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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So a discussion I had with Merc about her type prompted me to think about this and post it. I don't think it needs to be said that I want this issue to be discussed freely or that obviously I have been here a much shorter time than many of you and that possibly my observations are clouded with inexperience, both in this forum and in MBTI in general, but whatever. If you don't like it, I advise you to comment on it.

Now this discussion prompted me to write this because I see that a lot of people do not agree with Mercurius typing herself as ENTJ (or XNTJ, as we were finding, but I think that she is ENTJ, just with a particularly well-developed Ni, from the information I've received anyway.) It was also because at the start of my time here, I was in a struggle to decide my type (ESTJ or ENTJ.) Further research into cognitive functions makes me pretty damn sure of my type, but I've also began to notice some other things.

At the outset, let's examine a few things about ENTJs and this forum in particular.

1. ) ENTJ is one of the most stereotyped MBTI types here on PerC, in my opinion (alongside some others like INTJ, INFP, etc.) This means that it is easy to quickly say "I don't think you are an ENTJ" if you do not follow the stereotypical pattern. I think we all know that being an ENTJ doesn't mean that you wake up in the morning wearing the uniform of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht. Yet it appears to me that some people do believe that stereotypes make MBTI. For instance on JHBowden's youtube vlog there is a comment "You are eating while making this video, which means you are definetly not one of us." I don't know whether this was made in jest or not but I think it typifies the strength of stereotypism in MBTI.

2. ) The ENTJ stereotype is a conventionally desirable stereotype. Many conventionally desirable attitudes are stereotypically attached to ENTJs; material success, strength of character, honesty etc, none of which are anywhere near necessarily the case. When somebody says "ENTJ", consider the first things that you are "supposed to" think of (no, not yourself.) I think that is a case in point.

3. ) Intuition snobbishness. There is a gigantic amount of snobbish attitudes on this site from intuitors towards sensors. There are a lot of people who will claim others are sensors if they see them as intellectually inferior or do not hold the sort of interests that they do, or even if they have certain political beliefs that aren't seen to be "progressive" or "intuitive." It seems common that intuitors like their rarity and want to preserve the image of it. I have said before that 50% of this subforum is half the people accusing the other half of not being ENTJs. That isn't true, actually (although it still amuses me) and this subforum is honestly one of the better ones, but I think as a tongue-in-cheek comment it holds a little bit of weight. If someone comes to the ENTJ subforum wondering whether they're an ENTJ, consider how likely it is that the response from us will be in the affirmative. It's more likely they'll get a "we don't like your type around here" attitude (literally.)

Now, collecting these points, we can see that it is common and easy for others to say that a person is not an ENTJ based on factors that are at best misguided or at worst totally irrelevant. Now I would like to present some counterpoints about why I don't think that this is a particularly good thing.

1. ) I think it is quite hard to mistype as ENTJ. Let's start on what ENTJs could feasibly be mistyped as.
ESTJ - Si instead of Ni auxiliary
ENTP - Totally different cognitive functions. Te > Ni - Ne > Ti. Not comparable.
INTJ - Valid claim. But I'm not certain that there is so much functional difference between, say, an INTJ with a developed Te and an ENTJ with a developed Ni.
ENFJ - Fe vs Te. Not comparable.

The most feasible, out of all of these (if we ignore INTJ -- it's really missing the point, because to type an ENTJ as INTJ and visa versa is not really controversial, is it now?) is ESTJ. This is because ENTP does not fit any of the cognitive functions of ENTJ, and because Fe in ENFJ and Te in ENTJ are, while similar in that they're Je, scarcely comparable enough to say "Actually you're a mistyped ENFJ."

So let's look at ESTJ, and not only because it's the most feasible, because I believe that it's the most common.
ESTJ: Te > Si > Ne > Fi
ENTJ: Te > Ni > Se > Fi

Si vs Ni is no contest. Si people go by what they know and are down to earth, in tune with their surroundings. Ni is constantly "on the look out" and is extremely hypothetical whereas Si doesn't work in hypothetics, it works in the opposite of hypothetics. Ne vs Se is less obvious, but that's the tertiary function and the massive difference between Ni and Si is the important thing. Secondarily, they are both introspective, so you may not know when someone is using their Ni (even though Te may prompt them to voice it.) Just saying things like "You focus on the details too much in your post" is not a legitimate reason to assert that somebody uses Si and not Ni.

ENTJs do have sensing, it's their tertiary, and ESTJs the same with intuition. So to say that an ENTJ who is showing a sensation function is a sensor because of that is absolute nonsense, and the same is true of ESTJs and mistyping with ENTJ if such a thing does occur. It is simply not enough to show that somebody uses S or N in a particular situation. It must be demonstrable that those functions are either their auxiliary or dominant functions. To do this you must know them to a good enough degree. I doubt very much that a paragraph or two of introduction is enough to do so when, say, I (although a novice at MBTI) have difficulty typing my oldest friends or my parents.

In the last analysis, trust is the important factor here. By all means, advise people on MBTI -- point them in the right direction of research materials (and I'm so very glad for all the people who have done this for me ... especially the tireless work of my secretary, Calysco, whom I abuse far too little and pay far too much) but do not believe that you are so outstanding in the field of Myers Briggs that you can judge people's cognition better than they can from a very basic amount of information that they have provided to you.

