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So i recently did a post about whether or not Ni or Si was my inferior function, and in the beginning was convinced I am an ENFP. But then, other people mentioned good points that made me question myself again, so i decided to create another post but more straight up: ENFP or ESFP.

Previously, I thought i was ENFP because I mentioned I do like thinking of random scenarios and overthink stuff and am a visual thinker, but here is a catch- after my day at school, when I am resting, I tend to just visualize my day at school, replay social interactions, and just think of implications. And then it was mentioned that was Se>Ni, as Ni goes over past events and thinks of implications or something.

It was also mentioed that Ne doms are good at trans-contexual thinking; can make sentences out of words like (dream seed, underwear computer, etc.) faster, more creative, and coherently than other types. I do not think I can purely rely on that test, because I asked other people who are DEF not Ne doms, but they could come up with good sentences like I did creatively.

I am mentally unhealthy and have been for a while, so that makes it difficult to tell my type.

Ne vs Se- I am not always completely attuned to my environment, do think of a scenario that just happened and envision various ways that that event happened (which does sound like Ne), but I do remember before I was neurotic that I was really in the moment and was always excited by future activities but was in the present moment.

Again, I am so sorry if this information is vague or a repeat, but it would benefit me immensly if you guys could ask me questions and help me narrow down my type.
 

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You sound like an Enneagram 7 to me, our highest level of health is characterized by being present in the moment and enjoying sensory activity. As for MBTI, did you take some function tests? I personally prefer this one:

https://www.personalityassessor.com/personality-types/

Since it also shows your Big 5 traits as well as your level of intuition (got mine at 99th percentile) tell us what you got!
 

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My thought might not the best to help you as I guess I personally don't know any Se dom and how their mindset actually works but lets try... Take an exciting sexual fantasy according to your tastes and try to play through it in your mind. Do you find it struggling to choose what path the scenario goes at any point because there are too many options, one more exciting than another? How deep you can go and wind yourself up high enough thinking that ways? Do you experience that imagination in linear or nonlinear ways? Does it create "fireworks" in your mind?

I might be quite wrong as I said I don't know how Se dom's brain actually works but as far as I understand, there might be that Se doms might want to experience that thought in reality to really experience (pardon me if i'm totally wrong) it but Ne doms (at least me) can rewind it through your mind like it's real :)
 

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Oh man.. @tarmonk I doubt I could figure out Se or Ne anything based on sexual fantasy. LOL, but it’s fantasy in general that is the key. S, you are an ENFP. I do t even know if Se doms would worry about it for a second... they definitely wouldn’t think too much about what it means, I don’t think. It’s more like “Oh yeah... someone said I was a ESFP”. Not even looking into it.

Basically can you think in metaphors and concepts? Like comparing one system you understand to a new system you are learning? That’s Ne.

Ni is a Se dom is not going to contribute much to their over-all thought process.

Anyway, another way to tell is this: what physical things have you done today? Were you pushing the boundaries in your physical world, exploring it, learning more from taste touch sound etc. or were you reading? Thinking of ideas? Wondering about MBTI? Wondering about your own values is Fi either way I think.

Dude, you’re one of us... now what will you do about that? Once you figure out MBTI there’s still so much work to do on yourself for each of us beyond MBTI.
 

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Still on the "you are an ESFP" side of things. Oooh, contrasting opinions! Haha! Not gonna repeat what I said here. Need you to respond to some queries to get a better feel for your thinking process.

Se-doms don't live in a complete vacuum of no metaphorical thinking just like how ENFPs can't live in a fantasy bubble and not experience anything (I mean I try, don't get me wrong), having a balance of both is good. Se-doms utilise Ni.
 

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ESFPs are strongly excited and invigorated by action. It's not "I liked feeling like being in the present moment this one time", it's really a seeking for action, especially sensory-type experiences in action. ESFPs I've known have usually liked to channel themselves through some sort of physical expression- i.e. sports, adventure sports, dance, stage acting, etc. Though that's a generalisation, I would say they need some kind of outlet, even if it's just being a VERY social person and having fun. They live and breathe activity.

Ne-doms on the other hand, are only tangentally drawn to activity- i.e. we like activity because activity creates possibilities, and feeds our ability to create connections quickly (if a lot of things are happening, and you're getting new information coming in, it stimulates Ne's spiderweb pattern creating).

Se-doms are also the least likely type to overthink things, it's not their natural mode. Overthinking things would interrupt their ability to seek action, so it's the opposite of what they want.
 

