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From Van Der Hoop's Conscious Orientation
The extravert of feeling-type lives entirely for contacts of feeling with other people. His feeling attitudes assume a form which is generally approved in the community. As a rule, the life of the individual of feeling-type is not dominated by violent emotion or overwhelming moods: at the same time, in this particular type it is the influence of less differentiated kinds of feeling which tends to find expression. All the actions, thoughts, and observations of people of this type are, however, governed by the effort to establish relationships of feeling with other people. In this, feeling constantly seeks expression, and tries accordingly to arouse corresponding feelings in others, sometimes by means of almost imperceptible manifestations on their own part. The fine shading of their own emotional life enables them, moreover, to read the feelings of others from the smallest indications. In this case, their insight is not always consciously employed, but is more likely to be revealed in an adjustment of their own reactions to such feelings on the part of other people. As a result of this swift understanding of the attitudes of others, and of the immediate adjustment of their own reaction, extraverted feeling is extraordinarily valuable in social intercourse.

Human relationships form in the element in which the individual of feeling-type is most at home. He knows exactly how things ought to be among the people among whom he has grown up. As an extravert, he derives his sense of security from the forms of current in the external world. In his experience, feeling attitudes are things of objective value, and he finds support for this conception in the fact that others also possess these feelings, and that the life of the community is itself based on them. In such people there is a vital need to find corresponding feelings in others. They are exceedingly unhappy when out of touch with their environment, and must always seek to re-establish contact. If they meet with no sympathy, they will prefer strife to indifference, and since in this case also they know how to get at the feelings of others, they may be extremely unpleasant and harsh to those whom, as opponents and disturbers of their harmony, they would like to get rid of. They are first-class members of a community, seeking for themselves modes of life which others will approve. People and things to which their feelings are attached are particularly esteemed by them, such objects being singled out from the rest of the world. In their judgment of others this may easily lead to exaggeration, their tendency to idealization making them ready to overlook faults. For a woman of this type her husband is an exceptional being, and her children are regarded in the same way. This characteristic is likely to be found to some extent in everyone, where feeling is in question, but nowhere is it so marked as in people of feeling-type, because with them all relationships are conceived in somewhat ideal form. This means that anything which fits in with their feeling-life is strongly emphasized, and anything which does not do so is ignored. As a result, repression has much greater influence in these people than in representatives of any other type. Everything is repudiated, both in the loved one and in themselves, which might disturb the harmony which is necessary in to them. If, as a result, they manage to conceal from themselves certain marked characteristics, it may happen that even so these are to some extent apparent, and this gives an impression of something artificial in their harmony, and something a bit unreal in their idealism.

In children of this type, it is often possible to observe these traits at quite an early age. They are more taken up with their parents, or with others who attract them, than are other children. They idealize their parents, for instance, to a marked degree, and refuse to hear anything against them. They also try to live up to an ideal themselves. They like to be praised, and show a certain over-sensitivity if others do not meet them in this. They have a great need for love, and wan constant demonstrations from older people of their affection for them. At the same time, they very soon find out the soft spots in the feelings of the persons in their environment. While extraverted intuitive children want, as a general rule, to make an impression, with young people of this feeling-type this is more a means to establishing emotional contacts with others. Probably most children long to be their mother's or father's favourite, but nowhere is this felt to be such a vital question as with children of this type. They are apt, in their enthusiasm, to see in their ideal a combination of all that they value, and to fall into profound despair when they are unsuccessful in establishing the relationship that they desire. At a later age, also, the happiness of these people usually depends on some feeling-relationship with another person, or with several others. This type is particularly found among women, and family life certainly offers a woman opportunities of developing the happiest side of feeling. In the daily life of a woman of this type, the striking thing is not so much an intense expression of feeling as the remarkably appropriate and fine shading of this expression. Such a woman will never do or say anything to disturb the harmony of her environment, but, on the contrary, will create and reinforce it in all kinds of small ways. But, as a rule, she is also well able to wound if she feels so inclined. If harmony is not attained, she feels it much more than would others, and her life may appear to be quite broken up as a result. Where idealization is remote from reality, exaggerated expectations are often followed by great disappointment, and the individual of feeling-type will take this terribly to heart, so that it fills his whole horizon. "Himmelhoch jauchzend, zum Tode betrubt" ("Rejoicing to heaven, grieved unto death") is a particularly appropriate description of the state of mind of this type of person.

When anything happens which touches on feeling, an individual of this kind finds it impossible to be a simple onlooker: he helps to create the atmosphere by the way in which he gives himself up to every impression. Extraverts of this type often possess a peculiar gift, amounting to genius, for giving expression to what everyone is feeling at the time, for they are able to express the most varied shades of any feeling in such a plastic way that they readily arouse response in others. Hence there are found among the representatives of this type many famous preachers and priests, great orators, and gifted actors and actresses. Even in their outward appearance expresses the attitude of feeling which is most prevalent with them. This is true not only of the well-bred woman or girl, or of the clergy, but just as much of the demi-mondaine or of the gentleman come down in the world who may belong to the type.
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An individual of this type really only sees himself and his own life as reflected in his relationships with other people and in their opinions of himself. Hence he is very susceptible to praise and criticism. Encouragement will very quickly intensify and extend a reaction of feeling, while a comment or an objection which cannot be refuted may exert an exceedingly depressing influence on his spirits. Especially where some uncertainty might exist in regard to agreement between his own views and those generally current does he feel it absolutely necessary to prove to the world that his own feelings are right. While under the influence of powerful feelings, such people are able to exert great influence in their environment, particularly if they find support for their feelings in followers and onlookers. With most people of this type, however, feelings are expressed less in impressive actions than in the creation of a harmonious atmosphere. In their relationship with those around them they do their best to insist on friendliness and fair play, and they are usually conscientious and orderly even in small matters. Since they make similar demands on others, they frequently come into conflict with others, who do not always see the same necessity. Their punctiliousness may degenerate into pettiness, and occasionally such people may become very tiresome and pernickety about details. They will "go on" endlessly about something they feel to be wrong, and since they attach universal validity to the judgments of their feeling, they cannot stop trying to convince others. As a result, they may be tiring to those around them, in spite of their kindness and friendliness. In their persistence we see again the significance of will for this type. They may give themselves up with extraordinary self sacrifice and devotion to those whom they love, and to the purpose to which they have set themselves.
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There is no independence in the rational judgment of persons of feeling-type. It is not always easy to recognize this, because they often make good use of their reason: and, moreover, they are quite unaware themselves that in thinking they pick and choose entirely according to what fits in with their sentiments. It is usually not easy to make them see that the objectivity and criticism of thought is something quite different from moral judgment. In practical matters they can generally make good use of reason to work out and defend what they consider to be right, but they admit only those arguments which sccord with their feeling-attitude. This is probably the case with most people in questions of feeling; but nowhere is this effect of feeling so strong, and so many-sided, as in extraverts of feeling-type. For example, even in scientific problems they will take sides in a violently personal way.
 

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When anything happens which touches on feeling, an individual of this kind finds it impossible to be a simple onlooker: he helps to create the atmosphere by the way in which he gives himself up to every impression. Extraverts of this type often possess a peculiar gift, amounting to genius, for giving expression to what everyone is feeling at the time, for they are able to express the most varied shades of any feeling in such a plastic way that they readily arouse response in others
I love this, cuz I see that I do this all the time. thank you kindly!
 

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Anyone else notice that there are three pages of posts in the Introverted Feeling thread, but only five posts (including this one) in this thread? Think the Fi's are feeling misunderstood...? ;)
 

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I'm actually already discussing this in another thread but... I find it hard to grasp.

Especially where some uncertainty might exist in regard to agreement between his own views and those generally current does he feel it absolutely necessary to prove to the world that his own feelings are right.
Does this mean the need to make the possibly subjective objective? I.e. I read Fe users need "objective evidence" on ethical values; does this mean they are likely to see ethical values as something universal and objective -- and do Fi users then not see it this way? (do they see ethics as subjective? i.e. are all Fi users moral relativists?)
 

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There is no independence in the rational judgment of persons of feeling-type. It is not always easy to recognize this, because they often make good use of their reason: and, moreover, they are quite unaware themselves that in thinking they pick and choose entirely according to what fits in with their sentiments. It is usually not easy to make them see that the objectivity and criticism of thought is something quite different from moral judgment. In practical matters they can generally make good use of reason to work out and defend what they consider to be right, but they admit only those arguments which sccord with their feeling-attitude. This is probably the case with most people in questions of feeling; but nowhere is this effect of feeling so strong, and so many-sided, as in extraverts of feeling-type. For example, even in scientific problems they will take sides in a violently personal way.
That's interesting, though I would actually say that some of us are actually quite aware that this is a factor, though I'm not sure I can agree with it in its entirety, if I'm reading it the right way. (This concern has inspired me to check a lot of my ideas with thinkers, and, to put effort into developing my own thinking function as a fail-safe to make sure I don't end up becoming entirely situationally dependent). I find that, though my judgments are in relative to the situation/people/feelings involved, I still have my own angle on how I make judgments from the evidence gathered. I'm just inclined to say that, while my way of judging is by no means fully independent, I would find it a little odd to think that it has no independence at all. (Particularly considering, as I mentioned earlier, I do use at least some basic T to double-check things a lot of the time).
 

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Anyone else notice that there are three pages of posts in the Introverted Feeling thread, but only five posts (including this one) in this thread? Think the Fi's are feeling misunderstood...? ;)
No, we're just more interesting, so our preferred thought process garners more comments :p

Does this mean the need to make the possibly subjective objective? I.e. I read Fe users need "objective evidence" on ethical values; does this mean they are likely to see ethical values as something universal and objective -- and do Fi users then not see it this way? (do they see ethics as subjective? i.e. are all Fi users moral relativists?)
By "objective" it means outside the individual's mind, but it does not mean removed from a specific group of people or a specific context/situation (as in a society or culture). In that sense, it is not necessarily universal, and more than likely is not usually universal. I'd argue Fi is more "universal" because it's values are less dependent on a culture/society, but instead on inherent, fundamental concepts which arise via the unconscious mind. How these are interpreted for the individual is what becomes subjective.

Ethical belief systems are not type-related, IMO, and the connection you're making seems based on a misunderstanding of the terms involved. Any type may subscribe to one or invent their own for a variety of reasons.

That quote means Fe types seek consensus from others in order to affirm the validity of their feelings. They also seek to influence others in order to create a unity of feeling. They are seeking to MAKE their feelings as widespread or "universal" as they can, not to adapt to an existing universal code that surpasses time/culture. It's not that they think values are necessarily objective in the sense that no humans determine them or that there is no variation across time/culture, but that they think they originate outside of ONE individual. It's more like they are an agreement between people.

They can & often do the reverse though - adapt their feelings to the prevailing feeling of whatever group they choose to identify with. So yes, they want a harmony between their feelings and other people's feelings, but that has nothing to do with a universal code that is consistent across all contexts.
 

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No, we're just more interesting, so our preferred thought process garners more comments :p



By "objective" it means outside the individual's mind, but it does not mean removed from a specific group of people or a specific context/situation (as in a society or culture). In that sense, it is not necessarily universal, and more than likely is not usually universal. I'd argue Fi is more "universal" because it's values are less dependent on a culture/society, but instead on inherent, fundamental concepts which arise via the unconscious mind. How these are interpreted for the individual is what becomes subjective.

Ethical belief systems are not type-related, IMO, and the connection you're making seems based on a misunderstanding of the terms involved. Any type may subscribe to one or invent their own for a variety of reasons.

That quote means Fe types seek consensus from others in order to affirm the validity of their feelings. They also seek to influence others in order to create a unity of feeling. They are seeking to MAKE their feelings as widespread or "universal" as they can, not to adapt to an existing universal code that surpasses time/culture. It's not that they think values are necessarily objective in the sense that no humans determine them or that there is no variation across time/culture, but that they think they originate outside of ONE individual. It's more like they are an agreement between people.

They can & often do the reverse though - adapt their feelings to the prevailing feeling of whatever group they choose to identify with. So yes, they want a harmony between their feelings and other people's feelings, but that has nothing to do with a universal code that is consistent across all contexts.
I agree.
This is how I am in relation to anything said in this thread:

I'm introverted so my extraverted feeling is expressed a little differently. I've had a lot of emotional problems, but I don't express them in public. And I mean, as an introvert it's not very easy to make everyone feel the same way when I'm not even saying anything. I'm still aware of my introverted feelings. I'm just usually more concerned with the feelings of the people around me than my own and I make an effort to please others. I guess the most influence I have in a group is just smiling a lot and cooperating and stuff. In one on one situations it's just whatever. It depends on what the friend is like. I have a whole lot of different kinds of friends. I guess it's because I strive to get to know the people around me. I have been the catalyst for successes of a lot of people because of my positive influence. Or at least they ask ask me advice or something. But, some friends are more Fe than I am or whatever. I can be friends with just about anyone. But yeah.

I have an IFNP Fi friend and she's so caught up in her belief that everyone is so completely different than her and that no one understands her and all this stuff. I'm the only person that "understands" her. But I'm just like.. everyone has their own issues... you might just not know it because they don't go around telling everyone. And I started listing that each of my friends had problems. One friend's roommate committed suicide, one friend's mom died, one friend had cancer, one friend had been addicted to heroin. No one can understand things that people go through. No one can truly understand anyone. I know that most people don't have my way of thinking but that doesn't change my attitude towards myself or other people AT ALL.
 

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F Vs. T Balance

That's interesting, though I would actually say that some of us are actually quite aware that this is a factor, though I'm not sure I can agree with it in its entirety, if I'm reading it the right way. (This concern has inspired me to check a lot of my ideas with thinkers, and, to put effort into developing my own thinking function as a fail-safe to make sure I don't end up becoming entirely situationally dependent). I find that, though my judgments are in relative to the situation/people/feelings involved, I still have my own angle on how I make judgments from the evidence gathered. I'm just inclined to say that, while my way of judging is by no means fully independent, I would find it a little odd to think that it has no independence at all. (Particularly considering, as I mentioned earlier, I do use at least some basic T to double-check things a lot of the time).
Hello Crono,

I think we're in the same boat; I agree with the various points made to differing extents, from "very much so", to "not at all" (for example, "even in scientific problems they will take sides in a violently personal way." - I believe myself to be quite rational in my appreciation of science [because really, that's the only way it may be appropriately evaluated - fact is fact, regardless of one's feelings about it...]; however, I can become impassioned in instances when research is either poorly conducted, or misapplied, especially when it has deleterious effects on individuals or society as a whole). My F vs. T preference doesn't rank as strongly as others, so I think I'm generally less apt to fit the archetypal profile of an INFJ in certain regards (and I miss out on some of the "plus", as well as the "minus" as a result), but it also reminded me of the following:

I think it's also important for all of us to keep in mind for all type and function descriptions, that the descriptions are generally intended to approximate the idealized case (i.e., some examples provided theoretically may fit the description of an individual operating on close to 100% F [however much that's possible in humans - 0% T probably equals a very short lifespan!]), and experience teaches us that ideals are hard to find! Even for peer-reviewed, "expert" advice, I think it's also important to keep in mind that psychometric classification is a somewhat "soft" science (as in, often relying upon derived or "fuzzy" metrics, rather than directly measurable variables - "soft" in this context is obviously not meant to refer to quality or utility), and furthermore, it's has very real, personal implications. It seems likely that the researchers realize that more readily than anyone, and so it seems natural that some bias will "creep in" unintentionally now and again, regardless of the integrity and objectivity of the researcher. Furthermore, it seems that in the process of making the data "user-friendly" (turning measurements and statistics into words), the author's writing style may be misinterpreted, or may unintentionally seem to dismiss or emphasize certain observations. In essence, "something gets lost in translation".

