[WickedQueen]

Most of PC members said they don't like us. They said we're bossy, bully, rigid, yada yada yada. But on the other hand, some of them also admit that society wants them to be more like ESTJs, which brings me into confusion.

Looking from the percentage, ESTJs are only 8% from the total population, the same amount with the population of ENFJs. If ESTJs are so abrasive and destructive, if many people hated us so much, then why society wants more of ESTJs? If ESTJs are mean and bullying, why ESTJs commonly found in leadership and management positions, which means that other people see them as the right person for those positions? I mean, why do you choose a bossy/bullying person as your leader if you don't even like him/her?

I've been thinking of some possibilities why so many members dislike us, while in the same time they admit that society want more people like us:

1. They don't get us, or
2. They rub us in the wrong way, or
3. They don't like themselves, or
4. They are jealous with us.

ESTJs, what are your opinions about that? Do you think/feel that people around you hate you? If so, why do you think they hate you?

Personally, I don't have enemy IRL. If anyone hate me IRL, then they must've been covering it all this time, because I don't know any. If my INFP boss dislike me, it's so weird that he chose me as editor in chief for his division.

 

[KrystRay]

I don't really pay attention to whether or not people like me IRL. I've got too much going on. If I do find out that someone dislikes me, its because they accidently say something to one of my many friends and word gets back to me. I generally have no idea who they're talking about because I see people that I don't know as trees. Yeah, they exist, but I don't really pay much attention to them. Online, however, I do recognize that a lot of the different types don't like us. Again, I really don't care because I know that I have a lot to offer society without the support of an online community... And I do it well.

I appreciate honest people, and I try to be as honest as I can be without being malicious. It's funny that people actually think that I exist to make their lives hell (anyone who complains about your XSTJ boss). I have so much more going on in my mind than thinking about ways to make you miserable. It's so easy to please us!
1. Do what you say you're going to do (ie. job description)
2. Be competent.
3. It's better to be silent and considered a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
4. Be respectful.

I really don't care if your opinion differs from mine- hell, I expect it where I live. It's like its my life calling to educate people, which is where unsolicited advice comes in (usually out of the workplace, unless it's work related). I've gotten much better about this as I've gotten older, but I'm not trying to offend when I give advice. I really do know a better way and I really am trying to help you!

Again, to all of you who really dislike us, A) we don't care and B) we really aren't trying to offend anyone. Just being ourselves.

 

[WickedQueen]

I also think it's weird that many members said they don't like us because we are bossy and bullying, yet we have so many good friends and best friends IRL, while they don't. I wonder if they pay attention to that too and asking themselves why...

I'm the same like you, Kryst. I don't care whether those people like me or not. I'm just confused why many online members said they dislike ESTJs, while the fact that offline, I never see or receiving such negative feelings from my surroundings because of my ESTJ characteristics. I also have 2 ESTJ friends. They are awesome, kind, popular, and everybody likes them. So I'm confused because the informations I get online is not match with the informations I get offline.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

Yeah.
You don't ask types just like you for advice on what other types think of you.
All you get is confirmation of your own typological biases.

People don't like you because.
1. You're bossy.
2. You don't give a hot fuck about their feelings.
3. You think you're right all the time.

What's not to like.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

I also think it's weird that many members said they don't like us because we are bossy and bullying, yet we have so many good friends and best friends IRL, while they don't. I wonder if they pay attention to that too and asking themselves why...

I'm the same like you, Kryst. I don't care whether those people like me or not. I'm just confused why many online members said they dislike ESTJs, while the fact that offline, I never see or receiving such negative feelings from my surroundings because of my ESTJ characteristics. I also have 2 ESTJ friends. They are awesome, kind, popular, and everybody likes them. So I'm confused because the informations I get online is not match with the informations I get offline.

People lie.
Often.
People will like you as a friend because you are useful to have as a friend.
That's what friendships are mutual arrangements of using each other.

 

[Miss Scarlet]

Well, you can be verbally outspoken and hurt people unknowingly. But at the same time, you guys get stuff done, and keep things together running smoothly like some sort of awesome people glue. I think a lot of people admire that ability that you have! Most people just watch the problem and wait around passively for someone to do something, not you guys. You, guys keep your promises and get stuff back on track. So I think that's part of it. All types have good and bad things though.

 

[WickedQueen]

Yeah.
You don't ask types just like you for advice on what other types think of you.
All you get is confirmation of your own typological biases.

People don't like you because.
1. You're bossy.
2. You don't give a hot fuck about their feelings.
3. You think you're right all the time.

What's not to like.

