Personality Cafe banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm an INFP female and I meet up with a close friend of mine and his ENTJ friend.

One problem I have with his ENTJ friend is that... I always seem to be the one
initiating the conversation. I ask him questions and try to get to know him but he doesn't
ask a single thing about me. Once, I was talking to them about something that happened to me.
At least I thought I was talking to both of them until I saw the ENTJ guy busy on his phone.

The only time I managed to speak to him a lot more was when I asked him a question about
politics, which is his area of interest. I had to initiate it again and you know how tiring it gets if you're the only one doing the asking and initiating.

He seems like a nice guy but he seems to be closed. Is it difficult for ENTJ males to befriend women?
Do any ENTJ men have any INFP female friends? How does that work?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,157 Posts
I feel this is less a type thing and more "you don't register on his radar of important people and he's rude."

Don't bother. He's not worth your time.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
767 Posts
This guy sounds like me on occasions. Nice.

Maybe he's just not interested in you, nor is he in the mood to be attempting to establish new relationships. I understand the politics thing because that requires a level of discussion, conflict, and is lengthy. Questions that lead to discussion can get me into a conversation. Maybe try asking philosophical topics or something if you really want to him invested into the conversation. That, or just be patient. He's not going to open up to you easily. Maybe he's just incredibly shy around you because you're a stranger. The friend of my friend is never inherently my friend. They are a complete stranger to me, so what will apply are my actions toward strangers, and this might include going on my phone. It will sometimes feel like my friend is trying to balance both of their relationships with us separately instead of all of us becoming a single relationship.

That being said, I totally had INFP friends in high school (two female) mainly due to my mood creating good first impressions. When it comes to social environments, I'm either all in or not in, and when I'm all into an environment, it leads to people at least willing to accept your presence. How close we got depended on whether I was willing to open up to them. In the case of both, I ended up being that close after a while, but still conversed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
Hi @Solous ... great question and you have two equally good, yet different answers that I so very much want to tie together.

In case you would value my experience based advice with my ENTJ, here it is:
 

My ENTJ was like this with me at first too.
I met him in his mid-thirties. We worked in the IT division (different disciplines/teams) of the same corporation.

By his own admission and friends confirmation, he had "mellowed a bit" by the time I met him. I empathise with your confusion, and I can only imagine how much more puzzled I would have been, had I met my partner when we were younger.

@maust was right. My ENTJ wasn't that into me, even from a friendship perspective. And this, to me, is the key crossover between my experience and maust's message:
My partner was not going to be equally invested in our friendship, up front. So, I had to make an assessment as to whether and how much of my resources (time, thought, care, processing overheads etc) I was prepared to invest.

And @Bolderousness ... he's also right. My partner was both a nice person AND not interested. I could see his wonderful heart in sooo many little ways:
- He called ladies "Madame" and gentlemen "Sir," but when he said it, it felt ... sincere ... like he had a fundamental element of respect for everyone he spoke with (even though he usually walked around with his "fuck off n die" stare firmly fixed in place. The juxtaposition is always startling ... in a good way);

- The way he would step up and take command of a situation when he saw someone struggling and then hand back control when they had a handle on it again (even though I could sometimes see his jaw-line tense with the effort required to let go)

He showed so much complexity in his behaviour ... such beautiful contradictions, somehow synthesized into a congruent whole. It fascinated me.

But I hadn't intrigued him to anywhere near the degree that he had intrigued me. I sensed that he had not yet attributed, to me, a personal value beyond, "this is a fellow human being."

I could tell you how I intrigued him, but that may/may not be of any assistance to your situation. Besides, Bolderousness has already given you some great pointers based on your circumstances. It's great advice if you decide to invest further into the friendship.

Instead (to maust's point) I am going to encourage you to think about the following before you decide how to handle it:
- Why do you like him ... what qualities does he have that you admire?
- What can you learn from each other?
- Do you both value what the other can teach you?
- Is what he offers and the potential you see, likely to be worth the up front resource expenditure? (EDIT: Bearing in mind that potential =/= kinetic/action/reality on a 1:1 basis in most circumstances)

Btw, that last question ^^^, is the one that my ENTJ generally asks himself before he invests further in a pursuit. "Is it worth the investment of my stretched resources?"

