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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Before I begin I'd like to apologize for any spelling and grammar mistakes. English isn't my first language.

ENTP VS INTP arguing

INTP; the INTPs first function is Ti. This functions main characteristic is logical analysis. In debate the INTP can use this to analyze its own argument before he speaks and he can use this to analyze his opponents arguments on flaws. These applications of Ti makes sure an INTP almost NEVER gives a flawed argument and it gives the INTP the opportunity to point out a lot of flaws in its opponents argument.

ENTP; the ENTPs first function is Ne. This enables the ENTP to come up with a lot of new ideas, alternatives and other ways of doing things very fast. In debate the ENTP can use this to come up with a LOT of different arguments and to come up with a good reply very fast. These applications of Ne makes sure the ENTP can make a very strong position to support its opinion. It also means that the ENTP almost never gets caught off guard.

INTP; the INTPs second function is Ne. He uses this function to come up with arguments just like the ENTP, but because his Ne is less dominant than that of the ENTP he will generate less arguments. However, his Ti is enough developed to analyze every idea the INTP generates within a certain amount of time. This way almost all of the INTPs arguments are valid and logically correct.

ENTP; the ENTPs second function is Ti. He uses this to analyze his own arguments just like the INTP, but because his Ti is less developed he isn't able to analyze all of his Ne-generated-arguments within the time given in a debate or discussion. However, his Ne is enough developed to generate a lot arguments, so even after subtracting his flawed arguments the ENTP still has a good load of valid arguments.

To use a metaphor:
The INTP builds a building that's very solid and strong. The ENTP builds a building that's way taller than that of the INTP and much more impressive, but it's not as solid, it's easier to take down. The ENTP is more convincing than the INTP. However the INTPs argument is much safer and not likely to be corrected.


So what should INTPs and ENTPs do when arguing with the other.

They can do two things, try to win by abusing their dominant function or by taking their time to make good use of his second function. The ENTPs can either try to drown the INTP in arguments or he can disarm the INTPs flaw-detector by taking his time with his Ti and making sure they don't give flawed arguments. The INTPs should either power-analyze the ENTPs arguments and try shooting them down one by one or he can take his time with his Ne to come up with more arguments.

In the scenario that an INTP and an ENTP are debating with each other and try to overpower the other with their dominant function, the ENTP will come up with a lot of arguments very fast. The INTP's first reaction is to point out all the flaws in the ENTPs argument with his Ti. Only if he has pointed out all the flaws will the INTP give his own arguments. Sometimes however the INTP doesn't get the chance to do that because of the huge load of arguments from the ENTP. If he does get the time he will most likely give his Ti-analyzed arguments. These arguments are most likely logically correct. Conclusion, The ENTP will win if the INTP can't keep up with his Ne generated arguments. This happens when the INTPs Ti isn't developed enough to analyze the Ne-arguments of the ENTP. However, if the INTP's Ti can keep up with the ENTPs Ne he will after (partially) undermining the ENTPs arguments give his own Ti analyzed arguments and thus winning the discussion. So, basically the one with the most developed dominant function will win.

So what do you think could happen, the above or something else? And why will that happen? What if they use their third function? should they use their third function? What other factors may influence the argument?

Don't let my questions limit your answers.
 

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Of course, general intelligence of the each opponent is a large factor. It also depends on which side of the argument each person is on. Depending on the issue, one side may have more evidence to back it up than the other. I do like your analysis though. Nice analogy as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you for the link, it's very interesting and in a way very similar to this thread.

But, what I was looking for were more like scenario's of a discussion between an INTP and an ENTP. Of course there is no way you could have known that so I still appreciate both your answers:happy:
 

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Well, my highschool friends where an ENTJ, an ISTP and an ENTP. We debated A LOT.

Here are just a couple of observations: ENTJs are less likely to make logical errors than ENTPs, but will often leave out a factor because they haven't considered it so they both are often wrong. ENTPs think a great deal more about things which are usually debated than the ENTJ, generally giving them the advantage. ENTPs are more emotional, making them look silly to other Ts.

ISTPs have strong logic but weak abstraction, that results in them having imprecise or flat-out wrong premises. ENTPs have a good abstraction power, but they are imprecise in logic, drawing a wrong conclusion out of their premises if they get complicated.

ENTP and the ENTJ hated debating me because I would be "nitpicking too much" and making "irrelevant objections". It was funny, because every time an ISTP would step in and say - "He does make a good point", or "He is correct." I guess ENTJs and ENTPs cannot see a logical connection or the significance of a factor to a whole structure nearly as good as a dominant Ti user.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you for this reply. It's nice to see that your observations are somewhat similar to my analysis. You also took ISTPs and ENTJs into consideration and while I think you are right I also think that it would be very hard and time consuming to make an analysis on debating between ENTPs, INTPs, ISTPs and ENTJs.
 

