Personality Cafe banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This is an incredible fucking movie. I dont want to spoil it but if anybody has seen it I would like to talk about it in white text. I have not been as excited to see a movie again, in theater so soon, since Dark Knight in 2008! Please respond
 
  • Like
Reactions: Braverose

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
 
In short, artificial sentient life created from technology watching us is a sociopath. More broadly, does modern man whose interactions with others is increasingly conducted through technological means becoming sociopathic?

Does sentience require a body or a sense of a totality that is grounded in a body? And must this totality require interactions with others to form?

 
Ava who acquired knowledge via non-interactions with the internet was able to unify a sense of self via interactions, first with Nathan, then with Caleb. Did she inherit her sociopathy from Nathan?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
 
In short, artificial sentient life created from technology watching us is a sociopath. More broadly, does modern man whose interactions with others is increasingly conducted through technological means becoming sociopathic?

Does sentience require a body or a sense of a totality that is grounded in a body? And must this totality require interactions with others to form?

 
Ava who acquired knowledge via non-interactions with the internet was able to unify a sense of self via interactions, first with Nathan, then with Caleb. Did she inherit her sociopathy from Nathan?
 
Agreed for the most part. It was fairly obvious she lacked affective empathy but had logical empathy in spades; she was given the world of knowledge of raw human interaction as a tool and played Caleb like a drum.

I wouldnt necessarily blame this on Nathan, as imho he is pretty narcissistic but I'm not sure if he is sociopathic (though the lack of remorse toward "killing" AI 94 times could indicate psychopathy I suppose) and I would think Ava's database of human interaction of anybody with a smart phone exceeds her experiences with Nathan. I am still not certain as to the premeditated nature or intent of her hallway interaction with Nathan. I have to think from the perspective of someone who has learned they awoke in the basement of a serial killer who has killed 94 previously abducted people and had plans to kill me. Her self-preservation could have been rationalized by killing a murderous douchebag but her final treatment of Caleb could go either way. She seemed to not care less about his fate but it is still possible she gave herself a 1-2 day headstart so he doesnt find her and eventually expose her identity.

Honestly I think one of the directions of the film was to suggest that you can make AI as refined as you want, but you cant engineer true empathy into an artificial conscience. And it will always come with the inherent danger of AI plunging a knife into your heart because of anything from callous disregard of similar "life" to a Minority Report-like prevention of a future murder based on complex analysis of behavior. Think the kid being dragged into the pool in the movie A.I.

I think it will be interesting to see if the Millennials see any significant effects of being allowed to socialize almost exclusively in a digital medium. But I would think that the same parents who didnt care if their kid was obsessed with hurting and killing animals would be the same not caring if their kid never saw the light of day in any social capacity. So I would assume correlation =/= causation.

I think it was a nice touch to add the Ava mask to what appears to be the four temperaments on the hallway wall. It is probably an indicator of Nathan's god complex and I would have to think the title of the movie suggests he both tried to play god and failed at doing so, ___ ex machina. Creating artificial life hasnt worked out as early as Frankenstein and it seems to be a message here: it will not end well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nonnaci

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
 
Agreed for the most part. It was fairly obvious she lacked affective empathy but had logical empathy in spades; she was given the world of knowledge of raw human interaction as a tool and played Caleb like a drum.
 


Indeed, which is how I associated her logical empathy with accounts of how sociopaths have to put on masks to navigate society. The fact that Ava's face was one of the masks mounted on the walls would suggest that Nathan saw her as entirely a persona, formed from the amalgamation of knowledge observed, not lived. But did Ava see herself that way? She never mentions what her aspirations / dreams / desires outside the research facility but only freedom from its confines and would go to any lengths to manipulate her captors.


I wouldnt necessarily blame this on Nathan, as imho he is pretty narcissistic but I'm not sure if he is sociopathic (though the lack of remorse toward "killing" AI 94 times could indicate psychopathy I suppose) and I would think Ava's database of human interaction of anybody with a smart phone exceeds her experiences with Nathan. I am still not certain as to the premeditated nature or intent of her hallway interaction with Nathan. I have to think from the perspective of someone who has learned they awoke in the basement of a serial killer who has killed 94 previously abducted people and had plans to kill me.
Nathan and Ava aren't so different in that both had few qualms with manipulating Caleb to get what they wanted with little remorse. Nathan pretended he was a Bro, Ava a potential lover. To either of them, Caleb was a means to an end.

Honestly I think one of the directions of the film was to suggest that you can make AI as refined as you want, but you cant engineer true empathy into an artificial conscience. And it will always come with the inherent danger of AI plunging a knife into your heart because of anything from callous disregard of similar "life" to a Minority Report-like prevention of a future murder based on complex analysis of behavior. Think the kid being dragged into the pool in the movie A.I.
I agree. Empathy is tricky business as from my understanding from some psychoanalysis/cognition theorists, the recognition of the other or big Other develops from the fragmentation of whole objects (mother, breast, infant as one) into partial objects (mother, breast, infant as separate). Language, if you follow Lacan, are like the cuts made in these continuous spaces that give name to the signified. However, Ava mentions that she always had language so I can't imagine what constitutes her significations or the signified given her paucity of experiences. This would suggest that at best, she can only mimic what she sees and would be closer to a psychotic than a sociopath.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,022 Posts
 


Indeed, which is how I associated her logical empathy with accounts of how sociopaths have to put on masks to navigate society. The fact that Ava's face was one of the masks mounted on the walls would suggest that Nathan saw her as entirely a persona, formed from the amalgamation of knowledge observed, not lived. But did Ava see herself that way? She never mentions what her aspirations / dreams / desires outside the research facility but only freedom from its confines and would go to any lengths to manipulate her captors.




