Personality Cafe banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi! Let me tell you the story of these two and how their problems began:
She is a 7w8 (ENTP) girl and she is very confident, outgoing and eccentric.
He is a 5w4 (INFJ) guy and he is a little insecure, shy and tame.
They both are very intelligent, non-conformists, eloqent and creative. They are both young, and very attractive. They fell in love with each other almost in an instanttt. The chemistry between them is always BURNING. Even the blind can see that. They are both fascinated with each other and find each other very inspiring.

However, problems started once the 5w4 guy realised that "he was not the only one". The 7w8 girl is younger than him and she just doesn't want to settle down. She is seeing other people and the thought of never having something new and excieting was terrifying to herr. She thinks it is perfectly fair because she let him know from the very beginning that she didn't want a relationship. She thinks it is perfectly fair because she isn't cheating on him. They are not a couple. Her deffinitions of "love" are not on a physical level. She loves him like she always did and she was never in love with any of those other guys she was seeing. She dosn't think that the fact she is sleeping with other people is betraying the 5w4 guy; what she thinks a betrayal would be is if she fell in love with other people (and she didn't) and if she didn't let the 5w4 guy KNOW what she was doing.

The 5w4 guy is devastated. He felt betrayed. It means SO MUCH to him that she says she was never in love with anybody else, but, still... He is demisexual. She was his first EVERYTHING. And she is his everything. Yes. It is true: she didn't hide from him that she was seeing others. She never lied to him. But just the fact that he was "SHARING" her was unbearable for him. He has so much to offer to her. He is 100% dedicated to her. Anyway, he never tells her to stop doing what she is doing because he doesn't want to control her. He wants her to be happy, but her being happy automatically destroys him.

The bottom line is: SHE LOVES HIM, HE DOESN'T BELIEVE in that.
It is in her nature as a 7w8 to do that, and it is in his nature as a 5w4 to worry when that happens.

How can she let him know how much he means to her and is there a way that a 5w4 can understand that?
Please, write everything you know about this combination and how they can work it out.

Thank you so much!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
895 Posts
Have you tried talking to him about it? It sounds like you two want totally different things and have two different definitions of love at this point, and somebody has to give if it's going to work out. If neither person is willing to change either their outlook or behavior to at least meet the other person halfway, how is there really love present?

My advice to talk to him and figure it out together stands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you @tenefix for your advice.I will talk to him. But the thing is I had had some bad experiences in the past with jealous boyfriends that were controlling me and therefore I don't want a relationship. I think he should be the one to change because he doesn't care about the "physical" side of it that much anyway. He is affraid that I won't LOVE him anymore and I will assure him that I do. If he loves me, he'll understand.
Cute pic, BTW. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Ha ha - ENTP woman with a 7w8 too :)

Obviously things aren't in a good place, and they really can't be fixed here without some flexibility from the ENTP. I was in a "relationship" with a man for years where he traveled a lot for work and we couldn't be together all of the time. And I wasn't really in the mood to settle down at that point. So we had an open relationship of sorts. I loved him he loved me, we both understood that and didn't question it. But at the same time well doing what we needed to to be together at the time wasn't something either of us wanted we had very different personal roads we were traveling at the time and they weren't the same road, and we didn't want to have each other stop living their life for them sort of thing. We were fine in knowing that when we were ready for that sort of commitment, well if we still felt the same we would. If we happened to meet someone else or grow apart or became unsatisfied with the arrangement well that would be fine we wanted the best for each other, we were both completely comfortable and desired to not own the other. And that even came down to not wanting to possess each other sexually.

Now if he was unhappy I could not have decided to be committed to him, it would have made me miserable at that point in my life eventually. And if he had a problem well I would have also had to break off the romance aspect of our relationship because I don't like being responsible for hurting someone. And I don't think someone can come around to an attitude of not wanting to own someone, it has to be there as a a comfortability they can have from the start IMO. A person can try to be OK with it for awhile, but it is just going to rear its ugly head constantly. And I don't think someone who receives love in a way of owning someone else can really be changed. There is no way to show him because he is hard wired in certain ways to receive/feel loved in certain ways, and it seems being exclusive sexually is one of those ways. Not an uncommon one either.

