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I'm in a really difficult position with an ESTJ friend,
and would really appreciate some advice on the situation :)

I've been acquaintances w/ an ESTJ for almost 4 yrs now. This last yr or two we've gotten to know each other better as friends and I really want to keep her as a friend. Only that when we started doing business together, there's been nothing but this uncomfortable conflict. I'm an INFJ. needless to say, we don't communicate in the same language(in the same way).

So I've been renting space from her. She's been in the field of work for many years but no longer practices (only occasionally). Honestly, she's an amazing person and takes on many projects at the same time. We're actually quite similar in this regard. I'm thinking she may be an enng 7 if this helps.

anyways, I haven't had the greatest success getting clients in the door. Partly due to road blocks I've encountered for child care. And partly because I haven't the funds to take on marketing and networking as much as is needed for start up. The rent in incredibly reasonable so I've been paying it regardless out of my passive income.(which isn't much. all the more reason I've been dying to get my feet off the ground).

Now as I said, she has her foot in many doors. She runs a non for profit, she's in school, she still practices as a MT on occasion, she's a landlord, unfortunately went through a divorce this last year and is dealing with the obstinate pain in the ass ex. She has other employment history/connections and side jobs w/in the field of human resources. One of the HR jobs she had was in a group home for disabled adults. She no longer works there but had for many years. This is important to note because I myself, have a disabled little boy.

The problem is that quite often, she advice's me but not directly. Her close friend (the girl I met her through) is an INFP and is coincidentally, probably my closest best friend. It has always bothered me how she can't directly say her piece to me. So my INFP friend is always caught in the middle. I must be honest in that this irritates me to no end. I have never been unapproachable but she (as so many people for whatever reason) seem to have a hard time approaching me. I'm not so sure why but I have my theories.

now for the last several months I hear about how she thinks I should be doing things different as a mother. More specifically, how I should be not trying to start up my business(making money) and how I should be focusing on respite and placement for my son. My son is as tall as me and in the next few years, I have to plan transitioning. But in my mind, I want an income prior to this happening. And I had hoped, to be able to afford the child care in conjunction with getting respite up and running. And to be honest, as a single parent, I've been spread super thin. So I really am just doing the best I can. Apparently, it's not good enough (which I realize isn't true) it is more or less that people think I should be approaching everything in a different way. I'm not so sure what I should be doing. I'm really doing the best I can. I'm trying to improve quality life. I don't know why anyone would blame me for attempting to do this so hard.

So the most recant of events, is that for the last few months, she is constantly venting to my INFP friend about how she is going to call the group home. She will say it one day all friendly like, "I'm gonna help and email them" only to the next day be venting why I am not on top of it. I'm not doing that first, I've been trying to get clients to make money! This diatribe has been going for about 2 months now. She's gonna call so and so. She's gonna email so and so. ALL WITHOUT ME ASKING. Because that is not what I want NOW. I have that lined up to do AFTER I start making money. Or so I had hoped.

So the most recent "vents" just through me overboard. For one, renting from her has been difficult with communication from the get go. And that is another story. But know, that I have not been happy with the dynamic from day one. There is no communication. That is NOT okay with me. And the one time I DID get her to communicate, I had to hunt her down and put her against the wall type of situation. We sat in a room and hashed out concerns, and got on the same page. She said at that time, that she's like a guy. Just be direct. But I DO! I AM direct! she's avoidant And I realize that this avoidance has nothing to do with me insomuch as she just takes on TOO MUCH. not to sound cold but, that is not my problem.

I often find people will put themselves in scenarios (they'll say they'll do something or take on projects) only to later bitch about it. But no one asks you to say yes. you CAN say no to people. I say no to people all the time! People don't find me angry because I don't do or say things I am not comfortable doing or saying! I'm not saying I'm better but, isn't this what adults should do? It often feels as though people aren't happy unless they're unhappy. It's as if they set themselves up. And it's just not so cool to the people who care about you. And so here this woman is, amazing as she is, upset that she's taking care of other people's problems (such as is the group home thing) but no one is asking her! It makes no sense!

So she tells the INFP that she was going to email the group home (again). and then texts me that she hopes I go to check it out. that it might be better for me to just up and go. I text back that it's a great idea. what's the address. And sure enough, she's venting (not to me) that why can't I just google it. She's worked there for years, I was just asking. If she didn't know the address off hand, why couldn't she just tell me that!

