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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
a friend INFJ is falling for an ENTP guy. they are hanging out for a couple of weeks now, and she finally had the courage to show her scars.
she says his reaction was pretty hurtful for her to grasp, because he stated "it was a stupid thing to do" and said that all people he had known before to have selfharming issues were unstable "lunatics".
she says he took it pretty lightly, as if it's no big deal but his comments really showed lack of empathy and some ignorance on the topic.
she really likes him so she's scared if this is going to change anything between them. we are now opening this topic to hear your opinions...


what are your general thoughts?
ever had a friend who had problems with it, or had had in the past?
how harsh do you judge people with difficult history that is seen on their body?
would it impact building possible future relationship?
 

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a friend INFJ is falling for an ENTP guy. they are hanging out for a couple of weeks now, and she finally had the courage to show her scars.
she says his reaction was pretty hurtful for her to grasp, because he stated "it was a stupid thing to do" and said that all people he had known before to have selfharming issues were unstable "lunatics".
she says he took it pretty lightly, as if it's no big deal but his comments really showed lack of empathy and some ignorance on the topic.
she really likes him so she's scared if this is going to change anything between them. we are now opening this topic to hear your opinions...


what are your general thoughts?
ever had a friend who had problems with it, or had had in the past?
how harsh do you judge people with difficult history that is seen on their body?
would it impact building possible future relationship?
I can understand the thought process that goes into self harm because I've struggled with it myself. I've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and I have been dealing with depression and mood swings for years now. But, as harsh as it sounds, self harm is just something people do to gain attention. I know it hurts people's sentiments to think about it but I believe it to be true. It was true in my case. I was telling people I was hurting but no one listened so I started hurting myself. I think your friend is very young? In my experience, people stop hurting themselves after a certain point of time unless they have really severe mental issues.

I don't judge people negatively when I realize they had/have been harming themselves because I've done it myself. Self harm is a desperate plea for attention. I'm not putting it down in an "oh you're so emo; get over yourself" kind of way. I'm saying I understand. My advice to someone harming themselves is to stop and look for other ways to ask for help. Self harm can also be addicting and can get worse with time. I used to have severe depression after I realized that I was forced into making a life decision that I hated. I genuinely believed there was no way out and I was trapped. Day in, day out I struggled with the desire to just sit in a corner of my room and cut myself, and after doing it for a while, I decided to confide in my partner. And to my absolute surprise, we were able to figure a way out. I know I've strayed from the topic a little but I figured your friend could use this advice. It's totally okay to ask for help.

As long as a person is harming themselves, they are not a healthy individual. They wouldn't be relationship material. The ENTP in question might have been too insensitive but his concerns are completely valid. I know this from personal experience. I think my partner has the patience of a saint because I have behaved in insane ways before. That's the thing with people with personality disorders. They're fine for the most part - just sometimes they act completely crazy. But both parties have to be aware of what's happening and learn ways to cope with it. It takes two mature individuals.

I would like to add that the ENTP saying "it was a stupid thing to do" really does show ignorance, because, as I said, there are moments where it seems like that's all you can do. I knew this ENTP guy from college. A few years ago, someone from our college ended up killing herself and he started saying similar things. This ticked me off, because I know what it's like to have suicidal thoughts and I said something along the lines of "can you stop disgracing the dead?" He didn't take it well at all but it shows what kind of a person he is. Some people are unwilling to change.

My thoughts: it is indeed possible for people with a ton of emotional baggage to be in functional relationships but, the other party has to be tolerant to a certain extent. It doesn't matter what the person's type is, if he's unwilling to empathize, then it's better to leave and find someone who will. Rarely do people change for the sake of others.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
But, as harsh as it sounds, self harm is just something people do to gain attention. (...)

