Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
My ESFJ wife and I were invited to Thanksgiving by her best friend. Wife asked me if I wanted to go or not. I told her that whatever she decided was fine with me. She said that she really didn’t feel like going and would rather spend Thanksgiving quietly at home with me. I told her that was fine with me. She expressed that she felt like she was letting her friend down by not going but again reiterated that she was tired and wanted to stay home.

We go home and she has me order Thanksgiving for the two of us online (she doesn’t cook often). I will pick it up tomorrow morning.

This morning, while driving to work, she is stressing out about something unrelated. She gets angry with me and said that she wished I wouldn’t have made her order food and that she wishes we would’ve just just gone to her friends because she would’ve had fun.

I’m baffled. I didn’t do anything other than support her choice. I honestly believe that she is just angry about something else and taking her apprehension about declining her friend’s invitation out on me.

Someone please tell me how do I deal with this aspect of ESFJ behavior? I often find myself in damned if you do and damned if you don’t situations. Her emotions become my problem and I can’t figure out how to avoid a fight with her when she seems willing to make things my fault- always.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,114 Posts
First of all: that sounds like there's a deeper problem at hand. Maybe it's time to talk to her about what's actually going on.

One thing you should know about Fe-users: we don't actually know what we want. We just try to find out what others want and go with that. My hypothesis is that your wife thought you might want to stay at home together and that's why she told you that. (although there could be tons of other reasons of course). If she's going by what she thinks you want, rather than what she wants, that could explain why she set the whole thing up.

Otherwise, maybe she told others about the whole thing and people reacted negatively. It's possible that she had some negative feedback and is trying to make peace with the whole thing.

In any case: I think it's long overdue to talk about the larger issues. Talk to her about her friends, about how she sees the future and what she'd like to do in the short term. Fe-users only find out what they want by talking to others. Maybe you'll get to the larger issue that way.

Maybe it's already a bit late by now. I know it's been almost a week since you asked the question. Anyway, I hope this is useful in some way.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
@forks

At the risk of sounding like a broken record. Okay, not a risk; to sound like a broken record...
I will say this. Very normal. Not even so much unhealthy for an ESFJ to do that. A little childish
to be sure.

Not being culpable. Not unusual for an ESFJ in emotional situations. You already have half of the issue
sorted dont you? You know it is other factors that are driving the concern not the event that she is
tying it to. So out the gate? You have half the puzzle put together. If we are to get down to the root
of what the issue may be we need to leave the whole thanksgiving he said she said out of it.
That seems to be irrelevant. I will walk away from speaking about the specific instance and speak
on the behavior now.

Okay. For myself and I can assume you as an NT type. We like to talk about the plan and
then make the plan. Easy. We may forget dates and what not but for the most part if we commit
to doing something a certain way we usually will role with it. We said we would so we do.
We do not stop and feel it out. We have already made the decision. Its a go. We may manipulate,
we may scapegoat we may push out but we will almost never flat out deny that we did agree to it
at one point. ESFJ can become emotionally disrupted and lose sight of the above. For a plethora of
reasons. Valid in as far as how the feel about it. Honestly? Their emotional validity is just as important
of a factor when doing these items and should be taken as serious.

Now I am going to speak a truth that I have noticed.
My ESFJ pushes me to do things. She talks me into stuff. She says it will be good for me.
I fight it from time to time and then she lays down a solid argument about why my thinking
is one sided to myself. Let me give an example.

Every year my family has two big family get together-s. One at Christmas, one in the summer.
I always commit to going to the family months before simply since it seems so far away that
I dont even care. Well when the time starts creeping up and I have to plan to actually go to
the damn thing I try everything under the sun to dodge it. I committed so if I have to I have to.
That said I totally use any tool I have to find a reason I cant go. Well my ESFJ knowing this always
steps in and convinces me to go. SHe points out all the reasons I should and pushes me. Why?
There is no vested interest for her to do so (well there is but not from an NT stand point).
It is my extended family. She could even skip going and get off okay. So why does she push me?
Why, when I say I dont care to go does my ESFJ make a concerted effort to push me into it?
She knows. SHe knows I will regret it. She see's the forest from the trees. SHe feels it out.
SHe says "Lets go for your mom". or "You always feel great about going when we get back".
"You mean a lot to these people you need to do this".

What I am getting at here forks is this. My ESFJ pushes me to do items that I do not
want to do but may need to do. Even if I cant see it. It took me a long while to appreciate this.

Why am I going at this from the opposite stand point? Well because ESFJ need to be pushed
form time to time as well. Maybe what your ESFJ needed from you was not for you to agree with her.
Maybe what your ESFJ wanted was her man to push, even at the cost of an argument.
Maybe your ESFJ needed you to step in and say "No. we need to do this baby. This will be
nice and you have the invite. We should do this" "How about this.. if we go and you are still
not feeling it I will find us an out okay?"

Having a "yes man" that just agrees with everything is not what most people want.
Not saying you do that. At all. But you may be doing it on what she has say over and
think it is for the greater good.
"Well my ESFJ says she doesn't like it so it must be!" Really? Your ESFJ knows everything about herself? I think not.

How many times has your ESFJ pushed you to a goal that you may have dodged if not for her push?
How many times has that worked in reverse?

Food for thought.
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
All valid points and very good advice. Thank you both for your help. I guess that I didn’t see how her decisions are not set in stone. I’m definitely flying blind with her emotional decision making process. To me, I just thought she was being flighty. She often makes plans and changes them according to how she feels later. That bothers me- especially when it concerns our time together. She will say that we will spend time together later and then change her mind based on her day/mood. INTJs tend to expect others to follow through with what they say and get really pissed about changes to plans. I will definitely make a greater effort to push her to do what she needs to do and not just what I would prefer her to do. I will also try to understand her fe decision making process.

Now, I am in an even deeper crisis. The crisis started because she looked at my face and asked me what was wrong. I suppose her fe detected that something was wrong with me, but nothing was wrong. I told her that. She kept pushing me and I mistakenly tried to explain to her that I was tired( I was!). Anyways, I did it with words that she took personally. She said that I wasn’t smiling and happy to see her. I was happy inside, as always, but I simply had a very long day at work. I said that just because I wasn’t smiling doesn’t mean something was wrong. I get that she can smile whenever she chooses, but when I’m exhausted my face tends to be neutral. Some people perceive my face as mad or irritated when I am simply content.

Long story short, she blew up on me. Full fe rage fest. Demanded that I apologize for taking my bad day out on her. Screamed and acted out like a total teenager, insulting me and saying really hurtful things. She told me to get out of the house because I will never change. She said I am just brooding and unhappy and nothing will ever change.

To me, none of this was true. I simply made the mistake of disagreeing with her assessment of my behavior and intentions. I would never take a bad day out on her- I love her. The truth is that she had a rotten day herself. I didn’t respond supportively, from her ESFJ perspective, which I assume means smiling and pampering her instead of just being myself. She projects her willingness to be fake for the sake of others onto me. Since I wasn’t smiling and pampering, that means to her that I didn’t care. She got furious and ascribed all sorts of bad intentions to me- she said that I was being abusive to her. That is absolutely untrue. She just can’t see my emotions and she constantly misreads me. All I wanted was to drive her home and take care of her needs. What prevented that for me was her being furious and accusing me of completely untrue intentions.

I tried explaining myself to her but that just made everything worse. What can I do to repair this? She is demanding an apology but if I apologize for what she wants that would make me guilty of what she says I’m doing. I’m not guilty of anything! She says it’s all my fault that she went berserk. I think it’s all her fault for not being willing to actually listen to my side of things.

Thank you all for your time. I’m in a really difficult place here.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
All valid points and very good advice. Thank you both for your help. I guess that I didn’t see how her decisions are not set in stone. I’m definitely flying blind with her emotional decision making process. To me, I just thought she was being flighty. She often makes plans and changes them according to how she feels later. That bothers me- especially when it concerns our time together. She will say that we will spend time together later and then change her mind based on her day/mood. INTJs tend to expect others to follow through with what they say and get really pissed about changes to plans. I will definitely make a greater effort to push her to do what she needs to do and not just what I would prefer her to do. I will also try to understand her fe decision making process.
In all honesty if a logical reason came up for you to break plans you would.
Her maintaining the plans is more correlated to emotion than logic. So you
both can do it. You have a hard time with her way and she will most likely
have a hard time with yours. They are both a means to the same end.
They are both valid and invalid at the same time. Case by case.


Now, I am in an even deeper crisis. The crisis started because she looked at my face and asked me what was wrong. I suppose her fe detected that something was wrong with me, but nothing was wrong. I told her that. She kept pushing me and I mistakenly tried to explain to her that I was tired( I was!). Anyways, I did it with words that she took personally. She said that I wasn’t smiling and happy to see her. I was happy inside, as always, but I simply had a very long day at work. I said that just because I wasn’t smiling doesn’t mean something was wrong. I get that she can smile whenever she chooses, but when I’m exhausted my face tends to be neutral. Some people perceive my face as mad or irritated when I am simply content.

Long story short, she blew up on me. Full fe rage fest. Demanded that I apologize for taking my bad day out on her. Screamed and acted out like a total teenager, insulting me and saying really hurtful things. She told me to get out of the house because I will never change. She said I am just brooding and unhappy and nothing will ever change.
Forks. You need to contrive emotional responses even when you feel it unnecessary.
Your emotional body language is as important to her for communication as
your logic and reason are for you. Again, they are both valid. We as NT may not
see the reason we need to look upset or show physical signs of being pissed off
or angry. If my ESFJ tries to listen to my words and understand how I feel she might
as well be reading hieroglyphics. SHe will get more pissed at me in a fight over
how I am responding about it based on my lack of emotion then what started the fight
in the first place. She would rather I show my anger. She would rather I show my
feelings. In all things. This is how they communicate. Just like we communicate via
very sterile means. Look. I am not saying lie or don't be yourself. She has to meet you in
the middle as well. But we do... in life, have to contrive emotional responses all the time as NT.
Its a must. It is part of society. Its an S(F)J world out there. We are the ones that bear the onus
of conformity if we would like to fit in.


She just can’t see my emotions and she constantly misreads me. All I wanted was to drive her home and take care of her needs. What prevented that for me was her being furious and accusing me of completely untrue intentions.
Exactly what I am speaking on above. Exactly. How can one learn if one
has no base material to go off of? She needs to see that emotion.

I tried explaining myself to her but that just made everything worse. What can I do to repair this? She is demanding an apology but if I apologize for what she wants that would make me guilty of what she says I’m doing. I’m not guilty of anything! She says it’s all my fault that she went berserk. I think it’s all her fault for not being willing to actually listen to my side of things.

Thank you all for your time. I’m in a really difficult place here.
Apologize my man! Why not? You dont have to apologize for how you feel.
You can say sorry for how she feels though. You can apologize for the situation.
You can apologize for your inadequacies in being able to understand her. All of the
mentioned apologies do not imply guilt on anyone's part. They imply that you are sorry
it came to this. Its not a lie. You are sorry. I mean the opposite would be you
are glad it went there and that is not true.


Let me either scare the hell out of you or put your mind at ease a bit here.

My ESFJ an I have been together for damn near 20 years now.
Well not even a week ago we got into a fight. We dont fight often.
few times a year at most (We argue, but fights are rare).

