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Discussion Starter #1
Hi!

I'm relatively new to MBTI and have a couple of questions regarding the difference between ESTPs and ISTPs.

ESTP dominant function is Se and my dominant function is Ti. But are these really different between the two? And if so could you give me a couple of examples of how so.

I learned to ride a bike by myself when I was a kid and when I do stuff with Se my Ti stops and I go into some kind of flow.

I have a co-worker who is ESTP and I can really see the difference that he is much more extraverted in his Fe and that I have better Ni.

But aren't the real difference between us our tertiary and inferior functions?

We're both kind of fearless, like motorcycles, like to test other people (but I'm more subtle in my testing).
 

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For me, a big difference is dominant perceiver (ESTP: Se Ti) vs. dominant judger (ISTP: Ti Se). In my experience, dominant perceivers (especially extraverted dominant perceivers) are more likely to say things off the cuff and seem more opinionated than an ISTP. The ESTP relies more on their perception, and judging or decision making (Ti or Fe) comes second. The ISTP relies more on their logic, and since it's very introverted logic, they'll wait until they have more information via Se or Ni before saying something they haven't thought much about. They at least try not to make assumptions, whereas assumptions sometimes helps an ESTP think (so it seems).

For instance, someone mentioned to my ESTP friend (who seems like a very introverted ESTP) and me that they take sleep medication almost on a daily basis. Immediately, my ESTP friend goes: "If you have to take sleep medication on a daily basis, something is really wrong." Who knows what his premise was, but his Se had all the information it needed to in order to make that judgment. For me, I needed more info. What kind of sleep medication was it? Was it really mild, over-the-counter? If it was a generally harmless drug, who cares if they take it every day?

Anyways, bottom line, I think STPs are both pretty laid back, tolerant personality types. But I think ESTPs jump the gun a little with their Se perceptions sometimes, and then later on go back and edit those perceptions if needed. ISTPs will strive to resist any blanket perceptions, since it conflicts with Ti's need to apply rationale and logic.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you.

Yes, he jumps the gun and I think before and if I should jump the gun unless someone startles me and then they get a surprise :)

But Se outputs data to be processed by Ti?

So I prefer to get little data and to process that a lot with Ti and Ni and he prefers a lot of stimulus and to process a little bit of it with Ti?

Could you say ESTP makes up their lack of Ni with using Se much more?
 

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So I prefer to get little data and to process that a lot with Ti and he prefers a lot of stimulus and to process a little bit of it with Ti?
Hm... for me, Ti works off of what I already have, and I'll seek for more information via Se and Ni as I need it, or as Ti runs out of information to process. I would imagine for an ESTP, they don't generally seek more information, as they already have an abundance of information, but they need more time to make sense of it via Ti and Fe. So the limiting factor to IxTPs is information, and the limiting factor on ExTPs is the time and/or ability to make sense of it all. An analogy being, a computer with a monster CPU hooked up to a slow internet pipeline (IxTP), vs a slow CPU hooked up to a monster internet pipeline (ExTP).
 

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Thank you!!

And the lack of new information for a lazy ISTP would probably lead to a Ti-Ni loop when the Ni is somewhat developed?
Not the lack of new information, but the rejection of new external information. Almost all my Ni information, in some form or another, came from previous Se information. But Ni information is still new information too.
 

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Could you explain this more? Rejection? As in you think that all the new information is wrong and that you start to doubt?

I think I had a Ti-Ni loop caused by very close manipulative people on my weak Fe.
I think it could stem from several different motivations. I've heard some theories suggesting people rely on their tertiary function as relief -- since their third function is the same orientation as their dominant, it may be preferred to the opposite oriented second function in some situations or points in time. Using a perception function that aligns with the orientation of your judging function (or vice versa) may feel like it is using less resources. So, in my experience, whenever I'm feeling very drained, I may rely on Ti + Ni to conserve energy. It sounds like this might have been the case in your example. You felt very drained from being manipulated, and resorted to a function that felt less taxing. But sometimes, Ni is simply just the more appropriate function to use in a given situation.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Yes, so when you need to conserve energy you isolate++ yourself by using only Ti+Ni, but if you do this too long you become unbalanced and need some Se or maybe Fe and for an ISTP the Ti+Ni mode doesn't automatically go to using Se unless consciously moving there?