The first time that my ENTJ explained that this also applied to people ... I gasped in shock and my heart started beating so hard. On the one hand, it seemed so ... cold. On the other, he was explaining what people had been trying to tell me for years: "look after yourself first, because you can't help anyone else if you cannot help yourself."

I knew the advice, but I didn't have the first clue about how to do it and not feel crap about myself for it. He taught me how to define better boundaries ... as I sensed he could. But had I met him earlier, he would not have been able to reach me. Neither of us were ready.

That wouldn't have made either of us inherently bad, but we would probably have been bad for each other. That's why I believe that benign self-protection (such as balancing openness by not initially over-investing) would have been good use of self-compassion, had I been unsure whether he and I were compatible friends.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound preachy or heartless :unsure:


Best of luck to you and I, for one, am glad that your finger slipped and caused you to post :happy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
@Sangoire
Actually, I found your post nice and informative - didn't find it preachy or heartless.:happy:

Here are some of the answers to your questions:
What do I like about him?
I like that he's inspirational. His short speech inspired me to study harder, which is a benefit for me.

What can you learn from each other?
Maybe I can learn a thing or two but he can't learn anything from me because he doesn't
even know me in depth.:crying:

@Bolderousness "The friend of my friend is never inherently my friend. They are a complete stranger to me, so what will apply are my actions toward strangers, and this might include going on my phone."
Thank you. This has given me insight on his action. :)

@maust
"Don't bother. He's not worth your time." Well... perhaps I made him seem bad than he really is.
But still, thank you for the support. :happy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
@Sangoire
Actually, I found your post nice and informative - didn't find it preachy or heartless.:happy:

Here are some of the answers to your questions:
What do I like about him?
I like that he's inspirational. His short speech inspired me to study harder, which is a benefit for me.

What can you learn from each other?
Maybe I can learn a thing or two but he can't learn anything from me because he doesn't
even know me in depth.:crying:
He inspires you to action? Excellent! That is one of the most precious gifts that my ENTJ + the ENTJ's on PerC regularly give me.

For some reason, the way these guys think ... that unfamiliar mixture of brutal honesty and owning only that which is yours to own, no more/no less ... it makes things snap into place and it lights a fire under my arse :laughing:

So I do understand. He has given you a mighty gift. Like me, do you wish to give him one in return to secure his continued investment to inspire your continued growth?

If yes, and he is an ENTJ, there is no trick to finding the right gift. He has quite literally, already told you. He values the very thing he has inspired in you. Forming goals and seeing them through to completion.

In order for me to get on my partner's radar, even as a friend, he had to see in me a basic, healthy foundation for growth through action. For him, continual inaction is ... boring (and inaction where he perceives that action is required ... that realllly ticks him off). One of the biggest compliments that my ENTJ perceives that he can pay to someone is that they are "interesting." Again, he means it very, very literally. He likes people who are interesting and interested/passionate. People who focus on accomplishing their objectives.

Just a thought:
Have you set SMART goals for yourself around your study?
 


When you meet one of your goals ... could you share it with him and let him know that he helped/inspired you to achieve it? Can you do so in a way that draws together:
- His words;
- A logical sounding summary of the lesson you learned; and
- The action/result of the application of the lesson?

Maybe a thoughtful email?

You'd be surprised at how rare such expressions of heartfelt and quantifiable gratitude are ... so it is a good start, imho.

The final thing I wanted to mention is, if you don't know what you have to teach him, that's ok. The reason I spoke of it is because I have a tendency to be very attuned to reciprocity ... I seem to link it with power balance or the health of the relationship. I have spoken with other NFP's (both irl and online) and they shared similar observations about themselves.

So, I wanted the opportunity to gently point out that (if he is anything like my partner) he is unlikely to learn from you until you have proven that:
1. You can listen, learn and grow yourself;
2. You are competent and/or interesting in a particular field/arena that he values; and
3. You have skills that he does not ... skills that may enhance his performance, in some way.

If you can accept that ^^^, great!! But if it is going to hurt you to accept his advice while he rejects your suggestions ... then ... please, consider whether the friendship dynamic on offer is enough to satisfy your emotional needs. Because, as @lordmercurio brilliantly articulated in the http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/597978-ask-entj-question-347.html#post38730746 thread, he is not necessarily reading or tracking your emotional data. So, he probably won't pick up that him continually rejecting your advice/suggestions might hurt you. He's not heartless, he's just not predisposed to valuing/reading/utilising emotional data, the same way that an NFP would.

