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Ok bit of context first:

Every year there's this convention in LA called the Electronic Entertainment Expo which one could consider the "Holy
grail" of nerd kind. (new videogame releases /new tech)

And every year this sparks the "OMG, WOMEN ARE EXPLOITED" discussion, if it could be called that to begin
with.

Ever since I've been a child there's been this ongoing idea that women as a whole are only included in videogames
as "set pieces" or IF they're the "protagonist" then they're not "typical" girls / women to begin with.

What's so special about videogames that it's become a field so open for critique concerning the
same "issue" on a regular basis?

If I remember correctly no other art form ever got this much mud thrown at it on a regular basis let alone it's
creators being called out for apparent misogyny.
Ever witnessed a protest group outside a gallery/theatre? I for one never did even though I've been to openings of
works of art / plays, one could consider "controversial"

All of the "Nerds" I know were all to happy with their games and didn't even think about women being these
"Poor helpless over sexualised set pieces in need of rescue" until someone else pointed out "everything wrong" with
the game under scrutiny and how awful they were for not noticing this in the first place.
And on a side note, no women I know takes offence at being "the princess in need of rescue" in a videogame or is
disgusted by unrealistic body proportions / armour of female protagonists. (sure they poke fun at it, as do male
gamers I know at "He-man" type of lead characters but no actual #RAGE/I'm offended reactions)

Is this the issue at hand in a nutshell ?

Videogames aren't considered to be art and are thus open for critique from anyone with the ability to express their
opinion?
Or is something larger at hand here? Seeing how it's called a video GAME, people associate it with children and go
off on the "dubious content" (well to them anyway) and seeing how they (rightly so) want to protect children from
it,they inadvertently curse the whole industry because they don't understand it or the people who play/create
them?

Numerous studies have pointed out that children are better at seeing a videogame as "just a game" which has no
roots nor does it reflect reality in any way.
If you need proof of this, When was the last time you got car-jacked at gun point only to see the culprit run over
people in your car before dying in a shoot out with the police?

Your thoughts? And if there are any "1337-Girls" in, please do share your view on this.
 

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People: Equality for women!
Nerds: Equality for video game women!

[rant]
You know what I hate? The fact that most people call this equality.

Rape? You know how you can make things more equal in a VERY easy way? Go rape some men. Then we will be more equal. No, seriously, nobody wants equality, they just want to be special snowflakes. Shut the fuck up and stop calling it equality.

You want to help? How about learning how to code and coding your own games instead of bitching about it. Ugh.. people.

[/rant]
 
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There would need to be a higher polygon count before I looked at a woman from a video game sexually, maybe a higher texture size and utilizing tessellation techniques on extrusive body parts.
 

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Beer Guardian
ENTP 5w6 So/Sx 584 ILE Honorary INTJ
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What's the punchline?

 

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majority of people lead useless lives and are looking for a cause to attach themselves to or something to be "offended and up in arms about"

video games are exactly as they sound…f*cking video games, people play them to have fun with their friends and escape reality, sad reality is, we live in a society that tells us its "ok" to be like this. It tells us that its ok to be a complete p*ssy and to complain until we get what we (think) we want.

If your so butt hurt about the idea that men love boobs then move to Iran.
 

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What's so special? Lack of female characters are a problem in other media as well. Maybe it's just particularly jarring in video games? It might be the way that videogames encourage you to think of the protagonist as 'yourself'. Although I seem to see a lot of this same debate about comics and movies as well, so I think you're wrong in that it's just the vidyagames. I guess it's just easer to stumble upon it.

As a female gamer, I do get thoroughly sick of (more or less) only getting to play as a straight white dude in video games, and also of hearing this repeated whine of 'uuugh why do we need to talk about this.' I do get really sick of the debate itself, as well, just because nothing really seems to change (ditto for any debate about sexism). I'd say something about privilege, representation, and self-fulfilling prophecies (publishers think games with female protegonists won't sell, so they don't give those games enough budget, so they don't sell) but tbh I can't be bothered rn...

I don't have a problem with the damsel in distress, I guess, so long as it's not the only fucking character-type women get to be in games. It's pretty old and stale though, let's be honest. At least they could make some more male versions, that would be good.

@HypoTempes, The fact that you don't know anyone who has a problem with the situation says more about you and your friends than anything else.

@Tzara, yeah, just break into a male-dominated field that's super hard to get into and requires a pretty extensive knowledge of math and algorithms! Or strike out on your own in an already over-saturated marked! Much easier than appealing to the people who already have the power to change these things, I'm sure. Although, for the record, I am
...learning how to code and coding your own games...
so there's that.
 

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@Tzara, yeah, just break into a male-dominated field that's super hard to get into and requires a pretty extensive knowledge of math and algorithms! Or strike out on your own in an already over-saturated marked! Much easier than appealing to the people who already have the power to change these things, I'm sure. Although, for the record, I am
...learning how to code and coding your own games...
so there's that.
Coding is actually easy, well its not that hard unless you mess with the extra complex stuff? And the developers are not as male dominated as you think. The buyers are the ones male dominated.

