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Hello!

I wanted to ask you guys... anyone who has had experience with this pairing, whether first-hand or second-hand (whether you yourself have been involved in one, or someone you know has), to provide me input/insights regarding this pair? (Can be either an ENTJ or an INTJ with an ESTJ.)

I'd like to know more about the dynamic, viability, anecdotal experiences, potentiality, the way the relationship usually manifests, etc. Oh, and what are the needs of an ESTJ in a relationship, and how ESTJs view NTJs, especially in a romantic context.

Many questions, maybe some of those you can answer!

I am aware of existing topics on the topic but there are not enough to quench my curiosity, haha.

Thank you.:)
 

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I get along really well with ENTJs. But I have a very strong Fi so I tend to get along with most types regardless-- especially NFs actually lol. But what I would say is, with any TJ/TJ pair, things are tough in terms of both are going to approach things from their own logical point of view therefore, there is always the need for logical consistency in the framework of how each individual processes and that can be tough in a romantic sense if the logic clashes (which with Te + Ti it can be a huge clash!). Depends really on how easy going the individuals are.

My one INTJ friend who is interested in me drives me f'ing nuts! His logic makes no sense to me like having to do everything HIS WAY (Ti after all), but I don't ever make a big deal about it; however I know I would NEVER date him because of that. As a friend, I can deal with it, but as a partner F NO.

On the other hand, I have another INTJ, who is super easy-going. He just doesn't comment on things that he has no knowledge on. And I trust him and his consistency in that. He won't ever love in the way that I'd want to be loved, it will be very practical, but he'd make a good partner because he's so easy-going.

As far as ENTJs, I like them. But I can see they're super duper freaking logic based and sometimes are so short-sighted in terms of feeling. They are so black and white, it's too much. I also find they get offended easily and need to relentlessly defend themselves and will be extremely harsh just for the sake of being righteous-- I don't find that appealing at all. I can't imagine myself ever dating an ENTJ.

I guess overall what I'm saying is, I'd rather be with a feeler, that's JUST ME though. I can see the appeal of the T/T combo, but at the moment I'm just really into NFs.

I have no idea if this is helpful at all or just a bunch of random data, but hopefully you can at least take away something from it. :)
 

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I am an INTJ and I had an ESTJ best friend for a year.What I can say is:

You can make great conversations related to common interests with ESTJs.
They are not very energy-draining (despite being extroverts)
They are usually very honest/confident/know what they want which is something that I appreciate.
ESTJs tend to be so insensitive that I actually feel like a feeler when I am with them.Not sure if that's good or bad.
+They don't like too much unneeded smalltalk.
But
They really don't give a flying fuck about analyzing anything which makes my Ni feel rejected lmao.
They tend to be quite close minded and dogmatic about important stuff.
They are usually overly confident about their opinions
They are extroverts.

Conclusion:You can have great conversations (based on TJ) and can spend a lot of time with them without feeling very drained.But I don't think that ESTJs will ever actually understand an INTJ.They have a completely different way of functioning and that works against the relationship. They are good for casual friends but not for close relationships.
 

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I get along really well with ENTJs. But I have a very strong Fi so I tend to get along with most types regardless-- especially NFs actually lol. But what I would say is, with any TJ/TJ pair, things are tough in terms of both are going to approach things from their own logical point of view therefore, there is always the need for logical consistency in the framework of how each individual processes and that can be tough in a romantic sense if the logic clashes (which with Te + Ti it can be a huge clash!). Depends really on how easy going the individuals are.

My one INTJ friend who is interested in me drives me f'ing nuts! His logic makes no sense to me like having to do everything HIS WAY (Ti after all), but I don't ever make a big deal about it; however I know I would NEVER date him because of that. As a friend, I can deal with it, but as a partner F NO.

On the other hand, I have another INTJ, who is super easy-going. He just doesn't comment on things that he has no knowledge on. And I trust him and his consistency in that. He won't ever love in the way that I'd want to be loved, it will be very practical, but he'd make a good partner because he's so easy-going.

As far as ENTJs, I like them. But I can see they're super duper freaking logic based and sometimes are so short-sighted in terms of feeling. They are so black and white, it's too much. I also find they get offended easily and need to relentlessly defend themselves and will be extremely harsh just for the sake of being righteous-- I don't find that appealing at all. I can't imagine myself ever dating an ENTJ.