Self harm is a desperate plea for attention. I'm not putting it down in an "oh you're so emo; get over yourself" kind of way. I'm saying I understand. My advice to someone harming themselves is to stop and look for other ways to ask for help.
well i'm sorry but this is very very wrong..
my friend is terrified of others' seeing her scars, haven't been on the pool or likewise activities for years now, undresses into short sleeves only when in front of very close people etc.
this factor may have been true for your case but don't project it to a general self-harming issue.


i guess your view in general, and of ENTPs as rational, logical individuals, is pretty simplistic and down-to-the-results (is it useful? no. does it contribute to solving a problem? no.).
but there are more aspects of the issue than this one. i'm just interested if you ENTPs are aware of possible depths and complexity of emotions, that you yourselves maybe cannot experience but some other types do, and this emotion is our reality just as the world outside.



warm thanks for sharing your story Blue Ribbon, your elaborated text is really really helpful :)
 

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well i'm sorry but this is very very wrong..
my friend is terrified of others' seeing her scars, haven't been on the pool or likewise activities for years now, undresses into short sleeves only when in front of very close people etc.
this factor may have been true for your case but don't project it to a general self-harming issue.
I read some articles online from psychology magazines and I agree you are right. I shouldn't have said that. For me, personally, I once came to find out that someone I know said this to my mother: she cuts for attention. When my mom told me, I rejected it at first, not believing my reasons were so shallow. But the more I thought of it, the more I realized maybe they were right. I'm sure your friend has her own reasons. Does she still harm herself?

I understand she's terrified of the scars. I'm more ashamed than terrified. I'm fine with exposing my scars though. But I might get a tattoo to cover them up. People do ask questions and I just usually make up some lie. Some people are sensible enough to not ask questions about it.


i guess your view in general, and of ENTPs as rational, logical individuals, is pretty simplistic and down-to-the-results (is it useful? no. does it contribute to solving a problem? no.).
What you've described is a more Te approach than Ti. Ti Ne works differently. For myself, when I discovered I have this problem, I started becoming interested in psychology. I decided to get to the roots and understand the heart of the problem. There is only one way to fix an issue and that is understanding it in it's entirety. "is it useful? No, then it doesn't interest me" is how Te works. Te is results oriented. I'm a Ti user. I like to delve deep into an issue and understand it completely, whether or not such deep understanding is required.

IMO Te is a lot more solution focused. Let's say that the parking sensor of your car is broken. A Te user might just decide to learn how to fix it while a Ti user goes in deeper and decides to learn how sensors work in general to gain more knowledge of the situation. Of course this is just way too general and the real differences are more nuanced. I'm not saying Ti is superior to Te. Te users have told me that Ti users can be annoying in that we tend to get lost in our pursuit of knowledge and end up having little to show for it. Producing tangible results is Te. Building systems of knowledge is Ti.

but there are more aspects of the issue than this one. i'm just interested if you ENTPs are aware of possible depths and complexity of emotions, that you yourselves maybe cannot experience but some other types do, and this emotion is our reality just as the world outside.
I know a lot of people like to think of NT types as cold and emotionally dead. Those who identify as NTs sometimes perpetuate this. Like take this thread for example:

http://personalitycafe.com/nts-temp...6178-nt-comfortable-emotion.html#post38916450

This is not an accurate representation at all. I think people who identify as NTs think they look "cool" or something else equally ridiculous when they say these things. More experienced NTs will tell you they feel deeply and value emotions as well. Also, if thinkers don't value emotion, wouldn't that imply that feelers don't value thoughts?

This is how I feel: People in general feel. This is true. Emotions are part of the human condition. "Feeling" in MBTI doesn't automatically translate into emotion. Fi and Fe are judgement functions. They deal with making judgments and not with experiencing emotions. I think that feelings arise as a result of a thought process. When you think of something, it makes you feel a certain way. I don't think emotions can exist in vacuum. There has to be something that causes me to feel a certain way. My life is dedicated to the quest to find the truth behind this universe. I use my Ti to analyze and understand the world. And emotions are key pieces of the puzzle for me. I may not use emotions to make decisions but I certainly use them to better understand myself and other people.

I may not cry with my friends. I may even not function as a good shoulder to cry on. But that doesn't mean that thinkers don't care. If someone I love is in pain, I can try to find the cause of their pain and try to understand it. I can try to fix the issue. In fact, if I care about the person I'm guaranteed to do so. Seeing those I love in pain hurts me too. Because that's not what I want.

If you sense no empathy from someone, it's because they don't care about you. It has nothing to do with MBTI. Let's say you like a guy, and he's an ENTJ. If he behaves apathetically to you and doesn't care about your emotional well being, it's because he doesn't care and not because he's an NT type. The same goes for your friend. If the ENTP isn't showing any desire to understand her, it's not because he's an ENTP and it would be wrong to assume all ENTPs are like that. I know several PerC NTs who are warm and caring. My INTP boyfriend is one of the most warm and emotional people I know and I'm pretty sure he'd say something similar about me.