The bottom line is she loves him/he doesn't believe it. The only way you can make him believe it is showing it in the way he needs to be shown, which it doesn't sound like you can. If you can't/don't want to do what it takes to make him believe it . . . well then this needs to stop IMO. If someone does love someone, well sometimes they need to step in and stop the person from hurting themselves, and the INFJ is hurting themselves in this scenario IMO. Or on the other hand, if the thought of not having the INFJ in your life is unthinkable and these are the terms, well maybe one is willing to compromise and go out of their comfort zone. Though for the ENTP, there is usually a decent amount of logic behind one's comfortability in any given situation, so going out of one's comfort zone can be going against what we think is right in even a nonemotional sort of way. But the ENTP is certainly capable of coming around if they build a new framework of how to view the situation IMO, so it is possible.

But I see a change needs to be made here and it isn't going to be fixed in finding a way to show him you love him to make him believe it outside of what he has obviously shown he needs. And I hate to say it it is up to the ENTP to take action here, cut romantic ties or go all in. Because a person who feels the way the INFJ does in this situation is NOT going to be able to come around and be the person the ENTP wants them to be. And in the meantime someone is getting hurt, and though that is no one's fault per say, well the hurt is real and something needs to be done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
As an INFJ 5w4 guy I understand this entirely. He wants to commit because finding someone that's so perfect is extremely hard. I'm looking for an ENTP or ISTP girl I can naturally get along with and the moment I find one, I'll probably go balls deep into it...
As for what's going on, they happened to meet during the wrong phase in their lives. At least, during her wrong phase. She should experiment and then realize that she'll be happy with this guy, but at the same time she won't be fulfilled unless she writes off the other possibilities. The INFJ dude should realize this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
Ha ha - ENTP woman with a 7w8 too :)

Obviously things aren't in a good place, and they really can't be fixed here without some flexibility from the ENTP. I was in a "relationship" with a man for years where he traveled a lot for work and we couldn't be together all of the time. And I wasn't really in the mood to settle down at that point. So we had an open relationship of sorts. I loved him he loved me, we both understood that and didn't question it. But at the same time well doing what we needed to to be together at the time wasn't something either of us wanted we had very different personal roads we were traveling at the time and they weren't the same road, and we didn't want to have each other stop living their life for them sort of thing. We were fine in knowing that when we were ready for that sort of commitment, well if we still felt the same we would. If we happened to meet someone else or grow apart or became unsatisfied with the arrangement well that would be fine we wanted the best for each other, we were both completely comfortable and desired to not own the other. And that even came down to not wanting to possess each other sexually.

Now if he was unhappy I could not have decided to be committed to him, it would have made me miserable at that point in my life eventually. And if he had a problem well I would have also had to break off the romance aspect of our relationship because I don't like being responsible for hurting someone. And I don't think someone can come around to an attitude of not wanting to own someone, it has to be there as a a comfortability they can have from the start IMO. A person can try to be OK with it for awhile, but it is just going to rear its ugly head constantly. And I don't think someone who receives love in a way of owning someone else can really be changed. There is no way to show him because he is hard wired in certain ways to receive/feel loved in certain ways, and it seems being exclusive sexually is one of those ways. Not an uncommon one either.

The bottom line is she loves him/he doesn't believe it. The only way you can make him believe it is showing it in the way he needs to be shown, which it doesn't sound like you can. If you can't/don't want to do what it takes to make him believe it . . . well then this needs to stop IMO. If someone does love someone, well sometimes they need to step in and stop the person from hurting themselves, and the INFJ is hurting themselves in this scenario IMO. Or on the other hand, if the thought of not having the INFJ in your life is unthinkable and these are the terms, well maybe one is willing to compromise and go out of their comfort zone. Though for the ENTP, there is usually a decent amount of logic behind one's comfortability in any given situation, so going out of one's comfort zone can be going against what we think is right in even a nonemotional sort of way. But the ENTP is certainly capable of coming around if they build a new framework of how to view the situation IMO, so it is possible.