Plus, they arent appealing, they are bitching about it. It would still be nice if they gathered around people who would claim "we will buy this game where women are better defined." instead of "women suck in your games."

My point is; bitching doesnt work. It will never work. Look, these guys are profiting in high amounts already, why should they care unless you offer them a better solution?

And the argument itself is half-true. First off, men arent portrayed as normal men. And secondly, there are non-exploited girl protagonists. Faith Connors for example. Or Samus Aran (sorry for spoiling to whoever read this in 1986 :)) , Chell of portal. Jade of Beyond good and evil, Sarah Kerrigan, etc etc. They are not nearly as little in amounts as they make it sound.
 
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Coding is actually easy, well its not that hard unless you mess with the extra complex stuff? And the developers are not as male dominated as you think. The buyers are the ones male dominated.
Yeah, coding is easy. It's designing systems that's hard. 3D programming is hard, you need to know things about vectors and matrices and shit, and for video games, you need things to run as efficiently as possible, meaning you might want to use a low-level language, which is a pain in the ass :frustrating: because they're all about details.

I suspect we have a different definition of male dominated, because to me it means 'the majority of developers are male'. Which they are. I do know that there are some women, but computer programming in general and game development in particular are both still male dominated fields.

Not sure if you mean 'the buyers of video games' here? Because they're really not. about 40% of people who buy video games are female (and yes, that is including all kinds of video games, but not all of us are filthy casuals), not to mention that there are more women over 20 who buy games than boys under 20 (the demographic most game-makers aim for).

And the argument itself is half-true. First off, men arent portrayed as normal men. And secondly, there are non-exploited girl protagonists. Faith Connors for example. Or Samus Aran (sorry for spoiling to whoever read this in 1986 :)) , Chell of portal. Jade of Beyond good and evil, Sarah Kerrigan, etc etc. They are not nearly as little in amounts as they make it sound.
I didn't say there weren't any, just that the vast majority of the people you get to play as are male. Not sure I'd put Samus in that list of yours, considering Other M. Chell was also a lovely surprise - for that character, it would have made no difference if she were male or female, so I like that they made her female. The problem is, it shouldn't be a surprise! It's difficult to find a good game with a female protagonist, which sucks. I've been playing video games for about 20 years now, I grew up wondering why there weren't any girls in my games :rolleyes:, trust me, there are as few female protagonists as they say. A handful of them are a drop in the ocean. Yes, they exist, the problem is there aren't enough of them, and the thought that male is the default.

Secondly, no, men aren't portrayed as 'normal men', they're portrayed as male power-fantasies. And women are (frequently; as you pointed out, there are exceptions) portrayed as objects for male desire. The message is (usually); you should want to be the men, and have sex with the women.

Some people make the argument that 'oh but men are just as sexualised as women' but the fact is they're not. Not in a way that's aimed at straight women, at least.
 

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Yeah, coding is easy. It's designing systems that's hard. 3D programming is hard, you need to know things about vectors and matrices and shit, and for video games, you need things to run as efficiently as possible, meaning you might want to use a low-level language, which is a pain in the ass :frustrating: because they're all about details.
Cant argue with that... You know whats worse? Coding in assembly, but thats a different argument.


I suspect we have a different definition of male dominated, because to me it means 'the majority of developers are male'. Which they are. I do know that there are some women, but computer programming in general and game development in particular are both still male dominated fields.
I assumed dominated as like 95% to 5% but its like 70-80% to 30-20%. Which isnt something I would call dominated.
Computer programming is male dominated, but game development isnt as dominated as it is. But it seems it will still be dominated by your definition.

Not sure if you mean 'the buyers of video games' here? Because they're really not. about 40% of people who buy video games are female (and yes, that is including all kinds of video games, but not all of us are filthy casuals), not to mention that there are more women over 20 who buy games than boys under 20 (the demographic most game-makers aim for).
Thats more than I assumed. Still male dominated by your definition :tongue:


I didn't say there weren't any, just that the vast majority of the people you get to play as are male. Not sure I'd put Samus in that list of yours, considering Other M. Chell was also a lovely surprise - for that character, it would have made no difference if she were male or female, so I like that they made her female. The problem is, it shouldn't be a surprise! It's difficult to find a good game with a female protagonist, which sucks. I've been playing video games for about 20 years now, I grew up wondering why there weren't any girls in my games :rolleyes:, trust me, there are as few female protagonists as they say. A handful of them are a drop in the ocean. Yes, they exist, the problem is there aren't enough of them, and the thought that male is the default.
Almost all non-specified main characters (Like Fable or most RPGs) have the gender option. So that takes a HUGE part of characters in gaming nobody seems to mention.

Secondly, no, men aren't portrayed as 'normal men', they're portrayed as male power-fantasies. And women are (frequently; as you pointed out, there are exceptions) portrayed as objects for male desire. The message is (usually); you should want to be the men, and have sex with the women.
So you want female protagonists having sex with men or less men having sex with women? :tongue:
Also, "male power-fantasies" are as much an exploitation as boobs. Just saying.

Some people make the argument that 'oh but men are just as sexualised as women' but the fact is they're not. Not in a way that's aimed at straight women, at least.
The outline here is, they made a tomb raider game, people bitch about exploited females(Which is true). Then they made farcry3, where the guy is dominated by a female, and then people bitch about females being used as sex icons. Then they make a game without female characters, people bitch about the fact that there arent any females(why not? why do we need female characters so much? I've played alien games, and I never asked anyone WHY ARENT THERE HUMANS!?!). Then they make a side-kick female character, and people bitch about the fact that females arent protagonists but sidekicks. And then they make a sidekick male, who at one point saves the female character, and people bitch that it makes women look like damsels in distress(why is he a sidekick if he will never help?).

What I'm trying to say is, if the main character of far cry was a female, the ending scene would still be considered offensive to females and people would still bitch about it. There is no happy ending here. Because no matter what, any sexual based move on a game, is automatically assumed to be offensive to women. Which is why, I assume developers prefer male characters more.

Think about the butler in tomb raider 2, think of the fuss it would create if that was a women.

This will sound retarded so ill warn you :tongue: OMG a brothel men must pay for sex, women are using men. OMG she used him for sex and killed him. OMG she keeps using him and asking him to do stuff for him. etc etc. In most cases, (not all) its just people exaggerating the game.

And on the other hand is; profit.
Look the reality here is people make games to sell them and not for people to enjoy freely, if I made a female character, I would exploit it so that it would sell better, If I made a male character, I would still exploit it. It doesnt really matter.
 
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I don't really care, it's just a video game.
This is the ENTP forum. Its not the video game people care about, its the chance to argue about something vigorously. :happy:
 

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Has anyone else noticed that, if you play as a woman in Mass Effect 3, you have more lesbian romance options than heterosexual ones? (4:3, by the way). So while they included the option of a female protagonist (which I just noticed wasn't advertised at all in any of the trailers), it certainly wasn't motivated solely by a desire to include women; part of her role is to satisfy a male sexual fantasy. I probably don't play enough games to comment on whether or not the industry as a whole is similar, but society as a whole definitely is.
 

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Is this why The Last of Us is so widely liked? Even though it stars a straight white male, there's not female exploitation and the female lead is relatable. She's not too weak and she's overall a great character.

Sorry if I derailed the conversation. I just skimmed over the thread.
 

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Uuugh, don't even get me started on assembly programming >_<. Worst ever :angry:.

Okay yeah it's a poor definition, but I didn't want to go into percentages. I still say if only 2-3 out of 10 game developers are women, that's a male dominated field. That's close to 1 in 3, which is interesting, because that's about the ratio of female to male characters in movies (or so I heard somewhere - I'd google it, but it's late).
The difference being that the powerfantasy is empowering, while 'boobs' are reducing people to objects :wink: I know which I'd rather have. I don't have any particular attatchment to anyone having more or less sex tbh :p

Eh, exploit away, I suppose... I just want more games where I can actually identify with the protagonist. Of course there are some people who will never be happy, but you'd think (re:profit) companies would work a little harder to, if not be more inclusive, then at least actively alienate potential paying customers (i.e. gays, non-white people and women) less? Some already do, like those games you mentioned, although in the first Fable, you could only be a man. These games are also in the minority, as it makes writing the story more complicated, since you have to take into account the choices the player made in making the character.

Thing is, if you don't make a thing visible, that thing is probably never going to change. People talk about it because it bothers them. Bitching does help in one way; makes you feel better for having let out those emotions. In a hypothetical scenario where the gender-representation-ratio got so equal nobody felt the need to talk about it anymore, the debate would likely switch to ethnicity and sexuality, or something else people take issue with. I don't think we're in danger of running out of things for people to bitch about on the internet :tongue:

Oh wow, it got really late all of a sudden:shocked: This was fun and all, but I seriously need to go to bed now...
 

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Is this why The Last of Us is so widely liked? Even though it stars a straight white male, there's not female exploitation and the female lead is relatable. She's not too weak and she's overall a great character.

Sorry if I derailed the conversation. I just skimmed over the thread.
Possibly... I didn't play The Last of Us because shooters generally aren't my genre, but I watched a let's play, and Ellie is pretty cool. It's the same kind of situation that Bioshock Infinite has, with Elizabeth. Actually, I take back what I said about there being no progress, there has been some. It's slow in the way you don't really notice it while it's going on, but it is there.
 

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Ok, first of all... Mmorpgs aren't mainstream?

Secondly; no thanks, they're too slow paced for me... I get bored with the grind. And there is always a grind.

I used to play SWTOR, but got too bored and quit at lvl 46 or something (like right before the end of the story missions too), it was just too damn slow.
 
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