So I finally had enough. I decided to pull the plug. She didn't want to do a lease and that is another story. So I told her that I appreciated her concern but that I feel it isn't fair to be frustrated over a situation I did not ask her help with. (of course now she is seemingly blaming the INFP for telling me). and I told her that it's been 4 months and I obviously am not able to afford this anymore. In my mind I can't figure it out. why didn't she just help me get clients?! It makes no sense. my INFP friend, who is always the devils advocate for me, said "maybe she didn't think it was her responsibility to help you get clients". I say I know. And it's not that I expected her too! But it isn't her responsibility to help me with the group home either.

She's been pissed about helping me with something she hasn't even done! She never ended up emailing or calling them so wtf. So now, all the fun friendship part of everything is lost? I'm so irritated. She thinks I'm angry with her. I'm not!!! I asked my INFP friend what she thought of what I wrote. She said it was really mature, diplomatic and honest. Okay ... so where is the problem?! Why do people have a hard time communicating with me?!

I'm irritated. I'm irritated she just can't talk to me. And this is a problem with a lot of people. Someone I had an argument with the other day said, "little ole me? you're like miss strong and been through all this shit" and so on. It's so unfair! I don't like how people feel around me. It's as if people feel like they can't complain about their life around me or feel sorry for themselves, and often people generally speaking, will talk to me as if I'm a parent. It's REALLY WEIRD!!! I just want to have friends! I just want people to stop taking everything so goddamn serious. These are all external structures we deal with as we roll with the punches. Why is it so hard to connect with me for some people? more specifically, my ESTJ friend.

so now I feel terrible. What does she expect. She knows this isn't going well and isn't easy for me. She barely has any time to connect with anyone besides her super weird ISTJ boyfriend. I say weird because he doesn't seem to be helping her. He apparently isn't giving any sound advice. The poor woman is being pulled apart from the seams and I can't help her. I can't because she won't talk. And it's awful to see. and I'm sad because she denies me the benefit of being her friend and enjoying her company as a friend (like many people end up doing). It sucks.

I want to write her and ask how she is feeling. But I won't. I haven't. I never do. I know she doesn't like that. No one ever does. I don't analyze people with conscious effort anymore. I get my "counselor" fix on the forum. I just want to have friends. :(

Is there any advice as to how to smooth this over?

I really don't want to lose her as a connection. I want to help and talk (be reasonable) but it's like a no win. And I don't like no win situations. I always feel like people put me in these no win situations. I'm so sick of the win/lose mind paradigms people have. Don't they realize how they isolate themselves from other people when they do that?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you for reading! I realize it ended up being TL;DR :p
 

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Finished reading it. Let me eat and think it over for a couple hours. Will get back to you. Just posted this as a short notice that your post has not gone unnoticed.
 
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Finished reading it. Let me eat and think it over for a couple hours. Will get back to you. Just posted this as a short notice that your post has not gone unnoticed.
Thank you! :))

I appreciate your thoughts/time very much!
 

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Alright, well I don't know that I have a lot of help to offer, but I did have a few comments to make that might be helpful.

First you were saying how it didn't make sense that she would take all this on her plate when it wasn't really hers to deal with and she could have just said no? or did I misread that? Anyway, ESTJs often do this because they feel others are incompetent of doing it. It's not that we try to put more on our plate than we can handle, it's just that we think we can handle it better than anyone else because they either don't know what they are doing or don't know how to handle it "correctly" and efficiently. In our minds, this makes it our responsibility. This happens to me at work all the time. I have a specific job to do, but often I end up doing someone else's job because I don't feel they are doing it properly. Yes, it stretches me, and yes, it's more than I can usually handle correctly, but I have to. Because they aren't doing it well. Does this make sense? The more ESTJs I talk to, the more confident I am that this is an ESTJ thing and not just a me thing.

You also mentioned that she thinks you're mad at her, but you aren't? I am also definitely the "direct" type of person. I like for people to come talk to me to my face and just bluntly tell me what is going on. But in my experience, if someone is upset at me (or if I think they are upset at me), at least if it is someone I respect and not just someone I would trample over, I pretty much do everything in my power to avoid them. The idea of them being upset at me and saying a bunch of things to my face that I would be uncomfortable answering is unbearable. Maybe one way to smooth things over would be to let her know you aren't upset at her? That would definitely be one step in the right direction.