TL;DR not only are we aware of the possible depth and complexity of emotion, we are perfectly capable of experiencing it and understanding that other people experience it as well.

warm thanks for sharing your story Blue Ribbon, your elaborated text is really really helpful :)
No problem :) I'm glad if my posts here can help someone.
 

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a friend INFJ is falling for an ENTP guy. they are hanging out for a couple of weeks now, and she finally had the courage to show her scars.
she says his reaction was pretty hurtful for her to grasp, because he stated "it was a stupid thing to do" and said that all people he had known before to have selfharming issues were unstable "lunatics".
she says he took it pretty lightly, as if it's no big deal but his comments really showed lack of empathy and some ignorance on the topic.
she really likes him so she's scared if this is going to change anything between them. we are now opening this topic to hear your opinions...


what are your general thoughts?
ever had a friend who had problems with it, or had had in the past?
how harsh do you judge people with difficult history that is seen on their body?
would it impact building possible future relationship?
Well that sux. The whole situation. I can say for me...I would have had
a reaction similar to the ENTP. "Well that wasnt very productive was it?"
It is that simple to us. It does not mean we cant read the depth of it
it means more that no matter how deep it went the outcome of self
harm was still a stupid choice. The issue we dont have as ENTP is saying something
is stupid. It does not mean we think the person is stupid per se ..it means they
made a stupid choice. I have massive amounts of stupid. I employ it daily.
We just dont mince words. The ENTP wasn't wrong was he? He was just insensitive.

There are 3 reasons that I know of why people hurt themselves.
1:Attention.
2:Feeling something is better than feeling nothing at all.
3:To mask too many feels (meaning...they hurt so much they use physical pain as a distraction)
Sometimes they work in tandem. (1 and 2or3).

I do not have a ton of respect for people who hurt anyone.
Even less so for people who hurt themselves. It shows
a lot of how they can handle life of which it is not showing
a very good life. How can one expect love, understanding and care
from someone who cannot love, understand and care for themselves?
That is my main issue with dealing with people like that.

There is also mental illness. That alone can be a deal breaker
for some. Who wants to be with a sick person 24/7?

So either way you slice it ? Self harm is very selfish and very telling.
Person is either sick and/or has no self worth. Who would want to date that?
Now that said. If someone was privy to self harm years ago, has since found their
peace and is showing scars of their past ...well. Thats different. Everyone makes
mistakes. Everyone was once someone who was sick and/or confused. The past is
the past sort of thing....

I really hope they can find their footing yet I
dont think this is a ENTP hates girl cause of past issue.
I think this is an Girl is being to sensitive to a somewhat rude response.

If she cannot handle one line overtly obvious statements to items in
life then she needs to think outside the ENTP box. We are blunt to a fault
at times and to change that would be to change everything else you like about
that person. The pros with the cons ..such as it is.

At the same time this does not and should not mean that she cant ask him to
be more sensitive about response. I say.. let the ENTP be the ENTP yet at the
same time the ENTP must recognize that the other person needs to be true to themselves as well.

The ever elusive balance.....
 

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I read some articles online from psychology magazines and I agree you are right. I shouldn't have said that. For me, personally, I once came to find out that someone I know said this to my mother: she cuts for attention. When my mom told me, I rejected it at first, not believing my reasons were so shallow. But the more I thought of it, the more I realized maybe they were right. I'm sure your friend has her own reasons. Does she still harm herself?

I understand she's terrified of the scars. I'm more ashamed than terrified. I'm fine with exposing my scars though. But I might get a tattoo to cover them up. People do ask questions and I just usually make up some lie. Some people are sensible enough to not ask questions about it.
I don't know much about self harm .. but I would expect it to be a cry for attention, but I'd be hesitant calling it that, because I wouldn't expect it to be a conscious cry for help and prob the person doing doesn't realize or feel that it's a cry for help. Obviously the person is hurting psychologically, and I would think that cutting themselves is some sort of unconscious symbolic way of taking the way they feel on the inside and putting it on the outside. I would guess they already feel like they're bleeding inside so they want take that out of them by bringing that feeling to the surface to the physical world.. in a large sense I would guess that it may be cathartic in a similar fashion to how when you're down listening to sad or angry music makes you feel better (happy music makes you feel worse if you're unhappy)..so there is prob a lot of relief felt and it's not just a cry for help, and they prob consciously focus on that.. but I expect it is also a cry for help, because you knows it's an extreme physical expression of the miserable way you feel that other people can see and which will grab their attention and concern and so even though they may consciously deny that they're doing it for attention unconsciously they know it is very much a display of how they feel that is meant to grab people's attention.

