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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, so, I was reading over ESTPs in various places, and ran across the relationship pages about SPs and NFs.

Basically, it said the two are totally incompatible -- that SPs, especially ESTP, search for competition and in-the-present oriented pleasures, which completely falls opposite to the NF's desire for harmony and the search for potential.

Ok, so I can live with that, right?

But then, just out of curiosity about exactly what type of relationship the two have, I checked the ESTP and INFP relationship according to Socionics:

And therein lies the rub.

Apparently, according to Socionics, ESTP and INFP have a relationship of duality (which is the really good one).

So I'm like... wtf?

Which one is it?
Do INFP and ESTP get along? Or are we really grating on each other's nerves like some places say we do? :confused:
 

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The Doer King
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Well the short version is I get along with every healthy INFP I've ever met. Dated one.
 

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The Socionics page also says that INFP's and INFJ's are incompatible, so I took what that page said with a grain of salt.

From observing and interacting with an ESTP friend (as well as considering the general ESTP profile), they're really fun people to be around and to truly live and experience the ultimate "S-oriented experiences" with. That being said, the primary interests of the ESTP and INFP seem to be polar opposites, which is, of course, a huge issue; I would be worried that the place in which both types want to go in a relationship would pull each other apart. Perhaps the ESTP is one of the greatest friends for an INFP, but only that (in general).

As friends, both types can learn a lot from one another, but in an intimate relationship, such appreciation might fade over time as goals branch apart. The ESTP friend I spoke of has directly told me that he idolizes me, and in a way I reciprocate that sentiment (although I haven't told him). I do wish at times that I could be less serious about life and just enjoy it as he does. It's funny; in a way, both types are thrown off by the polarity of the other (one might encounter the other and think, "People like that actually exist!?") yet enormously respect the differences.
 

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The Doer King
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How did that go?
It was amazing until she moved away. Then she became distant (and I don't mean the distance in miles between us). Her way of dealing with it was not dealing with it and she tried to act like nothing was different.
 

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You guys seem to be forgetting the fact that socionics types and MBTI types do not necessarily correlate.

To find out your socionics type, you have to read a bunch of socionics descriptions by different authors and decide which sociotype you relate the most to.

There are socionics tests out there, but it's widely thought that the test is not as accurate as observations and descriptions of the functions and overall behavior, most importantly relationships with others. This is in contrast to MBTI where you cant type someone unless they take a test. The reason is that, while MBTI focuses on defining individuals' personality characteristics, the focus of socionics is how you relate to people and how people relate to you.

For example, I am an MBTI INFJ, but a socionics INFp (the little p indicates socionics notation). The difference is crucial because the dual of a socionics INFj (which would be ESTj) would be my conflictor--BAD combo. I've worked with some ESTj's and it's not pleasant at all, really revolting and irritating actually. Whereas, working with an ESTp = heaven.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You guys seem to be forgetting the fact that socionics types and MBTI types do not necessarily correlate.

To find out your socionics type, you have to read a bunch of socionics descriptions by different authors and decide which sociotype you relate the most to.

There are socionics tests out there, but it's widely thought that the test is not as accurate as observations and descriptions of the functions and overall behavior, most importantly relationships with others. This is in contrast to MBTI where you cant type someone unless they take a test. The reason is that, while MBTI focuses on defining individuals' personality characteristics, the focus of socionics is how you relate to people and how people relate to you.

For example, I am an MBTI INFJ, but a socionics INFp (the little p indicates socionics notation). The difference is crucial because the dual of a socionics INFj (which would be ESTj) would be my conflictor--BAD combo. I've worked with some ESTj's and it's not pleasant at all, really revolting and irritating actually. Whereas, working with an ESTp = heaven.
I'm an INFp. I already checked it.