But I see a change needs to be made here and it isn't going to be fixed in finding a way to show him you love him to make him believe it outside of what he has obviously shown he needs. And I hate to say it it is up to the ENTP to take action here, cut romantic ties or go all in. Because a person who feels the way the INFJ does in this situation is NOT going to be able to come around and be the person the ENTP wants them to be. And in the meantime someone is getting hurt, and though that is no one's fault per say, well the hurt is real and something needs to be done.
I find it adorable that while as an INFJ 5w4 dude I said that the guy needs to see the girl's side of the problem with his eyes more open, you say as an ENTP 7w8 that the girl should do the same
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
If I was the guy, id drop this relationship. It's toxic for him. And possibly for the ENTP as well. I've always said: It doesn't matter how much you "love" someone, if you are not willing to give your partner what they NEED in a relationship, then it will inevitably come to a stop. A bad stop where people are left really hurt. It boggles my mind that the ENTP is one of the prefered types for INFJ because of tue clash in feeling towards commitment to one person. INFJ's seem to be fine with staying the same in a relationship, whereas the ENTP seems to always need change. That's a bad combination in my own opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: avidity

·
SAY MY NAME
INTJ
Joined
·
8,475 Posts
Speaking as a 5w4 INFJ male, it's fucking over, forget about it and go home. The one thing which cannot be tolerated is fucking around, with or without permission, it instantly reduces the status to 'casual', and 5w4s don't give a fuck about casual. Casual is something we stick our dick in last night and won't ever see again in our lives. There's no middle ground, no 'open relationship'. Either you're balls deep into a relationship and you're the only person in the world who matters; or you're casual in that specific sense and he doesn't give a fuck about you once the nut is bust.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
@Saika - That is funny isn't it - the INFJ and the ENTP looking at how they can adapt to fix things and not making it solely the other person's problem so to speak. I think maybe both our personality types try to take responsibility for the things WE can change maybe? I mean if there is some way I can adapt in a situation to get it to the point I want, I am just more proactive I guess in taking that initiative and not putting it all on another person, I do have control on my side of things. And I mean if you really do care about someone you kind of have to take their feelings into account and not make them "wrong" IMO as well.

Though I will say as to your comments here - I think it needs to be said (though I am not sure it applies here for sure) but ENTPs are often very future focused in making commitments. So it may not just be a desire for freedom or being restricted sort of thing or wanting to sow wild oats lol, it is usually largely they can't envision a future they want to embark on right now with this person. And that doesn't mean that they see a negative future they are refusing, but that they can't grasp what that commitment would be/entail/mean yet in a futuristic sense. Making a commitment in a romantic relationship often to an ENTP is embarking on a certain road to a future they have analyzed every which way and found desirable. But if that future can't be envisioned clearly for whatever reasons, it is very hard to go down that road. They can't see shutting down all of these other possibilities of roads in life without actually choosing a specific road over the others at this point in time if that makes sense, and if there is no clear choice, the ENTP will probably want to stay in the gray area until one becomes apparent. ENTPs aren't likely to go blindly into the unknown completely IMO even in romance, they have some idea of where they are headed as to making commitments.

So there can be issues with this at certain times with certain people, I agree like you said timing can be huge here. It is as much to do with where the ENTP is currently at with themselves and not solely about their level of feeling for another person, which can be confusing to some but to an ENTP it makes sense to us lol. This often has nothing to do with "love" or feelings sort of thing. It is just that the ENTPs logical side and future ideas have to fit nicely with the romantic feelings, the two have to kind of be in harmony for a commitment to be made, and if the ENTP is unsure of their solo/couple future at the moment it is very hard to envision the couple future and having the sense that things fit together sort of thing and the commitment "feels right." We need some logic with our "feels" lol, but when we do make commitments they are usually very strong because they aren't just based on "feels" so there is a plus side to this in some ways. When you have us you can know that this wasn't solely an emotional choice (which can be fleeting) but a result of rigorous mental examination as well and a REAL commitment to a future and not just a momentary decision that felt right in the now. We often have thought through so many "what ifs" of down the line issues and resolved issues we could see in the relationship in the future before they even have or if ever will come up lol.