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Me and my girfriend (INTP + ENTP) argue all the time, and it always consists of her wanting to prove a point/idea/opinion that didn't need proving, or is too personal to her so it's all one-sided anyway.

I once read in the ENTP general description that an ENTP will sometimes put forward a point purely for the sake of argument, to keep the discussion going. Well, my girlfriend does this all the time, and I can always tell when she's doing it. It makes arguing really easy because I then realise that I can do the same thing, and to be honest us INTPs are only really capable of talking in absolute truths, which basically means the argument will end in one of two ways:

I keep pointing out extra truths, while she just throws in whatever she can think of (albeit quite logical and worth mentioning), but clearly isn't arguing anymore and is actually just adding bits for the sake of it (kinda cute actually - comes across like a pondering puppy), so I keep adding my godlike truths until she caves in, gets all playful and all hostility is gone. Often the final line in an argument like this will be along the lines of her saying, "weeeell... it's true/I suppose/maybe/etc, etc,", in acceptance of my last point. I've won.

Or,

She points out the thing I was wrong about, I immediately realise she's correct, so I don't have a single comeback, admit defeat, she stays mad for ages. Gentle nudging cheers her up again, but it takes longer. - She's won.


Basically it depends on the actual truth behind an argument. INTPs live for truth, and you can't argue with truth! There seems to be a bit of emotional blur for ENTPs though. Probably something to do with them being perfectionists. If something isn't right for them, they'll unintentionally release a bunch of emotion, and stand by a point just because they hold it close to their own possibly skewed emotional ideal. e.g. My gf 100% fucking HATES it if I leave my bag slightly unzipped when I'm walking in public (WTF?!), just because it's her very strong personal belief that it's much safer to keep your bag totally closed at all times. Of course, she's absolutely correct, but my life has been quite fine so far, for 24 years, doing things my own way, without considering the how fully zipped my bag is... So yeah, that's an example of how ENTPs stand fiercely close to certain values, which can cause massive brick walls in arguing...
 

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These applications of Ti makes sure an INTP almost NEVER gives a flawed argument and it gives the INTP the opportunity to point out a lot of flaws in its opponents argument.
>,> What? yeah, except when they're conveying incorrect information, which is pretty much the pitfall of any argument. Sort of reminiscent of your post.

General intelligence and diligence to learn a topic is most likely a much better indicator of the winner of a debate than their function. No matter who you are, you're going to have your arguments and as much information on the subject prepared prior to the debate.

If functions convey anything, it's one's willingness to engage on topics that they might not be certain about.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@SA1988

I really like your observations, but parts of your discription of an ENTP(your girlfriend) doesn't sound familiar to me. Is there an ENTP who can verify SA1988's characteristics of an ENTP?

I also read that she gets mad when she wins an argument. Why is this? Also, what specific argument did you think of when you wrote your post?

I apologize for my many questions. I would appreciate it if you would answer them anyway(or someone else who thinks he can answer these questions).
 

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@SA1988

I really like your observations, but parts of your discription of an ENTP(your girlfriend) doesn't sound familiar to me. Is there an ENTP who can verify SA1988's characteristics of an ENTP?

I also read that she gets mad when she wins an argument. Why is this? Also, what specific argument did you think of when you wrote your post?

I apologize for my many questions. I would appreciate it if you would answer them anyway(or someone else who thinks he can answer these questions).
Yeah, if she's won the argument then it means her bad feelings were justified, so she maintains the bad feelings.

By the way, I'm talking about emotional arguments here, mostly. Not just chit chat banter debating types of arguments. Sure, ENTPs and INTPs despise emotion, but we're human and stuff can piss us off. She gets pissed off more though... a lot more, haha. And it's always about things that I don't give a shit about. In fact it's about stuff nobody would give a shit about.

Usually the stuff she's pissed off about is not emotional at all. It's more that she has a perfect vision of how she thinks something should be, so if it's not exactly like that, she'll point it out in a, ""hat the hell?! Why aren't you doing it like this? My way is the best way because that's the way I do it!", kind of way.

I think it's hard to describe it properly because I reckon the ENTP as a partner is different to the ENTP as a friend/person.

If I met my girlfriend as an everyday person-to-person interaction and we weren't boyfriend/girlfriend, I'd see her as totally cool, very quick, rapid with suggestions, able to argue any point but easily swayed if enough intelligence is put forward for another idea, erm, very easy to interact with, work with.

When we argue, it's more of a relationship style of arguing, so emotions come in and the model you're talking about may be a little different in that area. I can imagine if she argues/debates with anybody else, it would be in a learning format where she'll put forward a hell of a lot of points, but mould her opinion greatly over the course of the discussion, because for her the argument would never have been an argument, and more of a massive learning exercise.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know the argument was about her feelings.

The description of your situation isn't an answer to one of my previous questions(which you mentioned in the last paragraph). However, I found it very informative.

Thank you for all your answers. I'm satisfied with all the replies already posted, but feel free to add something if you think it's important.
 
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