And as long as ESTp relates to ESTP in MBTI, then I'm fine :shocked:
 

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From observing and interacting with an ESTP friend (as well as considering the general ESTP profile), they're really fun people to be around and to truly live and experience the ultimate "S-oriented experiences" with. That being said, the primary interests of the ESTP and INFP seem to be polar opposites, which is, of course, a huge issue; I would be worried that the place in which both types want to go in a relationship would pull each other apart. Perhaps the ESTP is one of the greatest friends for an INFP, but only that (in general).

As friends, both types can learn a lot from one another, but in an intimate relationship, such appreciation might fade over time as goals branch apart. The ESTP friend I spoke of has directly told me that he idolizes me, and in a way I reciprocate that sentiment (although I haven't told him). I do wish at times that I could be less serious about life and just enjoy it as he does. It's funny; in a way, both types are thrown off by the polarity of the other (one might encounter the other and think, "People like that actually exist!?") yet enormously respect the differences.
I agree with this. I sometimes click quickly with ESTPs. We can have a lot of fun. When they get to know me, it surprises me how much they will respect my opinion (I'm not just the artsy book nerd after all, haha).

However, long term goals, perspectives, and even interest/activities, can seriously diverge. I'd see a long term relationship hard to maintain. Better stick to friends....but there's exceptions for everything. I'd never rule any one out based solely on type (that would be dumb).

For me, the biggest issue with ESTPs is their pliable morality (or total lack thereof), their hedonism, and their disloyalty. I'm sure many are not like that, but some have left a bad taste in my mouth and left me wary. I also look for someone more intellectual and stabilizing for a long term relationship (ie. ENFJ). I think ESTPs with me just equal a lot of chaos and impetuousness, which is not a good foundation for a relationship.
 

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I'm an INFp. I already checked it.

And as long as ESTp relates to ESTP in MBTI, then I'm fine :shocked:

OK, so you feel that Ni as defined by socionics is your primary conscious function? ( Introverted intuition - Wikisocion )
And Fe is your auxiliary?
( Extroverted ethics - Wikisocion )

If so, you probably ARE INFp.


Or, do you feel Fi is your primary conscioius function?
( Introverted ethics - Wikisocion )
And Ne is your auxiliary?
( Extroverted intuition - Wikisocion )

If so, you're INFj. Of note, MBTI INFP primary/auxiliary functions are Fi Ne (though defined slightly differently). So if you're INFP in MBTI, more than likely you will be socionics INFj, but not necessarily. However to understand your relationship with ESTPs this difference, like I said, is very important (dual vs conflictor).
 

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I'm an insanely competitive ESTP... So couple me with an INFP that really wants harmony and peace and I bet I can drive them nuts. However, if they are really laid back and don't let things get to them, I don't think I'd bother them at all. I've had more problems with INFJs than INFPs. :tongue:
 

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I agree with this. I sometimes click quickly with ESTPs. We can have a lot of fun. When they get to know me, it surprises me how much they will respect my opinion (I'm not just the artsy book nerd after all, haha).

However, long term goals, perspectives, and even interest/activities, can seriously diverge. I'd see a long term relationship hard to maintain. Better stick to friends....but there's exceptions for everything. I'd never rule any one out based solely on type (that would be dumb).

For me, the biggest issue with ESTPs is their pliable morality (or total lack thereof), their hedonism, and their disloyalty. I'm sure many are not like that, but some have left a bad taste in my mouth and left me wary. I also look for someone more intellectual and stabilizing for a long term relationship (ie. ENFJ). I think ESTPs with me just equal a lot of chaos and impetuousness, which is not a good foundation for a relationship.
I hear what you guys are saying. I do. And i've felt the same downsides of ESTp's. The difference is, I admire them for the characteristics these "flaws" embody (i.e. absolute social genius, total living in the external environment). I dont see them as hedonistic at all. They just LOVE people and want to connect with everyone, and do so without inhibition. I'm jealous of that quality. And I love someone who can shake things up a bit. Stability can get boring. INFp and ESTp are an IRRATIONAL pair. (that's what the p means)

The fact that you in particular, OrangeApple, are seeing things in the perspective of morality and hedonism, says to me that you are a socionics INFj. Also the fact that you are looking for a more rational (little j) and delta quadra type of person (stabilizing). BTW, beware ENFj is beta quadra. I have tons of ENFj friends and they are anything but stabilizing. They are ENTHUSIASTIC, VOCAL makers of change. Beta quadra (ENFj, INFp, ESTp, and ISTj) are all about chaos (which you expressed you dont like). You seem to be delta quadra (makers of stability).

