Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,477 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've become aware of a cycle within myself resulting from all my soul searching. When I grow especially attached to people I try, or wish, to display how special I think they are through special attentiveness and flexibility. I could go out on a death-defying limb for the people I claim love for. I've started to notice that I continue with my attentiveness and flexibility and forget myself. That is, I expect to be needed instead of being there for my loved ones in case I'm needed. As stated in the title, it is as if I expect love in return. How selfish, right? I had to catch myself in this. It was so subtle but caused me so much pain when I wasn't needed like I thought I'd be.

My instinctual variants play an interesting role in this, I can tell. The SOCial likes to reinforce supreme bonds and best friendships, and belong. The SeXual likes intensity in one-to-one encounters. I guess I pick out exceptional people and cling to them hoping they cling back. It comes off as piteous. To my credit, the chosen have been good friends before I zeroed in on them. I have this way of seeing someone's nature and adoring them for it, unconditionally (but it's very rare). I know I really want the people I've chosen to be happy more than anything else, so I've thought on this extensively. Anyone get me? If so, it burns, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
I feel the same way about people and get very attached to people I adore, trying to make them happy almost at any cost. Sometimes the results are good and sometimes they aren't. Maybe it's because we both have sx second? Supposedly the second variant is the one that comes most naturally, with the first variant the one we focus on most (self-preservation for me).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,477 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I feel the same way about people and get very attached to people I adore, trying to make them happy almost at any cost. Sometimes the results are good and sometimes they aren't. Maybe it's because we both have sx second? Supposedly the second variant is the one that comes most naturally, with the first variant the one we focus on most (self-preservation for me).
Thanks, Unico! Was waiting for a hand in this. Ah, yes. I think I recall reading that: the 2nd variant feeling most natural and the 1st being one's main focus. So our tendencies (what comes naturally) are alike then, if it is true. How does your Self-Pres make you differ from me in this context of loving others? How does the conflict of it all affect you and your feelings?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,526 Posts
I've become aware of a cycle within myself resulting from all my soul searching. When I grow especially attached to people I try, or wish, to display how special I think they are through special attentiveness and flexibility. I could go out on a death-defying limb for the people I claim love for. I've started to notice that I continue with my attentiveness and flexibility and forget myself. That is, I expect to be needed instead of being there for my loved ones in case I'm needed. As stated in the title, it is as if I expect love in return. How selfish, right? I had to catch myself in this. It was so subtle but caused me so much pain when I wasn't needed like I thought I'd be.

My instinctual variants play an interesting role in this, I can tell. The SOCial likes to reinforce supreme bonds and best friendships, and belong. The SeXual likes intensity in one-to-one encounters. I guess I pick out exceptional people and cling to them hoping they cling back. It comes off as piteous. To my credit, the chosen have been good friends before I zeroed in on them. I have this way of seeing someone's nature and adoring them for it, unconditionally (but it's very rare). I know I really want the people I've chosen to be happy more than anything else, so I've thought on this extensively. Anyone get me? If so, it burns, right?
The bolded is the only thing I relate to. I'm sp/sx.

Maybe @unico's relatedness has more to do with w3 and the 469 tritype than instincts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
Thanks, Unico! Was waiting for a hand in this. Ah, yes. I think I recall reading that: the 2nd variant feeling most natural and the 1st being one's main focus. So our tendencies (what comes naturally) are alike then, if it is true. How does your Self-Pres make you differ from me in this context of loving others? How does the conflict of it all affect you and your feelings?
If I recall you are a 4w3-6w7-9w1 like I am, correct? If so, that would have to be discounted in our differences. Self-preservation makes me a homebody who prefers her intimates to come to me and not to ruin my inner peace and calm environment. I desperately want close relationships and pursue them, clinging to people easily, but I also want them to fit into my life as it already exists. I have made my home and my life a comfortable place and I don't want that interrupted. I can be torn between throwing myself into relationships and needing to withdraw a bit to safety and comfort. I don't handle relationship problems well at all. My world feels upside down. I get very needy and try to get people not to leave me. At that point they have already become a part of my comfortable life. I hope that makes sense!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,778 Posts
I know this nefarious habit and have washed myself of it after it finally provided enough pain. I'd like to be able to do it, but in a more balanced way that is more difficult to abuse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
505 Posts
I had been talking about this with a Type 4 a couple of months back, but does this sound familiar?
(1) No one understands me, I'm different because of [insert individual Type 4's perception of their own uniqueness].
(2) Holy crap! You understand me! (Note this is usually an illogical and ill-conceived assumption based of something minor like - you're spending more time with me, no one would do that if they don't get me!)
(3) You must be different like me.
(4) Wait, why don't you care about me the same way I care about you? You have to! We're . . . different. Different people . . . have to be together?
(5) Okay . . . goodbye then. Argh! Rinse and repeat.

