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Discussion Starter #1
Experiencing "thehigher" Realm and Duality of Love - Beyond Intellectual Barriers

Note these messages are in response to a spiritual question asked of me, by thehigher:


“...your question really got me thinking about my spirituality and how my .... logic may be getting in the way.... could you expand on.... that?”


If you don’t like the topic, then do not look too closely. It is not a debate as to whether or not intellectuals can be spiritual, it is about how intellect can prevent access to spiritual realm experiences, and can even hinder spiritual growth if not used in a spiritual context.


I know some atheists like to have a field day with the idea that religion/spiritual discipline stunts intellectual growth, but this is not what i am saying. (Remember former atheist here! I “get” you, and you are welcome to read this and join in)


Please, anyone add if you have had similar experiences, or if you can help thehigher with this issue.


Most people run into the intellect as a barrier even when sitting down to do meditation, they somehow cannot get their mind to “STOP”. I think this is a first experience that many taking a spiritual path can relate to, but i will go a bit further than experience in this message.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Hello thehigher


You peaked my interest with a few of your posts, your pleasant character, and your girl troubles [ENFJ flirtation], you started a thread about trying to relate to this girl...so perhaps it got me thinking about relationships, and initially i was truly on my end, really thinking about the “INFJ single” thread a lot, and was woken up from my misery of single-ness, and then inspired in a way to explain this spiritual concept to you. For me, thoughts, feelings, dreams, visions, kind of mash up into one, so you will notice the choppy start to my thinking process, but after a spiritual experience thought i had, how more easily my words flow, and i am able to get deeper into the spiritual question, that you asked me, about how the intellect can be a barrier to spiritual progress. My answer is not all intellectual, so maybe you can see the contrast between spiritual experiences, and me putting it together in words, so that may answer your question indirectly also, about relationship between intellect and spiritual energy.


This is my attempt to answer this question, as i can only relate my experience of this lesson that i learned about two years ago, and i am still learning about it every day. When the time comes for you to experience the answer to your question fully, for yourself, you will know all that i am talking about using (these words) or if you can feel the meaning of the words, then go ahead. Please try not to over intellectualize! I think i leave myself pretty open when trying to explain spiritual concepts. Gratitude for your thoughtful question, thehigher.
 

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I felt discouraged about a week ago, at the bus stop, the experience came into my mind, about my spiritual teacher telling me, that i have to get past the barrier of my intellect, in order to get into understanding the spiritual realm. This perplexes me, but i understand this better than i did in the past, i was given this lesson about two years ago, so i have to make an attempt at answering thehighers question as soon as possible, as it was asked so genuinely, i have to respond, i thought.
I woke up suddenly at 2:00am one morning the next day...wait a minute [i thought] a flash of insight: i understand the concept that there is an element of the opposite within each side of duality, and that all is one, except on opposite sides of a coin. But my thoughts were disrupted, because my father, who likes to watch movies, was roaming around the house late at night, also my puppy ruby was rustling around, and i got incredibly irritated and distracted, and i lost my thought for two hours! I was just so furious inside.


So what i was left with of the thought [thoughts for me start in like a dream state] and if i remain resting, i kind of put it together in my dream and then wake up with an idea. So then i tried to go back to rest, and get my mind back on track, but i couldn’t all i had were fragments:


Divine mother
Heart of darkness
Shakti and shiva
Love swelling in my heart
Then feeling squashed like a pancake – feeling like roadkill
Then i thought of dinner the night before, i had a hamburger, which is probably why i felt so down!
Also kind of becoming distracted by unavailable men, i seem to find types that i like, that are taken [feeling more ill]


Then i was getting upset at myself! Had i taken austerity seriously, then i would have been able to retain knowledge in my mind, regarding spiritual matters, and reduce my desires, instead of being ill...
I was trying to put together my understanding about that saying “two sides of one coin” and “duality” in spiritual perspective together for over three years! So i was kind of pissed, that i was disrupted from sleep...not really a good spiritual quality, i rarely get upset. I know intellectual knowledge and spiritual knowledge, for me, takes a while to put it together in my head, thoughts can rattle around for years, so i understood that i could really not get to where i was [the flash of insight] again for another few more months, if i didn’t get it back the same night.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Two hours later, still trying to put it all together...[4:00am]


