) comes off somewhat innocent. Like an angry cotton ball. Makes specimens go "aww". I don't get it. Any other time, I am being "rude" and people complain.

There is also that "protective" side, that just turns into getting a fulfillment once you integrate, to nourishing others and sharing my strengthens to those that could use them beyond "just that one person you let it" - what little left I care. Before, I would not share a thing - not my strengthen(s) or weaknesses. I was by far the most selfish greedy human ever - just a fierce need to shield, feed and push things - now I give generously and vent healthy. Feel much better.

I do not like being rude, "deceitful" and do not like to hurt other(s). I rather not, I prefer not. I did when I was younger and off the hook, but not anymore. I like to make connections, not burn bridges. I like to make things happen - I won't sabotage opportunities + shoot myself for greatness with meanness & nonsense purposefully. There are no ill intentions - more often than not, I get corrected after the fact. I'll bring cupcakes the next day if that is your thing.
 
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