My conclusion is that because someone does not follow established ENTJ stereotype protocol, because they do not act in the same way as you do or have differing opinions, or just because they aren't macho macho with a fat bank account or a general's lapel on their uniform doesn't mean they are not cognitively functioning like an ENTJ.

If you believe that this behaviour I have attacked applies to you and you feel offended in some way, please respond however you like.

HOWEVER, I would like to end on the note that I'm grateful for the people who thought I was a sensor and entertained my questions and quizzed me so on about my MBTI type when I first joined because it has led me to a greater understanding.
 

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Well written, interesting about the similarities for ESTJ.
Also I dislike the mistype of "Youre not an ENTJ, youre an ENFJ", cog functions are vastly different.
I think people need to pay closer attention to those rather than using the differences with the "letters" only, they aren't of any relevance.
 

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I'm frankly amused by ENTJs giving other people shit. Giving people shit is a distinct art form-- that's part of the fun and magic of, let's say, Groucho Marx:


Today we're all sensitive and feminized and tolerant and nice, which is why so much contemporary humor is poop and farts. Still, since giving other people shit is a risky business, if you must dump on someone, make sure to do it with style. (And no, I don't care about Marx's MBTI type, and you shouldn't either.)
 

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I think it is quite hard to mistype as ENTJ.
Yet it was intj before, and most of the alleged intjs I have known were mistyped.

Interesting post, but it doesn't say a lot about her actual personality. I don't see the relevance, really.
 
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That wasn't the point of this thread.
I don't see the point at all then. It starts out in defense of you being an entj, then you thank him in another post for having your back (very indicative of 6, not 8, btw).

Also, back at global, you were so certain of being an sfp, and honestly, I think it fit perfectly. I have watched your type go from isfp, to intj (a common mistype for introverted sps), to entj, and I just don't see it at all. Now the enneagram is supposedly 8, which is even further in the wrong direction.

I think a lot of people just humor you when it comes to this, and keep their mouth shut about the obvious mistype, but I doubt anything I say will get through, since you have worked so hard to convince yourself of this (something I see some isfps and 6s do a lot actually when mistyping).

I'm telling you this because I care. If a friend had a booger on their face, you would tell them, right. ; P
 
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I don't see the point at all then. It starts out in defense of you being an entj, then you thank him in another post for having your back (very indicative of 6, not 8, btw).

Also, back at global, you were so certain of being an sfp, and honestly, I think it fit perfectly. I have watched your type go from isfp, to intj (a common mistype for introverted sps), to entj, and I just don't see it at all. Now the enneagram is supposedly 8, which is even further in the wrong direction.

I think a lot of people just humor you when it comes to this, and keep their mouth shut about the obvious mistype, but I doubt anything I say will get through, since you have worked so hard to convince yourself of this (something I see isfps and 6s do a lot actually).

I'm telling you this because I care. If a friend had a booger on their face, you would tell them, right. ; P
First of all, this post was about ENTJs + BEING MISTYPED in GENERAL. He was reasoning from his own point of views and just mentioned he had talked about it to me recently. He's not having my back here, I simply thanked him because I think this post was insightful and dealt with a couple of stereotypes which seem to go around this forum which aren't really representative of most real people :p. Plus it gave some extra explanation about functions/function orders.

If you want an explanation about the whole ISFP INTP NTJ thing, you should go look on my blog.

If people find it humorous that's more than fine by me it makes me smile cos frankly it doesn't matter. We (as in most members and I) don't even know each other.

Thanks for caring.
 

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What the hell. First of all, this post was about ENTJs + BEING MISTYPED in GENERAL. He was reasoning from his own point of views and just mentioned he had talked about it to me recently. He's not having my back here in any way, I simply thanked him because I think this post was insightful and dealt with a couple of stereotypes which seem to go around this forum which aren't really representative of most real people :p.

If you want an explanation about the whole ISFP INTP NTJ thing, you should go look on my blog.

If people find it humorous that's more than fine by me it makes me smile cos frankly it doesn't matter. We don't even know each other.

Thanks for caring.
When I respect someone, I'll give them my honest opinion, even if it makes them get defensive. No reason for defensiveness though really, when clearly I'm wrong - so what does it matter. :wink:
 

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When I respect someone, I'll give them my honest opinion, even if it makes them get defensive. No reason for defensiveness though really, when clearly I'm wrong - so what does it matter. :wink:
I'm happy you gave your opinion to me, honestly. I just find you were off topic and you also seem very convinced of your views/your typing manners, plus on me in regard to type without really considering much else.

(I edited my post's tone because it came off the wrong way. :D)
 

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I'm happy you gave your opinion to me, honestly. I just find you were off topic and you also seem very convinced of your views/your typing manners, plus on me in regard to type without really considering much else.

(I edited my post's tone because it came off the wrong way. :D)
Its all good. I figured it was related because of how the OP had mentioned you.
 
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Its all good. I figured it was related because of how the OP had mentioned you.
Aight.
Again; That wasn't the main thing going on though. I don't really see this post as related to / focused on me. He actually mentioned more about other examples. It's a shout-out in general.
I may be wrong but it looks like you think I was aware of Diph making this post. I wasn't. Seems to me he made it because he found it necessary to share certain information in order to clear things up and I think he wrote a decent piece, that's why I enjoy it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Prom I think you're misinterpreting the point. The thread does not address anyone directly. I just used Merc as an example. Bowden is also mentioned ^_^ (as am I.)
 
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