I have a vision of divine mother, kind of like mother mary, but she was glowing in pink, then i saw mother durga [warrior aspect, in gold], and thought a little of her counterpart, lord shiva, and also of maya “the great illusion”...in the end of this glimpse, divine mother, in pink is laughing at me, and smiling, she winks, and then goes away...i think kind of laughing at my two hour misery [i was really punishing myself in my mind, because of my carelessness in diet, and spiritual practice over the past few weeks], of losing my train of thought, and possibly losing an important lesson about love that i have been waiting to learn for years. So my eyes opened to see her, and this broke me out of my misery state. She laughs because they know all of what we are thinking and how we interact in this world, and even with my best efforts i know only a little, so a little glimpse is what i am offered in this night, to go on with understanding this topic...


My misery breaks a little...and my thoughts can now flow more clearly:


In each expression there are positives and negatives. This is why most deities are depicted in two forms, savior and destroyer [duality], like two persons in one- complexity is comforted by simplicity. But these two expressions are of the same energy:
As a restless mind filled with doubts never rests, and cannot experience bliss...i understand that:
-nothing is as it seems when trying to connect with people, especially in love issues
- and there is nothing cool about being misunderstood, (single or not single) or not being a full potential expression (connected with another person, or fully connected to the divine) and this is related to acheiving happiness.


Then my mind fortunately wanders to the thought of divine mother, finally helping me out of my miserable distress, i sat upset at myself for two hours in bed, for carelessly losing my train of thought. So then i thought also of mother earth – maya form [white], mother durga [gold], and divine mother [pink]. The three mothers...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Now that my thoughts are even clearer, i can say...


Spiritual principle transcends duality. [my mind remembers a past experience] I remember my first job, i have never met anyone more wicked, than the woman used to work for, but my kindness towards her did not stop regardless of what she did, because i understood at a deep level that he actions sprout from sadness. So the love principle i connected with at that time, over-rode my desire to fight back, and be mean to her in response (most of the time). This was a challenging experience, but obviously i learned from it.


So to elevate the mind to see beyond good and evil, and activate the “super soul” [notice german philosophy] unlocking our true potential as individuals is our mission. [this i learned from a female saint] maybe kind of linking to my vision earlier of “mother”.


And we learn this spiritual principles or lessons through a series of encounters, and relationships with people, that seem dual (two people, two ways of learning), but these learning experiences we share with others are of one expression, through different paths.
Thus there is truth in both sides of the coin, but not perfection on either side, each side compliments the other.


My thinking always goes back to INFJ man, with whom i have found a deep connection. Always by thinking of him, i can attain perfection in my thinking, his energy compliments mine well. So this is what makes me think of the combination of energy that inspires maximum growth and learning. The ingredient (catalyst) for learning, for a spiritual person who is aware that all encounters are learning experiences, is the desire for absolute truth. This desire is the ultimate motivation, and ultimate satisfaction of this desire is unification with spiritual energy. Sex energy, and lust, is only experience of bliss at the lowest level. All people benefit and learn from encounters, one way or another a persons perspective determines how aware they are of what they are learning.


I got a glimpse of “maya”, all of these men i seek are just an “illusion”, or a shadow of what my true capabilities of understanding the universe. This is why divine mother, seemed to be laughing at me when i saw her in my mind, she kind of “winked”.


Maya is an illusion, so my mind is tricking me into feeling incomplete and unsatisfied (desire) but it is my intellectual definition of desire and fulfillment that is limited, and the limitations of my physical body and mind (intellect) are holding me back from my spiritual growth –


So then i am trying to resolve a spiritual problem by physical means (trying to find a partner, and then expecting to be “happy” when he arrives) which can cause suffering, and my restlessness will never subside, but it is also an expression of my lack of maturity, i am a child in spiritual knowledge, i have to “grow up” in a spiritual sense, and somehow these two lessons are linked for me. [relationships and spiritual progress].


So i am aware there is a person who is to arrive in my life, and it is my progress that is delaying our meeting, not his.