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Oh man.. @tarmonk I doubt I could figure out Se or Ne anything based on sexual fantasy. LOL, but it’s fantasy in general that is the key. S, you are an ENFP. I do t even know if Se doms would worry about it for a second... they definitely wouldn’t think too much about what it means, I don’t think. It’s more like “Oh yeah... someone said I was a ESFP”. Not even looking into it.

Basically can you think in metaphors and concepts? Like comparing one system you understand to a new system you are learning? That’s Ne.

Ni is a Se dom is not going to contribute much to their over-all thought process.

Anyway, another way to tell is this: what physical things have you done today? Were you pushing the boundaries in your physical world, exploring it, learning more from taste touch sound etc. or were you reading? Thinking of ideas? Wondering about MBTI? Wondering about your own values is Fi either way I think.

Dude, you’re one of us... now what will you do about that? Once you figure out MBTI there’s still so much work to do on yourself for each of us beyond MBTI.
True, you're right: fantasy is the key, it isn't important about what it is. I just brought that as an example :) But as you see from my response, only one thing is definitely clear: I'm not ESFP and neither are you :)
 

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ESFPs are strongly excited and invigorated by action. It's not "I liked feeling like being in the present moment this one time", it's really a seeking for action, especially sensory-type experiences in action. ESFPs I've known have usually liked to channel themselves through some sort of physical expression- i.e. sports, adventure sports, dance, stage acting, etc. Though that's a generalisation, I would say they need some kind of outlet, even if it's just being a VERY social person and having fun. They live and breathe activity.

Ne-doms on the other hand, are only tangentally drawn to activity- i.e. we like activity because activity creates possibilities, and feeds our ability to create connections quickly (if a lot of things are happening, and you're getting new information coming in, it stimulates Ne's spiderweb pattern creating).

Se-doms are also the least likely type to overthink things, it's not their natural mode. Overthinking things would interrupt their ability to seek action, so it's the opposite of what they want.
This is a good explanation but looking from outside, it's not always so clear difference. I feel often Ne dom's actions and interests could be observed as Se too because external observer doesn't actually see the process in your head about how you got to that solution or idea or what's behind it - is it action-oriented or idea-driven. That were my one ISTJ friend's words - while I told something to him, to his practical mind it seemed like it's sci-fi or fantasy world what I'm talking about but he couldn't understand some parts of it because it missed the way for him how I reached to my conclusions :) Sometimes he couldn't tell difference if I was fantasizing about something or I told him to really do something in reality.
 

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Well.. @Jawz is a Se-dom who did wonder about his type for a while and loves thinking about ideas. So I guess some Ne and some Se people would like MBTI and figuring themselves out and some Ne and Se people also are NOT interested. So I can go back on what I said. So, hey Jawz, got any ideas for @The Big S here? =)

From this Dario Nardi based How Each Type learn math video I’ve been into, then the speaker says that Ns couldn’t help learning from the actual numbers and the Ss did best when they could put the math info into real life stuff. Watching it clarified S and N fairly well for me in a math sense. The thing is Ne can’t help but trans-contextualize, it’s how we learn. Se can’t help but want action, I think. Jawz, I hope you can help because that’s how dopey I feel about all of this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YH9Zn7Glf3E Try from 4:30 for a bit. I don’t know if it will help or confuse, though.
 

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Hey Alesha - I already worked with him yesterday and after some good back and forth we decided that he's actively showing more inferior Ni as well as Se overall. In his other thread in the ESFP section he does indeed indicate that he has a lot of fairly stereotypical sensor related preferences ... And you're absolutely right when you say that Se wants action. It is the most action orientation function and we go towards "intuition" when we need to return to action and we need to put our big ideas and thoughts into practice in order to feel like we've accomplished/gained something out of whatever activity we've engaged in - even if it is simply reflecting on ourselves, an abstract idea, a theory or a concept. Not many of us will spend years on a subject unless it's consistently giving us some sort of satisfaction in our existing reality.

I had this discussion about what appears to be Ne for ESTP's with another ESTP (I'd mention but he's retired now) and he and I both concluded that Extroverted Intuition because of its extroverted nature is not completely opposed to ESTPs introverted intuition making it easier for us to access it in times of necessity and need. We revert to it when our flow is broken in a crisis because once that flow that is so central to ESTP's is non-existent we need to develop ideas, brainstorm and actively give ourselves access to opportunities we develop in order to continue to function and return ourselves to that flow.