So I know from experience the hesitancy to want a committed relationship with someone you actually love, well to me it wasn't as much about freedom or even sexual desire for others or anything like that at it's heart (though of course ENTPs generally do need a certain amount of freedom holding on to us too tightly can drive us away sometimes) but that I wasn't ready at the point to choose a distinct path for my future, there weren't clear choices at the time. And committing to me meant ruling out a lot of paths I wasn't sure I wanted to rule out, and choosing one that at the time was kind of an unknown to me, and at the time my life and his life were so in flux that it was basically let's wait and see if at some point we can see fit to merge these paths into a shared future sort of thing that to me a committed relationship entails. And until I could reach that point I couldn't fully enter in to all out commitment. I mean ENTPs with some life experience often aren't hopeless romantics, love is only part of the equation for a stable future in our minds and there is a lot of logic behind our commitments. Even if sometimes they may appear to be impetuous - they really aren't and have been highly thought through to a degree. Making commitments when the logic doesn't add up in some sort of desirable way, well just ain't our style often. This may not apply to all ENTPs or even the OP, but this is how I have experienced this sort of dilemma I guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
@briebo1 You know, I love the way you express yourself. For all the posts that make me cringe on PerC, posts like yours are a breath of fresh air.

I think that the way you consider the other person so much but also all the possible paths you can take makes perfect sense for an ENTP, but all the same I feel I do the same as an INFJ through an interestingly parallel process with a different purpose.

I can't speak for all INFJs and I even see many mistyped ones around here, so there's that. Still, for us, love is something that has to coincide with our permanent search for identity and enlightenment. When we decide someone interests us, it tends to be just to learn something from our interaction with the person and then move on. Even then, that is not what we want. Not even close.
I see true love as something to strive for, that just never fucking happens. I wonder exactly why, or if I haven't met the right one yet, but even then, I just lose interest in people after a few months, because I figure them out and they disappoint me.

What I would compare between ENTPs and INFJs when it comes to love, is that we both need to reason out a whole way that it would work or else it isn't something we want. Instead of seeing through all possibilities and determining that committing doesn't cross out the other possibilities we want, I try to think about the person and then surmise whether or not she would have what I need in order to really feel fulfilled in a relationship. If I can't talk about very deep things and discuss my Ni musings, I end up writing the person off as unintelligent even though I know that's not the case.

I'm aware this all comes off as very different from what the INFJ in the OP's story seems to feel like. I was balls deep into love with a girl when I first connected with someone. I was like that. I just wanted to commit and say "Fuck everything, I don't need anyone else".
Now, I can give you the perspective of what I think that INFJ (if he is one truly) will think of relationships as a whole after being through a few real things with people.

Honestly the way you ENTPs think fascinates me. It's a mixture of reasoning out your random musings but still considering people in the mix, and it's so similar to the way INFJs work that it's entertaining to read about. I hope you don't see that as arrogant or me looking down on others. It's not the case at all. I know very well that I come off as such because I am such with most people, unfortunately. When it comes to a few certain types, I either see them as peers or even admire them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
infj should obvious break up and move on already in order to not get destroyed himself. Also I say that if this 'entp' is destroying this person by doing these actions then perhaps she do not love this infj enough to make it work. This aint how relationships should work. imo
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Ah thanks @Saika - back at ya :)

You know what is interesting, is that in my first love (which went from 16-19), well I was in many ways on a search for identity and enlightenment lol. I fell in love, threw myself wholly into it, it was a tangerine psychedelic dream figuratively (and at times literally lol) of the meaning of life in a lot of ways. I did commit and say fuck everyone else lol - even my own family he became my closest family. I mean my parents moved at the end of my Senior year of high school - I started living with my BF. There was no one and nothing of more importance. And we were on a permanent high on each other as to the actualizing of existing on a higher plane sort of thing.