People lie.
Often.
People will like you as a friend because you are useful to have as a friend.
That's what friendships are mutual arrangements of using each other.

This is a perfect example. ESTJs, can you see what I'm talking about now?

 

[Drea]

Well, I for one am often astounded about all the SJ hate, but I just want to point out that you guys are always pointing out how you don't care about people. That's pretty offputting for most NFs, you're very progress-oriented which could be off-putting for SPs, and I dunno about NTs. I have an ESTJ dad who I generally get along with, untill we get in to an argument, of course.
It's just the generallized SJ hate which is confusing. @[email protected] ISTJs are pretty much just working in the backround, being generally unoffensive, ISFJs are kind and caring, ESFJs are fun and intelligent, and ESTJs get the job done. ^^

 

[alice35]

My ESTJ is the love of my life. Yet, we are so different. It comes down that we basically want the same things in life.
Some great traits:
very dedicated and loyal to his work and hardworking, never misses a day
extremely good with efficiency and organising
good at improving things and systems
tidy and neat, attractive
great taste in clothing and appearance
a fighter, doesn't give up
kind and hospitable
organizes not for his own goodwill but for benefit of others as well
not a show off, at heart quite shy

sometimes:
speaks before thinking things through
can come off as abrasive
not sensitive to others feelings
not seeing the consequences of his actions
can twist the truth
moody and irritable
too much time spend in his hobbies
not in tune with others

 

[KrystRay]

My ESTJ is the love of my life. Yet, we are so different. It comes down that we basically want the same things in life.
Some great traits:
very dedicated and loyal to his work and hardworking, never misses a day
extremely good with efficiency and organising
good at improving things and systems
tidy and neat, attractive
great taste in clothing and appearance
a fighter, doesn't give up
kind and hospitable
organizes not for his own goodwill but for benefit of others as well
not a show off, at heart quite shy

sometimes:
speaks before thinking things through
can come off as abrasive
not sensitive to others feelings
not seeing the consequences of his actions
can twist the truth
moody and irritable
too much time spend in his hobbies
not in tune with others

Don't take offense to the sometimes stuff. We think out loud very often- its the E. If we are close to you, you can point out that we are being abrasive and we will reconsider how we are speaking. We do care about other people's feelings, because if you are hurt or in need of something, we will be the first people to help you. We just don't often take time to sit and coddle you to hear about your hurt feelings. If we do something wrong, and you tell us, we are generally preceptive.

We generally aren't liars. We will let you believe what you want to believe if it is in our best interest- lying by omission, if you will, but we will not outwardly tell bold faced lies.

It is only under extreme pressure that we will do things without thinking about the consequences of our actions. I am constantly checking myself to ensure that my decisions set me up for my future, based on my and other's past experiences.

And it's not that we don't care about other people's feelings- we just don't care to sit around and hear about them. If you just want to talk, talk to another feeler. You want to change something, talk to us.

 

[WickedQueen]

you guys get stuff done, and keep things together running smoothly like some sort of awesome people glue.

Well, our life is not always about work and career. We love people too. We love meeting new friends and are good at maintaining good relationship with people. I still hangout often with my friends from kindergarten, elementary school, high school, university, and also with my ex-colleagues from my previous job.

My INFP boss hate some of our clients. He said they are fake, rude, and disrespecting him. There were times where my boss and my clients clashed in heavy arguments. So he was surprised when he saw me having good relationship with them and have no complain about them. He was more surprised when those clients some times having private conversations with me (like telling me some of their secrets, etc). We even watch movies and hangout together few times. He didn't understand how can I do that.

I think because ESTJs don't care about what others think about us, we are freely express ourselves and comfortable to be ourselves for what we are. We might be blunt, but we are honest. And we treat others the same like we treat ourselves: accept them for what they are. That make others feel comfortable around us, so they begin to like and accept us for what we are. This create positive cycle in relationship. So it's no wonder that ESTJs are often have many friends in real life.

Of course, this might not work for every ESTJs. There are some unhealthy ESTJs out there. I'm lucky enough that they and I have not met yet.

 

[alice35]

Don't take offense to the sometimes stuff. We think out loud very often- its the E. If we are close to you, you can point out that we are being abrasive and we will reconsider how we are speaking. We do care about other people's feelings, because if you are hurt or in need of something, we will be the first people to help you. We just don't often take time to sit and coddle you to hear about your hurt feelings. If we do something wrong, and you tell us, we are generally preceptive.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, all the above makes sense. Yet, one thng which puzzles me though is that when I am hurt by something insensitive he will not apologize, even when he clearly broke the rules so to speak. So that sometimes makes me wonder if he does care about the way I feel.