I hope this helps.

Ooh, btw, if you want assistance on goal setting ... wow, have you come to the right sub-forum. Te dominants (ExTJ's) are a wealth of knowledge in goal setting, in my personal experience :happy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
@maust
"Don't bother. He's not worth your time." Well... perhaps I made him seem bad than he really is.
But still, thank you for the support. :happy:
Well I don't know what Maust actually meant but my first thought was that if someone isn't interested in you enought to iniate conversations trying to keep that friendship alive is not worth it. It's not about him being or not being worth it. Because it's not about your feelings about him. IMO it's just not worth it to try to "force" something that isn't there. If he doesn't care about your conversations enough to iniate them that is his choice. :) I don't try to be mean, I just wish that you wouldn't try too much if he isn't even interested.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
Well I don't know what Maust actually meant but my first thought was that if someone isn't interested in you enought to iniate conversations trying to keep that friendship alive is not worth it. It's not about him being or not being worth it. Because it's not about your feelings about him. IMO it's just not worth it to try to "force" something that isn't there. If he doesn't care about your conversations enough to iniate them that is his choice. :) I don't try to be mean, I just wish that you wouldn't try too much if he isn't even interested.
That's interesting. Some of the best teachers I have had have been people who are successful, but hard to reach. It's like I have to get past the hard shell in order to reach the creamy centre of knowledge. But then, maybe my subconscious reasoning is that I am driven where I see someone who may be able to bring out the best in me, despite my discomfort. I just don't delude myself into thinking that they owe me anything. Simply supply vs demand. If I require more of their resources, I must have something that interests them too. I don't tend to expect people to be interested in teaching/inspiring/leading/be-friending me, simply because I exist. I used to think that I had to teach them in return, for things to remain balanced, so I'd get stressy/sad/needy/climgy/try-hard when they wouldn't let me. But, I have found that I can give in other ways ... as long as I manage my own expectations appropriately.

What pitfalls do you see with this thinking? I ask because maybe my thinking on the subject is wrong and I like to keep an open mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
@Sangoire

Hhmm... But it's not just about your discomfort or what you want. If someone doesn't wanna iniate conversations/aren't interested in you it's their discomfort that counts. Your own discomfort is just the price you pay for what you want. Just make sure he doesn't pay for what you want if he is not doing it willingly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
@Sangoire

Hhmm... But it's not just about your discomfort or what you want. If someone doesn't wanna iniate conversations/aren't interested in you it's their discomfort that counts. Your own discomfort is just the price you pay for what you want. Just make sure he doesn't pay for what you want if he is not doing it willingly.
Well stated ... thank you :happy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
@Sangoire, Personally I don't share your mindset/seeing someone as your teacher/ interest of searching teachers. I observe and analyze people (and life in general) all the time so I don't see people as teachers - because it's not about what they wanna teach me but what I learn by observing them. Maybe we just describe it differently but I believe that we have very different approaches to the whole learning from others thing. The fact that you chose to use the word teacher reflects the way you see those certain people.

I find it very Fi+Si/Si+Fe to focus on the whole teacher/student layout. It's a little bit like a role play. I have seen it with my ISFJ and INFP friends. They seem to like the idea of taking a certain role and offering another role for the other person. For me it looks like your Fi+Si/Si+Fe says "I wanna feel like a student/the nerdy/brave/sensitive/artistic one in this relationship etc" and then it's just natural portraying the other person as someone/something that completes the story. In this context I would personally think that the whole idea of seeing someone as a teacher only steals the focus from the main point (observing and analyzing subject matter itself).

I wouldn't say that it's necessary a pitfall but it just always catch my eye.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sangoire

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
@Sangoire, Personally I don't share your mindset/seeing someone as your teacher/ interest of searching teachers. I observe and analyze people (and life in general) all the time so I don't see people as teachers - because it's not about what they wanna teach me but what I learn by observing them. Maybe we just describe it differently but I believe that we have very different approaches to the whole learning from others thing. The fact that you chose to use the word teacher reflects the way you see those certain people.