But as far as it being a cry for help and attention and whether or not it's intended as one.. it's something that should get attention. The issue of someone cutting themself and harming themself isn't that they're cutting and harming themself, that's just symptoms... the issue is what is causing them to feel so miserable that they're forced to express themselves in that way. Some people cut themselves, some people self medicate w/ alcohol and drugs, some people overeat, ...people have all different vices and weaknesses that end up being their weaknesses when they are stressed/distressed .. but those things aren't really the underlying issue, the underlying issue is an unhappy life... and I think someone who is cutting themself that's what they need help with.


It's hard though being a friend and there for someone who you see has issues. It's really up to the person to want to improve I believe, though they do often need help, but you can't force anyone to change... and many people never seem to change. And it can be a total burden being around someone w/ issues if they force you into some sort of therapist role always hearing them always complain about their problems etc. So I think it's understandable when people distance themselves from others that they see as too much of burden to be around. I find myself doing that. I feel bad sometimes with friends and people I start to become friendly w/ where I'm just like you've got too much baggage for me. Like there's two girls I know that come to mind.. where I hang out w/ them and they end up being bummed out about this and that and we have a heart to heart type of conversation, but then I hang out w/ them more and quickly realize that nope that's every time you hang out w/ them, they have these negative mindsets they get a little alcohol into them and become total downer and it becomes a burden hanging out with them.. and it's like I want to be a kind person, but they're just too much I can't help them. Not to say that someone cutting themselves is necessarily going to be a burden to hang out w/.. but I think it's totally understandable that it would set off flags in people to stay away.


so those are my rambling thoughts
 

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My ex was going through the same thing. Self harm is not a way to fix depression, and while I was able to get my friend to stop IK others that haven't been as lucky. The way I see it its a way for people to assert some level of control over their lives when they seemingly have none; its a person telling themselves "yeah I have power over MY body and MY actions". Its sad, its fucked up, and its not a good long-term solution, but I can empathize with them. She honestly needs to see a shrink, as most guys (especially NTs) won't want to have to deal with that level of depression.
 

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what are your general thoughts?
ever had a friend who had problems with it, or had had in the past?
how harsh do you judge people with difficult history that is seen on their body?
would it impact building possible future relationship?
I'm sorry to say that my knee jerk reaction would be similar. I have alot of restraint now after putting my foot in my mouth so many times so I probably wouldn't say much about it. At the same time though I have self harm issues as well: I used to punch inanimate objects when I was frustrated (not anymore), I will occasional break things when frustrated (seldom now), and when I'm really frustrated with myself nowadays, I will buy a pack of cigarettes. All self harm but manifesting itself in a less obvious way. But when I was younger I had very strong opinions about cutting and have regarded it as foolish.

I've known people who cut and it seemed like attention seeking behavior to me. But every person has different motivations.

I haven't run into anyone lately with self mutilation issues but I would interpret it as a sign of mental instability.

Building a relationship with someone with those problems would generate limits for me. I would probably consider cutting scars a red flag and keep my distance.
 

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Honestly she shouldn’t be with this guy and I don’t know how she can still like him after that. He’s a d**k and that’s that. I would’ve punched him right then and there.

As an ENTP who struggles with depression and for years cut myself, until I started looking for a job, the last thing you need at that point is a narcissistic douche making you feel any worse about yourself than you already do. I highly suggest telling your friend to start looking somewhere else.

On another note, I can be an extreme hypocrite about this topic. For myself, cutting was never to get attention. It was to control the pain being inflicted upon me. So when I saw others cutting for attention I literally would flat out tell them their being stupid. I had no sympathy or mercy. Even when they cried “I didn’t know what was happening to them” when in fact I did because they’d go around telling everyone their reasoning for cutting and it was over shit like Justin beiber cutting his hair.

The fact that he told her that she was stupid likely means he doesn’t like her. The only other ENTP male (doesn’t and has never cut) I know would have never told the girl he likes anything like that. And as an ENTP female neither would I.

TLDR: ENTP is a douche. Friend needs to look somewhere else. He 99% probably has no interest in being romantic with her.
 

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7r4m0n74n4 said:
some ignorance on the topic
A better way of informing NTs about mental illnesses is sending them a few links.

all people he had known before to have selfharming issues were unstable "lunatics"
It seems that his diagnosis of a serious mental illness was correct.

would it impact building possible future relationship?
he took it pretty lightly, as if it's no big deal
For me this is the surprising part.
 

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I look down on self-destructive minds. Sorry not sorry. I looked down on my father's intellect, long before he died from smoking, and still after. Not as a grudge, he was a nice cool INTP, that's just because it's stupid. I always looked down on anyone who even tried to smoke. What kind of retard wouldn't understand that's stupid?

But you have to relativize, to me, it's just a trivial human dysfunction on a long, long list of stupid ways to live. Calling someone stupid doesn't mean they're abnormally stupid and undesirable. Just calling a cat a cat. I dated and loved women who did very stupid things.
 

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a friend INFJ is falling for an ENTP guy. they are hanging out for a couple of weeks now, and she finally had the courage to show her scars.
she says his reaction was pretty hurtful for her to grasp, because he stated "it was a stupid thing to do" and said that all people he had known before to have selfharming issues were unstable "lunatics".
she says he took it pretty lightly, as if it's no big deal but his comments really showed lack of empathy and some ignorance on the topic.
she really likes him so she's scared if this is going to change anything between them. we are now opening this topic to hear your opinions...


what are your general thoughts?
ever had a friend who had problems with it, or had had in the past?
how harsh do you judge people with difficult history that is seen on their body?
would it impact building possible future relationship?
I have dealt a little with friends/friend's kids doing it. I do agree with both assertions discussed that it is both a way to control something (kind of like how anorexia is not usually about actual weight but control) and also is a visible cry for help/attention. In my experience, those that self-harmed may hide it from most people/embarrassed but they do not typically do it without showing it to a few friends or close family. I had a friend who had a horribly damaging relationship with her mom and she cut herself to deal with it, but she showed me and another friend her cuts. It is ultimately done for attention (there are a lot more secret ways of dealing with bad crap in your life no one can visibly see); however, the root cause is psychological issues that have not been dealt with. Like all other psychological issues, I do not judge, but think they need help. It's no different to me than to turn to drugs or alcohol when unable to deal with issues.

Now, idiot ENTP guy's blunt reaction aside (although, I would take an INFJ's sensitive account of the situation with a grain of salt-it may not have been said word for word so bluntly but interpreted that way and "telephoned" back to you), in a relationship, this might fall into "run away!" category depending on the situation. If your friend got help for whatever was causing the self-harm and was completely healthy, the ENTP's reaction may be overblown. However, if I just started dating someone and they showed me scars from self-harm that they never got help for (and might go back to/still do as a way to deal with things), I would definitely not want to be the person who has to be a caretaker for a person with issues who I am not invested in yet. I would walk away before it got serious.

Anyway, ENTPs are not ones who feel good when people "need" them (like an FJ does). We like to solve problems but we rarely like to solve emotional problems (unless we are a 3rd party psychologist who has no stake in the game). However, we are not emotional robots, so if someone we already know and love needs help, we aren't going to run away from it and will do what we can to help. We just likely aren't going to get involved with a person who has unresolved issues to start.

Personally, I think percentage-wise ENTPs are probably not going to be prone to self-harm as much as other types. This doesn't mean that we don't (obviously), I just think it is rarer. The reason I believe this is that first off, it takes a lot more to actually get us depressed than some other types, we are less emotionally sensitive, and if something is bothering us, we tend to handle it head on instead of letting it stew. Also, we tend not to be control freaks and we are little more bendy when it comes to changes/issues in our lives. I would say, instead of self harming or other more "secretive" type activities, we are more likely to bury our feelings with distractions and chemical enhancers that actually make us feel out of control.
 

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@Geonard when I was dealing with depression I never turned to self harm. I did other stuff (got in fights, drank excessively, etc.) but I never physically harmed myself with the intention of causing physical pain. Even if we are depressed, most ENTPs tend to find indirect outlets which are more easily justified than something like self-mutilation.
 