As far as her not thinking you are running your life the way you should... again, that is a typical ESTJ thing. we think we know the way things are supposed to be done and we don't like deviation. But it is your life. You need to let her know that you appreciate her as a friend and want her input but aren't going to let her run your life for you. Again, be a straight shooter and tell her things flat out. I know she is avoiding you, but there has to be some way to get in touch with her. Send her a lengthy email, maybe?

About taking everything too seriously, that could be a trait common to ESTJs. I know my sister (ENFP) and my friend (INTP) always think I take everything too seriously. I wish I could just let loose and have a little more fun sometimes. I don't know why, but I can't. taking things seriously is just what I do. It takes a lot of effort to be able to forget about "real life" and relax and have fun. My sister has gotten to the point where she can sometimes help me "find my inner child" or whatever for small periods of time, but she has known me all her life and has had a lot of practice. It doesn't come naturally to me. My INTP friend nicknamed me the "overlord of boring" if that gives you any idea. Just realize she doesn't want to be boring. ESTJs like having fun too. We just don't always know how. Especially if we have a lot on our plate to think about, which it sounds like she does.

As far as writing to her, it is not true that no one appreciates that. It is one of the best ways my friends can encourage me and show their support and how much they care for me. I don't know if that is something all ESTJs like, but you could try it.

Other than that, I don't really know what to tell you. But I hope you are able to smooth things over.
 

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To be honest its very common for ESTJs to have difficulty communicating with people easily, because we don't like useless talking when we know its not going to make any difference ,but what you said about your problem between you and your estj friend ,then I would advice you talk to her in a business way, if you want to do something then be sure and confident about it ,avoid any doubts or superficial thoughts and foremost be practical about it .Its natural that when we plan to do something new ,we face these kind of situations but what one must do in that situation is to come out of their comfort zone ,learn to take risks ,take failures in an optimistic way and be positive about things .One cannot achieve success in a venture overnight,everything takes some time to settle down,just don't lose hope and patience .

As for your estj friend then give her some space ,if she wants to contribute some help she will do so surely ,but if you constantly worry yourself and her about these things then obviously your relationship with her will strain. The most important thing to know about making relationship with estjs is to gain their trust ,which doesn't come easily ,you have to work for it . Prior to asking or expecting some help from her you need to show some of your own potential and faith in this venture you are planning to do .Once you do this I'm sure things will work out well and your friend will be impressed to provide her resources as well for your help.

Have faith and confidence in your ownself,I know people try to judge you when you do something that they least expect of you and try to discourage you but don't listen to such negative thoughts .Just stand on your ground and move on ,life never dissapoints you when you make efforts from your heart, honest dedication and hardwork.
 

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I'm in a really difficult position with an ESTJ friend,
and would really appreciate some advice on the situation :)

I've been acquaintances w/ an ESTJ for almost 4 yrs now. This last yr or two we've gotten to know each other better as friends and I really want to keep her as a friend. Only that when we started doing business together, there's been nothing but this uncomfortable conflict. I'm an INFJ. needless to say, we don't communicate in the same language(in the same way).

So I've been renting space from her. She's been in the field of work for many years but no longer practices (only occasionally). Honestly, she's an amazing person and takes on many projects at the same time. We're actually quite similar in this regard. I'm thinking she may be an enng 7 if this helps.

anyways, I haven't had the greatest success getting clients in the door. Partly due to road blocks I've encountered for child care. And partly because I haven't the funds to take on marketing and networking as much as is needed for start up. The rent in incredibly reasonable so I've been paying it regardless out of my passive income.(which isn't much. all the more reason I've been dying to get my feet off the ground).

Now as I said, she has her foot in many doors. She runs a non for profit, she's in school, she still practices as a MT on occasion, she's a landlord, unfortunately went through a divorce this last year and is dealing with the obstinate pain in the ass ex. She has other employment history/connections and side jobs w/in the field of human resources. One of the HR jobs she had was in a group home for disabled adults. She no longer works there but had for many years. This is important to note because I myself, have a disabled little boy.