Whelp the whole argument was about how I wanted to get diamond rings for
our granddaughter. She was very upset with me over this. She did not like the
fact that I wanted to get 18k gold as The rings I have bought her are not even
18k gold. My reasoning? When I looked up getting infants ears pierced they
said the higher the gold content the less chance of infection. To me it seemed
like the right logical choice. My ESFJ was not having it. To her it meant that my granddaughter
was clearly more important. She even went as far as to call me out on her weeding band
and engagement ring and everything! after 20 years bro! She was jealous of our granddaughter.
Completely irrational. Or was it? What it really came down to is for the last 4 months I have
been going ga ga for our grand-kind at the cost of time to my wife. It snowballed.
The fight got to the point where she suggested that I leave. I kid you not.
So why did I not panic and freak out? Because. Thats her. That is her venting. That is
her way of dumping her emotions. That is her way of saying "fix this I am hurting".
I know this now. I dont take it personal anymore. It hurts sometimes sure. But I
must remember that her going off like that effects me as much as when I show ZERO
emotion and turtle into myself and get quiet. When I do that to her it is the same
effect as her flipping out on me. You are both writing the same book. Remember that.
Your style of writing is point forum and almost clinical. Hers is fluid and cursive.
 

·
Spam-I-am
Joined
·
13,657 Posts
she is immature for placing the blame on you
SHE asked/told you she was tired and wanted to stay home
then she blames you for not having a good time
even though you did what what she asked

have you sat her down and ask her why she is doing this
tbh this is one of the main reasons why I quit dating
 

·
exploring space
ENFP
Joined
·
9,476 Posts
INTJ-ESFJs have a conflict relationship which is one of the most difficult. There are no common cognitive functions and in arguments they both hit each others weak points. INTJs have Fe as the weakest and least valued function (PoLR) while ESFJs have Ni PoLRs. So basically it's all hell breaks loose when you argue, as you hit her weakest point by trying to connect the dots as Ni does and she hits yours which are things like your emotional expression and all things Fe.

I'm not going to say it can't work but it surely requires a lot more awareness and perhaps effort than other types of relationships.
you can read more about it here
Conflicting relations between psychological ("personality") types
Socionics - the16types.info - Conflict Relations
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Fueled: Thank you once again. Your posts always are the most helpful to me because you explain situations thoroughly and in a very easily relatable manner. I can tell that you and I both have many things in common, great wives being one of them, and you honestly give me a lot of hope for the future.

I don’t know how to be more emotionally expressive- yet. I’m really trying. The few times it happened I felt a little wild and out of control. I know that my wife wants to know what I’m feeling, but I don’t think she understands that INTJs spend our entire lives repressing outward displays of emotions. I don’t think that’s because we don’t have them, but rather it’s a way of controlling ourselves. I have intense emotions, but I don’t allow them to interfere with my decision making. The angrier I get, the less emotions I show outwardly. I shutdown my emotions and start reasoning to STOP the situation from getting worse.

With my wife I am learning to walk away when she gets really pissed. I’m realizing that nothing I try to do will stop the fight, only make it worse. That being said, I can use the anger I feel at her hurtful words to allow myself to get angry back. When I’ve done this, and went on the offensive with her, she has backed down but remained upset. She just stops verbally bashing me and starts focusing on the things I said in anger.

I too am learning that she’s going to say ridiculous and hurtful things for no real reason when she’s angry. I honestly don’t think she can stop herself from saying them. It’s just her form of expressing anger. I try not to take her seriously because she usually doesn’t follow through on her threats, nor does she usually mean what she’s saying. She called me the devil the other night. She was furious. A minute later she said she didn’t mean that I was the devil but that the devil was causing all the stress in her life. I told her that it was okay, as I know she didn’t mean the words that she said the way that they sounded but something else. I think that in that moment she understood me better, because she’s always taking my words and using them against me when I never really meant them the way she took them. I could have taken her words to heart and used them against her but I let her off the hook.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
Mr @forks
Fueled: Thank you once again. Your posts always are the most helpful to me because you explain situations thoroughly and in a very easily relatable manner. I can tell that you and I both have many things in common, great wives being one of them, and you honestly give me a lot of hope for the future.
Here's to two great women. The more they frustrate us the more we scramble.
I always have a thought that keeps me grounded when she goes emotionally
nuclear. - As much as she can get ..that mean..the reverse is true as well.
I often wonder. If my wife was unable to show that kind of emotion if she would
still retain the good/happy side of her emotion. I do believe they need both.
The extreme ying to their extreme yang.


I don’t know how to be more emotionally expressive- yet. I’m really trying. The few times it happened I felt a little wild and out of control. I know that my wife wants to know what I’m feeling, but I don’t think she understands that INTJs spend our entire lives repressing outward displays of emotions. I don’t think that’s because we don’t have them, but rather it’s a way of controlling ourselves. I have intense emotions, but I don’t allow them to interfere with my decision making. The angrier I get, the less emotions I show outwardly. I shutdown my emotions and start reasoning to STOP the situation from getting worse.
I do have a leg up on you here if MBTI is to be gods hand. I am an Fe user.
So I do feel as if I can have a handle on it from time to time. Not even close to
our ESFJ who are primary Fe. My Fe is retard status...but it is there.

Think of this Forks. They are primary Fe users. That is their drive. That is
their main way to take in social interaction and indeed life. Now read about Fe.
It is not just a stones throw from how we work it is 50 000 nautical miles.
They might as well be alien to us and us to them.

With my wife I am learning to walk away when she gets really pissed.
Smart move my friend. Expressing anger can be done in a healthy manner. No need to blow up and
make it worse. One person in a relationship doing that is enough.

I’m realizing that nothing I try to do will stop the fight, only make it worse. That being said, I can use the anger I feel at her hurtful words to allow myself to get angry back. When I’ve done this, and went on the offensive with her, she has backed down but remained upset. She just stops verbally bashing me and starts focusing on the things I said in anger.
Well I bet there is times when that is needed. Look, she will learn as well my friend. Will she
completely change her MO? No. But she will learn and grow with you. You can help with this.
The problem I find is that you have to help her when she is in a good mood or at the very least
in neutral. This makes it tough to approach for us. I mean we want them happy. So when they
are the last thing we want to do is poke around their heart and suggest items they do are less then
right. But you may and probably should do this at some point. It does not happen right away obviously.
It takes time. As much as you are learning for example...she vents by poking and belittling me so I will
ignore that for the most part. She will also have to learn (and will given time and communication) that
you are going to turtle some times and that is for the greater good! The opposite would be you
blow up...she blows up everyone blows the fuck up and nothing is accomplished.

She just stops verbally bashing me and starts focusing on the things I said in anger.
Yep. You got this by now. This is how they operate. They want to feed emotion. Again;
When emotions are good this works to an advantage for you that no other type could accomplish.
Yet the opposite most certainly rings true when she is pissed.

I too am learning that she’s going to say ridiculous and hurtful things for no real reason when she’s angry. I honestly don’t think she can stop herself from saying them. It’s just her form of expressing anger. I try not to take her seriously because she usually doesn’t follow through on her threats, nor does she usually mean what she’s saying. She called me the devil the other night. She was furious. A minute later she said she didn’t mean that I was the devil but that the devil was causing all the stress in her life. I told her that it was okay, as I know she didn’t mean the words that she said the way that they sounded but something else. I think that in that moment she understood me better, because she’s always taking my words and using them against me when I never really meant them the way she took them. I could have taken her words to heart and used them against her but I let her off the hook.
Damn forks. You have learned sooo much my man. Through her and your experiences
with her. As well as research such as PerC. When I first spoke with you your above
statements were but a pipe dream of recognition. I dare say you are getting it(her)!

Its hard forks. Truly. I cant stress enough the validity of what you are asking and learning.
Our women seem pretty typical ESFJ. I wouldn't have it any other way at this point.
At a certain point you will almost find when she gets super angry, funny. My recommendation?
NEVER LAUGH !!! HAHAHA .. I did the first few times I settled down with her and realized
it was just her argument fodder. My laughter did not help ..as you could imagine. : )

We are good at rationalizing, our types. Rationalize this: (I know I have said it a few times
but I feel it is the biggest items for me to understand.)

ESFJ love to an extreme I have never known. The can be happy to an extreme that I have never seen
they can be supportive as Atlas holding the world on his back....To achieve this they must allow
for the polar opposite in negative reactions. It is their way. To receive the blessing of all their goodness
is at the behest of dealing with the emotional knee jerk. To my mind? I would never want it
any different then it is. We may tweak, we may change a bit but to change our core is a lie,
folly and indeed a recipe for ultimate failure.
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Another day, another issue... we are renting a second house. The renters aren’t making things easy- go figure. Long story short, I have inherited, and I use that word sarcastically, this house from my divorce after my ex was going to default. This is a major stress in my marriage because it’s baggage. So, I brought in a young couple to rent, giving them six months free rent in exchange for repairs to the house. The six month period is up, but due to unforeseen circumstances we have been paying their utilities and being reimbursed by them for nearly six months. They’re often behind in paying us, which is stressing my ESFJ wife out big time.

This all comes back to feeling versus thinking after some recent developments. One night, I received some messages on Facebook messenger from someone I didn’t know. He claimed that our renters weren’t going to pay us any actual rent and were going to leave the house and screw us out of the money they owed us. I showed my wife the messages (big mistake) and she believed the anonymous stranger. I said that we should proceed slowly but she wanted to confront the renters right away. The renters were late again. My wife and I drive over to talk to them. Only the wife was there, but my wife went at her like a pit bull. She talked aggressively and brought the woman to tears. The next day, my wife felt terrible for being so mad. It turned out that the post office told us that they had held delivery of a money order that the renters had sent us. So they actually weren’t lying.

Proceed to today. The money order was short of what they owed us , so they still owed 300 dollars. I’ve been texting them and they’ve not been cooperative at all, in fact, they’ve been evasive and obnoxious. My wife is becoming less and less patient. She starts live editing my texts because she thinks that what I’m texting isn’t solving things. She demands that the husband meet us this weekend and bring the money owed or we will turn off their utilities (as they are still being paid by us since the renters never transferred them into their own name). He showed up and things quickly got out of hand. My wife was getting in his face and going over her lists of wrongs . The guy started getting defensive. My wife actually told him to shut up, called him a boy, and pointed right in his face. I was trying to calm the situation, as no good will come from such anger. The guy actually said to my wife, no landlord I’ve ever had has talked to me like this. I could see him becoming extremely angry and being male i could sense he might react with violence to continued aggression from my wife. I asked her to stop and to go inside so that I could speak to him alone. She started crying, but eventually went inside. I was talking to our renter and he was breathing heavily and tearing up. He was shaking he was so upset. I tried to explain to him that my wife lets her emotions get the best of her and to just go home to his family. I told him that it’s Christmas and any decision we make will be after that. Just don’t worry, let’s let calmer heads prevail.

My wife was totally out of line. She’s sleeping on the couch tonight because she thinks that I took the renters side against her. She’s been an emotional wreck since the guy left. She says he’s a liar and he will just take advantage of us. I told her she’s right but we aren’t going to turn off the power for his family two weeks before Christmas. We will just deal with it when it’s more appropriate. The poor guy stood outside with me and told me that he will make things right between us. He could be lying but he seemed genuine to me. My wife didn’t help the situation at all by flying off the handle and pointing out every single inconsistency in his stories or being so verbally aggressive. None of that seemed to pertain to the issue at hand, other than being unnecessary emotional drama. Now, I’m the bad guy for telling her to go inside and let me handle it.

As this was all happening, I was thinking of other people’s stories here about the ESFJs in their lives. I was trying to not engage her emotions. So was the guy, but if anyone is constantly attacking you, it’s human nature to defend yourself. I could tell that they were both hotheads and I needed to separate them for everyone’s sake. They definitely weren’t communicating effectively. They’re lucky it didn’t end up in a violent confrontation. My wife is super pissed at me. I’m hoping this blows over and these people pay us , otherwise it’s going to be a bad Christmas.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
@forks

Wow. You are a nice guy forks.

I would have totally ran them into the ground as well.
Albeit with a more level head and solid facts as appose to
making fun of them and hitting them in the heart.

That said. Sometimes down right belittling people is the option that
may (I will stress "may") net quicker results.

Think of it like this, since this is right in our wheelhouse as of late.
Maybe, just maybe they will respond to an ESFJ style approach.
I mean the low and slow just let it go method that seems to be the current
is not working. Clearly. So maybe this is just what the good doctor ordered.