What I took from that initial foray of deep connection and attachment to another human being, well I learned what does love got do with it. Our break-up had nothing to do with a lack of love (I have never had a break up that did), and that when I came out of it I felt like I had lost my identity. I didn't even know who I was it seemed outside of the identity I had pursued in us.

I think often "love" is in part finding identity in another person, it is what brings in these strong attachments at some level in us, it can be the source behind the feel goods of connection to a degree. But having tried that on for size to the extreme, I realized that was not for me. I found a different meaning of life per say in being a single adult for the first time, kind of starting from scratch in some ways, and I found that I could see the higher plane in life could also be experienced for me in pursuing my identity outside of a love.

It is kind of weird, I felt like I lost something of my capacity to "love" in that relationship, but I also gained something as well as to "love." And this was kind of from the logical exploration of what happened in that relationship after the fact. I couldn't rationalize losing my individual identity in a couple to the same extent again - even though in so doing that it brought me to these levels of "love" that were mythical in feeling really, there was a tradeoff to that that I wasn't willing to make again I guess. And yeah ideas that even the greatest of love may not find a way to last even when the love doesn't fade, well that made me really cautious in what avenues I would choose to go down as to love in the future.

So it is weird, I kind of sit on this fence of yeah "love is something that has to coincide with our permanent search for identity and enlightenment" - I get that, and I also see how that sort of love does enlighten and elevates a human being to new heights. But then for myself I also see that as naive now, though I still can identify with it, I just see that it comes with pros and cons and it was an avenue that though highly enjoyable while it lasted, I didn't want a repeat of in my next relationship. For me what I am seeking in love and connection is just so constantly changing, or growing really into new realms via experience and examination. I never seem to find myself chasing the thing I had before or chasing some sort of ideal not ever being fully realized but looking for something new that is the sum total of what I have gleaned from my experiences as to what I want to find/explore next sort of thing. I may not know exactly what that is, but I usually have some contours sketched out to a degree. But it seems my search for love is constantly evolving, I discard/lose things along the way and gain new ones, and they kind of have to go through the filter of logic to see what gets left behind and what continues in ideas of "love" to me.

I feel like I am at the same time a romantic in some ways . . . and a realist. I connect to what you are saying as to love . . and at the same time I connect to it as a part of me that is no longer there anymore and not in either a bad or good way really things just are what they are right now, and hey they will most likely change further lol. And to what extent in either direction is always in flux to some degree, romanticism or realism, identity in myself or in more than myself, the meaning of life as to the solo journey and the divine and the connections with others, so many spectrums! But I guess "love" for me is often finding a home I guess in particular people along the way that seems to fit with where I am at and what direction I am currently growing in and the trajectory I am currently on, though there is an idealism as to "love" there isn't really a fixed one if that makes sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
@briebo1 Well, the way I see it, it sure seems as if the perfect partner for someone like you would be someone that would be willing to go through the same emotional and ideological changes and explore life with you, adapting to your rhythm and letting you adapt to his rhythm (assuming you are hetero) which reminds me of what I'm looking for as well. Simply put, someone that can keep up with the paradigm shifts.

I understand everything you're saying (I think). What you mean to say is that you are constantly changing, constantly evolving, whether you choose to aim high or aim low. Regardless of how you change, you still change, and your views grow and adapt to your perception of what happened. In a way, I am the exact same. I'm always reevaluating how life works, what everything means and how I can leave something as a teaching to the world, from my own expeditions into my own mind. Each time it happens, it's because some life-changing event went down for me and I need to rebuild my inner model of the world.
If you feel like reading quite a bit, here's a post of myself going through introspection and how I see it, and I went a bit into detail on how that relationship I had that altered my perception really affected me http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/754066-trying-figure-myself-out-am-i-infj.html
I recommend that you try not to pay attention to some of the other posters, if you plan on reading this. I feel like some of my neurons died when reading that I'm a Te dom.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top