So then who is right, and who is wrong? In the meeting of two halves of a whole? We are only looking into a mirror.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So then by taking a spiritual path, i am not hindering fulfillment of desire, by losing my attachment to my ideals of love in my mind, and surrendering this energy to the divine, i will get what i want.


This desire that i think will be liberating (seems liberating), is really an attachment in disguise, as i suffer my physical desires every day, as desires get greater, my suffering too increases. But to let go of it all, will be a step into a higher level of understanding, there will be greater levels of bliss, and a unity with the divine, or with some person, that will be experienced when i let go of my security blanket (attachments).


So the path of me being single is not different from the path of persons in couples, (it is not an them vs me equation) just that i am being blinded by worldly desires, i missed the boat...we are seemingly opposite people all moving towards the same goal (love, happiness, fulfillment) in different ways.


Thus, my heart and mind loves, and feels run over like road-kill, [pancake feeling] whenever i feel unfulfilled, rejected, but in all this mess, i am the one missing the point of my journey (which is the opposite side of coin) by wanting to be a happy couple type, instead of a single type of person. But more importantly for me, Because of my disatisfaction with this situation, i have gained progress in spiritual understanding, because of desire to seek the truth, and this seems to be my motivation, not really “finding a partner”, even though i think that is what i am looking for.


[ok thehigher, don’t fall asleep yet, i am getting to answering your question, almost]
 

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So in this material world, dual expressions lead to understanding that “things are not as they seem”, this is one of the parts of answering how intellect is a barrier to understanding [understanding duality] this is the state of living on material plane. I understand how both paths [being single, and not being single] although opposing, have contain similarities.


I am relieved of so much needless pain in this moment. I have also learned not to eat negative food (some austerity is important on spiritual path), so that i feel like road kill, and that how my mind is so limited, even in my best attempts i could never define the spiritual concept of duality intellectually without experiencing it.


I want to also show how the mind and intellect compared to spiritual experience of understanding, moves so slow, and is easily disrupted (negative frequencies). My lesson (for myself) out of all of this is to do more spiritual practice, and not worry about worldly desires, that will sort themselves out [dominoe effect] if i just focus all my energy on the divine. The beauty of spiritual experiences, as you may have seen for yourself, is that the outcome is always beneficial to many, and each person that experiences it with me, gets whatever lesson that is required for them, thus i always try to share, whenever something happens that i think relates to another person...


I have been inspired by another INFJ also, that is spiritual and actually follows laws of austerity, and by another INFJ who is to me male perfection, and he has inspired me to think that, should there be the right man for me, he will walk into my life. I was kind of feeling moody in the “INFJ single” thread, so this brought on this thought of the dual aspect of how love and relationships divide people [single, and non-single] and how these two types of people seem different, but are somehow the same, they both are human, they both have desires, fulfilled and unfulfilled, and both are on a path to their destination, so there is duality, with similarities on either side of the coin. I am on the “single” side of this aspect, being miserable, but i have just realized that being “single” is just part of my lesson of spiritual growth right now, and others have spiritual growth in couple ways, and i shouldn’t be down on myself for not finding the “right” partner, because maybe i am just where i need to be right now. Meaning, if i don’t seek “the higher” consciousness, i will likely stay on the lowest level of satisfaction [physical sex, lust, desire], which i cannot accept because the soul is relentless in its mission to attain realization, and i just have to be ready to go with, instead of being my own worst enemy to my own spiritual progress (being attached to my own physical and intellectual limitations).
 

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So finally, the higher! i am here, now ready to address your question, how logic gets in the way of spiritual understanding, in more detail [somehow i had your question on my mind, but i got this image of duality instead, and went with it] I just needed the right experience, to kind of illustrate this relationship between intellectual and spiritual experience, and how intellect can be a barrier to understanding the subtle.


So once tapped into, the energy of the soul is stronger, and guides the lesser urges “physical” and “psychological”, thus leading a person to their destination, an attached person feels all the pleasure and pain of each lesson in the journey (repeatedly in the same situations if a person doesn’t grow) if they are not progressing, but an unattached awakened mind, sees only progress and their destination [minus excess suffering].