I find it very Fi+Si/Si+Fe to focus on the whole teacher/student layout. It's a little bit like a role play. I have seen it with my ISFJ and INFP friends. They seem to like the idea of taking a certain role and offering another role for the other person. For me it looks like your Fi+Si/Si+Fe says "I wanna feel like a student/the nerdy/brave/sensitive/artistic one in this relationship etc" and then it's just natural portraying the other person as someone/something that completes the story. In this context I would personally think that the whole idea of seeing someone as a teacher only steals the focus from the main point (observing and analyzing subject matter itself).

I wouldn't say that it's necessary a pitfall but it just always catch my eye.
This too, is interesting. Thank you for sharing your observation. My mother is an ISFJ and a teacher (as I have previously mentioned to you, when you were teaching me about Fe) ... so there is some truth in what you say about me. Teacher/student is probably my oldest pattern. As my tri-type is 9w1 4w3 5w6, it kinda makes sense that I find both security and stress in knowledge.

For me, it has always felt like people have a burning desire to teach me. Sort of like, they can't help themselves. When I ask them about it, I usually get variations on the same answer:
"You seem intelligent, but naive. How can you be so smart and so dumb, all in the same sentence?"

What a Dom Ni or Te user may not see is that, this judgement hurts my pride (Fi). It feels like someone is placing themselves above me. Most of my early years were spent trying to toughen myself up so that I could hear that answer and NOT feel threatened by it to the point of over-reacting. (Btw, for me, over-reacting = either complete withdrawal to bash myself up for my stupidity - FiSi; or verbally ripping out someone's jugular to prove my toughness - NeTe *sad sigh for both*).

The most logical way I can describe it is, I get a fear reaction and the accompanying adrenaline (fight/flight/freeze) response. I perceive that I had to learn how to use the adrenaline differently. The thing that seems to work best for me is when I opt to get excited, rather than scared.

I make an assumption that when someone lights up my brain, either positively or negatively, it is because my subconscious has detected potentially useful information. I further assume that my baby-Te is trying to connect with my Fi and form a unified judgement about THEM, so that I can excuse myself from facing ME ... in order to preserve both:
- My own model of the world; and
- My inner harmony.

So, I offer them the role of teacher ... because when my pride is invoked, historically, it has been a short step for me to fall into assuming that I know exactly what their problem/issue/perspective is. That doesn't typically lead anywhere good, for me. I would rather be open and excited than closed and combative.

The pitfalls that I experience again and again, with that strategy, are:
- Sharing my rich inner world, makes me feel more vulnerable, and therefore makes me more likely to over-react when I perceive a challenge to it; and
- I am prone to allowing others to excite my pride until I believe all sorts of bullshit that isn't true/right/real except from their or my own model/perspective of the world.

Due to the above, I prefer to get to know someone from the outside in and then the inside out. Like you, I stand back and observe.

Unlike you/your statement, it is not for the purpose of analysing them. It is for the purpose of analysing me in relation to them. Can I pick up what they are laying down, without destabilising my rich inner world and therefore, my balance (9w1)? Can I retain my humility in their presence? Or, is it going to devolve into a ham-fisted attempt to control each other in order to make each other "see?"

Once I get a sense that I can take it, I approach and I start probing where commonalities intersect. I expose my analysis and paradigms (SiTe), in lieu of my rich inner world (FiNe). I observe how they treat my factual data ... if it demonstrates respect for humanity (both in a local and global context) I start sharing more of myself.

If I start perceiving myself as sliding back into old habits (over-reacting, making judgements about others or whatever unhealthy pattern I perceive), I cease communication. In the past, I have done so at the height of my judgement ... and in doing so, may have hurt others by insinuating that they caused my problems. These days, I try to own that I have allowed my battle with comfort/discomfort to take me back to places which are not healthy for me and I request that they respect my wish to depart their presence.

If that approach makes me appear brave/nerdy/artistic/sensitive to you, I am happy to wear those labels in your mind ... they are all great qualities. But, it is only part of how I perceive myself. :happy:

Ne drives me to understand the whole picture ... not just the parts that are immediately relevant to me/them/the situation (that's just a convenient starting point, to me). I perceive that I get a bigger picture when I step outside the safety of my perspective, rather than delude myself into thinking that I am wise in my own knowledge.