* Then how many Type 4s think this process is unique to themselves when it's likely endemic to all humanity because, let's face it, we all need human interaction and caring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
I had been talking about this with a Type 4 a couple of months back, but does this sound familiar?
(1) No one understands me, I'm different because of [insert individual Type 4's perception of their own uniqueness].
(2) Holy crap! You understand me! (Note this is usually an illogical and ill-conceived assumption based of something minor like - you're spending more time with me, no one would do that if they don't get me!)
(3) You must be different like me.
(4) Wait, why don't you care about me the same way I care about you? You have too! We're . . . different. Different people . . . have to be together?
(5) Okay . . . goodbye then. Argh! Rinse and repeat.

* Then how many Type 4s think this process is unique to themselves when it's likely endemic to all humanity because, let's face it, we all need human interaction and caring.
Kind of... But I rarely say "goodbye" without a fight. I hate losing people:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,188 Posts
I had been talking about this with a Type 4 a couple of months back, but does this sound familiar?
(1) No one understands me, I'm different because of [insert individual Type 4's perception of their own uniqueness].
(2) Holy crap! You understand me! (Note this is usually an illogical and ill-conceived assumption based of something minor like - you're spending more time with me, no one would do that if they don't get me!)
(3) You must be different like me.
(4) Wait, why don't you care about me the same way I care about you? You have too! We're . . . different. Different people . . . have to be together?
(5) Okay . . . goodbye then. Argh! Rinse and repeat.

* Then how many Type 4s think this process is unique to themselves when it's likely endemic to all humanity because, let's face it, we all need human interaction and caring.
Wow. That's exactly what happens to me. Then, it turns out they don't really understand me, and I become disillusioned and unhappy.

@Le9acyMuse, I do that as well. I don't necessarily get attached easily, but once I am attached I want to be the person that they always look to when they need help.

That is, I expect to be needed instead of being there for my loved ones in case I'm needed. As stated in the title, it is as if I expect love in return.
Yes...definitely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,636 Posts
I do the same thing, and hey, so/sx here.

I "select" people and give them everything, emotional attention, my time, my loyalty, and trust. I try really hard to facillitate these bonds, maybe too hard, maybe trying to put myself in the "best friend" position.
If they forget me, move on to someone else, don't include me, or are not there for me like I am there for them, I am sad but also really angry! I feel like I've been betrayed. I feel like everyone is a waste of time and I can't trust anyone. I also get angry when they have other friends who "usurp" my position. I am really competitive with my friends!! They may not even be aware of it, because to show that side of me is detirmental to the goal--- being the one they love the most and will never get rid of!

This may be four going to two as well??

anyways, it doesn't work, really, people just want someone to have fun with. Wish I was more fun. :-/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,636 Posts
Kind of... But I rarely say "goodbye" without a fight. I hate losing people:(
I think of it that way too!!

I wonder if this is really weird

I visuaize the "closeness" of my friends to me. I am at the center, and I plot each friend's point on the map as how close they are to the center of the circle. People move around a lot, you know, if you are in eachother's proximity, if they are annoyed with you, if you're getting along great, some people are close then dissapear forever, others stay always within at least the edge, even if you don't see them.

If someone moves away from the center dot though, it tends to distress me, and if there is no one moving closer to replace it, I freak out. And if someone leaves the circle I thought would stay, I think of it exactly like that "I am losing people", "Why did I lose my friends?"

I COLLECT them. It's for security. I need them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
I do the same thing, and hey, so/sx here.