So when a smaller set of challenges are overcome, and a new set of problems arise, it can be a sign of progress. In an intellectual person’s perspective only, they may not have the ability to see beyond their own mind, and may not understand, the occurrence of problems, and the resolution of problems as being part of a larger picture of spiritual progress, because they are too involved with analysis of problems at intellectual level only, or even attachment to their problems.


So then, not by intellect alone, i am learning, i learn through experience of spiritual concepts, and the odd insight, which as you see has to be interpreted, a vision dream that i have to learn from, or spiritual lessons are kind of more like photographs, and i use my intellect as more secondary thing of trying to put it all together, and explain it. It is not my intellect that directs me, saying, “let me dream of divine mother tonight...”, and then i’ll put together the meaning of duality...NO it is the opposite, energy is inbound, then i have to figure it out.


So back to the idea, in spirituality a person learns by experience of all concepts, this is the spiritual way; as my teacher (at highest saint level) says, experience is of 98% importance, and intellect is only of 2% importance in the realm of spirituality [space beyond our mind and intellect, and five senses]. What is exciting about spiritual experiences, is that i can go back to the experience, and feel the same energy all over again. Also the experience may not always be about me, i think really part of what i am learning here, is somehow helping you “the higher” figure something out too. I think your questions are intellectual, but lately i think you are having an issue with love, so maybe this is why the best example i could come up with for duality, had to do with love and being single.


Gratitude, i can now put my thoughts of unhappiness of [not finding a partner] aside and move on. I have been healed just by posting a few grumbling posts among INFJs about me being single on the “INFJ single” thread, i am certain someone helped me indirectly.


INFJ man does not know it, but every time i speak to him [i spoke to him earlier], i have some sort of revelation. I think he wants to help me and he is capable of doing it just by presence alone- something is up with him! Or maybe it is me, i need the right inspiration to emerge, but then the next step for me is to be more self-sufficient, and more self-motivated i guess.
 

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This brings me to the latest warning i got in spiritual class. [i just cause quite the commotion, everywhere i go, don’t i?] One of my teachers asked/told me, annoyingly: “Why! do you need someone in human form all the time as company? I thought what kind of question is this, are they on drugs? It is said in class that i should learn to connect with divine energy, and know the presence of my spiritual teacher, who is always with me, and i can talk to him without having him there physically beside me. I guess i am starting to understand this concept.



In material world, I am so attached to my desires it is blinding my sight, i can only imagine a physical person to be near to me, and cuddle me, but that is what i “want”, not what i “need” and i cling onto this ideal like my security blanket, like when i find the right man, i can settle and be normal, and never think of spiritual practice every again! And have full enjoyment of lust factor, as you all have seen my drive gets out of whack when mingled with another “sex” energy type of person [note the diary]. But this is where i am fooling myself because desire for absolute truth [spiritual practice] in me is like 10x greater than my physical and intellectual desires, so seeking to fulfill my need in those ways is not going to work for me.[note spiritual men, I am NOT who you thought i was, if you literally read my prior posts, i just haven’t had a chance to express myself spiritual yet on here, it is tricky, but spirituality is always my first love] This does not mean that there will not be a partner, just means i have to grow up. All occurs in time on earth, but spiritual practice is timeless and the sooner i “get over myself (reduce ego)” the faster i will experience true bliss, as all on earth are entitled to, if we can open up our eyes to see it.


The key to this equation is “surrender” allowing the window of the soul knowledge to open, letting love be a guide instead of “intellect”. As with each change step in spiritual advancement, or when we resolve challenges in our lives, which each love disappointment that seems to be another dead end, there will be a death of a part of you, and you have to learn to be ok to leave that person behind.