Reality for us is absolute and a must. Deep inside our head is a mishmash of junk (I call it that because it's a lot of loosely fitted/abstract concepts and ideas that need to be taken one at a time and compared with reality in order for them to make sense and be practical). A lot of that junk as I like to call it are abstract ideas, big picture thoughts, loosely related concepts that have collected over the years but have been deemed to not have much practical use or purpose. But often times those deep ideas will connect to something in the external world and it will be like "oh yea, wow that makes so much sense" and that becomes the basis for a new, deeper realization, world-view etc. This can make a more reflective, deep thinking ESTP appear to almost "N-like" mistyping as any of the intuitive types.

The problem with introverted intuition for ESTP's is not that we can't think big (thinking is the T function and not the N function as some tend to think), it's that we actively suppress our hunches and second guess ourselves - therefore tending to at times stick with situations longer than we have to.

At the same time, we tend to have a pull towards spirituality and also orientation towards big picture thinking inside our minds because of the introverted intuition. Just because it's an unconscious side doesn't mean it's just not present. It just means that whatever big picture/future-oriented idea we get we tend to repress, suppress and not think about in the moment, but that over a long sequence of events/and over time we do indeed develop a strong idea or ideas overall.

My most desired goal out of MBTI was to get a solution so I wouldn't repeat the mistakes I made in my 20's. It was still a desire to practically apply cognitive functions to reality. To make use of it somehow. It's never been just about the ideas because almost like a stereotype every time I dive into any conversation my goal is almost always to pull out something practical and useful out of it - irrespective of whether it's abstract or not. Abstraction for the sake of abstraction is essentially a boring activity for me and therefore I tend not to indulge too much into it - unless I have some other (obvious or hidden) motivation that has something to do with my current reality.
 

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Hey Alesha - I already worked with him yesterday and after some good back and forth we decided that he's actively showing more inferior Ni as well as Se overall. In his other thread in the ESFP section he does indeed indicate that he has a lot of fairly stereotypical sensor related preferences ...

I had this discussion about what appears to be Ne for ESTP's with another ESTP (I'd mention but he's retired now) and he and I both concluded that Extroverted Intuition because of its extroverted nature is not completely opposed to ESTPs introverted intuition making it easier for us to access it in times of necessity and need. We revert to it when our flow is broken in a crisis because once that flow that is so central to ESTP's is non-existent we need to develop ideas, brainstorm and actively give ourselves access to opportunities we develop in order to continue to function and return ourselves to that flow.

Reality for us is absolute and a must. Deep inside our head is a mishmash of junk (I call it that because it's a lot of loosely fitted/abstract concepts and ideas that need to be taken one at a time and compared with reality in order for them to make sense and be practical). A lot of that junk as I like to call it are abstract ideas, big picture thoughts, loosely related concepts that have collected over the years but have been deemed to not have much practical use or purpose. But often times those deep ideas will connect to something in the external world and it will be like "oh yea, wow that makes so much sense" and that becomes the basis for a new, deeper realization, world-view etc. This can make a more reflective, deep thinking ESTP appear to almost "N-like" mistyping as any of the intuitive types.

The problem with introverted intuition for ESTP's is not that we can't think big (thinking is the T function and not the N function as some tend to think), it's that we actively suppress our hunches and second guess ourselves - therefore tending to at times stick with situations longer than we have to.

At the same time, we tend to have a pull towards spirituality and also orientation towards big picture thinking inside our minds because of the introverted intuition. Just because it's an unconscious side doesn't mean it's just not present. It just means that whatever big picture/future-oriented idea we get we tend to repress, suppress and not think about in the moment, but that over a long sequence of events/and over time we do indeed develop a strong idea or ideas overall.

My most desired goal out of MBTI was to get a solution so I wouldn't repeat the mistakes I made in my 20's. It was still a desire to practically apply cognitive functions to reality. To make use of it somehow. It's never been just about the ideas because almost like a stereotype every time I dive into any conversation my goal is almost always to pull out something practical and useful out of it - irrespective of whether it's abstract or not. Abstraction for the sake of abstraction is essentially a boring activity for me and therefore I tend not to indulge too much into it - unless I have some other (obvious or hidden) motivation that has something to do with my current reality.
Awesome, Jawz. It gives me a much better understanding and actually a lot more commonality to think about. Thank you very much for this and for helping the big s. =)
 

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From this Dario Nardi based How Each Type learn math video I’ve been into, then the speaker says that Ns couldn’t help learning from the actual numbers and the Ss did best when they could put the math info into real life stuff. Watching it clarified S and N fairly well for me in a math sense. The thing is Ne can’t help but trans-contextualize, it’s how we learn. Se can’t help but want action, I think. Jawz, I hope you can help because that’s how dopey I feel about all of this.
Actually, I might have a great example of this. When I was in gradeschool they tried implementing a technique where we each got a bag full of sticks in different lengths and colors. Each of the sticks would represent a number, so after getting to know all the numbers each stick represents it would become easier for people who depend on physicality for learning to do math. Simple right? Well I thought it was. Easy, Nine is the really long purple one and two is the really short yellow one. Well, that technique didn't last very long in our country's curriculum simply because it caused massive confusion for most of the students. This kind of technique requires trans-contextual thinking, since for most sensors a red stick is a red stick, it's not a 5. People started answering in colors instead of numbers.
 