Sorry for the thousand questions btw :)
 

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Yes, so when you need to conserve energy you isolate++ yourself by using only Ti+Ni, but if you do this too long you become unbalanced and need some Se or maybe Fe and for an ISTP the Ti+Ni mode doesn't automatically go to using Se unless consciously moving there?

Sorry for the thousand questions btw :)
Well, don't know if this aligns to any theory, but in my personal experience, some conscious effort seems to be needed. If I stay stuck in Ti + Ni too long, I feel detached, unfulfilled, not present, and not whole. But just switching on Se is easier said than done.
 

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By switching on Se is easier said than done, do you mean that it's sometimes hard to know what to go out and do?

I loved Karate until I felt I understood everything and then I wanted to try something else. Now I bought a Motorcycle but each new thing usually involves a lot of thinking before I do them unless I force myself to just do it without thinking.

Maybe that's the key to just jump into new things without thinking so much? Maybe more feeling?
 

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Maybe not so much more feeling, but just the lack of thinking. Se is about experiencing and doing, but if Ti rationalizes away why it doesn't make sense to go out one day, then yeah, that's going to suppress Se.
 

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Well, don't know if this aligns to any theory, but in my personal experience, some conscious effort seems to be needed. If I stay stuck in Ti + Ni too long, I feel detached, unfulfilled, not present, and not whole. But just switching on Se is easier said than done.
I wonder how much of that's just jungian Ti in severe dissociation state. I mean the Ni part, I'm sure some of it's also present but most of it just seems Ti. It would be logical too, Ti being a much stronger function. As far as my understanding goes about the Ti+Ni loop so far. But if it's mainly Ti then logically also it follows that it stems from inferior Fe issues.


Maybe not so much more feeling, but just the lack of thinking. Se is about experiencing and doing, but if Ti rationalizes away why it doesn't make sense to go out one day, then yeah, that's going to suppress Se.
I find for me the way to engage Se is to think a bit longer term and have goals for which I can activate Se. Some of these goals are still pretty immediate things but that on its own no longer seems to satisfy me. When I was younger, before I turned 18, they did satisfy me more. Now what satisfies me more is if enough of these short term goals link together inside the framework of some longer term goal(s).
 

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So, someone was linking me to this thread because of me seeming more ESTP than the average ISTP. I do know I'm between the two somehow. I still type as Ti-dom, though as 1) I do still seem to filter data through Ti first before going to Se 2) Fe seems less compatible with my dominant function than Ni, meaning it's further below in the "function stack". That, or I learned Ni too well somehow if that's even possible :shrug


Also, I heard this comparison recently, it may be useful to others:

"The difference between Ti-Se and Se-Ti, is imagine you're a skateboarder (disclosure, I know nothing about skateboarding, but it doesn't matter to the overly simplified analogy) standing at the top of a huge quarter pipe getting ready to start a run.

Se-Ti: you stand at the top and you think that you want to Trick A, B and C. You use the information that you gathered and look at the skate park and you use what you see to decide when and where to do Tricks A, B and C.

Ti-Se: you stand at the top and you look at the layout. Using what you see, you think about what tricks are possible and come up with Tricks A, B and C."


(By @flyincaveman)

Here I relate to the Ti-Se version very much, btw.



I learned to ride a bike by myself when I was a kid and when I do stuff with Se my Ti stops and I go into some kind of flow.
I experience the same.


For me, a big difference is dominant perceiver (ESTP: Se Ti) vs. dominant judger (ISTP: Ti Se). In my experience, dominant perceivers (especially extraverted dominant perceivers) are more likely to say things off the cuff and seem more opinionated than an ISTP.
I'm quite opinionated and can easily put them forward in real life too when I get in the mood to join interaction with people. But that isn't my default mode, it's my secondary mode. Most of my judgments stay inside, stay "silent".