In order to engage in deep spiritual connections (relationship with divine, or other people), we don’t have to “get” each other [intellectual], more of a chemistry reaction kind of happens, and two souls communicate with each other on a deep level. I think this is the main thing i wanted to tell you, thehigher, and other intellectual types, because i think in one of your stories of love you were saying how you couldn’t “get” what to say to the girl you liked, and the way she was behaving kind of perplexed your logical approaches. Love is sometimes not about is not about you “getting” a girl, it is about chemistry.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am not saying there isn’t a place for intellectuals or that worldly knowledge is not useful or important. It is. The world is graced with so many scientists, and intellectuals, that make life better, but to pursue the higher perspective [spiritual law], and universal principle, surrender is required, because it is likely that you may start to see things and feel things that may not be explained by “science” and i find intellectual types miss the point a lot, even when understanding spiritual concepts, just because it is knowledge they might not be aware of, some deem it as irrelevant (ego), or they cannot go to a place in their mind, where they have to start over, and relearn what they thought was “true” and have to develop a new understanding based on a deeper experience with universal energy.


Another odd thing i observe in western perspective is the disconnect, how many great philosophers and mathematicians, scientists, and economists (yes, economics, i find adam smith suspiciously spiritual, and most people i have met who studied economics, went easily into spiritual paths)....well while their ideas are discussed, their lives and spiritual views are not discussed at the same time, but i guess de-spiritualizing knowledge is important to teaching their theories without further complications, and is required to teach masses of people who take no interest in spiritual affairs. But even Einstein himself read ancient scriptures of the east, and was thoroughly impressed. Most of his philosophy is eastern influence.


Also i don’t see intellectuals or science types as cold mechanical people, as most of them try to front as, i seem them as soft hearted types, with a simple unwavering passion for knowledge, most of what they do helps others too. They should not be afraid of connecting with others – besides the whole geek thing they have going on is kind of hot...
Humans are spiritual beings, even scientists and intellectuals, have needs for love, belonging, and connection, although they express it differently, when looked at this way, depending on how they apply their intellectual abilities, will determine their ability for spiritual advancement, which is not the same as worldly advancement.
I say this with some experience. I was a natural once at math and science [maybe INFP, or INTJ when i was younger] at one point. My favourite class was chemistry, but one day i woke up unsatisfied, and left that path to pursue “the truth” not the mathematical or physical application of energy. (this, not my brightest financial decision, but depends on who you talk to!) My parents think i am an idiot, but my spiritual family thinks i am brilliant, and in my own element. But what matters is what “god” thinks, and what i feel to a certain degree. But there is a secret of abundance in all this, if spiritual efforts are made honestly, somehow, i will never have to worry about wealth, shelter or food. Spiritual people will tell you this, to an intellectual based person this idea seems ridiculous, but actually happens (there is a spiritual science to this concept also)


So i started my journey in an “intro to philosophy” class, and never looked back. Well my point is that its awesome to be brainy, and intellectual, but to think that somehow this is going to advance you in spirituality, not likely, because you may have to bust through barriers of conventional ways of thinking in your mind, to get connections that are more readily accessible to simpler minded people, or people who have done lifetimes of spiritual practice, and these people may appear in forms you may not even understand, like spiritual evolved children, deities that you may not have seen before but whose mantras can transport you, unexplained visions, fragrances of roses and incense when there is none around in the physical, experience of bliss...etc


This type of stuff can be seduction to curious minds, and can even be a brain overload, for an intellectual. People get frustrated. Another aspect of intelligence too is lust.
Lust for knowledge is almost to me, comparable to physical lust. [the feeling is similar also]. I see people try to make themselves seem more sophisticated by adding “intelligence” to their list of demands when looking for a partner, and themselves boasting their intellect...these are all good things, but not much different than satisfying physical lust, both experiences are at physical, psychological level of understanding, not at the spiritual level.


(but this leads to another topic altogether, worldly advancement and spiritual advancement may not always be mutually exclusive). Other factors like level of attachment, destiny, karma, spiritual level of a person, etc shape a picture of whom is spiritually advanced, and who isn’t. This determination is not an undertaking of a person who can only see with their physical eyes, or by psychological means.
 

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Ok back to philosophy - i think the first step in my spiritual journey (to opening up my mind) was by learning about Socrates, this specific quote:“As for me, all I know is that I know nothing” Being able to be comfortable with “not knowing” and with the “unknown” really started to transform my mind. Initially i pursued all kinds of spiritual knowledge in an intellectual way, until my teacher then refused to answer any of my intellectual questions any longer “to satisfy my lust for knowledge”, and he told everyone else in spiritual class, to no longer answer my intellectual questions either! (only to answer true questions relating to spiritual progress only, regarding spiritual practice).