We generally aren't liars. We will let you believe what you want to believe if it is in our best interest- lying by omission, if you will, but we will not outwardly tell bold faced lies.

Very true the way you describe it.[/I

It is only under extreme pressure that we will do things without thinking about the consequences of our actions. I am constantly checking myself to ensure that my decisions set me up for my future, based on my and other's past experiences.

Yes, I notice this all the time. When he has made an error in judgement he will change course for the better.[/B]

And it's not that we don't care about other people's feelings- we just don't care to sit around and hear about them. If you just want to talk, talk to another feeler. You want to change something, talk to us.


Well, that is a tough one for me. I do not need to speak feeling my way but would like to be acknowledged the way i am wired as well. When I ask him to change some things which we cannot solve well, it gets cut off sometimes and no discussion is possible. I know and respect the way he is but indeed getting him to sit down and talk is a tough one and he gets defensive.

 

[WickedQueen]

Well, I for one am often astounded about all the SJ hate, but I just want to point out that you guys are always pointing out how you don't care about people. That's pretty offputting for most NFs, you're very progress-oriented which could be off-putting for SPs, and I dunno about NTs. I have an ESTJ dad who I generally get along with, untill we get in to an argument, of course.

LOL. It's not that we don't care about people. We do care about people, or else you won't see us daring to take the responsibility as leaders in many organizations/companies or having so many friends. Why do you think ESTJs are called the Guardians?

One thing about ESTJs is we are very confident people. We know ourselves. So when someone said something negative about us, we will think about it objectively. Is the negative things are true? If yes, instead of taking it offensively, we will try hard to fix it and improve ourselves. But if the negative things aren't true, we don't take it personally and often ignore it. We don't try to find affirmation or approval from others, because we know exactly who we are and what we want. We don't depend on others opinion to feel confident about ourselves.

We are progress oriented because we don't like wasting our time for no result. We want to know that we have used our time for something worthy, something better. If there are no certainty about the positive result, we won't waste our time to even start it.

 

[KrystRay]

Well, that is a tough one for me. I do not need to speak feeling my way but would like to be acknowledged the way i am wired as well. When I ask him to change some things which we cannot solve well, it gets cut off sometimes and no discussion is possible. I know and respect the way he is but indeed getting him to sit down and talk is a tough one and he gets defensive.

Have him read a book called Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. It made a huge difference in my life and how I related to people.

 

[teddy564339]

I actually think there's a lot going on here, and it's a very complex topic.


First of all, I think part of the whole thing is falling into what I call the "type trap", since I've developed a bad habit of it. And that is the trap of thinking that all people of one type are the same. It's possible that some people on the forum had one, or maybe two, really bad experiences with ESTJ's. Because the experience was so bad, they immediately cringe when they see those four letters. So, when they see someone who's an ESTJ, they automatically think of only the people they had a problem with, and assume the new ESTJ is exactly the same. There might even be some self-fulfilling prophecy going on...they may latch onto all of the similarities and ignore the differences.


Here's where I think this is particularly strong with SJ's, especially ESTJ's. I've mentioned this theory in other threads...and that is the theory that because S's outnumber N's so much, it's very likely that an N with will have an S for a parent (or both) or at least a teacher or boss. Since SP's are more easygoing and go-with-the-flow, they're not as likely to stifle the N...but SJ's probably do, with their large focus on structure, organization and rules. Yes, those things are important, but they're more important to an SJ than the N types.

This is especially true for an STJ parent to an NF, I would imagine. If the parent doesn't nurture the child in the right way, then I'm sure there will be a deep resentment.


That's part of the reason why I think there's so much animosity from other types to SJ's.


And this also relates to the question of why people say they hate ESTJ's but society says they want more of them. I think it's because the ESTJ way probably gets things done better and more efficiently than most types, but that doesn't make it pleasant. You may do more work when your boss is around, but that doesn't mean you like it. So I think a lot of people might deep down admit that they need an ESTJ to get the most work done....but that doesn't mean they're not going to go hang out in a bar on Friday and talk about how much of a jackass their boss is. And maybe PerC is the bar of choice for a lot of people on here. I think they may view ESTJ's as a "necessary evil".


And to be honest, I think a lot of this is an N thing. I can't help but think that PerC is an escape for a lot of N's. Because they're so outnumbered in society, and because S's have so much trouble understanding them, I think they congregate here to be with their kind, to escape all of their frustrations. I think when that happens, it's natural for them to bond by saying how much trouble they have with S's, and like I said, SJ's in particular.