I "select" people and give them everything, emotional attention, my time, my loyalty, and trust. I try really hard to facillitate these bonds, maybe too hard, maybe trying to put myself in the "best friend" position.
If they forget me, move on to someone else, don't include me, or are not there for me like I am there for them, I am sad but also really angry! I feel like I've been betrayed. I feel like everyone is a waste of time and I can't trust anyone. I also get angry when they have other friends who "usurp" my position. I am really competitive with my friends!! They may not even be aware of it, because to show that side of me is detirmental to the goal--- being the one they love the most and will never get rid of!

This may be four going to two as well??

anyways, it doesn't work, really, people just want someone to have fun with. Wish I was more fun. :-/
I don't get angry usually, but I do get really upset if people leave me. I agree it's disintegrating to 2 -- I become very people-obsessed, give extravagantly, and try to make myself indispensable to the person so they don't leave me.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,526 Posts
I had been talking about this with a Type 4 a couple of months back, but does this sound familiar?
(1) No one understands me, I'm different because of [insert individual Type 4's perception of their own uniqueness].
(2) Holy crap! You understand me! (Note this is usually an illogical and ill-conceived assumption based of something minor like - you're spending more time with me, no one would do that if they don't get me!)
(3) You must be different like me.
(4) Wait, why don't you care about me the same way I care about you? You have to! We're . . . different. Different people . . . have to be together?
(5) Okay . . . goodbye then. Argh! Rinse and repeat.

* Then how many Type 4s think this process is unique to themselves when it's likely endemic to all humanity because, let's face it, we all need human interaction and caring.
I tend to drop people, too. I grow disenchanted when the relationship loses its intensity. But then time passes and I get a sort of amnesia and find myself longing for them again, idealizing 'what we had' and re-connecting. And then the cycle continues.

It's not that I completely remove them from my life, necessarily, but the need to see them wanes and I no longer confide the way I used to. This even happens with my husband. If we don't do things alone together I become very disconnected from him and don't tell him much, find myself idealizing other people.

My guess is this is an indication of sexual variant first. Sexual second fours are more inclined to hold on to people through thick and thin, I'm thinking. I've had to work at this a lot more.

I should add, however, that my initial intensity and confiding can freak people out a bit and then they bolt and then I'm begging for them not to leave. If they hadn't bolted, however, I would probably lose interest eventually.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
I tend to drop people, too. I grow disenchanted when the relationship loses its intensity. But then time passes and I get a sort of amnesia and find myself longing for them again, idealizing 'what we had' and re-connecting. And then the cycle continues.

It's not that I completely remove them from my life, necessarily, but the need to see them wanes and I no longer confide the way I used to. This even happens with my husband. If we don't do things alone together I become very disconnected from him and don't tell him much, find myself idealizing other people.

My guess is this is an indication of sexual variant first. Sexual second fours are more inclined to hold on to people through thick and thin, I'm thinking. I've had to work at this a lot more.

I should add, however, that my initial intensity and confiding can freak people out a bit and then they bolt and then I'm begging for them not to leave. If they hadn't bolted, however, I would probably lose interest eventually.
The idea that you struggle more with the sx variant, just like I struggle with the sp variant makes me further convinced that the first variant is the one we have obsessive struggles with, while the second variant is one we are more confident with.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,526 Posts
@unico, I also think it can be confusing because people tend to think sexual variant is just about intimate relationships with people. I like this quote from the enneagram institute about sexual variant:

The sexual type is constantly moving toward that sense of intense stimulation and juicy energy in their relationships and in their activities.
It's this drive for stimulation, be it mental or physical. I see it as a sort of need for surging levels of dopamine. You can get this from people or... investigating your enneagram type. I mean, whatever trips your trigger... A sexual variant type gets addicted to the feeling, whatever the source. That's why addiction can be an issue. People so often assume this means drugs, alcohol, etc, but you can get addicted to pretty much anything, really. And when you're no longer getting that high, you search for what will give it to you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
@unico, I also think it can be confusing because people tend to think sexual variant is just about intimate relationships with people. I like this quote from the enneagram institute about sexual variant:



It's this drive for stimulation, be it mental or physical. I see it as a sort of need for surging levels of dopamine. You can get this from people or... investigating your enneagram type. I mean, whatever trips your trigger... A sexual variant type gets addicted to the feeling, whatever the source. That's why addiction can be an issue. People so often assume this means drugs, alcohol, etc, but you can get addicted to pretty much anything, really. And when you're no longer getting that high, you search for what will give it to you.
I really relate to this description, too, and think my sx is almost as strong as my sp. However, my sp issues are slightly more predominant.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,526 Posts
I really relate to this description, too, and think my sx is almost as strong as my sp. However, my sp issues are slightly more predominant.
Yeah, mine are relatively close, too, but I think sexual variant is for sure stronger.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,636 Posts
@unico, I also think it can be confusing because people tend to think sexual variant is just about intimate relationships with people. I like this quote from the enneagram institute about sexual variant:



It's this drive for stimulation, be it mental or physical. I see it as a sort of need for surging levels of dopamine. You can get this from people or... investigating your enneagram type. I mean, whatever trips your trigger... A sexual variant type gets addicted to the feeling, whatever the source. That's why addiction can be an issue. People so often assume this means drugs, alcohol, etc, but you can get addicted to pretty much anything, really. And when you're no longer getting that high, you search for what will give it to you.
This makes me wonder if I am sx/so. Dammit. Back to the drawing board *goes to research* It's hard to tell because my four wing five qualities make me pursue many stimulants or activities alone, but there is this social, needy, group oriented part of me, which i related to the so instinct. But that quote also sounds like me...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
505 Posts
@brainheart @unico

can you guys walk me through how the sp instinct manifests in a four?
@adverseaffects, @brainheart @unico

From Four stacks - the enneagram ...info from the underground

The Instinctual Stackings of Enneatype Four


Self-pres/Social

This subtype is the least volatile and fiery of the type Four stackings. They can resemble type One in terms of their efficiency and practicality. Although their focus will be more on the emotional aesthetic, these Fours do have a considerable practical side. Less flashy than some of the subtypes of Four, they nevertheless have a quiet charm and developed sense of style. They are likely to value their possessions, to perhaps collect items of personal emotional significance. They may, for instance, have shelves and shelves of books and have a place for each book. This subtype can also resemble type Six in terms of having a great deal of anxiety. This anxiety often revolves around self-pres concerns such as those surrounding health issues and mortality. Their strong self-pres instinct also lends a degree of independence to this subtype. As the sexual instinct is least pronounced, this subtype of Four is prone to romanticize intimacy without actually pursuing real relationships. When healthy, these Fours can be very productive; when less healthy they might suffer from boughts of melancholy or self pity. The strong self-pres instinct however often helps these individuals to recognize how their state of mind is impacting their health and well being. This enables them to become action oriented.


Self/Sexual

This subtype also cares very much about their surroundings and their possessions. They feel as if these things help to express who they are. There is more of a passionate sense about them as compared to the self/soc. They have more of a sensual relationship with their environment. These Fours are much more tortured by their difficulty with respect to maintaining close relationships. The self-preservational instinct tends to be in conflict with the sexual instinct, causing this subtype to habitually analyze their relationships to the point where they find it difficult to be present to them. When unhealthy, these Fours can become very disdainful of the social environment. They also start to envy the ease with which others seem to form relationships and maintain friendships. When Fours of this subtype are healthy, they find that they can form relationships without feeling as though they are sacrificing authenticity. They no longer feel that they have to automatically define themselves as "different from others," as outside the group. They are able to see the ways in which their emotionality might cloud their better judgment and to use that insight to establish equilibrium.


Social/Self-pres

This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.

The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four's sense of being "different from" or "other than." The Four's need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct's drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.

When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.

Social/Sexual

This is overall the "lightest" type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype’s energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in. They are often quite creative, talented people who have many interests, but they frequently lack the energy to actually accomplish what they would like. They can drift and withdraw very easily. When healthy and with the right support from friends (and perhaps a little push) they tap into their instinctual energy. When they do this, they begin to see how much they can accomplish. A positive connection to others helps them stay focused.

Sexual/Self-pres

This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.



Sexual/Social

This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.

How accurate does this feel to you'all?

Sx/sp Type 4 makes me sound like a lunatic. lol. I'm starting to wonder . . .

At the same time, check out this - varying strengths of instinctual stacking: Typewatch Enneagram

Maybe I'm this lol. Dunno. Hard to tell. I just have this sneaking feeling so is second and I really don't want that lol.
sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.
 
  • Like
Reactions: unico
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top