I guess overall what I'm saying is, I'd rather be with a feeler, that's JUST ME though. I can see the appeal of the T/T combo, but at the moment I'm just really into NFs.

I have no idea if this is helpful at all or just a bunch of random data, but hopefully you can at least take away something from it. :)
I think you are confused (or I am with what you say), xNTJs have Te not Ti.
 

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Hello!

I wanted to ask you guys... anyone who has had experience with this pairing, whether first-hand or second-hand (whether you yourself have been involved in one, or someone you know has), to provide me input/insights regarding this pair? (Can be either an ENTJ or an INTJ with an ESTJ.)

I'd like to know more about the dynamic, viability, anecdotal experiences, potentiality, the way the relationship usually manifests, etc. Oh, and what are the needs of an ESTJ in a relationship, and how ESTJs view NTJs, especially in a romantic context.

Many questions, maybe some of those you can answer!

I am aware of existing topics on the topic but there are not enough to quench my curiosity, haha.

Thank you.:)
I have many friends who are INTJs. I can't tell obviously because they're all different.(at least in my opinion)
Some of them I get along very well and have very similar perspective view, but others are unlike.(our thought are so different)
I used to have an argument with one of them. (That I think because of she and I are both confident in own opinions thinking oneself always right.)
One thing I know for sure is they're not talking much about their private matter(which I decided it might be sensitive topics and they don't like me get in to their private area.)
By the way, I like to go ask for their opinion before doing something even they're often misjudge and jump to conclusions.
Sometimes I think they're more sensitive than me and suddenly lack of logical reasoning skill when they're in susceptible situation.
Otherwise, the other INTJ's mind is so unstable, she changes her mind from black to white so quickly. I don't know exactly what she's thinking. So I agreed with @Davidkal that we're not really good for close relationships.
 

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I think INTxs likes to run from me, ENTx will sort of like me debate when we see, one use to do it all the time on twitter, these days however..... I am beginning to think they like avoiding me. I had an ENTJ acquaintance he's new. neglected to get back to him for 2 days and now there's not much communications. the INTJs I have known likes avoiding me or more recently. One said thank you when I sent him a message. There's a INTJ I think who use to be my math teacher who well honestly doesn't like me, I think he tries to avoid me. I use to know some INTJs when I was younger and talk to them but after not talking to them or removing them now they don't want to talk to me.

I think one of the INTJs I know made weird comments I just couldn't understand and didn't like. He was also involved in a disability community I didn't like. I am part of it too but he's really in to it. I don't actually know though he seems in to it and not in to it all at once.

I like NTS but I find that I don't get their thinking. I like theory, it interests me, I don't think I get it though. just because you like it doesn't mean you get it. It fascinates me more then anything. I think my math professor got tired of me when I asked him everything, a lot! I asked him everything to spell out all the theories.
 
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Here is my conclusion about differences between ENTJ and ESTJ in relationship:

ENJT
- Sometimes enjoys leading from behind the screen (as puppet master)
-
'silently strong', they are more observant and listens more.
- Have less number of squad because they like sometime alone to think.
- dominates but less forcefully. Their strength comes in form of quiet stubbornness
- nice to talk to about any subject. Likes listening, inquiring, and rethinking. Appreciates new knowledge that may challenge his believes.
- Doesn't care about what other people think about him. If he thinks what he does is right, that's all that matter to him.
- will make excellent father. Demanding but supportive.
- creative and open-minded in bed, but not as forceful as ESTJ

ESTJ
- like to be visibly in-charge (all ESTx do like this). They want to be recognized as the leader.
- Talks a bit more or louder and bullies more
- likes having a lot of people around him all the time.
- dominates more forcefully.
- nice to talk to about his particular subject of interest which maybe only 3 or 4 subjects. Not easy to invite to be interested in something new.
- Cares about what people think about him. Usually needs recognition more than ENTJs do.
- can't nurture as good as ENTJ does.
- has higher energy in bed compared to ENTJ.