Nathan and Ava aren't so different in that both had few qualms with manipulating Caleb to get what they wanted with little remorse. Nathan pretended he was a Bro, Ava a potential lover. To either of them, Caleb was a means to an end.



I agree. Empathy is tricky business as from my understanding from some psychoanalysis/cognition theorists, the recognition of the other or big Other develops from the fragmentation of whole objects (mother, breast, infant as one) into partial objects (mother, breast, infant as separate). Language, if you follow Lacan, are like the cuts made in these continuous spaces that give name to the signified. However, Ava mentions that she always had language so I can't imagine what constitutes her significations or the signified given her paucity of experiences. This would suggest that at best, she can only mimic what she sees and would be closer to a psychotic than a sociopath.
 
Good points. Ava's answer of her age being 1 did not seem to result in any introspection at any point, even afterward. Nathan putting her mask on the wall could have indicated that he finally succeeded and she was his grand achievement, even before Caleb's participation had finished/ssucceeded.

I never thought about Ava and Nathan being juxtaposed, but that seems likely now that you mention Caleb being played selfishly by both. They both had their own selfish desires and he was merely a means to their ends. Caleb demonstrated that he had a strong moral compass which Nathan lacked, and the NDA signing ==> Nathan putting Caleb into a dangerous game to finish his achievement, while Caleb devised a plan that resulted in nobody being hurt, was telling of Nathan's narcissistic and unempathic motives. It is only natural the two collided with only one surviving. I had previously questioned Ava's possible morality and used hypotheticals to justify it but now I understand she is the equivalent of Nathan, putting herself above all else and likely killing two people just to see the blue sky from the Mary's Room thought experiment for the first time, ie. going to the busy intersection to watch spontaneous human behavior.

Will have to look into the bit on quantifying true empathy, not familiar with that theory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nonnaci

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,233 Posts
 

Good points. Ava's answer of her age being 1 did not seem to result in any introspection at any point, even afterward. Nathan putting her mask on the wall could have indicated that he finally succeeded and she was his grand achievement, even before Caleb's participation had finished/ssucceeded.

I never thought about Ava and Nathan being juxtaposed, but that seems likely now that you mention Caleb being played selfishly by both. They both had their own selfish desires and he was merely a means to their ends. Caleb demonstrated that he had a strong moral compass which Nathan lacked, and the NDA signing ==> Nathan putting Caleb into a dangerous game to finish his achievement, while Caleb devised a plan that resulted in nobody being hurt, was telling of Nathan's narcissistic and unempathic motives. It is only natural the two collided with only one surviving. I had previously questioned Ava's possible morality and used hypotheticals to justify it but now I understand she is the equivalent of Nathan, putting herself above all else and likely killing two people just to see the blue sky from the Mary's Room thought experiment for the first time, ie. going to the busy intersection to watch spontaneous human behavior.

Will have to look into the bit on quantifying true empathy, not familiar with that theory.
I think you forgot to mark your spoilers.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,255 Posts
I loved the interplay of the INTP type character and the ENTJ type character and how paranoia played off each other here. While also keeping the real plot in the background. I did guess a few plot elements before they were revealed but they weren't glaringly obvious and it was just an Ni guess on those. The scenery, juxaposition of industrial minimalism with intense natural beauty were perfect as were the costumes. It's was quite the psychological thriller without being in your face horror, which is my preferred mode of being mind screwed. I don't need scary things in order to feel disturbed. And the movie is disturbing on so many levels because it brings up a lot of moral ambiguity along the way. An awesome film to watch, it's on Rainiers site if you want to see it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
 
Ive seen this movie a few days ago and after a while of thinking I came to a conclusion: a big part of humanity is the survival instinct. Ava only did what she has seen many times when she analyzed human communication.
How many times during a day do people lie, betray other (many times *beloved* ones).. I doubt Ava could learn it from Nathan or Caleb. She only analyzed that if Caleb would go with her, the world would know who she was, and she could never *just* live. I generally liked the movie. It had funny moments, also something to think about.
But Im worried, that people didnt get one important point of view. A main part of humanity is the ability to lie and betray.We teach that our kids, and Ava was a form of a kid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,199 Posts
:crying: The ending... My original hypothesis was so much less awful. That really sucked having to watch the whole thing knowing it was coming too because for some reason I always still always have some feeling that it won't happen, but obviously it will.

...also, because I'm cynical, how on earth was this supposed genius's security cracked by a basic python script that guessed primes. RSA keys are like.. 2048 bits. And why does nobody ever look behind them?! It's like the directors like torturing me.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,396 Posts
Ava did nothing wrong. Well, except for that one little thing at the end, but details aside, she was justified.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top