Imagine if you will; Being the bread winner of the home and failing at that.
Then you get someone calling you out on it and basically saying you
are a no good piece of crap that cant care for their family and are also basically
stealing from another family! I mean if that doesn't get someone thinking
about what they are doing then I dont know what will. Hows this guy going
to take it? I cant say for certain but going through due process and assuming
is not getting you the rent so what does that leave?

You must know this by now but just encase.
ESFJ will typically attack anything/one that threatens the stability of their
core group of people. Not only will they attack they will not understand why
the people that are closes to them do not want to attack! They look at items
like this as an invasion into their fiefdom.

Its funny how some people can not handle baggage yet expect
their baggage to be carried.

Within your post I see a lot of favors you did for a young family.
The risk must have been apparent. Anyhow. You have done
a lot for them and as far as I am concerned they are now figuratively taking
food off of your table. Thats crap. I would be super pissed as well. I am sure
they have enough money for their vices and possibly vehicles and what not.
I am sure they are both running year old Iphones at 3 year 2k contracts.
I am sure they still get the little extras.

I get where you are coming from with the holidays and all.
That makes sense to me. This is just bad timing.

What would you think of yourself if you were that guy?
Would you hold quarter for yourself? I wouldn't. I would
be hating on myself. I would fix it. Not only that I would
be sure that the people I owed AND allowing me to live for free were
kept in the fucking loop. I mean that's the very least he could do.

I dunno. I have kids. They changed me in that regard. Every time
someone takes from my family I just automatically think : "They are taking
away from my children." That sets me straight real quick like.

You have to know these people and deal with them a bit.
You have to live with your ESFJ everyday. Im not suggesting
you should yell and cry and what not. But what about a letter that says.
"Eviction notice as of Feb". Sell the damn house and go on a trip with your ESFJ.
They get the holidays and two months to vacate. Your ESFJ has a solid date
to hang her hat on. Win Win. Well the losers that are not
paying rent dont win but that's what happens when you put wants in front of needs.

I know I may seem a little petty in my thought process here. I dont know the full story
But from what I read the way they are dodging you? That seems very telling to me that
they can do something yet are choosing not to. If someone is truly in dire straights they
should have no problem laying that on the table and explaining a reason and indeed solutions.
When people get dodgy it means they have something to hide.
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
You are right, Fueled. My wife’s approach definitely produced results. I’m no fan of these people renting from us, but a lot of their issues seem to be from youth and inexperience. They’re not maliciously doing these things, they just haven’t been in this situation before. They have 3 young children and the wife doesn’t work. As I said, I’m not defending their choices. You can bet your ass were I in that situation that I would definitely handle it differently, but I’m also older and from a different generation. My wife is even more old school and I don’t think she can relate at all to anyone who doesn’t work like she does. The thing is that the guy works almost 15 hours a day and even weekends. I’m not defending him, just trying to show that my INTJness wants to find a solution and not just blow up into an emotional conflict. These people live in my house- I don’t want him to go back to it and set it on fire.

My issue with my wife is that I am literally always the bad guy. She takes out her negative emotions on me. I can’t talk anything out with her, nor can I present the reasons behind my perspective. She simply tries to emotionally overwhelm me.

Example: my daughters arrived home this weekend famished. They didn’t want any of the food that we had at the house. I offered them things, but being picky teenagers they kept scoffing . They wanted to go out to get food. I suggested that we also go to the grocery store, as our selection of foods had run thin. My wife thought my daughters were being spoiled, and being teenagers that’s probably true, but here I am trying to keep 3 separate women happy and come up with a compromise. My wife said we needed to go to the grocery store earlier, but when I came up with my plan, she suddenly didn’t want to go because it was more about my daughters being spoiled than anything else to her. She got all pissed about my plans and passive aggressively got in the car to go with us. We went to eat and my wife was clearly not enjoying herself. We went to the grocery store and she clearly didn’t want to be there. She told me to take my daughters out to the car, while we were in the grocery store, as they didn’t want to be there. I ignored her . When we get home she says, ‘you embarrassed me by making me do something I didn’t want to do’ (go out to eat and then to the grocery store). I didn’t want to go either, but we needed to go!

Here’s the deal though... she got mad at me because I didn’t go out to the car with my daughters when she said to go? What? Why does she find it appropriate to order me around when she states that she’s upset when I do it to her? Ugh. I honestly can’t understand her.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
You are right, Fueled. My wife’s approach definitely produced results. I’m no fan of these people renting from us, but a lot of their issues seem to be from youth and inexperience. They’re not maliciously doing these things, they just haven’t been in this situation before. They have 3 young children and the wife doesn’t work. As I said, I’m not defending their choices. You can bet your ass were I in that situation that I would definitely handle it differently, but I’m also older and from a different generation. My wife is even more old school and I don’t think she can relate at all to anyone who doesn’t work like she does. The thing is that the guy works almost 15 hours a day and even weekends. I’m not defending him, just trying to show that my INTJness wants to find a solution and not just blow up into an emotional conflict. These people live in my house- I don’t want him to go back to it and set it on fire.
I get it forks. You made a call to be a nice guy for a growing family.
I blew it a bit out of proportion. I was a kid that went without due to my
parents choices so my view is somewhat skewed. Totally Judgy on my part
whilst you play the perceiver on that. Just goes to show MBTI can
be unequivocally wrong at times. I will leave that whole scenario
at what it is..one scenario.

My issue with my wife is that I am literally always the bad guy. She takes out her negative emotions on me. I can’t talk anything out with her, nor can I present the reasons behind my perspective. She simply tries to emotionally overwhelm me.
In a world of hurt it is those closest to us that will mete out and indeed receive the most damage.
It is safe. You are safe. You will be there in the morning. She will be there in the morning.
The real game is securing endless mornings ;)
Hey forks...you mention that she try's to emotionally overwhelm you. Is it successful?
Does she emotionally overwhelm you all the time? Like in all arguments or view points?
Is there zero logic or reasoning with her? Basically I get a lot of "all" and "whenever"
and "anything/everything" out of you. Is she that one sided with this? Or is it a matter of semantics and
these items although may be the norm are not always the case?

My wife thought my daughters were being spoiled, and being teenagers that’s probably true, but here I am trying to keep 3 separate women happy and come up with a compromise.
Holy effin christ all mighty. I do not envy you at all. I have two boys.
I couldn't even imagine three women. My ESFJ had to deal with three dudes.
She was the princess and she liked it. She had 100% control over stereotypical
female gender role items. No one questioned her nor did we want to. My eldest son
an ESFJ would butt heads with her at times over who used what drier sheet or folded the
socks wrong or some shit like that but nothing serious.

A compromise with an ESFJ who does not want to do something works like this:
-They begrudgingly do it and refuse to do it with gusto or fervor.
(some damage control later..usually in the form of making them feel more
special then whatever the item they didnt want to do includes)

-They down right dont do it and adamantly refuse that you dont.
(dont do it. This will form a lasting grudge)

-They dont do it, say it is okay that you to do it.. but its not. You find that
out later after you thought it was okay and did it.
(..in this case the best thing you can do is make up for it kinda like above.
Just pander and do items you deem irrelevant to the fix but mean a ton to your ESFJ).

I mean why do we take our toddler children to Chucky Cheese and sit there for
3 hours dodging bratty kids and eating pizza that taste like sandpaper sprinkled with pebbles?
We do it because we accept them for who they are and know that is needed.

Forks I dont know if you see this but with my ESFJ I do.
There is a way to placate. It is just counter intuitive
to our way of thinking. A lot of what I do for my wife
to make her feel special I feel like I shouldn't have to.
She should either know this already or as a forgone conclusion.
It frustrates me sometimes.

My wife said we needed to go to the grocery store earlier, but when I came up with my plan, she suddenly didn’t want to go because it was more about my daughters being spoiled than anything else to her.
Huhh..yeah that's jealousy. Get used to it. Your best bet in that scenario is to make the plans through your ESFJ via feeding her the only reasonable solution in a way that she can understand. If she is made to feel that she either made the decision or was a major factor? Then it usually goes a little smoother. Remember back a few post? My wife was pissed at me because
my granddaughter was getting more than her? My granddaughter! 10months old!

Here’s the deal though... she got mad at me because I didn’t go out to the car with my daughters when she said to go? What? Why does she find it appropriate to order me around when she states that she’s upset when I do it to her? Ugh. I honestly can’t understand her.
I will rue the day I can understand my ESFJ. I may only guess. I never want to understand her completely.
I mean what does that leave for newness? I, after 20 years with mine can still get surprised.
That said. I am an ENTP and I love handling stuff like this.
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Fueled: Thanks again, my friend. You’re helping me more than you realize. The things that you say make total sense to me and are always immediately applicable to my relationship. You’re literally of the same value, and even moreso, than a counselor. My last counselor didn’t always understand this issue because she was an ESFJ herself. Many counselors are! She couldn’t get outside of her own personality type enough to see my points.

I will try harder to let my wife feel like she has input in decisions. She really wants to be a bigger part of the process. The major issue I encounter when I try to let her in on the process is that her solutions tend to go against mine. No matter what, she’s not going to fully support my choice because if it goes right, she will dislike it, and if it goes wrong she will feel that it’s all my fault anyway.

About my using wording that implies that I’m not being open... I guess I’m picking up on my wife’s way of communication. She talks in extremes! Before we were married, I talked in a much more open and contemplative way. She started misinterpreting me so often that my words have started to resemble her own. She even complained that my words made no sense to her.

Thank you again. I will return later, but as I’m at work I am short on time. I just wanted to express my continued gratitude to you for your patience and wisdom.
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I’m back... with another dilemma.

So, I’ve fallen ill. Nothing major, just a stomach bug. My wife and I have been getting along great for several days. Yesterday, I was sick at work a few times but I kept working through it. I felt like I could’ve asked to leave, as it would be justified, but I’m a trooper. That said, I felt pretty bad. When we arrived home I was in and out of the bathroom all night.

I set myself up on the couch and pulled a blanket over me. My wife kept asking me what was wrong. I told her that I had been sick at work and I still didn’t feel all that good. She kept coming back and asking me what was wrong. She said I wasn’t acting like myself. Also, we had some chores to do and she decided, after a mini-guilt trip, that I could help her tomorrow night. I felt like she was hounding me so I said that I would just go ahead and carry the boxes up to the attic. She starts saying that she needs to go with me to show me how she wants everything stacked. This irritates me because the attic has no room for two cooks in the kitchen. She says again that we can just wait until tomorrow. I said to her that I felt like I couldn’t even decide to carry some boxes up to the attic on my own because she wouldn’t allow it. I told her that I wanted to help but she is always controlling everything so that I can’t. She said to just sit down and not worry about it.

She started copping an attitude towards me and kept asking me what was wrong with me. I told her again that I felt sick. I just wanted to carry the boxes up to the attic so that she would stop making me feel bad for wanting to sit down.

Fast forward to this morning. She has an attitude and it pissed me off when she said that I had a problem and wanted to start a fight with her. I told her that I felt like she was mad at me for being sick. She proceeds to make some ridiculous and insulting face and pretends to be an all over-dramatically sick version of me, mouthing my words in a pathetic voice. I got angry and yelled what was the point of her being an ass like that? Did she think that was constructive behavior? She denies she even did it and starts saying that men are just pathetic when they get a tiny cold. She said all the women are always saying so. She said I was being a big baby.

Anyways, I honestly cannot believe that she is treating me like this. Someone please explain why ESFJs act like this. I know it’s not just her because my ex mother-in-law did the same thing. Is this just an ESFJ reaction to anyone who puts themselves above others? I mean, if I’m ill I don’t find it selfish to sit down and try to recover.
 

·
exploring space
ENFP
Joined
·
9,476 Posts
this is really nasty behavior and it's sad
to me it sounds like she's lost her ability to empathise with you and expects you to be invulnerable and always there when she wants you, like she has dehumanized you in a way
i don't know how it relates to ESFJs specifically, but I feel there's a certain stereotype in my country about women becoming like that after many years in a relationship (decades usually) and I suspect it could just be xSFJ behavior because they are so common
that was a bit of a tangent but anyway, look at my post in this thread if you haven't, post #7
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,281 Posts
You know Forks a lot of the times we are speaking I am trying to
explain why they act the way they do and how to get through it.

This is an example that I cannot defend for ESFJ. First off ...yes my
ESFJ can and has done similar stuff to me in the past and I am sure in
the future it will come up again. Lets call it what it is. Being a bitch.
No offense my man. Please dont take that as a slight towards your woman.
The truth is ...that is what it is.

In all things within all types people are just going to be bitchy sometimes.
We have to remember that we see the world through rose colored lenses
to them and them to us. ESFJ have a pick up and go mentality when it
comes to life. If we draw a circle and put a dot right in the center.
Now lets assume for a moment that the ESFJ is the dot and the remaining
circle interior is their life. Well they spend almost all of their heart and head
space navigating that circle with nary a thought about the dot. I know this may
seem the opposite given how one sided they seem sometimes but it is truly
the case. If an ESFJ is sick they worry not for being sick. They worry about
how them being sick is going to effect their lives. In lieu of that when someone
else is sick they automatically assume that that person should feel the same way.
I mean we all do it but we all dont live like a little dot. They do. When I am sick
for example I just wanna chill. I wanna sit and relax.

Wait here is a better analogy from my ESFJ and I.
Vacation time. When I take a vacation day for whatever reason I do nothing.
Like nothing. As a matter of fact I probably go backwards. Not only do I do
nothing I make it clear that I am going to be doing said nothing. She never gets this.
She takes a day off and she does all sorts of house cleaning and catching up
on stuff that needs doing. Fuck that. I aint wasting a vacation day on work. WTH is the
vacation if I am cleaning all day. To me it seems detrimental. She considers a vacation
day ruined if she just relaxes. She has to have something to show for it. For all
intense and purposes to her it is an at home work day.

I guess what I am getting at is sometimes it is not a matter of understanding it is a matter
of accepting that is how it is going to be. Voice your concern and be able to be staunch about
it and not care about how she reacts.

You moving the boxes to the addict is a great example! Fuck it. She starts getting all
down and out about it just be real "Im sick...I dont feel like moving and if you are
just going to continue to belittle and hound me I can go to our room or somewhere
else." The damn boxes aren't going anywhere for christ sake! Ill do it in the AM.

We dont always have to agree. We dont always have to understand. Sometimes we just have
to make a choice if we are going to accept the behavior or not. Its the old adage "choose your
battles" In that saying it means to me that if it is something we just cant agree on and
maybe never will? Well each side needs to be able to recognize that through a relationship
these things are going to happen. Sometimes on life belief structures and everything!

ESFJ can hit hard in the heart. There is no rationalization that can be done to
make it right. It just hurts sometimes. That happens. One might say that is the goal.
It is efficient. It gets people moving when maybe they dont want to. The problem is they
might see that as something they need to do even when it does not need to be done.
They all cant be winners....such as it is.

Sometimes a dick move is just that. There is no explanation and this is not only
true for ESFJ it is true for all types. ESFJ can belittle for sure. I wanna throw a hardened
ENTJ gal at ya and she will make the ESFJ look like a god damn dr. seuss book by comparison
in as far as belittling and hounding goes.

Remember man, and I know this is tough but you must get used to this.
I dare say you HAVE to get used to this. They are going to say some very hurtful
knee jerk stuff. It is not going to go away. To this day it can happen with my wife.
I am sure I do it to her as well but I dont notice mine now do I?
 

·
SPOON!
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Red Panda: thank you for your contributions to this topic. I have taken socionics tests and I come up INTJ in socionics. I’ve heard that extroverts remain the same in socionics as MBTI, but I’m no expert. That would make us duality. I don’t really understand how I test INTJ in both socionics and MBTI, but perhaps it has something to do with my enneagram, which comes up 5w4, or sometimes 4w5. I’m just a weird case. I’m an artist and an INTJ. I’m overly sensitive and yet I suppress my emotions. My wife is ESFJ all the way, and the socionics fits her so well it’s scary. Sometimes I believe my wife and I are duals but that we haven’t figured out exactly how to completely trust each other yet. There are plenty of non-type issues for both of us- she was widowed and then lived alone for years, and I grew up without a mother. Those types of major life incidents definitely color our relationship. She’s also 14 years older than I am, and menopausal. We have a lot to work through together. I don’t believe that we have a conflicting relationship though. In fact, we often complement the weaknesses of each other. Since I met her, I had always been intrigued by her, but we took 15 years to get close. She says that we are soulmates. I know that word gets tossed around a lot, but for me to marry a woman so much older than I am, I honestly believe the same thing. I feel differently about her than any of my past relationships. It’s just that we are so close and yet so extremely different from each other. It puzzles me so much.