It's like when Rebecca.M shared this:
http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/603522-relationship-questions-191.html#post38624202

I was sooo freakin' shocked ... I could NEVER speak the way she suggested to anyone in anger (except myself, ironically) let alone someone that I adore, like my ENTJ. I would perceive it as me using my fear to attack the masculinity that he uses with love, to protect, nurture and pleasure me.

But then, the ENTJ's constantly remind me that they don't NEED things to be NICE + I trust them to know what an ENTJ needs, better than I do + I hope that an ENTJ like MsBossy, Mr Canis, Handsome Jack, Duo (thank you so much for doing so in a gender-neutral context, Duo), Fumetsu, BIGJake, lordmercurio, furryfury, Red Onion, maust or bolderousness will provide an adjustment/counter-balance.

So, I thanked it ... not because I agree with Rebecca.M, but because it is so far removed from anything that I would have thought to do. It gave me a different perspective to ask my ENTJ about. (Btw, he confirmed that his 3w4 would hate that approach as much as an 8w7 would and as much as my 9w1 hates to do it).

I agree, it is a convoluted way of obtaining my data ... that's why I needed your missing piece SB. You are right, my need for knowledge/data/inspiration should not come at the cost of others. You are wiser than I, in the ways of Fe.

I have been feeling the polarisation increase along gender lines within the ENTJ sub-forum, lately, and I begin to worry about how much my scattered approach contributes to this. I am gender fluid ... I don't understand the need to divide by gender. I never have. As a child, it was my main source of frustration ... "don't tell me I should/shouldn't/can/can't because I am too <masculine/feminine/insert whatever other biological difference you perceive in me> ... everyone is more than the sum of their parts" type thinking.

So, I thank posts that help me understand it better, not necessarily just the ones that I agree with. They remind me of the harmonic societal conventions (Fe) or the unique personal harmony interpretations (Fi) that I might unwittingly trip over when I assume that my way is the only way. I simply don't think about what others may infer from my "thanks." It's why I don't do social media, as a general rule. I can't always explain/defend immediately why the data has lit me up.

I am truly sorry if I have caused anyone pain. I tend to think of ENTJ's as mentally tough enough to ignore me, call me out directly on my erroneous assumptions/bothersome behaviour or ask me questions if they are curious at a perceived disparity. I assumed that because I haven't been told directly, that I am not bothering people. You remind me that I may be, especially in light of the current political climate.

I think that I will follow the example of the ENTJ's I admire most and take a break from PerC. In their absence, I do not seem to be able to maintain my centre of balance to a high enough standard for my own comfort.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scarlet.Black

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
For me, it has always felt like people have a burning desire to teach me. Sort of like, they can't help themselves. When I ask them about it, I usually get variations on the same answer:
"You seem intelligent, but naive. How can you be so smart and so dumb, all in the same sentence?"

What a Dom Ni or Te user may not see is that, this judgement hurts my pride (Fi). It feels like someone is placing themselves above me. Most of my early years were spent trying to toughen myself up so that I could hear that answer and NOT feel threatened by it to the point of over-reacting. (Btw, for me, over-reacting = either complete withdrawal to bash myself up for my stupidity - FiSi; or verbally ripping out someone's jugular to prove my toughness - NeTe *sad sigh for both*).
My friend is also INFP 9w1 so I think I know what you mean. See it's easy to see that she observes a lot but then it seems like she would almost avoid making the last call/logical conclusion about reality. I know that's why I feel like I should be there for her to go through the facts (and her feelings of course) and help her to create workable solutions. But sadly it seems like her pride is always there to resist reality because she doesn't wanna feel inept. Accepting reality could make her feel inept so she try to avoid reality at any cost if it seems too negative. See the real problem isn't that she is inept - she is just too proud to actually face the idea that see might be inept/not able to handle her problems. :unsure: Actually I have 4 Fi dom friends who do the same thing...


If that approach makes me appear brave/nerdy/artistic/sensitive to you, I am happy to wear those labels in your mind ... they are all great qualities. But, it is only part of how I perceive myself. :happy:
I think that I didn't word my thoughts that well. I mean that especially Fi doms seem to have this urge to create this ideal personality for themselves in their head and try to execute that ideal personality in real life. I am sure that we all do that at some level but with Fi doms it's easier to notice. The thing is that sometimes when you have this ideal self in your head you are also looking for that ideal person to complete your story. Sometimes my INFP friends are so focus on their ideals (about themselves and others) that they actually give people roles that might fit them but doesn't work in a long run. Like the ideal role of teacher or savior - it might actually become true - but because of reality it takes a lot from that other person and what seem like a ideal story in their head end up looking something very overwhelming in real life. I am not saying that this is what you do - it's just something that I have witnessed with INFPs in my life.


