[Elistra]

This woman is brilliant. I wish only that I had read her post at the start of my relationship with my ENTJ.

Many of the things that this threa has touched on, particularly the quoted post is very applicable to me.
I'm the ESFJ girl, and he's the ENTJ guy.

Many of you have stated how you do not "get" ESFJ's or vice versa.
As an ESFJ myself, I can definitely say there are ESFJ that I do not like to spend too much company with.
Each personality type has their own crazies.
I mean, Hitler was an ENTJ, that doesn't mean that all the ENTJ that you know are going to start genocide.
As with everything, you have to be balanced.

Hitler was an INFJ, supposedly.

 

[Grandeur]

Te > Ni (ENTJ) vs Fe > Si (ESFJ) means we perceive and judge the world completely differently. I currently live with my ENFJ partner and her ESFJ mother. Let me tell you first hand how challenging this can be living in a household with Fe doms while being a Te dom. We approach issues and interpersonal disputes completely differently and it's challenging reaching mutual agreement.

Just the other day my girlfriend was feeling overwhelmed with her exam revision in which she started crying, this then triggered her mum to start crying. Meanwhile I'm sitting there trying to logically explain how everything will be fine, how's she's done adequate revision and is contemplating worst case scenarios and it's quite normal to experience before going into an exam. But nope, ENTJ approach was not very effective... I was told I was insensitive and didn't care because I wasn't crying with them.

 

[Mr.Adrian]

Te > Ni (ENTJ) vs Fe > Si (ESFJ) means we perceive and judge the world completely differently. I currently live with my ENFJ partner and her ESFJ mother. Let me tell you first hand how challenging this can be living in a household with Fe doms while being a Te dom. We approach issues and interpersonal disputes completely differently and it's challenging reaching mutual agreement.

Just the other day my girlfriend was feeling overwhelmed with her exam revision in which she started crying, this then triggered her mum to start crying. Meanwhile I'm sitting there trying to logically explain how everything will be fine, how's she's done adequate revision and is contemplating worst case scenarios and it's quite normal to experience before going into an exam. But nope, ENTJ approach was not very effective... I was told I was insensitive and didn't care because I wasn't crying with them.

Yes. The Fe dominants tend to feel misunderstood and disrespected when they are not emotionally met. It seems to me that they feel personally attacked and will attack your character for it. I emphasized with the fixer-mentality of Te-dom, like 'the nail' video.

 

Oh my, makes me smile every time.

My upbringing was in a Fe dominant setting. ESFJ dominant mom, ISTP dad.

I remember this when the ESFJ wanted to lose weight:

- ESFJ: I want to lose weight...
- ENTJ: You could stop buying those cookies and sweets every week, that increases temptation that results in redundant calories.
- ESFJ: What? No, because when people come by, I -need- to have something to offer them. Otherwise I feel like a poorly behaving host.
- ENTJ: Well, do you not make an appointment for them to come by?
- ESFJ: No, not always.
- ENTJ: Still no problem. The supermarket is across the street. You buy cookies according to the amount of visitors if they happen to come by surprise.
- ESFJ: *aggrevated* Stop telling me what to do.

1 year later, she notices me losing weight due to self control on the cookies and sweets. She stops buying cookies, she stops eating them, she loses weight.

Nope.. it is not about the nail.

I came to the conclusion to just leave the nail in, trying to pull it out will only backfire. Instead, make them self conscious, give them a mirror. Or leave them be.

 

[Grandeur]

@Mr.Adrian

Classic. I feel like I'm on a reality TV show at times where I'm deliberately put into this situation made to test my patience. Can definitely relate to your conversation with your mother, I'm constantly having similar conversations with my GFs mum.

ESFJ "Not happy with my weight"
ENTJ "Stop eating so many carbohydrates"
ESFJ "I don't" *continues eating a loaf of bread* "Eating in moderation is okay"
ENTJ "Yes if you understand and abide by the concept of moderation"

 

[MikeLloyd]

 

thank you so much

 

[Mr.Adrian]

thank you so much

 

 

 

Seriously, you are welcome.

 

[masamune1]

Hitler was an INFJ, supposedly.

The Hitler of myth ("Hitler Myth" being a term coined by historian Ian Kershaw, to describe how people saw Hitler and were encouraged to see him by propaganda) was an INFJ, and was typed as such (or at least as a Ni-Dom) by Jung himself. This is the Hitler who was on a mission or a crusade to exterminate the Jews and built a great Germanic utopia that would dominate the Earth etc.

The Hitler of reality was (in my opinion, at least) an unhealthy ENxJ. I say "E" because he was very extraverted in his youth and after he became leader of the Nazi's; its the time in-between he came across or acted as an Introvert, due to a variety of bad childhood experiences. His principle motivation can be summed up as "be rich and famous and important, or die trying". He was no more prejudiced against the Jews than he was anyone else (which is to say, he was prejudiced, but not especially so) until he joined what would become the Nazi party, at which point he was playing to an audience (I'd put him in the "believing your own lies" anti-Semite camp). His mismanagement of the economy (he basically spent all of Germany's money on public works and building up the armed forces, while giving the largest businesses in Germany a state-enforced monopoly so competition was crippled) is what led Germany to start swallowing up her neighbours, though Poland and Germany was because he started getting drunk on success and high on amphetamines. The Holocaust was a result of Nazi Germany taking over a country (Poland) that had millions of Jews and the Nazi government not knowing what to do with them- the "Final Solution to the Jewish Problem" of course being to kill them.

Probably going into too much detail here but the basic point is that, even if Hitler is an INFJ, its a coincidence, because he's been typed on a myth rather than the reality. I'm not saying this because I want to pass Hitler off of INFJ hands (I actually think Goebbels might have been an INFJ, and there were certainly other INFJ Nazi's and extremists and probably murderous dictators too); I'm saying this because I read a dozen or so books on Nazi Germany long before I got into MBTI. Also there is a trend noticed by historians of blaming everything on Hitler- ie. the "just following orders" defence, which plays up how Hitler was responsible for everything and plays down how those beneath and around him often acted on their own.

Obviously, regardless of his type, he's a pretty poor representative of what said type is like.

 

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Yes. The Fe dominants tend to feel misunderstood and disrespected when they are not emotionally met. It seems to me that they feel personally attacked and will attack your character for it. I emphasized with the fixer-mentality of Te-dom, like 'the nail' video.

 

Oh my, makes me smile every time.

My upbringing was in a Fe dominant setting. ESFJ dominant mom, ISTP dad.

I remember this when the ESFJ wanted to lose weight:

- ESFJ: I want to lose weight...
- ENTJ: You could stop buying those cookies and sweets every week, that increases temptation that results in redundant calories.
- ESFJ: What? No, because when people come by, I -need- to have something to offer them. Otherwise I feel like a poorly behaving host.
- ENTJ: Well, do you not make an appointment for them to come by?
- ESFJ: No, not always.
- ENTJ: Still no problem. The supermarket is across the street. You buy cookies according to the amount of visitors if they happen to come by surprise.
- ESFJ: *aggrevated* Stop telling me what to do.

1 year later, she notices me losing weight due to self control on the cookies and sweets. She stops buying cookies, she stops eating them, she loses weight.

Nope.. it is not about the nail.

I came to the conclusion to just leave the nail in, trying to pull it out will only backfire. Instead, make them self conscious, give them a mirror. Or leave them be.

Despite being the ENTJ's shadow/mirror type, I can actually kind of relate to the "fixer" mentality. Discussing and venting is only really tolerated as long as it's providing insight and information to potentially solve the problem. Hell, even when I complain and vent (which I do a bit too much) I'm trying, on some level, to get a better grip on what's going on and look for an answer. Of course, I'm also terrible at taking my own advice and getting stuck in habits and loops, but that's beside the point.


Also, that cookie thing....f-ing memories...