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He sounds insensitive and ignorant on the matter. Perhaps he is in general-- this may be a red flag or two. It is probably just immaturity, but I don't like the idea of anyone's inner emotions getting dismissed as trivial and being rejected. It is even worse with many INFs, who can take such rejection on such a deep, personal level and be wounded for a long, long time.

I wouldn't be concerned if he will stay with her. My greater concern that the INFJ should also assess compatibility. There is no need to invest your emotions and vulnerability for a short-lived relationship. (Unless of course, she is fine with a short term relationship. My INFJ sister and I are only really interested in long-term, serious relationships. The desire to have a short but passionate relationship is perfectly viable too.)

Granted, this is me broadly overreacting and a conclusion garnered from a lack of context on both parties, so grab a salt shaker and shake out a few grains. Allow me to also acknowledge my bias of being wary of all forms of emotional vulnerability to those I haven't assessed for months if not years.
 

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@Geonard when I was dealing with depression I never turned to self harm. I did other stuff (got in fights, drank excessively, etc.) but I never physically harmed myself with the intention of causing physical pain. Even if we are depressed, most ENTPs tend to find indirect outlets which are more easily justified than something like self-mutilation.
In my experience, the people that self-harm are those that have a harder time expressing themselves when angry or upset and internally hold in issues. In all of the people I know that did it, they all were introverts and actually intuitives too. I think Extroverts tend to distract over internalize.

BTW, I am not saying ENTPs don't get depressed. I went through depression when I was in my early 20s. How it manifests makes it significantly less noticeable to other people and less "textbook depression" (like sleeping a lot, not socializing, not taking care of themselves, distancing themselves from loved ones). Our depression tends to have us doing everything we can to avoid being alone with our thoughts. If that means binge drinking, partying, staying out, that's what we will do.
 

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I'm sorry to say that my knee jerk reaction would be similar. I have alot of restraint now after putting my foot in my mouth so many times so I probably wouldn't say much about it. At the same time though I have self harm issues as well: I used to punch inanimate objects when I was frustrated (not anymore), I will occasional break things when frustrated (seldom now), and when I'm really frustrated with myself nowadays, I will buy a pack of cigarettes. All self harm but manifesting itself in a less obvious way. But when I was younger I had very strong opinions about cutting and have regarded it as foolish.
I wouldn't call punching inanimate objects or breaking things as "self-harm". If you hurt yourself in the process, it was not the intended result. Cutting's purpose is to feel your own pain. You know going into cutting yourself that it will hurt and that is what you want from it. Punching a wall is trying to release anger without punching a real person, not to actually hurt yourself. When you do it, it is knee jerk and usually ends with "Fuck! That hurt! Why the hell did I do that?! Why didn't I punch that pillow instead?!"
 

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to @7r4m0n74n4 "is it useful? no. does it contribute to solving a problem? no."

as ENTP I fully agree!

self-mutilation does not fit into the self-improvement mentality, is too "failure zone"... I think is something like "if one wants to harm oneself, let's do it properly -e.g. suicide-, otherwise let's work out a solution -e.g. environmental change-"

to @Ka1serTheRoll ".. indirect outlets..."

I wonder if are related to the leverage rationale.... Said that, I agree that often ENTPs take a lot more risks, and eventually a lot damage.

a friend INFJ is falling for an ENTP guy. they are hanging out for a couple of weeks now, and she finally had the courage to show her scars.

what are your general thoughts?
ever had a friend who had problems with it, or had had in the past?
how harsh do you judge people with difficult history that is seen on their body?
would it impact building possible future relationship?

And responding to the initial question, hypothetically speaking, I don't think I'll considered negative nor positive that scars, but mostly anecdotal. Of course if I plan to have a relation with that person I'll think needs help and support, but that comes anyway with the relation itself, isn't ?

I don't think "ENTP think too much" about having a relation or not, just it happens! Is not rational at that level. There is no "Te" to see failure points, and as non-"J" that one person had done something does not imply anything in the future actions of that person.

Probably is something like this:
- Ne explores the attractiveness and sees the possibilities
- Ti checks if it is mutual and little more (because it does not match Ne flow)
- Fe falls in love actually
- Si keeps the decision in place
 
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