The problem is that quite often, she advice's me but not directly. Her close friend (the girl I met her through) is an INFP and is coincidentally, probably my closest best friend. It has always bothered me how she can't directly say her piece to me. So my INFP friend is always caught in the middle. I must be honest in that this irritates me to no end. I have never been unapproachable but she (as so many people for whatever reason) seem to have a hard time approaching me. I'm not so sure why but I have my theories.

now for the last several months I hear about how she thinks I should be doing things different as a mother. More specifically, how I should be not trying to start up my business(making money) and how I should be focusing on respite and placement for my son. My son is as tall as me and in the next few years, I have to plan transitioning. But in my mind, I want an income prior to this happening. And I had hoped, to be able to afford the child care in conjunction with getting respite up and running. And to be honest, as a single parent, I've been spread super thin. So I really am just doing the best I can. Apparently, it's not good enough (which I realize isn't true) it is more or less that people think I should be approaching everything in a different way. I'm not so sure what I should be doing. I'm really doing the best I can. I'm trying to improve quality life. I don't know why anyone would blame me for attempting to do this so hard.

So the most recant of events, is that for the last few months, she is constantly venting to my INFP friend about how she is going to call the group home. She will say it one day all friendly like, "I'm gonna help and email them" only to the next day be venting why I am not on top of it. I'm not doing that first, I've been trying to get clients to make money! This diatribe has been going for about 2 months now. She's gonna call so and so. She's gonna email so and so. ALL WITHOUT ME ASKING. Because that is not what I want NOW. I have that lined up to do AFTER I start making money. Or so I had hoped.

So the most recent "vents" just through me overboard. For one, renting from her has been difficult with communication from the get go. And that is another story. But know, that I have not been happy with the dynamic from day one. There is no communication. That is NOT okay with me. And the one time I DID get her to communicate, I had to hunt her down and put her against the wall type of situation. We sat in a room and hashed out concerns, and got on the same page. She said at that time, that she's like a guy. Just be direct. But I DO! I AM direct! she's avoidant And I realize that this avoidance has nothing to do with me insomuch as she just takes on TOO MUCH. not to sound cold but, that is not my problem.

I often find people will put themselves in scenarios (they'll say they'll do something or take on projects) only to later bitch about it. But no one asks you to say yes. you CAN say no to people. I say no to people all the time! People don't find me angry because I don't do or say things I am not comfortable doing or saying! I'm not saying I'm better but, isn't this what adults should do? It often feels as though people aren't happy unless they're unhappy. It's as if they set themselves up. And it's just not so cool to the people who care about you. And so here this woman is, amazing as she is, upset that she's taking care of other people's problems (such as is the group home thing) but no one is asking her! It makes no sense!

So she tells the INFP that she was going to email the group home (again). and then texts me that she hopes I go to check it out. that it might be better for me to just up and go. I text back that it's a great idea. what's the address. And sure enough, she's venting (not to me) that why can't I just google it. She's worked there for years, I was just asking. If she didn't know the address off hand, why couldn't she just tell me that!

So I finally had enough. I decided to pull the plug. She didn't want to do a lease and that is another story. So I told her that I appreciated her concern but that I feel it isn't fair to be frustrated over a situation I did not ask her help with. (of course now she is seemingly blaming the INFP for telling me). and I told her that it's been 4 months and I obviously am not able to afford this anymore. In my mind I can't figure it out. why didn't she just help me get clients?! It makes no sense. my INFP friend, who is always the devils advocate for me, said "maybe she didn't think it was her responsibility to help you get clients". I say I know. And it's not that I expected her too! But it isn't her responsibility to help me with the group home either.

She's been pissed about helping me with something she hasn't even done! She never ended up emailing or calling them so wtf. So now, all the fun friendship part of everything is lost? I'm so irritated. She thinks I'm angry with her. I'm not!!! I asked my INFP friend what she thought of what I wrote. She said it was really mature, diplomatic and honest. Okay ... so where is the problem?! Why do people have a hard time communicating with me?!

I'm irritated. I'm irritated she just can't talk to me. And this is a problem with a lot of people. Someone I had an argument with the other day said, "little ole me? you're like miss strong and been through all this shit" and so on. It's so unfair! I don't like how people feel around me. It's as if people feel like they can't complain about their life around me or feel sorry for themselves, and often people generally speaking, will talk to me as if I'm a parent. It's REALLY WEIRD!!! I just want to have friends! I just want people to stop taking everything so goddamn serious. These are all external structures we deal with as we roll with the punches. Why is it so hard to connect with me for some people? more specifically, my ESTJ friend.

so now I feel terrible. What does she expect. She knows this isn't going well and isn't easy for me. She barely has any time to connect with anyone besides her super weird ISTJ boyfriend. I say weird because he doesn't seem to be helping her. He apparently isn't giving any sound advice. The poor woman is being pulled apart from the seams and I can't help her. I can't because she won't talk. And it's awful to see. and I'm sad because she denies me the benefit of being her friend and enjoying her company as a friend (like many people end up doing). It sucks.

I want to write her and ask how she is feeling. But I won't. I haven't. I never do. I know she doesn't like that. No one ever does. I don't analyze people with conscious effort anymore. I get my "counselor" fix on the forum. I just want to have friends. :(

Is there any advice as to how to smooth this over?

I really don't want to lose her as a connection. I want to help and talk (be reasonable) but it's like a no win. And I don't like no win situations. I always feel like people put me in these no win situations. I'm so sick of the win/lose mind paradigms people have. Don't they realize how they isolate themselves from other people when they do that?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you for reading! I realize it ended up being TL;DR :p
Okay, to start, you are being pulled in a lot of different directions over this ESTJ.

On one hand, you don't like her indirect methods of trying to help you resolve one situation. On another, you don't like how unhelpful she is in other situations where you want help.

On a third hand (I know you don't have a third hand, but moving onto feet sounds weird), you worry for her emotional well being because of her lifestyle while simultaneously claiming her busy schedule is not your problem.

And on a fourth hand, you say you're not upset with her even though you've written a very long post addressing the situation with her, most of which reads with a heavy dose of frustration.

To be honest, it sounds like you want a lot of different things from this situation, very few of which can happen simultaneously.


I don't want to get into the minute details of who should or shouldn't have done what, so I'll try to keep things plain:

First off, you need to tell your INFP friend that if the ESTJ comes to her about your problems, the INFP needs to tell the ESTJ to take them directly to you. The INFP should not be the middleman-- that is only going to stress her out and put strain on her friendships with you and the ESTJ.

In other words, the INFP needs to extricate herself from this situation.

Second, you wrote this:

I have never been unapproachable but she (as so many people for whatever reason) seem to have a hard time approaching me. I'm not so sure why but I have my theories.
If multiple people in your life have had problems approaching you, you are probably not unapproachable.

You need to start finding out why people are avoiding you, because it sounds like this is a huge source of conflict for you in your general relationships.

Your ESTJ is right-- ESTJs are generally very straightforward. Which means if your ESTJ is being indirect and avoidant-- there is a reason for it.

I can't be entirely certain, but perhaps this one of the reasons why:

And to be honest, as a single parent, I've been spread super thin.
Single parenting, especially with a disabled child, is exhausting.

My mother did it with a my brother (although he wasn't disabled), and it was a daunting task. It's not easy to do what you're doing, and it's not surprising that all the effort you're putting into your life is wearing you thin.

But consider how your "spread thin" state is potentially affecting your attitude-- or even the way you come off to others (whether you mean it or not). Personally, I know I turn into a roaring, angry, head-chomping lion bitch when I'm just barely holding things together and someone comes in and tries to shuffle all the pieces (even under the guise of being helpful).

It's entirely possible she senses how stretched you are, and doesn't think directly addressing you will make things better. This may be one of the reasons she's been going through someone else-- she thinks they will be able to pass on her advice without creating a conflict.

As EmmaGilbert mentioned, ESTJs have a tendency to want to solve problems, especially if they think someone is not handling the issue well. It is highly likely your particular ESTJ is feeling like this about your problem.

Which leads me to two points:

1. Recognize that her wanting to fix the situation means that she cares about you. For us, Fi generally manifests itself as an action-- we like to show how much we care by helping, even if at times it seems like meddling to others.