What you are looking for OrangeApple is an ESTj--very intellectual and a beacon of stability. And most likely your dual. BTW ESTp's can be pretty darned intellectual (Ti is their auxiliary function). As an INFj you will not really recognize that underneath all that stuff you dont like about them. Just like I dont recognize a lot of the good things ESTj's bring to the table underneath all the things i just can't stand about them. Also of note, conflictors admire each other from a distance. Which explains you clicking with them, but can't see them as more than just friends.

Zygomorphic, the fact that you and the ESTp idolize each other does suggest that you are INFp and that you may be duals. Yes the interests, the leisure activities, and the groups of friends diverge. That is what happens with duals--the same, but different in this awesome, intriguing way that seems to present a barrier at first. If you guys are interested in getting to know each other, you shouldn't let the barrier stand in your way. Dont' worry relationships with duals grow stronger with time, they dont fall apart because of the things you are mentioning.

Don't get me wrong, dual relationships may still fall apart, but it will be for reasons of differences in maturity level, current relationship goals (i.e. he still wants to play, you are looking for a husband--though you may cause him to change his goals), religious or cultural barriers, professional barriers.
 

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I think ESTP and INFP can get on well if they both work hard towards the relationship....the main problem is communication. The infps will think the estps don't care enough about them, but since infps tend to keep their feelings to themselves , how would the estps know what the infps want?? and other the other hand estps would think the infps don't like them enough because infps don't usually show their affections passionate enough and might appear a bit cold at times........ *sigh*
 

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The Doer King
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I think I answered this in the other threads enough.
 

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...I think Enneagram can really factor into things too.... remember MBTI is just who you are, Enneagram is how you cope.
 
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I hear what you guys are saying. I do. And i've felt the same downsides of ESTp's. The difference is, I admire them for the characteristics these "flaws" embody (i.e. absolute social genius, total living in the external environment). I dont see them as hedonistic at all. They just LOVE people and want to connect with everyone, and do so without inhibition. I'm jealous of that quality. And I love someone who can shake things up a bit. Stability can get boring. INFp and ESTp are an IRRATIONAL pair. (that's what the p means)

The fact that you in particular, OrangeApple, are seeing things in the perspective of morality and hedonism, says to me that you are a socionics INFj. Also the fact that you are looking for a more rational (little j) and delta quadra type of person (stabilizing). BTW, beware ENFj is beta quadra. I have tons of ENFj friends and they are anything but stabilizing. They are ENTHUSIASTIC, VOCAL makers of change. Beta quadra (ENFj, INFp, ESTp, and ISTj) are all about chaos (which you expressed you dont like). You seem to be delta quadra (makers of stability).

What you are looking for OrangeApple is an ESTj--very intellectual and a beacon of stability. And most likely your dual. BTW ESTp's can be pretty darned intellectual (Ti is their auxiliary function). As an INFj you will not really recognize that underneath all that stuff you dont like about them. Just like I dont recognize a lot of the good things ESTj's bring to the table underneath all the things i just can't stand about them. Also of note, conflictors admire each other from a distance. Which explains you clicking with them, but can't see them as more than just friends.
(It's OrangeAppled - the d is important :tongue: )

Yeaaah, I am not a socionics fan.... and I test INFp in Socionics and relate to that profile, although I don't like any of the socionics profiles as much as MBTI. They just don't click for me. MBTI "ideal" matches make more sense for me (ENFJ & ENTJ usually are paired with INFP, and sometimes ESFJ).