[the higher this is really the lesson i was referring to, when i told you that intellect can be a barrier to spiritual progress]


Me being overly intellectual in the past, and always picking debates, “why does this scripture say this? What era was lord jesus born in? Why is lord jesus not mentioned in ancient scripture? Whom is lord Buddha an incarnation of? Why is there terrorism? On, and on, and on...i can go on for weeks with intellectual questions about spirituality! My poor teachers were bombarded by my questions...so i had to be stopped! My intellect was picking debates, and was disrupting class, my own progress, and other seekers progress (seekers of truth). Note: the Gita, as an example of scripture, is translated as “song of god” meant to be heard [not debated], the vibration of Sanskrit verse awakens a dormant soul – reading it properly is not to be confused with an intellectual exercise btw.


So the spiritual lesson my teacher was trying to instill in me: yes, i was initially hurt, when he declared that he would no longer answer my intellectual inquiries, But i was told that, i am now ready to enter the subtle plane of understanding spirituality (without books, but by experience and increasing sixth sense ability) and he wanted to break the intellectual thought barrier in me. At first i was scared, my books and intellectual thinking, again were like another security blanket being taken away! I was being thrown into the deep end of the pool, and how can i swim? But i learned, and now i value spiritual literature over intellectual literature, and spiritual experience, over intellectual thoughts about spirituality, because i can feel and understand energy, not just see the “gross” physical side to words, thus taking me to another level.


Spiritual teachers and guides may be in physical form or not, but they are the best teachers, they are always like 6 months or more ahead of your next discovery, and will get you there, even if you are foolish and wrapped up in security blankets of comfort as i am, like i am. (a student’s desire for truth at absolute level is prime ingredient in this process). I have put “intellect” in its place in my life, although my thinking powers are strong, but i know that they are only used when required, not really as relevant in the big picture, as compared to spiritual energy is more powerful, and more of a sustaining energy for me now.
 

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There is spiritual intellect also, that is developed to understand spiritual concepts, but this has little to do with worldly intellect, but operates similarly, i rely mostly on that now. It is an interesting concept. A great saint once said, in spiritual perspective: intelligence not about acquiring knowledge, it is about removing ignorance. So in a process of surrender, not acquisition, greater power and knowledge is gained in this universe.


So then don’t ditch your intellect, just be open to knowledge of the soul, (which may appear in forms that you may not be used to) it is more powerful than intellectual and physical experiences, and when given a chance it will guide you. For those that believe in the divine already, this process is even less difficult, (bhakti yoga, path of devotion is one of the fastest paths to liberation) surrendering your mind and intellect to your aspect of divine (lord jesus, lord Buddha, lord shiva etc) and ask for guidance, once under proper guidance, you are then able to function in life (act) when needed, and in ways for your spiritual progress (but this surrender topic is vast, maybe another day i’ll elaborate).


There is a lesson about the intellect i read in another saint’s book, if i may again paraphrase: the mind/intellect is your enemy and your best friend, it has little control over your desires, and misused will hinder you, and even can harm others. It is best to have your soul energy in charge of mind and intellect, this keeps you safer and less lost on your journey.


Hope this helps thehigher-


And anyone else that has chosen to read my posts.
 

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Female INFJ, I have a request for you: Every time you make posts like this please let me know. This was awesome. I bet if we knew each other we would have many interesting things to talk about lol but that's destiny.

Thank you so much for this....really no joke...thank you for this.
 

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And into the garden a serpent did creep...

I'll tell you right now, I'm one of those analytic types, but... I'm also huge fan of classic daoist and zen buddhist thought, so, of course, I have a few questions.
Firstly, what kind of stuff are you basing this off of?
(It sounds rather akin to some medieval Hindu schools [what with Shakti and the like], but I am not familiar enough with them yet to determine which school you're closest to.)
Have you ever studied quantum physics and cosmology?
Isn't the boundary between intellect and spirit a kind of maya itself?
(Again, approaching from 2500 year old Daoist perspective, it is important to note that mysticism a != mysticism b.)
 
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