ESTJs know that ENTJs are smarter. But they won't cave in (see point. no.1 about ESTJ)
If you are a female INTJ dealing with ESTJ male: Just let him take charge. I am sure you know how to get your way while letting him believe that it is his way.
No need to challenge his opinions. You know you are right and you should know better than to try to explain something he can't grasp.
Your patience will be rewarded well in bed.
To satisfy your intellectual need: join book clubs, continue your study.
 

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I'd like to know more about the dynamic, viability, anecdotal experiences, potentiality, the way the relationship usually manifests, etc. Oh, and what are the needs of an ESTJ in a relationship, and how ESTJs view NTJs, especially in a romantic context.
It's considered to be one of the more difficult relationship types in socionics, called supervision (that is if both of you are typed correctly). You can read more about it from these links:

http://personalitycafe.com/estj-articles/283-love-types-estj-3.html#post2423173
http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/412-intj-relationships-10.html#post3846707
 

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ESTJ
- like to be visibly in-charge (all ESTx do like this). They want to be recognized as the leader.
- Talks a bit more or louder and bullies more
- likes having a lot of people around him all the time.
- dominates more forcefully.
- nice to talk to about his particular subject of interest which maybe only 3 or 4 subjects. Not easy to invite to be interested in something new.
- Cares about what people think about him. Usually needs recognition more than ENTJs do.
- can't nurture as good as ENTJ does.
- has higher energy in bed compared to ENTJ.

ESTJs know that ENTJs are smarter. But they won't cave in (see point. no.1 about ESTJ)
If you are a female INTJ dealing with ESTJ male: Just let him take charge. I am sure you know how to get your way while letting him believe that it is his way.
No need to challenge his opinions. You know you are right and you should know better than to try to explain something he can't grasp.
Your patience will be rewarded well in bed.
To satisfy your intellectual need: join book clubs, continue your study.
If it was so easy... ;) But some good sex in exchange for living a life subject to a person considerably less intelligent than you seems to me a big price to pay. Not to mention that xNTJs aren't the best people to play games, we are more straightforward, although given our strategic competence we can understand games and plan winning strategies.

Basically I agree with your analysis, but not the recommendation at the end. I used to have a crush on an ESTJ - ESTJs can be incredibly charming. But they can also be horrible jerks. Of course every type can be a jerk. But whereas INTJs/ ENTJs can normally be convinced by rational arguments, in ESTJs' case that's improbable. Their convictions are so strong, they can't be changed even if there is evidence they are dysfunctional and a far better alternative is given. They are just unable to learn new things, they stick to what they know.

And there's a lot of "with me or against me" thinking.

ESTJs are attractive since self-confidence is attractive. Not to mention many, especially women, find dominance attractive. The popularity of "60 Shares of Grey" wasn't without a reason... But in the long run a relationship with an ESTJ would be a torture and even an amazing sex wouldn't compensate it.
 

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If it was so easy... ;) But some good sex in exchange for living a life subject to a person considerably less intelligent than you seems to me a big price to pay. Not to mention that xNTJs aren't the best people to play games, we are more straightforward, although given our strategic competence we can understand games and plan winning strategies.

Basically I agree with your analysis, but not the recommendation at the end. I used to have a crush on an ESTJ - ESTJs can be incredibly charming. But they can also be horrible jerks. Of course every type can be a jerk. But whereas INTJs/ ENTJs can normally be convinced by rational arguments, in ESTJs' case that's improbable. Their convictions are so strong, they can't be changed even if there is evidence they are dysfunctional and a far better alternative is given. They are just unable to learn new things, they stick to what they know.

And there's a lot of "with me or against me" thinking.

ESTJs are attractive since self-confidence is attractive. Not to mention many, especially women, find dominance attractive. The popularity of "60 Shares of Grey" wasn't without a reason... But in the long run a relationship with an ESTJ would be a torture and even an amazing sex wouldn't compensate it.
Oh...
You use the adverb "considerably"...
I am not suggesting anyone to have sex with anyone _considerably_ less intelligent.
_Considerably_ less intelligent people are (pardon me) disgusting. They are (pardon me) the untouchables.

I am not suggesting anyone to come near anyone who is borderline imbecile. ESTJs aren't dumb. They just don't have intellectual interests as widely diverse as xNTJs do. And they are usually good at their "one" craft because they usually are dedicated to what they do and seriously want to do it well. And they are responsible, reliable, dependable, good leader, hardworking, good with money, calculative, basically qualities that make a man a man.

When your partner is good in bed, you can fulfill your other needs from your other 1000 friends and it is alright. (Maybe this rule applies to ENTJs who usually have more friends than INTJs do).
But if your partner is only good for your intellectual need, trying to fulfill sexual need from just "one" other friend can definitely be problematical.

I personally prefer the 'laser focus' of a male INTJ.
When they are focusing their masculine energy on something, you can feel it. And it feels good.
. I also like their independence and self-assurance and strength of mind. And perhaps because I am already very busy, I like one who is a little bit more serene than I am. (I have never met a female INTJ, therefore I don't know much about them).

But if someone happens to be attracted to an ESTJ, who of course is more physical than an ENTJ, that's alright too. There is a way to still have fun with him if he isn't too possessive. I don't think ESTJ will try to be a jerk toward an ENTJ. The ones around me never bother me. I think they know that an ENTJ can easily and won't hesitate to put them down if need be. They may have witnessed few incidents and they know enough to not even try. INTJs perhaps would keep some of their thoughts to themselves, so perhaps some ESTJs might still feel safe to be jerks around one.

Those are probably why we have different level of acceptance toward ESTJs.
 

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_Considerably_ less intelligent people are (pardon me) disgusting. They are (pardon me) the untouchables.

I am not suggesting anyone to come near anyone who is borderline imbecile. ESTJs aren't dumb.
I don't normally type people. I think it's not possible to type most people we meet correctly anyway. Our behavior has to do with situational factors as much as with our "types".

Only if I meet people who are simply poster children of some type I start to think of them as this type.

In my case, I've met one person, who I would describe as an ESTJ. All ESTJ descriptions I found refer to him 100%. It's simply amazing how good he fits. I describe my adventures with him here: http://personalitycafe.com/estj-forum-guardians/1224010-estj-intj-conflict-dynamics.html

I went through a few threads on the differences ENTJs vs. ESTJs and basically everything people wrote about when describing ESTJs referred to "my ESTJ".

I remember someone writing that if you go against an ESTJ they first won't believe it :) In my case, "my ESTJ" still doesn't believe I go against him :) He told me so directly. He thinks my boss influences me and makes me fight against him. Although I've always been very straightforward in criticising him and I'm more confrontational towards him than my boss is. And although I told him openly, I don't accept his behavior and will do everything I can, including escalations to his boss and boss' boss, for him to start behaving normally.

He still believes it's my boss' decision, not mine. Not sure whether it's because I'm a woman or what. He's been behaving like the biggest asshole towards me but when I start doing the same thing, in his opinion it's not my decision to behave like this.

I just can't believe how anybody can be so extremely naive.

I also remember one person describing her ESTJ ex as a person who would set silly, unjustified rules to their daughter and make plenty of fuss about it, e.g. she was forbidden to eat at her desk. This is true in case of "my" ESTJ. He doesn't have the skill to see the big picture, would focus on some tiny procedural thing and there's no way in hell for you to make him see the situation in a context. For him only this small procedural detail exists.

I just can imagine how any *NT* would fancy a person like this.
 

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I feel like ESTJs are socially more tactful than NTJs. I've been embarrassed by NTJs on several occasions. For the life of me, I can't tell if they do it on purpose, or if they just don't care.

ENTJs are fine. They're typically dependable and trustworthy. I find INTJs to be a lot more moody, temperamental and irrational. I once had an INTJ tell me that I'm wrong because I didn't like a movie she likes and she made a huge deal about it. She also tried to convince me that Fifty shades of grey is a love story so her judgment is questionable, and I won't judge all INTJs by that standard.

Would I date an NTJ? Absolutely, if I were attracted to him/her. I'm typically more attracted to Sensors than Intuitives on average, but that is to be expected. Surprisingly, I have a better opinion of NFJs when compared to their counterparts, but I believe this is because I've had better experiences with them.

Also, @TheTraveller7 it would be foolish of you to assume that I'm "considerably" less intelligent than you are when you know nothing about me aside from my four letter code. Some sensing types are quite intelligent. If you open your eyes and look around, you may realize that.
 

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Let me state it again:ESTJs aren’t dumb. They just happen to have different preferences from non-ESTJs.

There are varying degrees of preference. I happen to havenever met an ESTJ who are extremely S. May be because my environment happens tohave filtered out for me the extremely S ones, the ESTJs I know (or pay attention to) happen to be the ones who aren’t that severely S.

Because ESTJ usually can identify fewer ways to get to what they want (to solve problems or to avoid something or get something), they are less capable (and hence, less willling) to deal with deviations. Therefore they become more risk-averse compared to xNTJs. And that’s why they are less flexible.

I don’t understand this part about him saying that it's your boss’s decision and therefore what? So, why is this a problem?
He still believes it's my boss' decision, not mine. Not sure whether it's because I'm a woman or what. He's been behaving like the biggest asshole towards me but when I start doing the same thing, in his opinion it's not my decision to behave like this.
I always 'scan' people. Before I knew MBTI, I would scan for their talents/skills and their motivations so that I know 'what' to utilize from them and 'how' to utilize them, for our _mutual_ benefits.

ESTJs who have proven to be good functioning leaders and have experiences in working through a lot of people areawesome.The extremely S ones aren’t bearable regardless ofwhether they are ESTJ or any other xSxx. But remember, the ones who only live in their mind and can’t see reality are also unbearable. And it is worse if they don’t like being social. Humans who live in their mind only and are anti-social don’t sound like a healthy human being, do they?
 

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Let me state it again:ESTJs aren’t dumb. They just happen to have different preferences from non-ESTJs.

I don’t understand this part about him saying that it's your boss’s decision and therefore what? So, why is this a problem?
I just googled intelligence and the first definition was:

"the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills".

Acc to this meaning: yes, there are types which are more and those which are less intelligent. And strong ESTJs belong to the later. Because they aren't good in "acquiring new knowledge". They tend to be intellectually conservative, dismiss anything that doesn't correspond to what they already believe in.

I think the meaning of me stating he doesn't believe me to take decisions was obvious.

He doesn't seem to understand the world around him. Instead of integrating new knowledge with what he already knows, he dismisses it. And yes it has everything to do with the definition of intelligence quoted above.

Or he's just a sexist who sees women as subjected to males. The meaning of that in terms of intelligence would be exactly the same.

People who dismiss empirical knowledge despite much evidence aren't normally very smart.

It's my last post in this thread. I just don't see the point.
 

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Hmm, I've over the years learned to limit some of my more impulsive statements, I think it's possible for NTJs to be likeable without alienating people if they really pay attention.

I find that I dream big and the ESTJ I'm dating doesn't always grasp the concepts I'm on about, even if it could benefit him long-term. We communicate well but sometimes he's too short/rational in what he says which comes off as passive aggressive... I on the other hand will always factor in lots of things to formulate a response and use smileys, signs of emotional expression etc. I'm not always sure what he's feeling so I'll just assume it isn't the perfect match even though we get on well because we're both rational and like some of the same things.

I think the biggest issue for me and ESTJ is my need for emotional/intellectual recognition. Whereas his framework seems dominated by past encounters with fun girls which makes him appear less open to something fresh. (This is just one guy though.)

I feel like ESTJs are socially more tactful than NTJs. I've been embarrassed by NTJs on several occasions. For the life of me, I can't tell if they do it on purpose, or if they just don't care.

ENTJs are fine. They're typically dependable and trustworthy. I find INTJs to be a lot more moody, temperamental and irrational. I once had an INTJ tell me that I'm wrong because I didn't like a movie she likes and she made a huge deal about it. She also tried to convince me that Fifty shades of grey is a love story so her judgment is questionable, and I won't judge all INTJs by that standard.

Would I date an NTJ? Absolutely, if I were attracted to him/her. I'm typically more attracted to Sensors than Intuitives on average, but that is to be expected. Surprisingly, I have a better opinion of NFJs when compared to their counterparts, but I believe this is because I've had better experiences with them.

Also, @TheTraveller7 it would be foolish of you to assume that I'm "considerably" less intelligent than you are when you know nothing about me aside from my four letter code. Some sensing types are quite intelligent. If you open your eyes and look around, you may realize that.
 

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Hmm, I've over the years learned to limit some of my more impulsive statements, I think it's possible for NTJs to be likeable without alienating people if they really pay attention.

I find that I dream big and the ESTJ I'm dating doesn't always grasp the concepts I'm on about, even if it could benefit him long-term. We communicate well but sometimes he's too short/rational in what he says which comes off as passive aggressive... I on the other hand will always factor in lots of things to formulate a response and use smileys, signs of emotional expression etc. I'm not always sure what he's feeling so I'll just assume it isn't the perfect match even though we get on well because we're both rational and like some of the same things.

I think the biggest issue for me and ESTJ is my need for emotional/intellectual recognition. Whereas his framework seems dominated by past encounters with fun girls which makes him appear less open to something fresh. (This is just one guy though.)
Then date someone else.
 

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Then date someone else.
I like to keep my options open. Love of my life, probably not, I'm good with that, he's clever so I don't feel the need to part ways.

I don't mean to appear overly critical of ESTJs. I sometimes do not see what's in front of me because I'm zoned out so it's quite nice to get that S perspective.
 

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It was a rather weird, hilariously ludicrous relation to be honest. One minute we are exchanging laugh(s) - the next we are at each other(s) throats - myself, particularily on the verge of popping a blood vessel, and I think him in some disturbing way getting a kick out being an impossible to reason with humanoid - (very, very rare a specimen frustrates me to this degree), and him completely purposefully or simply inherented incapable of grasping what was occuring before his very eyeballs. Perhap(s) the only specimen that managed to pissed me off by stupidity. "Strategic," and paradoxically dumb as a box of rocks. Static, arrogant with his big Si-ness, impossible to talk with constructively, willfully ignorant - reluctant to investigate/consider anything [outside] his past experiences, full of himself, and very rarely do I talk so negatively about a single specimen.

According to his "past experiences," - nothing but the past experiences - and only the past experiences he was convinced I wanted to sleep with him/in love with him (not remotely close to his distorted reality... the second half, anyhow), and, indeed, to his mind, this confirmed the reason that as to why I were always at his throat so much, and whatever "past experience". Anything new/factual, et al, to contradict his past-experiences of something, was twisted and distorted to fit the past experience, therefore, demonstrate why (X)-experience was more correct.

Claimed I was controlling him - and turn many of exchange(s) into a strange love/hate thing, and turning disagreements into a game - (the 'enemy' that actually 'loved him'), although that was far from true and willfully in denial if I did not agree with his opinion(s) on something, according to his superior past experiences, of course. He would fall into this pit of extreme resistance if I were to countered any of his "superior past experiences/knowledge," with a demonstrable fact or brought his claims into question. Once claimed I should get my money back for going to college, because whatever college taught, was all incorrect [as it contradicted] his experiences. "Sorry, Cat, but my experiences told me that what I say is true/fact/otherwise, and that's my opinion and that's final." Ahaha. Indeed, it is in my nature to challenge any specimen like that, from laughs to throats and back. I do not mind specimen(s) that like to intellectually - or otherwise rumble, but this kind of specimen was throwing rocks from outside the ring, and declaring himself the winner.

As I expressed earlier, though - the ESTJ humanoid made a good workout/healthy lifestyle partner. Self-care, exercise, getting things done, liking to fuck and exaggerated self-sufficienty/independence was the only thing(s) we had in common. Relationship is questionable, if not highly improbable - but I am not an irrational in any prejudice. I have no similar issue(s) from any other type. ESTJ has made me comtemplate between slitting my own windpipe and theirs on multiple occassion(s).
 

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Catwalk I agree with the past experience stuff it drives me mad. But I think ESTJ is capable of being quite mature if your ideas fit their framework. There's no emotional messing around, it's quite easy to figure out what they want because they're either around or they're not. Honesty, sticking to plans are wonderful qualities of the ESTJ. I think mature Ts are quite aware that they need to work on the emotional thing so they might know how to turn on the charm and make a conscious effort.

But I wouldn't call them strategic, this is my big struggling point - someone very clever, yet unwilling to grasp big, big concepts - and to me this feels very personal because when an ENTJ is strategising for you that's massive, I'm going all in, you better pay attention because I am helping you and it will work long-term. This is where I feel that I'm better paired up with SP or N.
 
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