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Actually, I might have a great example of this. When I was in gradeschool they tried implementing a technique where we each got a bag full of sticks in different lengths and colors. Each of the sticks would represent a number, so after getting to know all the numbers each stick represents it would become easier for people who depend on physicality for learning to do math. Simple right? Well I thought it was. Easy, Nine is the really long purple one and two is the really short yellow one. Well, that technique didn't last very long in our country's curriculum simply because it caused massive confusion for most of the students. This kind of technique requires trans-contextual thinking, since for most sensors a red stick is a red stick, it's not a 5. People started answering in colors instead of numbers.
Oh my gosh... fascinating. That was like asking the sensors to make a symbol out of five apples (the symbol is the number 5) and then asking them to make a second symbol out of the color red. Gosh.... lol....
Here’s the video again
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YH9Zn7Glf3E
 

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Actually, I might have a great example of this. When I was in gradeschool they tried implementing a technique where we each got a bag full of sticks in different lengths and colors. Each of the sticks would represent a number, so after getting to know all the numbers each stick represents it would become easier for people who depend on physicality for learning to do math. Simple right? Well I thought it was. Easy, Nine is the really long purple one and two is the really short yellow one. Well, that technique didn't last very long in our country's curriculum simply because it caused massive confusion for most of the students. This kind of technique requires trans-contextual thinking, since for most sensors a red stick is a red stick, it's not a 5. People started answering in colors instead of numbers.
Saying that X=5 and B=10 therefore X+B=15 is mathematical not trans-contextual. That would be like saying that sensors can't learn math.

They just over-complicated a simple concept and that's probably why the confusion happened. It seems like a completely unnecessary step in order to teach someone how to solve equations. It's inefficient imo.
 

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Oh my gosh... fascinating. That was like asking the sensors to make a symbol out of five apples (the symbol is the number 5) and then asking them to make a second symbol out of the color red. Gosh.... lol....
Here’s the video again
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YH9Zn7Glf3E
That's what happens when you let intuitives make something more compatible to sensors, the just make it worse lol I have to say it was one of the more amusing times at school. I was on the floor every time somebody came up with a silly answer or alternative to those sticks. Meanwhile, I'm here thinking of a hundred different ways to make myself complete this report instead of just finishing it.
@Jawz Sensors still have a harder time grasping math than intuitives, I'm not saying they can't, it's just in a different way. And I found no problem with the sticks, to me it didn't really matter, while a lot of people got frustrated by it saying the same as you that it's inefficient, which it indeed is.
 

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@Jawz Sensors still have a harder time grasping math than intuitives, I'm not saying they can't, it's just in a different way. And I found no problem with the sticks, to me it didn't really matter, while a lot of people got frustrated by it saying the same as you that it's inefficient, which it indeed is.
Schrodinger's Sensors according to typology forums: Simultaneously control the world, organize it to favor themselves, while also being bad at math, big ideas and abstract thinking.

Please. Stop. Relating. Nonsense. To. Functions.

I'm being light-hearted for now, but I would be interested in you backing up the claim that Sensors have a harder time grasping math. This should be interesting.
 

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Schrodinger's Sensors according to typology forums: Simultaneously control the world, organize it to favor themselves, while also being bad at math, big ideas and abstract thinking.

Please. Stop. Relating. Nonsense. To. Functions.

I'm being light-hearted for now, but I would be interested in you backing up the claim that Sensors have a harder time grasping math. This should be interesting.
You know what? I'll rephrase myself. Math is largely an abstract idea that is highly applicable for use in day to day life. Sensors have no problem in learning the concept, they just use it when it's applicable, not for it's own sake. Same goes for trans--contextual thinking, you can use it and I'm sure you're very good at it, just like I have a good Se at times where I see it necessary. Meanwhile, I'm using Ne by instinct, it's my go-to function, that's why I might have more experience than you at trans-contextual thinking. Okay, so you say that this example I gave is math, but for me it's also a kind of trans-contextual thinking, and this, by itself, is also a form of trans-contextual thinking that you're not willing to see, mainly because you find terming it as a different subject as easier and more practical than seeing it as something of a bigger whole, which I in turn would find more efficient and logical. Capiche?
 