I agree, it is a convoluted way of obtaining my data ... that's why I needed your missing piece SB. You are right, my need for knowledge/data/inspiration should not come at the cost of others. You are wiser than I, in the ways of Fe.
Just keep in mind that my thoughts aren't necessary required advices since I don't know your situation. :tongue:
So if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Meaning that if people in your life are okay with your methods there is no need for change.

I have been feeling the polarisation increase along gender lines within the ENTJ sub-forum, lately, and I begin to worry about how much my scattered approach contributes to this. I am gender fluid ... I don't understand the need to divide by gender. I never have. As a child, it was my main source of frustration ... "don't tell me I should/shouldn't/can/can't because I am too <masculine/feminine/insert whatever other biological difference you perceive in me> ... everyone is more than the sum of their parts" type thinking.
I am sure ENTJ forum is fine :p I don't give damn about people's beliefs so I don't care to defend mine neither. People can divide me by my gender or how ever they want - it's not like their beliefs would matter to me anyway.



I am truly sorry if I have caused anyone pain. I tend to think of ENTJ's as mentally tough enough to ignore me, call me out directly on my erroneous assumptions/bothersome behaviour or ask me questions if they are curious at a perceived disparity. I assumed that because I haven't been told directly, that I am not bothering people. You remind me that I may be, especially in light of the current political climate.

I think that I will follow the example of the ENTJ's I admire most and take a break from PerC. In their absence, I do not seem to be able to maintain my centre of balance to a high enough standard for my own comfort.
Now you lost me. I am not sure what you think that I was suggesting...? :shocked: If ENTJs on forum would be bothered by something you do they would tell you that or just ignore you. Don't read to much into things :wink:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cobble

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,137 Posts
My friend is also INFP 9w1 so I think I know what you mean. See it's easy to see that she observes a lot but then it seems like she would almost avoid making the last call/logical conclusion about reality. I know that's why I feel like I should be there for her to go through the facts (and her feelings of course) and help her to create workable solutions. But sadly it seems like her pride is always there to resist reality because she doesn't wanna feel inept. Accepting reality could make her feel inept so she try to avoid reality at any cost if it seems too negative. See the real problem isn't that she is inept - she is just too proud to actually face the idea that see might be inept/not able to handle her problems. :unsure: Actually I have 4 Fi dom friends who do the same thing...

:

Well damn, Fi truly exposed in this post here. I imagine this is my core issue with being confronted by Te doms. That prideful defense against "feeling" inept. Through that feeling we can feel disgusted with ourselves, thinking we ought to know how to do this or that because any normal human-being/adult knows how to do this so what does this say about us if we don't, that all our insecurities about being inept are right and we are defective somehow. It's much easier to wallow in that than accept the solution that might make you feel inept for a temporary amount of time.


I am also confused by @Sangoire's response and why she feels she needs to take a break from perC, many people appreciate and even rely on your insights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
@Lord Pixel and @Bolderousness ... I regret that I confused you with my apology.
 

SB's opinion made me evaluate whether I was being unintentionally manipulative, to the detriment of others, by offering the role of teacher/student. She made me conscious that I may be forcing others into an uncomfortable mould. It is the third time something she has said has resonated inside me this way. So, I figured that I was stressing her because I had already examined the behaviour she's suggesting I be wary of and determined that it wasn't/isn't damaging to me or my partner. (Cross checked and confirmed with a "wtf stare" from my ENTJ).

I wondered whether maybe it ticked her off to be called on, by me, in the Relationship thread ... or maybe by the resulting post (from RM) to my request. And whether maybe she felt driven to couch it in a "universal" sense of "INFP's and ISFJ's offer roles when they shouldn't", rather than simply asking me not to do so with her in future ... either that, or that she may be speaking on behalf of someone who does not wish to confront me, directly ... *shrugs*

I wasn't sure, so I responded, in kind ... a universal apology for whatever I have done that has bothered her and to anyone who felt that I had done the same to them. I know I have gaps in my knowledge and so I ask others for their perspective. I try to provide specific parameters where I think my answer needs improving, in order to:
- Demonstrate that I know I don't have all the answers;
- Keep myself open to new inputs; and
- Try and give others a different basis for their answers than tired, unimaginative gender stereotyping.