When I refer to ESTPs being hedonistic, I do not mean connecting easily with people and being socially charming. That's exactly what I like about ENFJs. I mean, some ESTPs will put pleasure and fun over everything to the point of being completely irresponsible and immoral. I've met far too many who were meathead types, so I feel justified in being suspicious of their intellectual tendencies....although I do know a certain kind that I like quite a bit, but I'd still have concerns for the long term. Pliable morals to me is someone who has little moral backbone and will justify dishonest things because it suits their purpose - I'm just not down with that.

ENFJs often have nobler ideas and pursuits, and being Ns they tend to be more cerebral than physical. Much more attractive to me. I also love that ENFJs are very warm and sentimental for men...ESTPs can seem warm because they are outgoing, but they aren't as compassionate as I'd like. I never said I was looking for someone more "rational" either....just someone who has more external organization. I am very chaotic on my own (and I revel in it), but adding to that makes for problems (nothing ever gets done). I need someone who can complement my chaos without totally stifling it. ENFJs seem able to plan and organize and accomplish while still having a spontaneous side.

I am not a fan of ESTJs beyond casual interaction. ISTJs are nice for friends and that is it. I am just not attracted to them romantically. I feel like they would stifle me and my instinct is always to RUN when they want to be more than friends. I don't find them intellectual in the way I prefer either, which is in a more passionate, creative way. I always lose them in conversation when I get abstract, and I need someone who grasps that part of me. I might consider an SFJ, but they'd need to be one who is not too "rigid" also.

I very much like ENFJs and have a great dynamic with my (many) ENFJ male friends. I think you misunderstand my idea of "stabilizing". I mean that I want someone who complements my disorganized, unstructured and lazy side, not someone who feeds it. The fact that ENFJs are enthusiastic, vocal and promote change is just what I like. I like the motivation and initiative they provide without being stifling. I think I'd fade into the walls with an STJ and die an early death.
 

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Dang! You stab that knife in deep and turn it! :tongue: I'm kidding.

I know I have a cold side at times. For the most part I am compassionate... Hence wanting to go into counseling as a career. The only time I'm not compassionate is when someone is so stubborn and makes a million excuses. Heh, and both the guys I'm thinking of as I type that are NTJs.

I am a pretty moral and ethical person... I'm probably a bit more cautious of things because of my best friend and my mom. In the past, I have been completely irresponsible with my just out for a good time attitude. However, I haven't been that was since I was 25. Some time after I turned 25 I just started to slow down.

And most of the time I'm being warm... I'm not just seeming that way. I really am a warm person. :happy:
 

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(It's OrangeAppled - the d is important :tongue: )

Yeaaah, I am not a socionics fan.... and I test INFp in Socionics and relate to that profile, although I don't like any of the socionics profiles as much as MBTI. They just don't click for me. MBTI "ideal" matches make more sense for me (ENFJ & ENTJ usually are paired with INFP, and sometimes ESFJ).

When I refer to ESTPs being hedonistic, I do not mean connecting easily with people and being socially charming. That's exactly what I like about ENFJs. I mean, some ESTPs will put pleasure and fun over everything to the point of being completely irresponsible and immoral. I've met far too many who were meathead types, so I feel justified in being suspicious of their intellectual tendencies....although I do know a certain kind that I like quite a bit, but I'd still have concerns for the long term. Pliable morals to me is someone who has little moral backbone and will justify dishonest things because it suits their purpose - I'm just not down with that.

ENFJs often have nobler ideas and pursuits, and being Ns they tend to be more cerebral than physical. Much more attractive to me. I also love that ENFJs are very warm and sentimental for men...ESTPs can seem warm because they are outgoing, but they aren't as compassionate as I'd like. I never said I was looking for someone more "rational" either....just someone who has more external organization. I am very chaotic on my own (and I revel in it), but adding to that makes for problems (nothing ever gets done). I need someone who can complement my chaos without totally stifling it. ENFJs seem able to plan and organize and accomplish while still having a spontaneous side.