2. You need to sit her down and talk to her. If you've decided on a course of action regarding the situation she keeps trying to interfere with, you need to pull her aside and calmly let her know that you've made your choice and plan to continue with it. Feel free to explain why you chose your plan-- but make sure that you are firm about the fact that you are following through with your decision. If you aren't firm, she'll think your plan is up for discussion. You need to let her know that you don't plan on changing your course, but that you would be happy to receive her help in making your choice end with the most success possible.

If you take away her opportunity to offer an alternative route, she will (most likely) stop suggesting it. We don't generally tend to question someone after they have firmly made up their mind about something (even if we disagree with the choice made).

One of the best things you can do is ask for her help with very specific things that tie into your larger goal plan. This will help in a few ways:

- it will allow her to feel like she's actively influencing the situation while simultaneously keeping you in control
- it will give her something to focus on (rather than spending time trying to direct you)
- it will allow you to focus on your goals with her as your ally rather than your enemy

By giving her small tasks to complete, you are letting her feel like she is actively helping to make a difference to the situation. By making sure the tasks you give her are specific, you allow yourself to truly retain control of the situation and her decisions regarding it.


And I realize that this avoidance has nothing to do with me insomuch as she just takes on TOO MUCH. not to sound cold but, that is not my problem.
Two things:

1. The avoidance is probably related to you and not how busy she is with her schedule.
2. You are absolutely right, her busy lifestyle IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. It sounds like you already have a lot on your plate. You do not need to take on her issues (this includes her emotional well being) on top of everything else you are doing:

She barely has any time to connect with anyone besides her super weird ISTJ boyfriend. I say weird because he doesn't seem to be helping her. He apparently isn't giving any sound advice. The poor woman is being pulled apart from the seams and I can't help her. I can't because she won't talk. And it's awful to see. and I'm sad because she denies me the benefit of being her friend and enjoying her company as a friend (like many people end up doing). It sucks.
I know you feel upset about her situation, and her lack of talking about it, but this is NOT your problem. You need to focus on your own life first and let her worry about herself.

It probably doesn't sound like a friend thing to say, but think about it like this:

If you resolve your issues, she doesn't have to worry about them. If she doesn't have to worry about them, she'll feel a little less stressed. Indirectly, you will have helped her.

This sounds idiotic, but it's often how these things work.

I can't because she won't talk.
I could go on about the Fe/Fi divide (it's what helped wreck a relationship I had with an INFJ), but I'll try to keep it simple for brevity's sake:

ESTJs are Fi-inferior. Fi types in general (but Fi inferiors in particular) view emotion (especially negative emotions) as a very personal and private experience.

It is normal for ESTJs to keep their feelings to themselves. You need to accept this and realize that that is simply who she is. Even if you don't like it or you think it is doing her harm, you need to leave it alone.

If you feel absolutely compelled to say something, offer to hear her problems if she ever needs to talk, and LEAVE IT AT THAT. Don't push her for a response, don't try to bring up specific concerns to see if you can open her up to you.

I cannot stress this enough-- do not attempt to ignore her method of dealing with her emotions and instead substitute your own method of handling them because you think it will be better for her. You will cause a LOT of problems doing this.

Offer to be there for her when she needs it and leave the rest to her.


Is there any advice as to how to smooth this over?

Recognize that she is doing what she thinks is best for you, even if you do not see it.

First, take some time and think about why she (like many others) has found you unapproachable. If these actions are the result of something you can change, change it. Sometimes the first thing to be dealt with in order to resolve a relationship problem with a personal matter.

Second, set aside time to talk with her about the indirect advice scenario. Work it into your schedules-- set a time and place and make sure you have somewhere to be afterwards. This will help keep the conversation from getting off track when you do have it.

Third, if you do not feel you can be calm and level in a discussion with her, write out everything (not the stuff related to her boyfriend or her emotions) and hand deliver it to her. It is much easier for an ESTJ to read a letter than deal with an emotional person. It also gives her time to think about the situation without being forced to give an answer on the spot.

Let her know where you stand, and tell her what role you want her to play in your future.

Be honest and clear-- but do not press your emotional state on her. Explain it calmly or write it out. That will allow her to give you the best response she can-- and hopefully one that will make you both ultimately happy.
 

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@Marlowe pretty much summed things up. Good Job! Also, everyone who posted here has helped. I have nothing to add. Good luck with your friend. :)
 
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