That last point has always been my very un-hidden agenda. *INFP anti-:ninja: sighs the sigh of Sisyphus*


LP, I will not be coming back to PerC for a while because my life is full of wonderful things to explore and do + there isn't really much more that I can tell you + I am getting frustrated and grumpy over gender-baiting/gender-based insults in a forum designed to encourage understanding of self and other through communication. It seems like a kind of gross perversion of purpose, to me. It hurts and I see no benefits in living near that pain.


However, I wanted to leave this thread with a condensed version of the build up of requirements I noticed throughout my friendship --> relationship with my ENTJ.

I have shared bits of it before, so it will probably sound familiar. I can confirm that it has been checked with my partner for accuracy.

Please note, this info pertains to me and my relationship. I do NOT speak on behalf of all INFP/ENTJ relationships, everywhere. My comments, as always, are intended to supplement (an INFP's perception of a particular ENTJ's requirements), not supplant information provided by the ENTJ's:

Stats that may influence perception
Him
Age: Gen X
MBTI Type: ENTJ bordering INTJ (Corporate assessment)
Enneagram Tritype: 3w4 8w9 6w7
Industry: Corporate IT - Upper Management (Architecture, Security, Innovation and Training)
DISC Comm Style: D --> I

Me
Age: 39
MBTI Type: INFP bordering ENFP & ISTJ (Corporate assessment)
Enneagram Tritype: 9w1 4w3 5w6
Industry: Corporate IT - Middle Management (Software Testing, Business Analysis)
DISC Comm Style: S --> I

Requirements
These were the minimum entry requirements for serial acquaintance status:
- Know and invest in myself first ... be my own number one priority in the healthiest most balanced possible way;
- Manage my own expectations around things like quantity of time invested, intensity of the friendship and how much emotion I think I "should be" invoking;
- Realise that he "owes" me nothing except what he has stated he will deliver;
- When asking for help, be clear about what my goal is ... ask direct questions ... provide direct answers;
- When standing up for what I believe in ... join the dots as succinctly, creatively and stylishly (3w4) as possible;
- Be genuinely kind and centred while telling the truth as I see it ... he gets the strangest look on his face (somewhere between suspicion and hope) ... don't read it as fear or anger ... don't interpret it at all ... just be consistent with the behaviour;
- Accept feedback in the spirit that it is intended and ask for clarification rather than become emotionally reactive; and MOST importantly
- Be myself ... he enjoys quirkiness when it enriches the overall effect/presence. He finds most things and people to be a bit linear/predictable ... finding someone who is congruent with themselves, but who also delivers beyond what he expects of them, can really capture his attention. My working theory is that it challenges his TeNi prediction-engine, in some way.

In addition to the above, these were the minimum entry requirements for friendship:
- Be justifiably proud of my achievements, but humble in the face of greater knowledge (to him, the best proof of greater knowledge = results (Te) + ingenuity (Ni) + application (Se) + "ring of truth" (Fi reinforcement of Te judgement));
- Own where I am wrong/weak and fix it, compensate for it or find someone else to complain to, about it. If I am fixing or compensating adequately, I can expect encouragement and guidance in the form of patient suggestions and helpful feedback stated kindly (3w4 + ISTJ, ENFP and ISFJ exes made him conscious of his impact on others). If I am not fixing it, AND persist in talking about it, I can expect to see (not-so micro) expressions of disgust/frustration or teasing thrown my way until I do. My partner perceives himself as having the good intention of helping someone to "toughen up" or that he is "kicking them out of a rut" ... if it doesn't make the person tougher, if it makes them lash out to protect their weakness ... he reads it as a lack of stability and potentially a lack of self-respect;
- Be a person of action in x (where x = something that invokes both my Fi-passion and my Te-drive to succeed). He doesn't expect people to be as driven as he is, but he seems to draw inspiration from seeing little glimmers of excellence in random places ... it kinda keeps him coming back for a closer look.