I am not a fan of ESTJs beyond casual interaction. ISTJs are nice for friends and that is it. I am just not attracted to them romantically. I feel like they would stifle me and my instinct is always to RUN when they want to be more than friends. I don't find them intellectual in the way I prefer either, which is in a more passionate, creative way. I always lose them in conversation when I get abstract, and I need someone who grasps that part of me. I might consider an SFJ, but they'd need to be one who is not too "rigid" also.

I very much like ENFJs and have a great dynamic with my (many) ENFJ male friends. I think you misunderstand my idea of "stabilizing". I mean that I want someone who complements my disorganized, unstructured and lazy side, not someone who feeds it. The fact that ENFJs are enthusiastic, vocal and promote change is just what I like. I like the motivation and initiative they provide without being stifling. I think I'd fade into the walls with an STJ and die an early death.

Socionics typing should not rely on the test--the test can be pretty inaccurate. Did you also read the INFj descriptions? because seriously, a lot of what you said above sounds VERY INFj (even down to the OrangeAppled correction--sorry bout that mistake btw:tongue:). Maybe you will relate to that description even more. The difference can be somewhat subtle (INFp and INFj are quasi-identicals). Also, if you guys are basing your opinions on socionics.com descriptions, I can see why you aren't a big fan of socionics. Those aren't the best descriptions. Check out www.wikisocion.com. Also descriptions by Filatova and by Stratisyevskaya I've found to be pretty good.

My point was not that ESTp's aren't hedonistic or immoral at times, of course they can be! Socionics looks at one's "values," i.e. what is important to you, in relating with others and with the world in general. So my point is, the first and foremost flaws you mentioned (and thus seem to care about the most) are the hedonism and immorality. Which is very MBTI INFP and very socionics INFj.

In relating to others, INFp's care more about ethics (Ni Fe--understanding behavior/relationships based on patterns over time and focusing on influencing the way people emote between each other), hence Lyricist. And so do ESTp's (those are their dual seeking functions), so ESTp will be relating to everyone they can with their Se talents (whether moral or immoral), and an INFp will admire them highly for it. Practically that means, the life of the party, flirting with every member of the opposite sex just to relate (obviously both of those can have an immoral consequence, but INFp will focus more on what that represents as far as ESTp's ability to relate to others).

In contrast, in relating to others, INFj care more about morals (Fi Ne--understanding people's inner feelings and focusing on bringing people's inner selves closer to ideals), hence Idealist.

Now this is not to say that INFp's aren't moral or that INFj's aren't ethical. I consider myself a moral person and it's nice when someone I relate to is a moral person, but if not, I dont particularly care THAT much as long as they are ethical to everyone around them. Now if they are unethical, well that that is a BIG problem for me as a socionics INFp.

The other thing you should look at in determining your socionics type is, what do you value in a hypothetical soul mate. Are you more impressed by Se (someone who has presence, argues for you, takes action, and wants you to take action) or Te (someone who works efficiently & neatly and wants you to do the same, and has brilliant ideas and is knowledgeable)? Is it Ti (do you prefer someone who helps you systematize your thinking) or Si (do you get stressed and prefer someone who helps you relax)?

If you prefer Se Ti in the soul mate -- INFp

If you prefer Te Si in the soul mate -- INFj.

ENFj's are great people I agree:wink:. Never attracted to them romantically though. Love love love them as friends!



p.s. duals dont necessarily like each other at first:wink:. The extrovert usually wont notice the introvert, and the introvert usually thinks the extrovert is too different (either better or worse). You have to have the opportunity to interact together closely for a while to really recognize each other.
 

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Socionics is a bit complicated to understand initially, but I find it much more accurate in describing and helping me understand interpersonal relationships. MBTI does not emphasize this and should not be used for that purpose.

But you're right, MBTI is much better than socionics at describing individuals' own character and motivations.

I am all about understanding relationships between people, so I <3 socionics.
 
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