The ESTP relies more on their perception, and judging or decision making (Ti or Fe) comes second. The ISTP relies more on their logic, and since it's very introverted logic, they'll wait until they have more information via Se or Ni before saying something they haven't thought much about. They at least try not to make assumptions, whereas assumptions sometimes helps an ESTP think (so it seems).
Good comparison. Also, that's a good observation about assumptions, I definitely relate to the ISTP here, I really try to avoid certain kinds of assumptions. I may not be aware of all of them, though.


For instance, someone mentioned to my ESTP friend (who seems like a very introverted ESTP) and me that they take sleep medication almost on a daily basis. Immediately, my ESTP friend goes: "If you have to take sleep medication on a daily basis, something is really wrong." Who knows what his premise was, but his Se had all the information it needed to in order to make that judgment. For me, I needed more info. What kind of sleep medication was it? Was it really mild, over-the-counter? If it was a generally harmless drug, who cares if they take it every day?
On the surface I actually would side with the ESTP here because I already looked up a lot on this topic. Though, I would modify it a bit, it doesn't have to be "very" wrong, just definitely an issue somewhere. It's up to the person if they want to stick with this solution, depending on the circumstances.


Anyways, bottom line, I think STPs are both pretty laid back, tolerant personality types. But I think ESTPs jump the gun a little with their Se perceptions sometimes, and then later on go back and edit those perceptions if needed. ISTPs will strive to resist any blanket perceptions, since it conflicts with Ti's need to apply rationale and logic.
I actually relate to ESTP here more a lot of the time. At other times, I will stay silent, not say or think anything right away and it will take time to form a thorough opinion. Don't know what this depends on.


Hm... for me, Ti works off of what I already have, and I'll seek for more information via Se and Ni as I need it, or as Ti runs out of information to process. I would imagine for an ESTP, they don't generally seek more information, as they already have an abundance of information, but they need more time to make sense of it via Ti and Fe. So the limiting factor to IxTPs is information, and the limiting factor on ExTPs is the time and/or ability to make sense of it all. An analogy being, a computer with a monster CPU hooked up to a slow internet pipeline (IxTP), vs a slow CPU hooked up to a monster internet pipeline (ExTP).
I'm between the two types here. I somehow seem to have both modes and I switch between them.

But I'll go into details on the "ESTP" mode. When I'm in the mode of not analysing the incoming data, I don't actually feel I truly fully processed and absorbed it. So hm, may not be ESTP after all.


I think it could stem from several different motivations. I've heard some theories suggesting people rely on their tertiary function as relief -- since their third function is the same orientation as their dominant, it may be preferred to the opposite oriented second function in some situations or points in time. Using a perception function that aligns with the orientation of your judging function (or vice versa) may feel like it is using less resources. So, in my experience, whenever I'm feeling very drained, I may rely on Ti + Ni to conserve energy. It sounds like this might have been the case in your example. You felt very drained from being manipulated, and resorted to a function that felt less taxing. But sometimes, Ni is simply just the more appropriate function to use in a given situation.
If I'm drained I just sit and look around passively or stare outside to nothingness. For some reason, Ti+Ni mode to me is less energy conserving than that. But that sitting and/or staring to that nonexistent external point really recharge me.
 

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I'm relatively new to MBTI and have a couple of questions regarding the difference between ESTPs and ISTPs.

ESTP dominant function is Se and my dominant function is Ti. But are these really different between the two? And if so could you give me a couple of examples of how so.
For me the ESTP vs ISTP is much about timing: ESTP sees something, gets an idea, and promotes it to everyone else. If you go clubbing with an ESTP you might thus easly find yourself waking up in another country. ISTPs don't go head first to things in the same way - as an ISTP I always need to analyze the idea presented first, find the pros and cons and come to a conclusion whether it is worthwhile. ESTP then sees that I am not immediately excited about the idea (while still thinking), decides I'm not interested and drops the issue. When I come to my conclusion the ESTP is already doing something else.
 
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