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You know what? I'll rephrase myself. Math is largely an abstract idea that is highly applicable for use in day to day life. Sensors have no problem in learning the concept, they just use it when it's applicable, not for it's own sake.
There is abstraction in some aspects of math, but that does not mean that it would make sensors bad at grasping it even in a purely theoretical fashion simply because that abstraction now exists in concrete form with theorums and proofs that follow linear thought. When it comes to abstractions and intuition the connection there is in creation and solving of new abstractions as opposed to understanding generalized principles that already have those explanations. That is by and large, as a whole the true context of Jung's "creation" and "abstraction" when it comes to his intuitive types.

It has little to nothing to do with complexity in and of itself. Complexity and capability fall outside the realm of Jung's core ideas behind cognition.

Most of math is actually very concrete and the example that you used is simple. The problem arises in complication of theorums and proofs not in their abstractedness because when you break every theory down, it is based on concrete principles which seek to objectively explain reality.

Bohr's atom is an abstract concept and eventually through persuit and more scientific scrutiny it was eventually proven to be false. There are several other exampels.

Also, the above a different claim from below:

@Jawz Sensors still have a harder time grasping math than intuitives, I'm not saying they can't, it's just in a different way. And I found no problem with the sticks, to me it didn't really matter, while a lot of people got frustrated by it saying the same as you that it's inefficient, which it indeed is.
Please tell me how you arrived at the conclusion that Sensors have a harder time grasping math than intuitives. What is the evidence for this claim? I know Te is not comfortable for most ENFP's and therefore you're getting aggravated at having to justify a claim, but in order to move this conversation forward you need to support the claim.

Same goes for trans--contextual thinking, you can use it and I'm sure you're very good at it, just like I have a good Se at times where I see it necessary. Meanwhile, I'm using Ne by instinct, it's my go-to function, that's why I might have more experience than you at trans-contextual thinking. Okay, so you say that this example I gave is math, but for me it's also a kind of trans-contextual thinking, and this, by itself, is also a form of trans-contextual thinking that you're not willing to see, mainly because you find terming it as a different subject as easier and more practical than seeing it as something of a bigger whole, which I in turn would find more efficient and logical. Capiche?
We were never comparing one another here at all so I have no clue why you're resorting to comparing myself to yourself in this discussion where I simply asked you to back up why sensors would be bad at math?

IMO, you didn't cite or give me an intuitive thought. You gave me a claim that I asked you to justify. If you can justify that claim through intuition even, I would still like to hear it instead of tangents. Tangents can work only if they're used to arrive to a conclusion. You've arrived at your conclusion. You just simply need to express how and support your argument with some sort of explanation.
 

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@Jawz As I said. Math = abstract concept that could be proven by physical phenomena. Intuitives = grasp math concept without having to go much into detail as long as it fits the big picture. Sensors = grasp math concept by going into the details in order to understand the big picture. I didn't say that you suck at math, I said that you have a different way of learning it that I see as a more troublesome way, because you need an extra step of detailing an introduced concept before integrating it into the bigger picture, which is done by practice. You want a concrete example? Watch the Dario Nardi lecture that Llyralen sent. Or better:

 

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Lol...this is now so interesting! And it’s really good to learn how sensors see things @Jawz. I think it’s so easy—because Ns learn pretty much only through intuition— to think of math as purely abstract. Because I only learn math through abstract concepts and it’s almost impossible for me to think of how a sensor learns math. But math IS basically only a language to describe real concrete things in the world. So it doesn’t have to be looked at as abstract! There is a way to understand it the sensing way...but ranged if I could th8nk of how. This is why I need to talk to sensors more. And thank you, @Jawz.

By the way, we still use Bohr’s model to teach chemistry because it helps us learn the other parts of things. Oh, how sensors and intuitive learn chemistry would be another highly interesting topic. Did I need the straws and play dough. internally I’m very visual so I always just made the models in my head, but I admit that getting past Bohr and into electron fields was difficult for me and luckily I didn’t need to much, as my area of chemistry is biological and not physics, but still... you know, I also didn’t like the way in which calculus was taught to me. I had a harder time with it, when I think it probably should have been easier. I do wonder if it is the WAY in which it was being taught to me, because usually designing a roller coaster you would think a ENFP could do. I had Si teachers for calculus both in high school and in college...so there was just all of that repetition stuff and probably not enough of whatever I needed.

Anyway, @Jawz what do you think of that tedtalks math video I posted above? What about the looking out of a window stuff? And do you learn better if you can move around, etc?

I wonder if @elvis2010 is around?
 
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