So I think I've gotten better at not taking things said on here too personally. I think S's, and particularly SJ',s tend to take things literally, and SFJ's probably take them personally. If nothing else N types may just be blowing off steam. I can definitely relate to having a need for that.


Of course, that doesn't mean that they can't be convinced that S's, or SJ's, or ESTJ's or anyone else, don't have to be bad or don't have to conflict with them. To me that's part of the beauty of this site, being able to actually learn about other types. But, as I've also learned, sometimes you just have to live with friction.


I know it's just the Fe in me coming out, but my hope is always that threads like this help people to learn and understand each other. Maybe ESTJ's can learn how others view them from a different perspective, and other types can understand and remember not everyone of the same type is the same.

 

[WickedQueen]

Yet, one thng which puzzles me though is that when I am hurt by something insensitive he will not apologize, even when he clearly broke the rules so to speak. So that sometimes makes me wonder if he does care about the way I feel.[/B][/I]

ESTJ won't apologize just for the sake of validating someone's feelings. ESTJ will apologize when the fact said we are wrong.

My mom is ESFP. One day, she cooked me a chicken soup. I ate the soup and said that it taste salty and I didin't like it. My mom got hurt because she felt that I didn't appreciate her effort to cook the soup for me. She wanted me to apologize for hurting her feelings. But I thought that I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't mean to belittling her effort, but I was being honest when I said the soup was salty and I dislike it. I don't want to apologize for something that I don't do wrong.

Can you see the pattern here? My mom wanted me to apologize to make her feelings validated. I refused to apologized because I didn't think that I said anything wrong. I didn't mean to unappreciated her. I was just being honest about the soup. To say that I apologize, for me, is like saying that I was wrong about the soup. I refused, because I wasn't wrong about the soup. It was salty and tasted bad.

We both were wrong, though. I should clarify that I didn't mean to unappreciated her effort and that I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. And my mom should understand that I was just being honest about the soup and that she shouldn't take it personally.

Well, that is a tough one for me. I do not need to speak feeling my way but would like to be acknowledged the way i am wired as well. When I ask him to change some things which we cannot solve well, it gets cut off sometimes and no discussion is possible. I know and respect the way he is but indeed getting him to sit down and talk is a tough one and he gets defensive.

I don't understand. I think it depends on what things that you two are talking about.

 

[alice35]

[B]ESTJ won't apologize just for the sake of validating someone's feelings. ESTJ will apologize when the fact said we are wrong.[/B]

MMMmm..I have a real hard time with this. Of course it is all subjective. Let me ask you a question. When you say to someone for example: you are fat. Will you then only apologize when the facts tell that the person is not fat? What about if the person is indeed fat? Would you then not apologize because you consider it a true fact? If the fat person is hurt by your comment would you not apologize to have hurt a feeling as that person has a problem with being overweight? mmmmm...
ps for your info, I am not fat lol

 

[alice35]

Wickedqueen, but I do understand what you are trying to say about the soup. It makes sense logically of course.

But how about if I came to dinner at your place and you made me soup. And then I would tell the same to you as you did to your mother. That it tastes salty and bad and that I don't like it.
How would you react to that internally?

 

[WickedQueen]

[B]ESTJ won't apologize just for the sake of validating someone's feelings. ESTJ will apologize when the fact said we are wrong.[/B]

MMMmm..I have a real hard time with this. Of course it is all subjective. Let me ask you a question. When you say to someone for example: you are fat. Will you then only apologize when the facts tell that the person is not fat? What about if the person is indeed fat? Would you then not apologize because you consider it a true fact? If the fat person is hurt by your comment would you not apologize to have hurt a feeling as that person has a problem with being overweight? mmmmm...
ps for your info, I am not fat lol

Well if he's fat, I won't apologize. If he's not fat, I will apologize. If the fat person's feeling was hurt, then it's his/her problem with dealing with reality. It's not my problem. I say it just like it is.

But I won't say things like : "Hey, you're fat!" out of nowhere for no reason, LOL. Especially if the person is sensitive with his/her weight. I'm not that cruel. I will only say he's fat when he ask me : "Am I fat?".

Wickedqueen, but I do understand what you are trying to say about the soup. It makes sense logically of course.

But how about if I came to dinner at your place and you made me soup. And then I would tell the same to you as you did to your mother. That it tastes salty and bad and that I don't like it.
How would you react to that internally?

LOL. I would probably laugh and said: "I don't care if it taste bad. I made it all day and you have to eat it up anyway or else I'll kill you."

 

[alice35]

LOL

I wouldn't tell you anyway that it was bad even when you asked me, saves you time to clean up and polish your rifles :laughing: