[ZC Carbon]

ESTPs project a certain intelligence. Is this intelligence in the form of Common Sense?

If yes, please elaborate and I'll try to keep up.

If this is a waste of time I will leave just as quietly.

 

[Functianalyst]

ESTPs project a certain intelligence. Is this intelligence in the form of Common Sense?
If yes, please elaborate and I'll try to keep up.
If this is a waste of time I will leave just as quietly.

There was a discussion on this at INTJf several weeks ago, where INTJs provided examples of how their lack of common sense came into play. I shared these comments from Wikipedia:

Common sense, based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" as their common natural understanding.

-And-

Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people already have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have. However this is not the common dictionary definition. The most common meaning to the phrase is good sense and sound judgement in practical matters. It has nothing to do with what other people may think or feel.

These definitions give an indication that common sense first requires a consensus by a reasonable person, in any given community, of what would be considered common understanding. Introverting functions are first and foremost focused on the “Self”, so will be oblivious to external sources. This would limit the use of common sense to the four extraverting functions however the definitions above seem to be an anti-thema of someone using Ne since that function makes every effort to repress any thing that would disallow their need for creativity or budding possibilities. That leaves only three functions (Te,Fe,Se).
As for it being form of intelligence, it could be but intelligence does not come into play with type, only temperament.

 

[CallSignOWL]

i dunno if you guys have much common sense...the stories I hear from my ESTP are just beyond my poor ISTJ comprehension!! I could never do the things he did!! :crazy:

OWL

 

[Adrenaline]

That has more to do with our extraverted sensing in comparison with your introverted sensing.

 

[Functianalyst]

Agreed. Common sense, like anything is relative. I don't think that too many people will have more common sense than STJs.

 

[njchick]

ESTPs project a certain intelligence. Is this intelligence in the form of Common Sense?

If yes, please elaborate and I'll try to keep up.

If this is a waste of time I will leave just as quietly.

I think you are describing our sense of awareness, we take in a lot at once.

 

[Adrenaline]

ALOT:shocked:

 

[elvis2010]

ZC Carbon

Ten years ago, I started investing, and everything seemed overpriced in the market. I then found one sector, the nursing home sector. that was badly beaten. Congress cut reimbursement to the nursing homes, and almost all of the big companies went under.

So they fixed it. Congress passed a law raising rates by 20%. That may not sound like much, but if your cost for caring for someone was $95, and you were getting $100. That is a $5 profit. With the increase, you would get $120, which is a $25 profit, and a 500% increase. The potential was there for the nursing home stocks to soar.

To me, this was as good as buying treasury bills because you had the federal government backing up payment. Amazingly, even after Congress passed the law, the stocks languished.

I wanted to know why, and I met a CEO of a nursing home company and when I told him that his profits could go up five fold with the rate increase. His response, and I will never forget this, was, "I don't do projections." I wanted to ask, "Well, what do you do then?"

A nursing home Vice President of another company (and obvious J) scolded me and got pissed when I told him about the increase. He actually yelled at me and said, "Congress NEVER raises the rates." months after they already had.

The stocks that I bought did as I expected, but I was amazed at how many people I told about this, showed them the numbers, and how many, even super intelligent people, blew me off. Most wouldn't even look at the numbers.

Even today, when people ask what my biggest position is, I say Venezuelan bonds, and they say, "Isn't that where that crazy Hugo Chavez is?" They get scared because of media reports on Chavez (and he is a meglomaniac) and once more, don't look at the numbers.

The market odds are 50-50 Venezeula is going to default on its debt (and I think that is way high.) However, even if you take those odds, that does not mean you shouldn't bet. In casino terms, what would happen if you played roulette and there was no green, only red and black. If you put down a dollar and lose, the house takes your buck and gives you back seventy cents. On the other hand if you bet and win, the house gives you five bucks. Do you play the game??

Well, most people don't, but they have no problem going to Vegas and stupidly playing the real roulette wheel where the odds are stacked against them.

I am not sure that is common sense. Maybe you could say we ESTPs have uncommon sense.

 

[Derosa90]

A lot has to do with how we take in the environment. Everything just hits us at once and it doesn't really phase us, we just react. For instance - when I was jogging on the sidewalk earlier, there was a couple walking on the same sidewalk and walking the opposite direction towards me. Now I could've stopped and waited for them to pass by and then keep jogging, but I wanted to keep going. Well the only way to keep moving and not stop was to jump over a bench that was blocking my way of getting off the sidewalk. In a moments notice, I hopped the bench and kept going. I looked back and the couple were flabbergasted that I did it, lol. Even though this is a simple example, it proves how much extroverted sensing helps. We look around and see how we can improvise. And in more complicated situations, we use past experiences to help with them and then build on it with whatever is around us.

 

[Adrenaline]

Hoo-Haa how about some leap frog?

 

[dagnytaggart]

Agreed. Common sense, like anything is relative. I don't think that too many people will have more common sense than STJs.

Expand that to SJs in general. They all love to bitch about how everyone lacks common sense, not that this proves that they have much of their own.

Anyway, I see "common sense" (as in step-by-step logic using tangible items/approaches) as a Sensor domain.

Common sense is only common because Sensors are. ESTPs' primary function is S, same with ISTJs. So of course they'd have the market on common sense.

I mean, duh. Common sense, right?

 

[CallSignOWL]

i suppose...

but one of the stories that my ESTP told was about how he turned himself in after hitting a parked car (aka he called the cops on himself after he bent a fender of a parked car because he was tipsy) I mean, I'm really glad he has that much integrity--but calling the cops on yourself?! HAHAHA, everyone looked at him like he was an idiot!

or how he didn't want to go to the health center after falling down the stairs and breaking his hand, because it was late, he was tired and didn't want to get busted for underage drinking...

you ESTPs seem to have some of the funniest stories! I love listening to him,but its mind boggling. I just could NEVER do some of the stuff he does...seriously :mellow:

OWL

 

[Functianalyst]

Anyway, I see "common sense" (as in step-by-step logic using tangible items/approaches) as a Sensor domain.

Disagree. Si and Ni are linear and use a step-by-step understanding. Ne and Se both use an all-at-once approach. The reasons that Ni and Si types struggle to use common-sense is because they can't think outside the box.

Common sense is only common because Sensors are. ESTPs' primary function is S, same with ISTJs. So of course they'd have the market on common sense.

Disagree again. Your connotation is what INJs thought common-sense consists of. Based on the wiki definition:

Common sense, based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" as their common natural understanding. Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people already have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have. However this is not the common dictionary definition. The most common meaning to the phrase is good sense and sound judgement in practical matters.[citation needed] It has nothing to do with what other people may think or feel.

Over a month ago, this same topic came up on the INTJ forum. A couple of INTJs gave examples where their employer and physician told them to use some common sense. Here is one example, and I am not posting it to embarrass the poster, but it’s indicative of Ni users having an arduous time using common sense.

The oral surgeon who did both my kids' wisdom teeth does this. When my instructions from the doc are "don't drink water for 3 hours " it means "don't drink water for 3 hours." It doesn't mean "except for their meds." How the hell am I supposed to know how soon the stuff he gave them for surgery wears off? Do I look like an oral surgeon? But his response is, "use your common sense." My reply was, "communicate clearly -- I don't second-guess docs." He did this for another reason as well.

Well duh, the linear logic of someone using Ni and Si cannot compute this because they’re taking the instructions literally with a need for beginning, middle and end. It creates an unnecessary conundrum and precludes them from thinking outside the box. I told the poster that common sense would be to give the children just enough water to get the medication down, but do not allow them to drink full glasses of water. Common sense!

 

[elvis2010]

but one of the stories that my ESTP told was about how he turned himself in after hitting a parked car (aka he called the cops on himself after he bent a fender of a parked car because he was tipsy) I mean, I'm really glad he has that much integrity--but calling the cops on yourself?! HAHAHA, everyone looked at him like he was an idiot!

I get where you are coming from, OWL. I do. In our society today, if we admit to being human and making a mistake, that almost gives people a license for people to pummel you. So we have these bizarre situations, best shown in politics, where no one is ever wrong, it is always the other person or political party's fault.

However, let me offer up an alternate explanation. Almost all of the major religions have their version of karma. So if you do something bad to someone else and don't own up to it, something bad or worse will happen to you. So if this ESTP were not an atheist, what he did makes perfect sense to me.

In my worlds of medicine and investing, we rely on educated guesses, and that means part of being right is dependent on luck. So in my eyes, when I am asking the universe for help with luck, I want to be as spiritually pure as possible.

ESTPs are very grounded, and it kind of bugs us to see so many other types beat their chests about being right when they were more lucky than good. One investor actually called himself "God" after making the right stock call. Every positive thing in my life had an element of luck involved, and I (and I think most other ESTPs) don't forget that.

 

[CallSignOWL]

@elvis My ESTP is an Apathetic when it comes to religion. I think he just did that because he is such an honest guy :blushed:
---but its still funny!!

OWL

 

[Blue Heart]

The reasons that Ni and Si types struggle to use common-sense is because they can't think outside the box.

Ni types can't think outside of the box?? You've got to be kidding - both INFJ's and INTJ's are Ni dominant, and talk about outside of the box...I don't know if I can ever see much of anything only inside the box.

 

[Functianalyst]

Ni types can't think outside of the box?? You've got to be kidding - both INFJ's and INTJ's are Ni dominant, and talk about outside of the box...I don't know if I can ever see much of anything only inside the box.

It would make sense that Ni should be able to think outside of the box, but since Jung says of both Si and Ni that they have no ability to experience outside of the self, then they're limited in relating to any object outside the Self. However I was basing my response on Berens/Nardi's description:

Introverted Sensing (Si)/Introverted Intuiting (Ni) – Si and Ni are both more focused and involve a perception of “one thing at a time.” This gives the behavior a sequential appearance, with a sense of beginning, middle and end. With Si, the sequence is often logistical in nature and based on the past. Ni is based on a vision for the future, and the focus is on what steps to take next.

Ni aesthetically envisions outside of the box every waking hour, but will have little ability to think outside the box when presented with a problem. They're thought process is linear not holistic. This is the reason that both Ni and Si must use Te and Fe to protect this thought process which prefers the world of structure, and would be overwhelmed by Ne Se's all at once way of taking in things.

 

[MGill]

Just because wikipedia has a definition for common sense doesn't mean its right..

personally I dont think that definition makes sense, the last sentence of it sounds like the real definition. Common sense to me is knowing the most logical thing to do in any given situation.

 

[Functianalyst]

Just because wikipedia has a definition for common sense doesn't mean its right..

personally I dont think that definition makes sense, the last sentence of it sounds like the real definition. Common sense to me is knowing the most logical thing to do in any given situation.

Of course the definition does not necessarily have to be correct, just because Wiki says it. However you raise a good point to why the definition is plausible. Although I would agree with you that logic could come into play, the question would be whose logic, yours, mine, njchick's Tree's, etc....? I may personally consider the logical thing to do but it's based on my subjective perception, not necessarily a "common" agreement. Ergo for common sense to be utilized, the word it self defines what common sense would be, something where a consensus can be derived that this is the logical thing to do, or makes sense to the majority.

Lenore Thomson gives a great example of logic used by INTPs in referring to the "can opener" joke by economists. I am sure most of you have heard it in some form or fashion but it goes:

" A physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on an island, with nothing to eat. A can of soup washes ashore. The physicist says, "Let's smash the can open with a rock." The chemist says, "Let's build a fire and heat the can first." The economist says, "Let's assume that we have a can-opener..."

In some references the physicist and chemist give some over the top suggestions like setting the cans in the sun until they explode. However the economist's suggestion remains constant and is the most logical conclusion......, except the brunt of the joke is the logic is based on an assumption that there would be a can opener on a deserted island. That defies common sense no matter how logical the suggestion.

 

[dagnytaggart]

i suppose...

but one of the stories that my ESTP told was about how he turned himself in after hitting a parked car (aka he called the cops on himself after he bent a fender of a parked car because he was tipsy) I mean, I'm really glad he has that much integrity--but calling the cops on yourself?! HAHAHA, everyone looked at him like he was an idiot!

or how he didn't want to go to the health center after falling down the stairs and breaking his hand, because it was late, he was tired and didn't want to get busted for underage drinking...

you ESTPs seem to have some of the funniest stories! I love listening to him,but its mind boggling. I just could NEVER do some of the stuff he does...seriously :mellow:

OWL

:crazy:

Oh man, he'd make a TERRIBLE criminal. I mean, even I have more common sense that that, and I'm an Ne-dom!