In addition to the above, these were what I found to be essential for transitioning between friendship to a closer bond:
- Construct a common language based on distilled conceptual phrases ... think of it as short hand to avoid perpetual "It's not about the nail" conversations;
- Be my own Captain: make my own plans/decisions for my own ship ... don't seek to hijack his. If he can clearly see (ie the objective evidence and gut feel coincide) that I am a better Captain than he is for particular waters, I set the "point of sail" while he climbs the crows nest. Lol, yes, he still shouts stuff from up there, but they are observations, not orders ... even though they can sound like orders sometimes;
- Understand what I bring to the table in both an objective and a subjective context ... don't under or over inflate an objective value with a subjective sentiment unless the subjective worth has been established and openly agreed to by both parties; and, most importantly
- Be prepared to explain/defend how/why I see things differently, AND be on the lookout for where we are both saying the same thing, but arguing over which inputs/outputs are "most" important. Our perception functions are each others blind-spots.

He and I can both be incredibly ... umm ... willful. I hate being told what to do, and he hates being told how to get things done ... lol. It is an interesting dance that can feel clunky and strained sometimes until we sync up, hence the short-cut language to streamline :)

Given the variance/complexity of our evolving lives and attitudes, it is awesome when two people reflect/bounce well together. When they can do it in multiple contexts and/or at a common values level, it indicates greater potential. When they can also make each other feel stronger and more well-rounded, both within the dynamic and when they are apart ... it is nothing short of a miracle ... an outlier on the graph ... a statistical anomaly.

Our romance mythology seeks to teach that each of us is owed a statistical anomaly. There are many ways it is phrased ... "soulmate", "the one", "behind every good man is a good woman" or "you have found her, now go and get her", to name a few.

It is a pretty ideal that is meant to bring us comfort and optimism ... but I have found that the harder one grasps at it, the more elusive the desired result becomes. The only thing that has ever worked for me, long term, is doing the things that make me a stronger, healthier person. When I am in that mindset, I seem to attract like-minded people. That's why I offer the role of teacher to those I wish to learn from ... because it keeps me strong and focused on myself in the healthiest possible way.

But as SB said, and I stand behind her on this point ... it MUST be consensual and within the limits of personal comfort for both parties.

As a final thought, I'd like to challenge that it is a Logical conclusion (Te) --> ineptness that an INFP fears ... in my experience it is the Decisions and Actions (Ni & Se) that are required and the unfamiliar Judgements (Fe & Ti) that the decisions and actions may attract that I fear most. I have absolutely no confidence that I will be able to roll-back either Ni or Se, if/when I get it wrong. They are the functions that lag behind and threaten to cripple me, if I allow it.

Lord Pixel, I hope that assists and I wish you every success in finding your bliss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
614 Posts
@Solous I love INFPs. They are kind, warm and huggable in a soft fuzzy way. They know about how they feel and about feelings in general. They are emo connoisseurs and know what gives a particular emo. I love talking about values and meaning and subjective things with INFPs. They are Fi experts so I ask them for emo advice often.

ENTJ Te and Ni leads to a busy life. Lots of times ENTJ are busy thinking about something project, work or money related. If you want something to talk about for a long time, just ask about money issues or life goals and strategy. So INFP and ENTJ can help each other develop their inferior functions.

I'm not sure I ever met an INFP female before. It would be interesting. INFP are more fun to talk to about emo since unlike INFJ, you can ask them how they are feeling and they can tell you exactly what's happening. I like to ask them how different things make them feel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
960 Posts
I'm not sure I ever met an INFP female before. It would be interesting. INFP are more fun to talk to about emo since unlike INFJ, you can ask them how they are feeling and they can tell you exactly what's happening. I like to ask them how different things make them feel.
If you had not talk or meet an INFP ( for sure) how you can make an affiramtion about if they are fun to talk or not?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
614 Posts
I'm not sure I ever met an INFP female before. It would be interesting. INFP are more fun to talk to about emo since unlike INFJ, you can ask them how they are feeling and they can tell you exactly what's happening. I like to ask them how different things make them feel.
If you had not talk or meet an INFP ( for sure) how you can make an affiramtion about if they are fun to talk or not?
I have lots of INFP guy friends. So I try to extrapolate. Like by imagining if they were of an opposite gender. They aren't very gendered so its easier to do than with an ESTP guy friend. I wonder which things would feel different.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top