 

[violetpretty]

The story of me and my mother! Even though I am impervious to guilt manipulation, she tries it all the time.

 

[marzipan01]

I'm coming upon this a little late, but as an ESFJ I certainly have experienced the difficulty.

I find ENTJcan be very confusing.. they chivalrously court you until you're theirs, and then, the compliments stop, and the time commitment drops dramatically. Its a weird thing to adjust to, because as an ESFJ, i will give the same compliment to someone as many times as they seem to need/want to hear it, and my time management is the opposite of the entj- cant stay focused on work because im thinking about relationship or wanting to see someone; whereas ENTJ seems like they cant focus on their partner because work is on their mind.

I think it is possible to get along but I think it requires someone to bend a little, and thats largely going to be the ESFJ and not the ENTJ. In some perhaps perverse way, because I feel so successful (my ESFJ form of success) if I have made someone happy/have someone enjoy my company, its an honor to be able to get close to the ENTJ.

...

Have to see though.. very early on. The biggest long term problems I see are 1) work/life balance for entj. Yeah I do appreciate when they're honest theyd rather be working, but at some point the ENTJ has to realize they cant go weeks just silently committed to someone, without spending any time with them to indicate it. 2) not wanting to live a stereotypical life from my end. as a woman whose mother was the leader of the household and who wants her eventual children to not feel constrained by gender, being the dutiful ESFJ to a busy ENTJ could make me feel like I am presenting a poor image to them. finally, and perhaps the key and where i think things ultimately may falter between ESFJ and ENTJ, i can live without affirmation and expressions of interest, but im not sure I can live without [eventually] having someone bare their emotions to me.not often, maybe even like, once a year. but the shell must crack. this I am being patient for. I only hope it comes with time.

This was great and I want to thank you for sharing it!

I dated an ENTJ for years and I never got a compliment either but he was a lot of fun: road trips and misadventures galore.
Having dated an ExFJ and an ENTJ I have to say the ENTJ was fun but not passionate (save for our heated debates and arguments which I think we both loved). Whereas, dating the ExFJ was passionate and tumultuous.

I think it's important to keep in mind no type is better than any other type and ENTJs and ESFJs are considered super ego relations. Meaning that the ENTJ secretly aspires to be more like the ESFJ and vice versa.

In my friend group, there are no SF's to speak of. We are a band of intuitive types. There was one ENFJ in the group who baked bread and threw parties. Eventually he got so busy I had to throw a party for the group. It was a lot of work to consider everything and organize everything and everyone. I admire what ESFJs do if they feel pressure to be like that all the time or maybe that is just who they are? Either way, kudos!

I think this sort of gets mixed up, too. Women (especially ENTJ women) may feel pressure to be more like this and don't have time as they are thinking about work and various projects but that doesn't mean by definition they have to be. I definitely turn into a feeling type in the beginning of a relationship and when I feel my partner turning away and then I go back to my natural self. I think this is the source of what you are talking about when you say the compliments end. Between my ExFJ partner and I we would have bouts of me saying very romantic things and things getting very passionate and then I would go back to work and he would freak out that I wasn't paying him enough attention. I started to feel guilty for working on anything that wasn't the relationship and then frustrated with him.

I think it is better if romantically, I date someone who is more secure in who they are so I can work and not talk to them for a couple of days without them freaking out. When I am focused on something I am really focused and being focused on a relationship really doesn't generate any revenue or bring me closer to my goals which makes me depressed as heck. I need to be making progress or I feel like killing myself. And he needed to feel loved and like the center of someone's life to be happy so we both wanted to kill ourselves essentially. Now that I think about it, we really brought out the worst in each other. Although, that being said, I don't think I will ever find a relationship where I feel so loved as I did with my ExFJ.

And maybe the ESFJs who are so good at caring about other people should find someone who can make them feel loved and paid attention to at all times. I have this ESFJ friend who married an INTP engineer and they do wonderfully together. She dotes on him all the live long day and he eats it up.