Your statement about checking your F inclinations with the T crowd is really an exemplary technique. It seems that's precisely why we have two very different judgement functions that seem to operate independently. Each seems to offer the independent perspective the other function requires to maintain balance in the psyche...
 

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I am an enfj and I find it difficult to make blanket statements about the inherent right or wrong of a situation. I believe most opinions are subjective and often culturally influenced. I am flexible to other's perspectives. I won't necessarily change my stance, although I have in the past if someone's argument is stronger than my own. In general i find it's important to understand Why people believe the things they believe. For example: I can see and understand the benefit and reasons behind Polygamous marriages even though I myself can't imagine agreeing to that arrangement. I like to be open to others ideas and perspectives; NOT because I have no sense of self nor opinions of my own but that I am not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers. ( my 2 cents )
 

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I have an IFNP Fi friend and she's so caught up in her belief that everyone is so completely different than her and that no one understands her and all this stuff. I'm the only person that "understands" her. But I'm just like.. everyone has their own issues... you might just not know it because they don't go around telling everyone. And I started listing that each of my friends had problems. One friend's roommate committed suicide, one friend's mom died, one friend had cancer, one friend had been addicted to heroin. No one can understand things that people go through. No one can truly understand anyone. I know that most people don't have my way of thinking but that doesn't change my attitude towards myself or other people AT ALL.
I think what your friend is feeling isn't really an INFP thing or even an Fi thing. I have an ESTP friend who says things like that constantly. I have quite a bit of Fi myself, but I've never been one to go around saying that people don't understand me if something doesn't go my way or someone doesn't react the way I'd hoped. I think that might have to do with other things - possibly with an inability to see how much others understand. Sometimes people can feel exactly the same about something, but neither will understand that because they're both operating on different levels of communication or in different ways. It's always unexpected to me when people say that I'm not listening to them. I always try my hardest to be quiet and pay attention to every part of what someone says and ask questions to show that I'm interested in understanding every detail of what they say and paying attention to everything. But to others that can come off as me not pay attention to what they're saying. :( It's all about perception! :)
 

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The facial expression theory I dont fully believe for some reason...
I think it can influence and individual's feelings about how they're feeling or how they felt. But not a ton. Like with this example "An individual who is forced to smile during a social event will actually come to find the event more of an enjoyable experience." Yes, I think they were probably influenced by the smiling, but I don't think that it would measure up to an extreme difference. They couldn't possibly feel as happy as they would have if they'd been smiling because there was so much joy inside them, but I do think that it probably made their brain think that some parts of the situation were more positive than they would've thought if they were glowering at everything. There's also the possibility that, since they're smiling, it changed how people reacted to them. If they look irritated, people might not react as positively to them, but if they're smiling, people would probably react more positively when they were around them, and that would make the entire experience seem a bit more positive.
 

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For those of you who are already out of the home and living independent lives from your parents-childhood families, do you ever find yourself idolizing or idealizing those closest to you? Such as coworkers, friends, close family friends?

In dealing with major depression, the topic of self-esteem came up with a professional I've been speaking to about my deepest concerns (including fears) and I've been more mindful when it comes to my own self-esteem as a result of these questions from her.

Just yesterday I caught myself comparing myself to others again and thinking, "I wish I could be more like her, she's so logical, straight-forward and hard-working" or "she's such an all-around talented girl" or "he/she's so reliable". Something along those lines, but in doing this I realize I'm almost disempowering myself by giving what energy I DO have to praise and admire the traits and skills of others.

Hell, I need to conserve that energy and focus that love and feeling towards myself --- self-care, discipline, structure/routine to get my life on track!!
 

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I hear it's also true that mature Fi can start to look like Fe.
Hmmmmmm...wondering the same thing. Where did you read/learn this? I actually have thought something similar. Perhaps when Fe develops fully it would be the same thing.
 
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