Fueled: your experiences are my own. My wife never stops working, even on a day off. She will barely sit still sometimes. I’m just like you. I need downtime. I get that I will just have to accept that certain things will never change. Like you, I don’t want them to change. I love my wife so much that I don’t even want the things about her that annoy me to change. Sometimes she is just a bitch. I’m learning from you that I need to just snarl back and stand my ground with her. That’s okay to do and it’s speaking a language she can understand. She doesn’t understand quietly dealing with stress inside my own head. She does understand when I get pissed and yell. She doesn’t like it, but she at least understands it. Thank you again, brother. You’re alright in my book ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,417 Posts
Red Panda: thank you for your contributions to this topic. I have taken socionics tests and I come up INTJ in socionics. I’ve heard that extroverts remain the same in socionics as MBTI, but I’m no expert. That would make us duality. I don’t really understand how I test INTJ in both socionics and MBTI, but perhaps it has something to do with my enneagram, which comes up 5w4, or sometimes 4w5. I’m just a weird case. I’m an artist and an INTJ. I’m overly sensitive and yet I suppress my emotions. My wife is ESFJ all the way, and the socionics fits her so well it’s scary. Sometimes I believe my wife and I are duals but that we haven’t figured out exactly how to completely trust each other yet. There are plenty of non-type issues for both of us- she was widowed and then lived alone for years, and I grew up without a mother. Those types of major life incidents definitely color our relationship. She’s also 14 years older than I am, and menopausal. We have a lot to work through together. I don’t believe that we have a conflicting relationship though. In fact, we often complement the weaknesses of each other. Since I met her, I had always been intrigued by her, but we took 15 years to get close. She says that we are soulmates. I know that word gets tossed around a lot, but for me to marry a woman so much older than I am, I honestly believe the same thing. I feel differently about her than any of my past relationships. It’s just that we are so close and yet so extremely different from each other. It puzzles me so much.

Fueled: your experiences are my own. My wife never stops working, even on a day off. She will barely sit still sometimes. I’m just like you. I need downtime. I get that I will just have to accept that certain things will never change. Like you, I don’t want them to change. I love my wife so much that I don’t even want the things about her that annoy me to change. Sometimes she is just a bitch. I’m learning from you that I need to just snarl back and stand my ground with her. That’s okay to do and it’s speaking a language she can understand. She doesn’t understand quietly dealing with stress inside my own head. She does understand when I get pissed and yell. She doesn’t like it, but she at least understands it. Thank you again, brother. You’re alright in my book ?
This is very true. I know this may seem like a dirty trick, but you can always try to appeal to her emotions. This stuff works a lot with SF types in general. If you're in an argument, instead of responding rationally, respond emotionally.

This is so strange. I was dating an INTP before and the fact that he remained calm made me more angry. So I'd push harder, say harsher things and throw bigger tantrums just to get an emotional response to them. It doesn't have to be anger, it just has to be something. I'd accuse him of being cold and apathetic. ESFJs feed off of others emotions, so in a fight, knowing how you feel can help anchor us, let us know how we need to behave. But when we have nothing to go off of, it makes things hard for us.

For example, let's say that I'm in a fight with you. I'm upset because you have done something to offend me

Now, if your emotional reaction is to be angry, then I can react to that in the same angry and fight it out.

If you say you're sorry and seem genuinely sorry, I can forgive you almost instantly.

But, if you try to stay cold and detached, I'm going to try to provoke you to get some kind of reaction. Anything. Maybe you'll laugh. Maybe you'll cry. Maybe you'll tell me that I'm a bitch and that will make me cry. But anything is better than you looking like you don't care that I'm upset.

So when your wife gets unreasonably angry over some trivial issue, I can guarantee you that, 100% she's trying to get an emotional reaction from you. So I would actually advice that you let loose and get angry, upset, even spiteful and vindictive. You can tell us you hate us. You can even try to emotionally manipulate us. We can deal with that. We thrive in emotionally charged situations. We can't deal with (what we perceive to be) apathy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
This is very true. I know this may seem like a dirty trick, but you can always try to appeal to her emotions. This stuff works a lot with SF types in general. If you're in an argument, instead of responding rationally, respond emotionally.

This is so strange. I was dating an INTP before and the fact that he remained calm made me more angry. So I'd push harder, say harsher things and throw bigger tantrums just to get an emotional response to them. It doesn't have to be anger, it just has to be something. I'd accuse him of being cold and apathetic. ESFJs feed off of others emotions, so in a fight, knowing how you feel can help anchor us, let us know how we need to behave. But when we have nothing to go off of, it makes things hard for us.

For example, let's say that I'm in a fight with you. I'm upset because you have done something to offend me

Now, if your emotional reaction is to be angry, then I can react to that in the same angry and fight it out.

If you say you're sorry and seem genuinely sorry, I can forgive you almost instantly.

But, if you try to stay cold and detached, I'm going to try to provoke you to get some kind of reaction. Anything. Maybe you'll laugh. Maybe you'll cry. Maybe you'll tell me that I'm a bitch and that will make me cry. But anything is better than you looking like you don't care that I'm upset.

So when your wife gets unreasonably angry over some trivial issue, I can guarantee you that, 100% she's trying to get an emotional reaction from you. So I would actually advice that you let loose and get angry, upset, even spiteful and vindictive. You can tell us you hate us. You can even try to emotionally manipulate us. We can deal with that. We thrive in emotionally charged situations. We can't deal with (what we perceive to be) apathy.
We do emotionally manipulate you. By acting like we don't care until you break down and tell us what the actual problem is.

But seriously... I'm not interested in fighting at all. But I'm also not going to allow you to force an apology out of me. Because although I might feel guilty, I would consider the apology worthless if you're trying to force it out of me, and admitting wrong-doing means allowing myself to be vulnerable which I won't do if I feel I'm in a hostile environment. I'm probably hoping that you'll calm down and give us a chance to make it up to you somehow.

If you're wrong then I'll respond rationally until you run out of bullshit to throw at me and we get to the truth of why you're upset (I might also laugh at how ridiculous you are). And if you disregard my rational arguments completely then I will mock you sarcastically. Perhaps Fe and Se are ESFJs' weapon of choice since those are their strong functions but they are INTP's weak points so we know they won't be very effective in our hands so don't expect us to act angry and emotional. The literally have no memory of myself ever losing my temper, so that means it hasn't happened since I was at least 4 years old.

I've never gotten in an intense fight with an ESFJ so maybe they could get me to cry. But with my parents (INTJ and ISTJ I think?), when we get in a fight, I often just shut down until they start despairing (or even break down) and then I feel bad and start to open up.

Teasing or making fun of me can work though. If I don't say anything back or look embarrassed, usually that means I admit messed up. Or you can try and get me talking logically about what I'm doing, and then I'll be forced to admit that I'm not being logical, usually that's because of an "inconvenient truth" type situation.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top